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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:

No he didn't throw a tantrum but i'm intrigued what you mean about him having problems?


I think he was very open that after dominating the regulations and winning 4 titles in a row he didn't adjust to the change in regulations.
<https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/116015/vettel-says-2014-car-doesnt-suit-him>

I've never read or heard he throw a tantrum at the Merc domination in 2014-2017 like other drivers kept talking about him and the Red Bull
during the Red Bull domination, which IMO was much less dominant.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
To be honest I can't remember, all I remember is Hamilton feeling the need to tell the team that Rosberg hit him and then the initial claim from Lauda that Hamilton hit Rosberg's car when he tried to rejoin the track which damaged Rosberg's car.


Says here he blamed Nico anyway. http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/167 ... -collision

Read carefully he thinks the cars collided when Hamilton tried to return to the track as in the second incident so he's somewhat confused, but yes he thought it was Rosberg's fault but he wasn't sure.

For myself I remembered him thinking the cars hit one another when Hamilton was trying to return to the track and I'm sure he said in that instance on the TV that Lewis hit Nico.


I thought he did hit him when he returned to the track but just checked and it's unclear and I can't find a Lewis onboard but frankly who cares once you know why he was off track in the first place. I think it's clear enough what they saw in Austria...

Quote:
Wolff told German television that both brakes on Rosberg's car "were at the end."

"He (Rosberg) didn't give him enough space. It's a pity, it shouldn't happen," Wolff said.

Team director Niki Lauda also blamed Rosberg, saying, "Nico had tried at all cost to prevent Lewis from overtaking with non-functioning brakes."

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/lewis- ... 86816.html


Why ask about Austria anyway?

I think I just remember the bit were Lauda said that Hamilton hit Rosberg's car, I guess that would have been before he double checked?


He might have been talking about when Lewis rejoined and the live feed did make it look like he clipped Nico's wing when he re-entered the track and Nico's wing blew. I don't think he actually did but it looked it on the feed so maybe Niki saw that but I've no idea obviously.

But the first contact, the important one, they both blamed Nico. Same with Spa, only Spain did they think Lewis contributed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:42 am 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:

No he didn't throw a tantrum but i'm intrigued what you mean about him having problems?


I think he was very open that after dominating the regulations and winning 4 titles in a row he didn't adjust to the change in regulations.
<https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/116015/vettel-says-2014-car-doesnt-suit-him>

I've never read or heard he throw a tantrum at the Merc domination in 2014-2017 like other drivers kept talking about him and the Red Bull
during the Red Bull domination, which IMO was much less dominant.

I like the wording how Vettel dominated the regulations rather than Red Bull themselves. :)

Regarding him not complaining about the Mercedes domination of 2014-2016, notice I left off 2017, a car slower than the 2010 and 2011 Red Bulls, imagine the flak he would have got after he benefited himself from the Red Bull years?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:58 am 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:

No he didn't throw a tantrum but i'm intrigued what you mean about him having problems?


I think he was very open that after dominating the regulations and winning 4 titles in a row he didn't adjust to the change in regulations.
<https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/116015/vettel-says-2014-car-doesnt-suit-him>

I've never read or heard he throw a tantrum at the Merc domination in 2014-2017 like other drivers kept talking about him and the Red Bull
during the Red Bull domination, which IMO was much less dominant.

I like the wording how Vettel dominated the regulations rather than Red Bull themselves. :)

Regarding him not complaining about the Mercedes domination of 2014-2016, notice I left off 2017, a car slower than the 2010 and 2011 Red Bulls, imagine the flak he would have got after he benefited himself from the Red Bull years?

Whatever you might imagine, it's still true to say that he hasn't moaned about the Mercs in the way that his rivals did about the Red Bulls when he was winning. No idea what point you are trying to make about the 2017 Mercedes apparently being slower than the 2010 and 2011 Red Bulls, or why it's even in a conversation about whether Vettel threw a tantrum.

Anyway, it's to a degree subjective of course but there is an argument to say that Vettel did dominate during his Red Bull years. Of course the car plays a part but it's undeniable that he got much more out of the car than Webber, to the extent that in Webber's hands the Red Bull merely looked good, not dominant, and innumerable articles were written at the time on how his driving style in particular was able to take best advantage out of the cars of the time. Without him there it's debatable whether Red Bull would have won both titles four years on the trot, something which certainly can't be said about the Mercs of 2014-2016 (but not 2017), so I think he can at least share in the accolades on domination.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:

No he didn't throw a tantrum but i'm intrigued what you mean about him having problems?


I think he was very open that after dominating the regulations and winning 4 titles in a row he didn't adjust to the change in regulations.
<https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/116015/vettel-says-2014-car-doesnt-suit-him>

I've never read or heard he throw a tantrum at the Merc domination in 2014-2017 like other drivers kept talking about him and the Red Bull
during the Red Bull domination, which IMO was much less dominant.

I like the wording how Vettel dominated the regulations rather than Red Bull themselves. :)

Regarding him not complaining about the Mercedes domination of 2014-2016, notice I left off 2017, a car slower than the 2010 and 2011 Red Bulls, imagine the flak he would have got after he benefited himself from the Red Bull years?


Surely one is as right as the other. I didn't see Webber making the car loo dominant.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:

No he didn't throw a tantrum but i'm intrigued what you mean about him having problems?


I think he was very open that after dominating the regulations and winning 4 titles in a row he didn't adjust to the change in regulations.
<https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/116015/vettel-says-2014-car-doesnt-suit-him>

I've never read or heard he throw a tantrum at the Merc domination in 2014-2017 like other drivers kept talking about him and the Red Bull
during the Red Bull domination, which IMO was much less dominant.

I like the wording how Vettel dominated the regulations rather than Red Bull themselves. :)

Regarding him not complaining about the Mercedes domination of 2014-2016, notice I left off 2017, a car slower than the 2010 and 2011 Red Bulls, imagine the flak he would have got after he benefited himself from the Red Bull years?


Surely one is as right as the other. I didn't see Webber making the car loo dominant.


+1


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely one is as right as the other. I didn't see Webber making the car loo dominant.
They usually go before the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqy4uClJcs4 ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Surely one is as right as the other. I didn't see Webber making the car loo dominant.
They usually go before the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqy4uClJcs4 ;)

Or in the car!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:40 am 
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Interesting article I came across regarding vettel and his form of late. Didn’t want to start a new thread as this one pretty much covers the topic at hand.

https://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2018/09/04/f1-vettel-still-prone-to-errors-despite-past-f1-successes/

“Vettel insisted he had not been at fault in the collision but Hamilton pointed out that he and Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen engaged in an identical exchange later in the race with both drivers exiting the chicane cleanly.”

Both vettel and ferrari have made their share of mistakes this year. At times it seems both ferrari and vettel have forgotten how to win a championship. I really expected more from vettel this year myself and it seems the pressure might just be getting to him.

Season isn’t over yet but maybe the despiration is setting in ?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:09 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article I came across regarding vettel and his form of late. Didn’t want to start a new thread as this one pretty much covers the topic at hand.

https://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2018/09/04/f1-vettel-still-prone-to-errors-despite-past-f1-successes/

“Vettel insisted he had not been at fault in the collision but Hamilton pointed out that he and Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen engaged in an identical exchange later in the race with both drivers exiting the chicane cleanly.”

Both vettel and ferrari have made their share of mistakes this year. At times it seems both ferrari and vettel have forgotten how to win a championship. I really expected more from vettel this year myself and it seems the pressure might just be getting to him.

Season isn’t over yet but maybe the despiration is setting in ?

He's demonstrated a cool head under pressure before, though, so not sure that's necessarily it. But I agree he messed up in Monza and needs to take a look at himself. Just a guess but I think he was more worried about Kimi than he was Hamilton and seemed to forget he was even there. Seemed a very strange line for him to take as you'd think he would have tried to force Hamilton wide on the corner approach instead of giving him all the room in the world.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:21 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article I came across regarding vettel and his form of late. Didn’t want to start a new thread as this one pretty much covers the topic at hand.

https://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2018/09/04/f1-vettel-still-prone-to-errors-despite-past-f1-successes/

“Vettel insisted he had not been at fault in the collision but Hamilton pointed out that he and Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen engaged in an identical exchange later in the race with both drivers exiting the chicane cleanly.”

Both vettel and ferrari have made their share of mistakes this year. At times it seems both ferrari and vettel have forgotten how to win a championship. I really expected more from vettel this year myself and it seems the pressure might just be getting to him.

Season isn’t over yet but maybe the despiration is setting in ?

He's demonstrated a cool head under pressure before, though, so not sure that's necessarily it. But I agree he messed up in Monza and needs to take a look at himself. Just a guess but I think he was more worried about Kimi than he was Hamilton and seemed to forget he was even there. Seemed a very strange line for him to take as you'd think he would have tried to force Hamilton wide on the corner approach instead of giving him all the room in the world.


He's kept a cool head before when challenging/winning titles? When?

At RBR he expected wins and even collided with his team mate. Refused to take responsibility.
Last year.. where Lewis apparently break tested him... I don't need to repeat how that all went. Took him ages to finally accept responsibility and again.. we all know he was forced to do so because of telemetry (fact) evidence.

Last season we witnessed an even stevens war. No longer was it Merc V Merc. It was Lewis V Vettel (like this season). And again we are seeing the team/driver making the least mistakes sitting on top. Lewis had his off season where he made a lot of mistakes, the year where Button outscored Lewis. Lewis was constantly criticised for pressure, head set etc - and rightly so.

Problem with Vettel, he's a bit like Max. It's an all or nothing attitude unless he has no choice but to play the long game (by finishing as high as possible after a problem just like Italy).

The footage you can see clearly which car lost grip in that split last second causing a collision. Vettel is just angry that he was the only one that lost out.

Funny thing is Lewis has done it at times by refusing to admit who was at fault. They all do it. Vettel though, needs to start thinking about bringing the car home. He could have been there fighting Lewis while he was going for Kimi. Instead, because he didn't want to lose out in that moment.. he really lost out. And is blaming Lewis for what? Not leaving space? every photo/video shows there was space for both cars.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:06 am 
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If you have two drivers competing for the WDC and you are ahead of your contender isn't it a bit of an own goal to let him get past you? I really do not understand why Vettel thought it was so important to pass Kimi. All he had to do was to finish in front of Hamilton to continue to erode Hamilton points and confidence.

By crashing out he has given LH a big advantage.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:22 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Interesting article I came across regarding vettel and his form of late. Didn’t want to start a new thread as this one pretty much covers the topic at hand.

https://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2018/09/04/f1-vettel-still-prone-to-errors-despite-past-f1-successes/

“Vettel insisted he had not been at fault in the collision but Hamilton pointed out that he and Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen engaged in an identical exchange later in the race with both drivers exiting the chicane cleanly.”

Both vettel and ferrari have made their share of mistakes this year. At times it seems both ferrari and vettel have forgotten how to win a championship. I really expected more from vettel this year myself and it seems the pressure might just be getting to him.

Season isn’t over yet but maybe the despiration is setting in ?

He's demonstrated a cool head under pressure before, though, so not sure that's necessarily it. But I agree he messed up in Monza and needs to take a look at himself. Just a guess but I think he was more worried about Kimi than he was Hamilton and seemed to forget he was even there. Seemed a very strange line for him to take as you'd think he would have tried to force Hamilton wide on the corner approach instead of giving him all the room in the world.


He's kept a cool head before when challenging/winning titles? When?

At RBR he expected wins and even collided with his team mate. Refused to take responsibility.
Last year.. where Lewis apparently break tested him... I don't need to repeat how that all went. Took him ages to finally accept responsibility and again.. we all know he was forced to do so because of telemetry (fact) evidence.

Last season we witnessed an even stevens war. No longer was it Merc V Merc. It was Lewis V Vettel (like this season). And again we are seeing the team/driver making the least mistakes sitting on top. Lewis had his off season where he made a lot of mistakes, the year where Button outscored Lewis. Lewis was constantly criticised for pressure, head set etc - and rightly so.

Problem with Vettel, he's a bit like Max. It's an all or nothing attitude unless he has no choice but to play the long game (by finishing as high as possible after a problem just like Italy).

The footage you can see clearly which car lost grip in that split last second causing a collision. Vettel is just angry that he was the only one that lost out.

Funny thing is Lewis has done it at times by refusing to admit who was at fault. They all do it. Vettel though, needs to start thinking about bringing the car home. He could have been there fighting Lewis while he was going for Kimi. Instead, because he didn't want to lose out in that moment.. he really lost out. And is blaming Lewis for what? Not leaving space? every photo/video shows there was space for both cars.

RBR he didn't make a regular habit of colliding with his team mate. He was there for quite a while. In 2010 he was a distant 5th in the standings after Canada yet managed to overhaul everyone and win it, keeping his head in the last race when both his rivals messed up. Likewise in 2012 he was nearly two race wins behind Alonso at the halfway point and still 39 points behind Vettel after Italy, with only 7 races left, yet he didn't crack under pressure. So yeah, he's managed it before

As you say, many's the driver who hasn't taken responsibility for things that were his fault, so Vettel's certainly not unique in that regard. But yeah, he needs to admit he's messed up, if only to himself


Last edited by Zoue on Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:26 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
If you have two drivers competing for the WDC and you are ahead of your contender isn't it a bit of an own goal to let him get past you? I really do not understand why Vettel thought it was so important to pass Kimi. All he had to do was to finish in front of Hamilton to continue to erode Hamilton points and confidence.

By crashing out he has given LH a big advantage.

well I can understand why he'd want to get past. He's been in enough title fights to know that the smallest number of points can make the difference at the end. I don't think settling for second was ever going to be on the cards, but he did mess up by being to eager to get it done at the start. If I had to guess I'd say he was still peed off at the thought that Kimi had beaten him to the pole when he should have had an easy time of it and he let that get in his way. That and Germany are two occasions where he can only really look at himself and he may have cause to rue that at the end of the year


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:50 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If you have two drivers competing for the WDC and you are ahead of your contender isn't it a bit of an own goal to let him get past you? I really do not understand why Vettel thought it was so important to pass Kimi. All he had to do was to finish in front of Hamilton to continue to erode Hamilton points and confidence.

By crashing out he has given LH a big advantage.

well I can understand why he'd want to get past. He's been in enough title fights to know that the smallest number of points can make the difference at the end. I don't think settling for second was ever going to be on the cards, but he did mess up by being to eager to get it done at the start. If I had to guess I'd say he was still peed off at the thought that Kimi had beaten him to the pole when he should have had an easy time of it and he let that get in his way. That and Germany are two occasions where he can only really look at himself and he may have cause to rue that at the end of the year


I would say France as well. It's odd because he was such a bankable driver from 2011-15 but these mistakes are nothing new now. He's made to many errors for a top driver every year since 2016 really. You kind of have to ask asking which is the real Vettel?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If you have two drivers competing for the WDC and you are ahead of your contender isn't it a bit of an own goal to let him get past you? I really do not understand why Vettel thought it was so important to pass Kimi. All he had to do was to finish in front of Hamilton to continue to erode Hamilton points and confidence.

By crashing out he has given LH a big advantage.

well I can understand why he'd want to get past. He's been in enough title fights to know that the smallest number of points can make the difference at the end. I don't think settling for second was ever going to be on the cards, but he did mess up by being to eager to get it done at the start. If I had to guess I'd say he was still peed off at the thought that Kimi had beaten him to the pole when he should have had an easy time of it and he let that get in his way. That and Germany are two occasions where he can only really look at himself and he may have cause to rue that at the end of the year


I would say France as well. It's odd because he was such a bankable driver from 2011-15 but these mistakes are nothing new now. He's made to many errors for a top driver every year since 2016 really. You kind of have to ask asking which is the real Vettel?

Mark Hughes has an interesting opinion piece on this:
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/ ... s-mistakes

Not sure I agree with everything in there but his main point would certainly make sense, that the pressure of trying to win a title with Ferrari could be getting to him. In 2015 there was no pressure because there was no expectation of victory, since then there has been as that's when the cracks have shown.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:57 am 
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Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:54 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


Not odd at all, by then he had 3 titles with Red Bull already, now he's up against a team/driver in exactly the same position.
No, the Mercedes have been way more dominant during this period than Red Bull ever was.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:03 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


Not odd at all, by then he had 3 titles with Red Bull already, now he's up against a team/driver in exactly the same position.
No, the Mercedes have been way more dominant during this period than Red Bull ever was.

they have, yes, but not this year. Be fair, there's almost nothing to split the cars and anytime there is it's usually track-specific. Mercedes don't even have their qualifying advantage anymore, so it's basically boiling down to who's best on the day and perhaps occasional (mis)fortune.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:03 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


Not odd at all, by then he had 3 titles with Red Bull already, now he's up against a team/driver in exactly the same position.
No, the Mercedes have been way more dominant during this period than Red Bull ever was.

Look, no offense intended but I've lost all respect for your contributions. The Mercedes is not dominant and has not been dominant at all these last two seasons while Vettel has been fighting for the championship. If you want to so blatantly misrepresent what's actually happening, people won't take you seriously.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


Not odd at all, by then he had 3 titles with Red Bull already, now he's up against a team/driver in exactly the same position.
No, the Mercedes have been way more dominant during this period than Red Bull ever was.

Look, no offense intended but I've lost all respect for your contributions. The Mercedes is not dominant and has not been dominant at all these last two seasons while Vettel has been fighting for the championship. If you want to so blatantly misrepresent what's actually happening, people won't take you seriously.


I meant during the whole period off course, why single out the last 2 seasons?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:12 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


Not odd at all, by then he had 3 titles with Red Bull already, now he's up against a team/driver in exactly the same position.
No, the Mercedes have been way more dominant during this period than Red Bull ever was.

Look, no offense intended but I've lost all respect for your contributions. The Mercedes is not dominant and has not been dominant at all these last two seasons while Vettel has been fighting for the championship. If you want to so blatantly misrepresent what's actually happening, people won't take you seriously.


I meant during the whole period off course, why single out the last 2 seasons?

There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel. You suggest that Vettel is making mistakes because he's up against a dominant team but the fact is that Ferrari have produced the better car on the year. It's frustrating when the conversation loses touch with reality to this extent.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Forget about the possibility of Vettel winning in races like Germany and Italy for a moment. Let's say that in Italy he loses to Hamilton; finishing 2nd in the race. Lets also say that in Germany, Hamilton catches him and passes him on track and he finishes second. That would be 36 points taken from those two "losses" instead of the 12 that he actually got from those races. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a battle while keeping in mind the war. And that's not even looking at races like France and Baku. Vettel this year is like the Vettel of 2010. It is indeed quite odd because by the end of his championship run at RBR, Vettel actually made very few errors.


Not odd at all, by then he had 3 titles with Red Bull already, now he's up against a team/driver in exactly the same position.
No, the Mercedes have been way more dominant during this period than Red Bull ever was.

Look, no offense intended but I've lost all respect for your contributions. The Mercedes is not dominant and has not been dominant at all these last two seasons while Vettel has been fighting for the championship. If you want to so blatantly misrepresent what's actually happening, people won't take you seriously.


I meant during the whole period off course, why single out the last 2 seasons?

There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel. You suggest that Vettel is making mistakes because he's up against a dominant team but the fact is that Ferrari have produced the better car on the year. It's frustrating when the conversation loses touch with reality to this extent.


No I didn't, I claim that Hamilton makes less mistakes because he's taken 3 titles with Merc already.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:36 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Look, no offense intended but I've lost all respect for your contributions. The Mercedes is not dominant and has not been dominant at all these last two seasons while Vettel has been fighting for the championship. If you want to so blatantly misrepresent what's actually happening, people won't take you seriously.


I meant during the whole period off course, why single out the last 2 seasons?

There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel. You suggest that Vettel is making mistakes because he's up against a dominant team but the fact is that Ferrari have produced the better car on the year. It's frustrating when the conversation loses touch with reality to this extent.


No I didn't, I claim that Hamilton makes less mistakes because he's taken 3 titles with Merc already.

Okay...Is that supposed to make sense?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:42 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Look, no offense intended but I've lost all respect for your contributions. The Mercedes is not dominant and has not been dominant at all these last two seasons while Vettel has been fighting for the championship. If you want to so blatantly misrepresent what's actually happening, people won't take you seriously.


I meant during the whole period off course, why single out the last 2 seasons?

There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel. You suggest that Vettel is making mistakes because he's up against a dominant team but the fact is that Ferrari have produced the better car on the year. It's frustrating when the conversation loses touch with reality to this extent.


No I didn't, I claim that Hamilton makes less mistakes because he's taken 3 titles with Merc already.

Okay...Is that supposed to make sense?


No pun intended, but I don't have high hopes for a discussion with you.

You claim "There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel."

I claim the opposite.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Vettel doesn't really have off days. Hamilton has them.

That is why Vettel always goes for it. Hamilton stays put when he has off days.

Hence, Hamilton is collecting the points and Vettel isn't.

This is the only thing I could notice about the two.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:49 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:

No I didn't, I claim that Hamilton makes less mistakes because he's taken 3 titles with Merc already.

Okay...Is that supposed to make sense?


No pun intended, but I don't have high hopes for a discussion with you.

You claim "There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel."

I claim the opposite.

You can make whatever claim you want but if it doesn't make any sense then it doesn't make any sense. Maybe you should start by explaining how exactly the Mercedes of the past helps Hamilton today?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:05 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Vettel doesn't really have off days. Hamilton has them.

That is why Vettel always goes for it. Hamilton stays put when he has off days.

Hence, Hamilton is collecting the points and Vettel isn't.

This is the only thing I could notice about the two.

It's true that at the beginning of the year Lewis did look a little lackluster on occasion. But lately he's been very much on form and I'd imagine having the title in his sights would likely provide him the motivation not to lose focus the rest of the year. If he loses it now it would basically go against the pattern of the rest of the season


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:06 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:

No I didn't, I claim that Hamilton makes less mistakes because he's taken 3 titles with Merc already.

Okay...Is that supposed to make sense?


No pun intended, but I don't have high hopes for a discussion with you.

You claim "There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel."

I claim the opposite.

You can make whatever claim you want but if it doesn't make any sense then it doesn't make any sense. Maybe you should start by explaining how exactly the Mercedes of the past helps Hamilton today?


Since you claim the opposite, that past success have no affect on current, you obviously lack in a lot of areas so perhaps let's leave it at that.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:08 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:

No I didn't, I claim that Hamilton makes less mistakes because he's taken 3 titles with Merc already.

Okay...Is that supposed to make sense?


No pun intended, but I don't have high hopes for a discussion with you.

You claim "There is nothing about the dominant Mercedes cars from 2014-2016 that has an impact on these current title fights between Hamilton and Vettel."

I claim the opposite.

You can make whatever claim you want but if it doesn't make any sense then it doesn't make any sense. Maybe you should start by explaining how exactly the Mercedes of the past helps Hamilton today?


Since you claim the opposite, that past success have no affect on current, you obviously lack in a lot of areas so perhaps let's leave it at that.

Personal insults aside, the question stands...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Personal insults aside, the question stands...



It actually doesn't, but you fail to see it again and again..


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
If you have two drivers competing for the WDC and you are ahead of your contender isn't it a bit of an own goal to let him get past you? I really do not understand why Vettel thought it was so important to pass Kimi. All he had to do was to finish in front of Hamilton to continue to erode Hamilton points and confidence.

By crashing out he has given LH a big advantage.

well I can understand why he'd want to get past. He's been in enough title fights to know that the smallest number of points can make the difference at the end. I don't think settling for second was ever going to be on the cards, but he did mess up by being to eager to get it done at the start. If I had to guess I'd say he was still peed off at the thought that Kimi had beaten him to the pole when he should have had an easy time of it and he let that get in his way. That and Germany are two occasions where he can only really look at himself and he may have cause to rue that at the end of the year


I would say France as well. It's odd because he was such a bankable driver from 2011-15 but these mistakes are nothing new now. He's made to many errors for a top driver every year since 2016 really. You kind of have to ask asking which is the real Vettel?


Maybe they are both real and form is changeable, with some drivers being more volatile than others.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Mod edit


Last edited by Mod Titanium on Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inappropriate content removed


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:21 pm 
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mod edit


Last edited by Mod Titanium on Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inappropriate content removed


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:47 pm 
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lets put the personal disputes aside and stick to the topic at hand.... This has become a theme today let’s break the cycle.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
He's demonstrated a cool head under pressure before, though, so not sure that's necessarily it. But I agree he messed up in Monza and needs to take a look at himself. Just a guess but I think he was more worried about Kimi than he was Hamilton and seemed to forget he was even there. Seemed a very strange line for him to take as you'd think he would have tried to force Hamilton wide on the corner approach instead of giving him all the room in the world.


Agreed, he was more worried about kimi then he was Hamilton. Which is foolish when kimi could have been handled without a fight later on in the race with strategy or just out right pace. Vettel was surely still upset about the qualifying no less....


Teddy007 wrote:
He's kept a cool head before when challenging/winning titles? When?

At RBR he expected wins and even collided with his team mate. Refused to take responsibility.
Last year.. where Lewis apparently break tested him... I don't need to repeat how that all went. Took him ages to finally accept responsibility and again.. we all know he was forced to do so because of telemetry (fact) evidence.

Last season we witnessed an even stevens war. No longer was it Merc V Merc. It was Lewis V Vettel (like this season). And again we are seeing the team/driver making the least mistakes sitting on top. Lewis had his off season where he made a lot of mistakes, the year where Button outscored Lewis. Lewis was constantly criticised for pressure, head set etc - and rightly so.

Problem with Vettel, he's a bit like Max. It's an all or nothing attitude unless he has no choice but to play the long game (by finishing as high as possible after a problem just like Italy).

The footage you can see clearly which car lost grip in that split last second causing a collision. Vettel is just angry that he was the only one that lost out.

Funny thing is Lewis has done it at times by refusing to admit who was at fault. They all do it. Vettel though, needs to start thinking about bringing the car home. He could have been there fighting Lewis while he was going for Kimi. Instead, because he didn't want to lose out in that moment.. he really lost out. And is blaming Lewis for what? Not leaving space? every photo/video shows there was space for both cars.



I agree vettel is very much like max in that all or nothing mind set. Vettel hasn’t been playing the long game. He races for the moment and he wants to 1st no matter what as we saw in Italy. While Hamilton has been picking his spots to attack. When he isn’t in the best position he does what he can there and brings the car home. While vettel immediately goes for broke.

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