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Who wouldn't have won the WDC in the 2019 Mercedes
Poll ended at Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:10 pm
Albon 6%  6%  [ 25 ]
Bottas 3%  3%  [ 14 ]
Gasly 8%  8%  [ 34 ]
Giovinazzi 9%  9%  [ 36 ]
Grosjean 9%  9%  [ 36 ]
Hulkenberg 5%  5%  [ 19 ]
Kubica 9%  9%  [ 37 ]
Kyvat 8%  8%  [ 32 ]
Leclerc 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Magnussen 8%  8%  [ 35 ]
Norris 5%  5%  [ 19 ]
Perez 4%  4%  [ 18 ]
Raikkonen 5%  5%  [ 20 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Russell 5%  5%  [ 20 ]
Sainz 3%  3%  [ 14 ]
Stroll 8%  8%  [ 34 ]
Verstappen 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Vettel 3%  3%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 417
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:10 pm 
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There are a lot of articles suggesting how many drivers would have won in the 2019 Mercedes. This does raise the question though, who *wouldn't* have won in the 2019 Mercedes?

And to stop this being a poll of answering the question "who is better than Bottas?" as he was second in the WDC, the poll will assume that the driver selected is the top scoring driver in the team (so their teammate would be worse than they are) You also have to assume that all other drivers are the same (so if Max Verstappen is in the Mercedes, his identical duplicate is in the Red Bull)

I assume this makes sense.

In short:

Selected drivers would:

Not win the the WDC in the Mercedes
Would be the top scoring driver at Mercedes
Be up against the same field (including a duplicate of themselves) that Mercedes faced.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:02 pm 
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Yuji Ide
Channock Nissany

Actually voted for:

Gasly
Giovinazzi
Grosjean
Kubica
Kvyat
Magnussen
Perez
Stroll

Unsure of Albon, gave him the benefit of the doubt.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Interesting way to pose the question who isn't good enough to win a WDC in the best car assuming they beat their teammate!

My guess you'll end up with the following on no votes and probably Kubica and Stroll with the most.

Bottas
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Verstappen
Vettel

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:09 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Yuji Ide
Channock Nissany

Actually voted for:

Gasly
Giovinazzi
Grosjean
Kubica
Kvyat
Magnussen
Perez
Stroll

Unsure of Albon, gave him the benefit of the doubt.


Voting for Perez will get people talking I’m sure :D

Other than that I agree with your list. I think Albon would win it, in my opinion he’s a solid driver who could end up at the level of Hulkenberg/Bottas/Perez, just being made to look ordinary by Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:30 pm 
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Who wouldn't have won The championship

A couple of questions.
Where is Hamilton? Would he be in the corresponding seat or would he of retired?
But. I think that Everyone except verstappen. Riccardo and leclerc.would not have won the title.

I'll expand.

The top 6 drivers in reality are hamilton. Bottas. Verstappen. Leclerc and vettel. With Riccardo in the Renault making the 6.
Take hamilton and we are left with the 5 others.
So in a alternate universe.
Verstappen in the merc. He probably would of dominated as hamilton did.
Leclerc would of won the championship. But not as easy as verstappen would of in the merc. A slow start in the first half. But he would have taken a stranglehold round Austria time and come away as champion.
Bottas. He wouldn't have won the the championship. Because he is a good number 2. And nothing more. (Eddie Irvine level) the only way he would have a outside chance of winning is if we had a hulkenberg troe of driver supporting him
Vettel. He was absolutely shockingly bad this last year. And if he was in the mercedes. Providing leclerc was in the ferrari still. Leclerc would of been fighting the chsmpionship with verstappen in the red bull. I would go as far as to say that vettel would only be the 3rd best driver.
Riccardo. Mr consistent and I think he would have had a hamilton type year where he would be on the podium on virtually every race. I think he would of taken the title.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:10 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
Bottas. He wouldn't have won the the championship. Because he is a good number 2. And nothing more. (Eddie Irvine level) the only way he would have a outside chance of winning is if we had a hulkenberg troe of driver supporting him

Bottas was second. That literally means he would have won the title if Hamilton hadn't been there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:22 pm 
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To be honest probably far fewer than people would expect. The difference made by a driver is always underestimated.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
To be honest probably far fewer than people would expect. The difference made by a driver is always underestimated.

I'm basically looking at it as anyone Bottas level or above would have won. My own list is:

Would Have Won
Verstappen
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Vettel
Bottas

(Probably Would Have Won)
Sainz
Perez
Hulk

Maaaaybe Would Have Won, But I Voted No
Russell

Nope
Albon
Gasly
Giovinazzi
Grosjean
Kubica
Kyvat
Magnussen
Norris
Raikkonen
Stroll

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:27 am 
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Bottas is a bit overrated nowadays as a consequence of Hamilton hype, so yeah, probably a lot of guys would have been able to match his level of performance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:48 am 
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Exediron wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Bottas. He wouldn't have won the the championship. Because he is a good number 2. And nothing more. (Eddie Irvine level) the only way he would have a outside chance of winning is if we had a hulkenberg troe of driver supporting him

Bottas was second. That literally means he would have won the title if Hamilton hadn't been there.


How dare you use common sense!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:54 am 
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Ruste13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Bottas. He wouldn't have won the the championship. Because he is a good number 2. And nothing more. (Eddie Irvine level) the only way he would have a outside chance of winning is if we had a hulkenberg troe of driver supporting him

Bottas was second. That literally means he would have won the title if Hamilton hadn't been there.


How dare you use common sense!!!

Ruined what could have been a perfectly good thread :lol:

It does show how different people perceive different drivers though. And the question above relies on the assumption that 18 of the 19 drivers on the list beat Bottas, although it's phrased such that that isn't actually a pertinent factor.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:58 am 
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The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:21 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"

No, it can't. This question assumes that Bottas' abilities remain below those of whoever he is teamed with.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:31 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"

No, I addressed that in the OP. The driver of the second Mercedes will be inferior to the driver replacing Hamilton, the other 18 cars they are up against are the same field faced by Hamilton Bottas in 2019 (so the driver is replaced by an identical duplicate due a freak transporter accident in a Star Trek / F1 crossover episode) So Leclerc-Mercedes is up against Leclerc-Ferrari, for instance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:31 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"

No, it can't. This question assumes that Bottas' abilities remain below those of whoever he is teamed with.


I think the point is Bottas did not finish 2nd by a big margin so anyone that's not at least very very close to as good as Bottas would have been beaten by Verstappen or a Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"

No, it can't. This question assumes that Bottas' abilities remain below those of whoever he is teamed with.


I think the point is Bottas did not finish 2nd by a big margin so anyone that's not at least very very close to as good as Bottas would have been beaten by Verstappen or a Ferrari.

He was two race wins ahead of Verstappen, so it wasn't that narrow. It wasn't like 2018 where Bottas giving Hamilton the win at Russia dropped him from 3rd to 5th in the championship.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:43 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"

No, it can't. This question assumes that Bottas' abilities remain below those of whoever he is teamed with.


I think the point is Bottas did not finish 2nd by a big margin so anyone that's not at least very very close to as good as Bottas would have been beaten by Verstappen or a Ferrari.

He was two race wins ahead of Verstappen, so it wasn't that narrow. It wasn't like 2018 where Bottas giving Hamilton the win at Russia dropped him from 3rd to 5th in the championship.


Not but at the top level that's pretty narrow. Wouldn't take much of a drop off in ability to lose that advantage. And your team mate would be worse as well and likely unable to take points of Verstappen and the Ferrari's.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:10 pm 
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Lets not forget, Bottas would have won 7 of the first 10 races without Hamilton in the field. The other 3 races, podiums. WDC over. Although he would have only won 2 of the second 10 races (which he won in reality) he would still end the year with 9 races wins and 70+ clear of Verstappen.

The gap was 48 points to Verstappen but if you remove Hamilton, Bottas gains 5 wins and Verstappen just one so it would be closer to 70 points. He would have won it with 3 races to spare.

So the question is who would score about 70 points less than Bottas over a season?

Stroll, Gasly (Red Bull form), Kubica, Grosjean, K-mag would all struggle to win the title for various reasons.

Giovinazzi, Raikkonen, Albon and Kyvat I could all see going missing in enough of the early races (when Mercedes was dominant in races wins but only by a fine margin) to not build the big lead to win the WDC.

The rest of them I feel would all win it quite comfortably.

Its worth noting that Bottas himself probably would not have won the title on the form of the last 15 races too. He would have won the first 5 races with no Hamilton and that is the key factor to his title bid.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Lets not forget, Bottas would have won 7 of the first 10 races without Hamilton in the field. The other 3 races, podiums. WDC over. Although he would have only won 2 of the second 10 races (which he won in reality) he would still end the year with 9 races wins and 70+ clear of Verstappen.

The gap was 48 points to Verstappen but if you remove Hamilton, Bottas gains 5 wins and Verstappen just one so it would be closer to 70 points. He would have won it with 3 races to spare.

So the question is who would score about 70 points less than Bottas over a season?

Stroll, Gasly (Red Bull form), Kubica, Grosjean, K-mag would all struggle to win the title for various reasons.

Giovinazzi, Raikkonen, Albon and Kyvat I could all see going missing in enough of the early races (when Mercedes was dominant in races wins but only by a fine margin) to not build the big lead to win the WDC.

The rest of them I feel would all win it quite comfortably.

Its worth noting that Bottas himself probably would not have won the title on the form of the last 15 races too. He would have won the first 5 races with no Hamilton and that is the key factor to his title bid.


I think you'd have to take away the points that Hamilton took off Verstappen on the occasions that Bottas beat Hamilton. Although doing the calculations that's only worth about 10 points.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:05 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
The question can be condensed to "who is worse than Bottas?"

No, I addressed that in the OP. The driver of the second Mercedes will be inferior to the driver replacing Hamilton, the other 18 cars they are up against are the same field faced by Hamilton Bottas in 2019 (so the driver is replaced by an identical duplicate due a freak transporter accident in a Star Trek / F1 crossover episode) So Leclerc-Mercedes is up against Leclerc-Ferrari, for instance.

Which brings us to one of the cases being Bottas in Hamiton's car and another Bottas in Bottas'car. I think the Bottas in Hamilton's car being slightly better than the Bottas in Bottas' car would win it ! Anyway we need an odd number of annual races to be sure to avoid joint WDC

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:51 pm 
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I went through the championship and for every time that Hamilton finished ahead of Bottas (when both finished) I moved Hamilton behind Bottas and recalculated all the positions. It only affected the top 5 drivers as the only time Hamilton didn't finish in the top 5 were the two races Bottas retired:






WDCDriverChangePoints
1Bottas+61397
2Hamilton-108305
3Verstappen+14292
4Leclerc+9273
5Vettel+24264


Bottas gains 6 wins, Verstappen gains 2 wins and Vettel gains 3 wins.

Edit: accidentally gave Verstappen Vettel's Monaco win - have edited the table to reflect it.


Last edited by Alienturnedhuman on Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:12 pm 
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I do not agree with this logic, because if Hamilton wasn't there, then god knows what would have happened frankly. Whoever was Bottas's team mate could have won races, etc. Why is it a given that in a situation that Hamilton retired in 2018, the 2019 WDC would have panned exactly the same? It is impossible that they would have the same results as we had last year. So to say that Bottas would have won the WDC - or the opposite - is without much substance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:31 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
I do not agree with this logic, because if Hamilton wasn't there, then god knows what would have happened frankly. Whoever was Bottas's team mate could have won races, etc. Why is it a given that in a situation that Hamilton retired in 2018, the 2019 WDC would have panned exactly the same? It is impossible that they would have the same results as we had last year. So to say that Bottas would have won the WDC - or the opposite - is without much substance.

Wait what?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:29 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I went through the championship and for every time that Hamilton finished ahead of Bottas (when both finished) I moved Hamilton behind Bottas and recalculated all the positions. It only affected the top 5 drivers as the only time Hamilton didn't finish in the top 5 were the two races Bottas retired:






WDCDriverChangePoints
1Bottas+61397
2Hamilton-108305
3Verstappen+21299
4Leclerc+9273
5Vettel+17257


Bottas gains 6 wins, Verstappen gains 3 wins and Vettel gains 2 wins.


Interesting table. I said earlier Bottas would gain 5 and Max 1. I was incorrect. But I think its 6 and 2? Max only finished P2 twice all year.

I think if you delete Hamilton completely then Bottas would win by about 65 points.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:56 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Lets not forget, Bottas would have won 7 of the first 10 races without Hamilton in the field. The other 3 races, podiums. WDC over. Although he would have only won 2 of the second 10 races (which he won in reality) he would still end the year with 9 races wins and 70+ clear of Verstappen.

The gap was 48 points to Verstappen but if you remove Hamilton, Bottas gains 5 wins and Verstappen just one so it would be closer to 70 points. He would have won it with 3 races to spare.

So the question is who would score about 70 points less than Bottas over a season?

Stroll, Gasly (Red Bull form), Kubica, Grosjean, K-mag would all struggle to win the title for various reasons.

Giovinazzi, Raikkonen, Albon and Kyvat I could all see going missing in enough of the early races (when Mercedes was dominant in races wins but only by a fine margin) to not build the big lead to win the WDC.

The rest of them I feel would all win it quite comfortably.

Its worth noting that Bottas himself probably would not have won the title on the form of the last 15 races too. He would have won the first 5 races with no Hamilton and that is the key factor to his title bid.

Bottas would not have won in Bahrain as Vettel would not have spun under pressure from Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:59 pm 
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Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:10 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:47 am 
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JN23 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.

Basically though the poll doesn't really tell us anything, we don't know what percentage vote for or against a driver.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:53 am 
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I basically said that Verstappen and Leclerc were the only two who would have won the title if they were promoted to the number 1 Merc seat.

I don't know about today's Ricciardo. He was only tested against championship material (Vettel) for one year in 2014. Daniel did beat Max in 2016 (Yeah, I know Max spent the first four races in the Toro Rosso) & 2017. Still Max thumped him pretty hard in 2018, and yeah I know that Daniel had 8 retirements to Max's four. Max did usually have the measure of Daniel when they both were running at the end.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.

Basically though the poll doesn't really tell us anything, we don't know what percentage vote for or against a driver.

Since Stroll, Giovinazzi and Gasly are all on the same number of votes (17 at time of writing), I think it's a good assumption that 17 people have voted. I struggle to picture anyone not voting for any of them.

... although with that said, at least one person has clearly not selected Kubica. Who knows what else might have gone on.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:29 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I went through the championship and for every time that Hamilton finished ahead of Bottas (when both finished) I moved Hamilton behind Bottas and recalculated all the positions. It only affected the top 5 drivers as the only time Hamilton didn't finish in the top 5 were the two races Bottas retired:






WDCDriverChangePoints
1Bottas+61397
2Hamilton-108305
3Verstappen+21299
4Leclerc+9273
5Vettel+17257


Bottas gains 6 wins, Verstappen gains 3 wins and Vettel gains 2 wins.


Interesting table. I said earlier Bottas would gain 5 and Max 1. I was incorrect. But I think its 6 and 2? Max only finished P2 twice all year.

I think if you delete Hamilton completely then Bottas would win by about 65 points.

Accidentally gave Verstappen Vettel's Monaco win, have updated the table to reflect it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:23 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I do not agree with this logic, because if Hamilton wasn't there, then god knows what would have happened frankly. Whoever was Bottas's team mate could have won races, etc. Why is it a given that in a situation that Hamilton retired in 2018, the 2019 WDC would have panned exactly the same? It is impossible that they would have the same results as we had last year. So to say that Bottas would have won the WDC - or the opposite - is without much substance.

Wait what?

What is confusing you exactly?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:46 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.

Basically though the poll doesn't really tell us anything, we don't know what percentage vote for or against a driver.

Since Stroll, Giovinazzi and Gasly are all on the same number of votes (17 at time of writing), I think it's a good assumption that 17 people have voted. I struggle to picture anyone not voting for any of them.

... although with that said, at least one person has clearly not selected Kubica. Who knows what else might have gone on.


I didn't vote, but apart from Stroll, Giovinazzi and Kubica (may be Russell, whom I can't rank, thanks to Williams), I think every other driver would have had a chance to win a championship driving the Mercedes (yes, even Magnussen). Gasly, assuming Marko wouldn't have been following him to the Mercedes team, would show he is not worse than a good half of the field...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:09 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I do not agree with this logic, because if Hamilton wasn't there, then god knows what would have happened frankly. Whoever was Bottas's team mate could have won races, etc. Why is it a given that in a situation that Hamilton retired in 2018, the 2019 WDC would have panned exactly the same? It is impossible that they would have the same results as we had last year. So to say that Bottas would have won the WDC - or the opposite - is without much substance.

Wait what?

What is confusing you exactly?

This is a hypothetical thread for people to put forward their cases for who wouldn't be able to win the championship in the Merc. Of course Hamilton not being there would affect the results, but that's kind of the whole point of the thread. If we knew what would happen, then we wouldn't need to hold a Formula 1 championship in the first place.

We have had hundreds of threads of this nature on the forum (eg, what would happen if driver X drove for Team A instead of Team B) - these kind of discussions are one of the main points of a discussion forum - I don't understand how you can suddenly declare a whole topic of thread as being anti logic!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:14 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.

Basically though the poll doesn't really tell us anything, we don't know what percentage vote for or against a driver.

Since Stroll, Giovinazzi and Gasly are all on the same number of votes (17 at time of writing), I think it's a good assumption that 17 people have voted. I struggle to picture anyone not voting for any of them.

... although with that said, at least one person has clearly not selected Kubica. Who knows what else might have gone on.

Yes that's one way of trying to ascertain who voted and who didn't but still can be a little bit imprecise like you ventured.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:29 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.


Okay, so the %s are effectively meaningless. It's the order in the table that shows who we think are the worst drivers in F1..


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Looking at the results so far, with 169 votes in, Stroll, Kubica etc are top with 9%?! Does that mean 91% think they would have won the title? Or is the poll not working as it should?


9% is the number of votes they have as a percentage of the total, not that 91% would think they'd win it.

The more votes a driver have, the more people think they wouldn't have won the title.

Basically though the poll doesn't really tell us anything, we don't know what percentage vote for or against a driver.

Since Stroll, Giovinazzi and Gasly are all on the same number of votes (17 at time of writing), I think it's a good assumption that 17 people have voted. I struggle to picture anyone not voting for any of them.

... although with that said, at least one person has clearly not selected Kubica. Who knows what else might have gone on.


I didn't vote, but apart from Stroll, Giovinazzi and Kubica (may be Russell, whom I can't rank, thanks to Williams), I think every other driver would have had a chance to win a championship driving the Mercedes (yes, even Magnussen). Gasly, assuming Marko wouldn't have been following him to the Mercedes team, would show he is not worse than a good half of the field...

Gasly beating Bottas is debatable but what's amusing is the thought of Mercedes running a line up of Bottas and Gasly and various other line ups of Bottas and another in their title challenging team, good luck with that in 2017 and 2018.

How top teams operate is to have at least one tier 1 driver, of course I understand the debate but the practicality is that a tier 2 driver will never have a top team built around him and have the luxury of better drivers being handicapped with inferior cars, it only ever works if you can build a dominant car.

A point of interest for me is how many wins might Hamilton have had driving for Ferrari, you can theorise as many as 9 wins and then the Mercedes is not looking as quite as dominant, we soon forget the dominance of Ferrari after the summer break until the directives kicked in.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I do not agree with this logic, because if Hamilton wasn't there, then god knows what would have happened frankly. Whoever was Bottas's team mate could have won races, etc. Why is it a given that in a situation that Hamilton retired in 2018, the 2019 WDC would have panned exactly the same? It is impossible that they would have the same results as we had last year. So to say that Bottas would have won the WDC - or the opposite - is without much substance.

Wait what?

What is confusing you exactly?

This is a hypothetical thread for people to put forward their cases for who wouldn't be able to win the championship in the Merc. Of course Hamilton not being there would affect the results, but that's kind of the whole point of the thread. If we knew what would happen, then we wouldn't need to hold a Formula 1 championship in the first place.

We have had hundreds of threads of this nature on the forum (eg, what would happen if driver X drove for Team A instead of Team B) - these kind of discussions are one of the main points of a discussion forum - I don't understand how you can suddenly declare a whole topic of thread as being anti logic!!


Then you missed my point or I didn't present it very well. I didn't insult your thread by declaring it anti-logic, just pointed out that if you remove Hamilton it does not mean that the races would pan out exactly the same way. You can still have a hypothetical discussion about it obviously.

But it would depend who would be Bottas's co-driver. All I'm saying is that it is not a defacto "if Hamilton didn't finish first in Bahrain then Bottas would have won" scenario, we need to establish if Bottas would be better than his team mate. So if - say - Ricciardo was his team mate I'd say that Bottas would still be second, I feel that by saying "I went through the championship and for every time that Hamilton finished ahead of Bottas (when both finished) I moved Hamilton behind Bottas and recalculated all the positions" you are not really covering that situation.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:58 pm 
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so basically turns into a reverse rate the drivers - flip it and you end up with

Verstappen
Leclerc

Ricciardo

Vettel
Bottas

Sainz

Raikkonen
Perez

Russell
Norris
Hulkenberg

Albon

Magnussen
Kyvat
Grosjean

Kubica
Gasly

Stroll
Giovinazzi

Which makes for some interesting judgements. It's a small sample but as far as people who have votes goes "we"

are rating Vettel and Bottas as equals..
must be pretty convinced by what we've seen of Russell
think HAAS should be looking at options!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:19 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
so basically turns into a reverse rate the drivers - flip it and you end up with

Verstappen
Leclerc

Ricciardo

Vettel
Bottas

Sainz

Raikkonen
Perez

Russell
Norris
Hulkenberg

Albon

Magnussen
Kyvat
Grosjean

Kubica
Gasly

Stroll
Giovinazzi

Which makes for some interesting judgements. It's a small sample but as far as people who have votes goes "we"

are rating Vettel and Bottas as equals..
must be pretty convinced by what we've seen of Russell
think HAAS should be looking at options!

Yeah it ends up not being too different to rate the driver threads.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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