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One thing people forget about Schumacher is that he made generally one big unforced error per season (outside of the years he was cruising to the title) even when he was quite experienced.

1994. Hit the wall and DNF'd his car before he took Hill out
1995. San Marino, spun out.
1996. Monaco into the wall
1997. He had 3 race ending collisions
1998. Lost his wing twice at Monaco. Rear ended DC at Spa (arguably not his fault)
1999. Went into the wall of champions
2000. No individual error but went out at turn 1 twice in collisions.
2001.
2002.
2003. Spun out of Brazil. Lost his wing at Malaysia and Japan.
2004. Monaco tunnel incident. Spun out in China/Monza.
2005. Collided/Spun to 4 DNFs
2006. Spun out in Australia. Lost his wing in Hungary

2010-2012 isn't the same Schumacher so no need to bring that in.

Simple answer:
Schumi before 1st retirement was better than Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and any other current driver. In my opinion.

Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Questions like this are always difficult because it basically boils down to whether you feel that driver X would have made the same mistakes that Vettel has. Take Germany, for example. Most pundits and drivers say that Vettel made a very small error but unfortunately the location and conditions gave it big consequences. The odds of another driver making the same mistake are small, but there again the odds of Vettel making the same mistake were he to do it all again are equally small. And if we look at yesterday then I'm pretty confident that Schumacher wouldn't have been averse to trying to muscle past Verstappen in the same way that Vettel did. He wasn't exactly known for being timid.

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break? Well, ultimately I think peak Schumacher was better than either Vettel or Hamilton. I think Hamilton may have found it harder to pass him in Russia, for example, so that race may have had a different outcome And I think Schumacher had the talent to pull rabbits out of hats so yes I think he'd be doing better now in either the Ferrari or the Mercedes than both of the incumbents. I don't think he'd have had some of Hamilton's lackluster qualifying or races in the beginning of the season, for example, and I think he'd have had a better qualifying record vs Kimi (or Bottas, for that matter). I think he'd have won the title whichever car he was in.

Who was saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton before the summer break?

The narrative would be more like Vettel had the better car up until the summer break and would have been leading the WDC if not for his own mistakes, the lock up in Baku, hitting Bottas' car in France, crashing from the lead in Germany and the poor wet qualifying in Hungary.

I think a lot of people considered Vettel to have had the better half until Germany at least. A number of people thought Hamilton was a bit subdued at the beginning of the season, to be fair.

I wouldn't disagree that he made a slow start but it's easy to forget the lost win to the VSC in the first race and then the gearbox penalty the very next race, he convincingly won on merit in Spain which on merit would have been 2 wins in the first 5 races, such high standards are needed to be met it seems?

You've trimmed this back to before Germany now whereas before you said before the summer break so you've kind of moved the goalpost to question my own post, nevertheless as an overview before Germany Vettel was clearly looking the better bet but that was also related to the Ferrari looking to be the better car, before Germany AMUS had it 6-4 to Ferrari.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/

Well I think my actual words were before the summer - you added the word "break" but I'd consider Germany to have taken place in the summer. I'm not trimming anything back or moving any goalposts and I think you're confusing yourself by adding in parameters of your own making. As to high standards - wouldn't you say that's a given when discussing who has been the best driver? BTW, saying he had a slow start isn't the same as saying he was terrible but you can't deny he wasn't reaching the same high standards either in qualifying or the races that he is now?

So from the rest of your post and with that misunderstanding out of the way I don't think we're disagreeing all that much there actually

People remember the bad but before the summer many were saying that Vettel was driving better than Hamilton and were praising him for his performances this year. Since then his season has gone from bad to worse but before then he was fairly universally praised.

So would Schumacher have enjoyed the same bad run as Vettel since the summer break?

No you actually mentioned the summer break.



This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

No you actually mentioned the summer break.



This is clearly your context which included several errors from Vettel.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

There are two separate things here. One is me saying that before the summer Vettel was being talked about as having the better season.

The other is saying that after the summer break he had a bad run. Sorry if the wording is confusing but they are separate.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

The bad run started before the summer break, the crash from the lead in Germany was before the summer break, it's clear you were defining that Vettel had been the better driver up to the summer break.

I just think there's easily enough variables in F1 that not only could Schumacher have won or lost, but so could have a number of other drivers including Vettel. Which year of form do you take for the driver? When and where will the luck strike and who will it favour?

This is a one of Hamilton's best years vs an iffy Vettel year. And what do you suppose would happen if Hamilton had an iffy year and Vettel put in one of his best years?

If you put Schumacher in the Ferrari or the Mercedes and assume he's in good form, then up to this point in the season against another great driver in one of their great years, he could indeed be ahead or behind. As stated earlier, I'd hardly feel confident in putting 1998 Schumacher up against Hamilton/Merc right now.

But it's just fanciful bar talk, isn't it. Schumacher might be far less effective these days and Hamilton in Schumi's days for much the same reason. One loves to test and the other is averse to it.

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Is it an iffy Vettel year or is it his level given that you could call 2016-18 has all being iffy years?

Well I don't think Vettel did much wrong in 2017 and there wasn't much between him and Hamilton in that season.
.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

It's amazing how fuzz people's memories can be. Hamilton CLEARLY out-performed Vettel last season. This year has been even more clear but to say Vettel matched Hamilton's performance last season is inaccurate.

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

And still "people" voted Vettel as the most "driver off the day" in 2017, so perhaps he didn't do so bad https://www.formula1.com/en/results/awa ... -2017.html

Driver of the day voting sometimes doesn't say the whole story. If Hamilton wins from pol but Vettel has to slice through the crowd to get to the podium, guess who will get the DOTD vote. It is a bit unfair to the leading driver, as they can't do any "heroics" on track really.

Yeah, you can count on fans votes to be the most objective.

Since we all like to play the what if game; in your opinion do you think that Michael Schumacher at 31 years of age would have won while driving this years Ferrari?

You know what gets me is that whenever Hamilton wins a poll it's because it's a British site full of Hamilton fans.

Who says that?

Depends how dominant Merc are for the remaining races.

I'd rather not say, the poll result was accused of being biased.

The fact that Hamilton doesn't win that many DoTD awards despite the amount of races he wins I think shows how balanced the forum actually is.

I fully appreciate that, I'm just saying that if the forum was Hamilton biased then Hamilton winning would automatically ensure him the DoTD.