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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:23 pm 
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As in good fashion, at season's end the team bosses cast their votes on the best drivers of the year. Unsurprisingly, Hamilton has taken the #1 spot.

Without further ado, here is the top 10 (last column = spots gained/lost:

Code:
1      Lewis Hamilton   233   -
2      Max Verstappen   143   -
3      Sebastian Vettel   141   +2
4      Daniel Ricciardo   112   -
5      Esteban Ocon   73   New entry
6      Fernando Alonso   65   -
7 =      Kimi Raikkonen   49   -
7 =      Carlos Sainz Jr   49   +2
9      Nico Hulkenberg   47   New entry
10      Valtteri Bottas   39   -1


A few things are remarkable:
1. Verstappen above Ricciardo. Not terribly far apart, but clear enough.
2. Ocon above Perez. By a big margin, with Ocon in fifth and Perez not in the top 10. While Ocon did very well, this vote is probably more influenced by perceived talent than by performance.
3. Raikkonen figuring in the top 10 is debatable, but above Bottas even... No.
4. Sainz above Hulkenberg, also not too sure.

Link: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13347 ... s-revealed

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:53 pm 
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mds wrote:
As in good fashion, at season's end the team bosses cast their votes on the best drivers of the year. Unsurprisingly, Hamilton has taken the #1 spot.

Without further ado, here is the top 10 (last column = spots gained/lost:

Code:
1      Lewis Hamilton   233   -
2      Max Verstappen   143   -
3      Sebastian Vettel   141   +2
4      Daniel Ricciardo   112   -
5      Esteban Ocon   73   New entry
6      Fernando Alonso   65   -
7 =      Kimi Raikkonen   49   -
7 =      Carlos Sainz Jr   49   +2
9      Nico Hulkenberg   47   New entry
10      Valtteri Bottas   39   -1


A few things are remarkable:
1. Verstappen above Ricciardo. Not terribly far apart, but clear enough.
2. Ocon above Perez. By a big margin, with Ocon in fifth and Perez not in the top 10. While Ocon did very well, this vote is probably more influenced by perceived talent than by performance.
3. Raikkonen figuring in the top 10 is debatable, but above Bottas even... No.
4. Sainz above Hulkenberg, also not too sure.

Link: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13347 ... s-revealed

Thoughts?

Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:01 pm 
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I pretty much agree with your analysis.

My thoughts on Occon vs Perez are that it may be influenced by the way Perez was with the press and team after their comings together. For a driver with the experience that Perez has now, he acted very much like you'd expect from a rookie. Purely based on talent I'd put Perez higher Occon, but for drivers I'd want in my team, I would have him lower.

I'm also not sure about Vettel and Ricciado, I think I'd swap them around simply for the mistakes Vettel has made in traffic this year (remaniscent of 2010?). So I think my list would be:

1 - Hamilton
2 - Verstappen
3 - Ricciado
4 - Alonso
5 - Vettel
6 - Occon
7 - Bottas
8 - Hulkenburg
9 - Perez
10 - Sainz

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Kimi had some decent qualifying moments, but was consistently average in race pace throughout the year. I think Bottas had bigger performance swings. Sometimes he had good pace, other times he was poor


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:16 pm 
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I'd definitely have Bottas above Kimi - he won 3 races.

You can't say Kimi didn't have a car capable of winning races.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
I'd definitely have Bottas above Kimi - he won 3 races.

You can't say Kimi didn't have a car capable of winning races.

yeah I don't think either deserve to be top ten material. Kimi's problem was that whenever they had a car capable of winning Vettel was usually ahead in the queue


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:26 pm 
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As an overview of what team bosses think doesn't sit well with Perez, for me it seems obvious that Perez was better but they would rather have Ocon, I guess because they see a driver with more potential but also I wonder if they take into account the attitude of a driver?

Outside of the top teams Perez has been best of the rest for the past couple of seasons now but doesn't register with the people that count.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
I'd definitely have Bottas above Kimi - he won 3 races.

You can't say Kimi didn't have a car capable of winning races.

yeah I don't think either deserve to be top ten material. Kimi's problem was that whenever they had a car capable of winning Vettel was usually ahead in the queue

Which was more than half the season, the fact that Kimi is rated so highly by the people that count is why he keeps getting a top drive, only 1 place lower than a driver that thrashed him, they must see something that a lot us don't?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
As an overview of what team bosses think doesn't sit well with Perez, for me it seems obvious that Perez was better but they would rather have Ocon, I guess because they see a driver with more potential but also I wonder if they take into account the attitude of a driver?

Outside of the top teams Perez has been best of the rest for the past couple of seasons now but doesn't register with the people that count.


This surely spells disaster for Perez. His actions surely haven't gone well. I don't think he will bag a better seat in 2019 even. Perez's best time fr a top drive was when he was overshadowing Hulk.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:36 pm 
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mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.


Hmm, maybe I should delve into it deeper than I have. Results-wise, Bottas is far closer in points (even percentage-wise) than Raikkonen to Vettel. Even accounting for Raikkonen's two extra DNFs with regards to Vettel, he's further off. That's mainly what I looked at.

Might not be the whole picture, I admit.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:45 pm 
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mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.


Hmm, maybe I should delve into it deeper than I have. Results-wise, Bottas is far closer in points (even percentage-wise) than Raikkonen to Vettel. Even accounting for Raikkonen's two extra DNFs with regards to Vettel, he's further off. That's mainly what I looked at.

Might not be the whole picture, I admit.


Just because we're talking about Raikkonen in a Ferrari, he got some consideration. He's in the top 10 because of his pole at Monaco & a few podium appearances. I don't think a team principal would vote a Ferrari driver outside the top 10 as a sign of respect.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
I'd definitely have Bottas above Kimi - he won 3 races.

You can't say Kimi didn't have a car capable of winning races.

yeah I don't think either deserve to be top ten material. Kimi's problem was that whenever they had a car capable of winning Vettel was usually ahead in the queue

Which was more than half the season, the fact that Kimi is rated so highly by the people that count is why he keeps getting a top drive, only 1 place lower than a driver that thrashed him, they must see something that a lot us don't?

Yes it's a head scratcher. I think he's been quite poor this year. He just cannot replicate his qualifying pace during the race and I can't remember the last time I thought he looked properly quick. But after a strong start, Bottas appears to have imploded, so overall I'd say he has had a worse season in terms of what he has shown he is capable of vs what he has delivered

Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:53 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.


Hmm, maybe I should delve into it deeper than I have. Results-wise, Bottas is far closer in points (even percentage-wise) than Raikkonen to Vettel. Even accounting for Raikkonen's two extra DNFs with regards to Vettel, he's further off. That's mainly what I looked at.

Might not be the whole picture, I admit.


Just because we're talking about Raikkonen in a Ferrari, he got some consideration. He's in the top 10 because of his pole at Monaco & a few podium appearances. I don't think a team principal would vote a Ferrari driver outside the top 10 as a sign of respect.

while I agree that car performance does tend to colour the judgement of the even the experts to a surprising degree, I don't see there's evidence that respect for Ferrari plays any part in the decision making. Given the opportunities the car has afforded him, ending up 7th isn't exactly an endorsement. I also think Kimi hasn't been very good this year, but when I look at the remaining drivers not on this list I'm hard pressed to identify ones which have been easily better.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.


It's hard to say anything with confidence until we see drivers go up against each other.

That being said, I would put Perez, Hulkenberg and Sainz above Raikkonen in my list. Purely based on my impression of this season alone and trying to think as little as possible about talent/capability. I think all of them had a better/more impressive year.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:07 pm 
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mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

to be fair though Kimi had significantly more DNFs than Bottas did, otherwise he's likely be much closer to Vettel. Bottas had a single retirement, while Kimi had four.

In the first half of the season, Bottas was better. But he was much further off his team mate's pace in the 2nd half IMO. Higher highs and lower lows!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:11 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.


It's hard to say anything with confidence until we see drivers go up against each other.

That being said, I would put Perez, Hulkenberg and Sainz above Raikkonen in my list. Purely based on my impression of this season alone and trying to think as little as possible about talent/capability. I think all of them had a better/more impressive year.

yes I don't think there's much to disagree with there, although I'm not massively convinced by Hulk or Perez. If they were better, it was by small margins. Neither were what I would call impressive.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

to be fair though Kimi had significantly more DNFs than Bottas did, otherwise he's likely be much closer to Vettel. Bottas had a single retirement, while Kimi had four.


I had also thought of that, but give Kimi 30 points extra for equal number of finishes to Vettel, and that still doesn't get him as close to Vettel as Bottas was to Hamilton.

Agree with your other post re: Perez/Sainz/Hulk.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
I'd definitely have Bottas above Kimi - he won 3 races.

You can't say Kimi didn't have a car capable of winning races.

yeah I don't think either deserve to be top ten material. Kimi's problem was that whenever they had a car capable of winning Vettel was usually ahead in the queue

Which was more than half the season, the fact that Kimi is rated so highly by the people that count is why he keeps getting a top drive, only 1 place lower than a driver that thrashed him, they must see something that a lot us don't?

Yes it's a head scratcher. I think he's been quite poor this year. He just cannot replicate his qualifying pace during the race and I can't remember the last time I thought he looked properly quick. But after a strong start, Bottas appears to have imploded, so overall I'd say he has had a worse season in terms of what he has shown he is capable of vs what he has delivered

Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.

Kimi's qualifying pace has been 3 tenths slower than Vettel and you look on that as being his main strength.

Bottas' highs have been much higher than Kimi's, his lows about the same, but because that makes Bottas look more inconsistent in comparison to Kimi then that's a negative for him, it's a strange overview that favours Kimi because he has been a more consistent driver.

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

to be fair though Kimi had significantly more DNFs than Bottas did, otherwise he's likely be much closer to Vettel. Bottas had a single retirement, while Kimi had four.

In the first half of the season, Bottas was better. But he was much further off his team mate's pace in the 2nd half IMO. Higher highs and lower lows!

I would question the lower lows.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
As in good fashion, at season's end the team bosses cast their votes on the best drivers of the year. Unsurprisingly, Hamilton has taken the #1 spot.

Without further ado, here is the top 10 (last column = spots gained/lost:

Code:
1      Lewis Hamilton   233   -
2      Max Verstappen   143   -
3      Sebastian Vettel   141   +2
4      Daniel Ricciardo   112   -
5      Esteban Ocon   73   New entry
6      Fernando Alonso   65   -
7 =      Kimi Raikkonen   49   -
7 =      Carlos Sainz Jr   49   +2
9      Nico Hulkenberg   47   New entry
10      Valtteri Bottas   39   -1


A few things are remarkable:
1. Verstappen above Ricciardo. Not terribly far apart, but clear enough.
2. Ocon above Perez. By a big margin, with Ocon in fifth and Perez not in the top 10. While Ocon did very well, this vote is probably more influenced by perceived talent than by performance.
3. Raikkonen figuring in the top 10 is debatable, but above Bottas even... No.
4. Sainz above Hulkenberg, also not too sure.

Link: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13347 ... s-revealed

Thoughts?

Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Relatively, they were both pretty poor. But at least Bottas has some mitigation in having to make the adjustment to a new team/environment. And, according to Lauda, the W08 developed away from Bottas's style, to better suit Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:29 pm 
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mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.


Hmm, maybe I should delve into it deeper than I have. Results-wise, Bottas is far closer in points (even percentage-wise) than Raikkonen to Vettel. Even accounting for Raikkonen's two extra DNFs with regards to Vettel, he's further off. That's mainly what I looked at.

Might not be the whole picture, I admit.

I’ve looked into it briefly just myself, only qualifying though as it’s the easiest.

I make it that the average gap between Ham/Bot was 0.368 (or 0.255 if you exclude Monza's massive gap and 0.261 if you substitute Monza for the more reasonable average gap between them)

The Vettel/Kimi average was 0.276. So overall it was actually pretty close, with probably about a hundredth in Bottas’ favour on the averages.

I’d probably stick by my gut feeling and rate them more or less side by side, but I’m not sure either would make my top 10, it would certainly be pretty close.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
I'd definitely have Bottas above Kimi - he won 3 races.

You can't say Kimi didn't have a car capable of winning races.

yeah I don't think either deserve to be top ten material. Kimi's problem was that whenever they had a car capable of winning Vettel was usually ahead in the queue

Which was more than half the season, the fact that Kimi is rated so highly by the people that count is why he keeps getting a top drive, only 1 place lower than a driver that thrashed him, they must see something that a lot us don't?

Yes it's a head scratcher. I think he's been quite poor this year. He just cannot replicate his qualifying pace during the race and I can't remember the last time I thought he looked properly quick. But after a strong start, Bottas appears to have imploded, so overall I'd say he has had a worse season in terms of what he has shown he is capable of vs what he has delivered

Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.

Kimi's qualifying pace has been 3 tenths slower than Vettel and you look on that as being his main strength.

Bottas' highs have been much higher than Kimi's, his lows about the same, but because that makes Bottas look more inconsistent in comparison to Kimi then that's a negative for him, it's a strange overview that favours Kimi because he has been a more consistent driver.

Ah, I'd forgotten how picky you were. Silly me.

I said he was poor, too, so it's not like I've been endorsing him. But IMO he's looked a lot closer to Vettel generally speaking during qualifying than he has during races. He's occasionally beaten Vettel and often come quite close, but during races he's more often than not nowhere near as quick. So for me the gap in races is bigger than the gap in qualifying, overall.

Inconsistency is a reason to mark a driver down IMO. If a driver is not performing consistently at a level we know he can reach, then why would we rank him highly overall, just because he has a few good days?

Anyway, I think it's valid to rate them reasonably evenly. Both have been a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. You might have a different view but I wouldn't call it strange simply because it doesn't tally with my own.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?

I don't think so. If you look at the points table before and after the summer break, Kimi got just over 77% of Vettel's points, almost exactly the same as Bottas did of Lewis. But before the break Kimi had just over 57% of Vettel's total, while Bottas had nearly 90% of Lewis' points haul, and that with a retirement. So relative to their team mates Kimi had a much better second half than Bottas did. Kimi improved, while Bottas went backwards, relatively speaking

Having said that, neither can be particular proud of their respective seasons, frankly. Just had different stronger halves


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Bottas in his first year at Mercedes scored 84% of Hamilton's points. Kimi, in his 4th season at Ferrari, scored only 65% of Vettel's points. Bottas won 3 races, Kimi none. Bottas was on the podium 13 times, Kimi only 7, even less than Ricciardo (9) in slower and less reliable Red Bull :lol: Bottas on average finished race 9.125s behind Hamilton, Kimi 16.076s behind Vettel.

It's a joke Bottas was rated lower than Kimi, but nowadays Formula 1 is a joke itself, so I guess it fits right into that mould.

minchy wrote:
My thoughts on Occon vs Perez are that it may be influenced by the way Perez was with the press and team after their comings together. For a driver with the experience that Perez has now, he acted very much like you'd expect from a rookie. Purely based on talent I'd put Perez higher Occon, but for drivers I'd want in my team, I would have him lower.


pokerman wrote:
As an overview of what team bosses think doesn't sit well with Perez, for me it seems obvious that Perez was better but they would rather have Ocon, I guess because they see a driver with more potential but also I wonder if they take into account the attitude of a driver?

Outside of the top teams Perez has been best of the rest for the past couple of seasons now but doesn't register with the people that count.


It's not "who I wanna hire" ranking, but, let me quote
Quote:
Autosport asked all 10 F1 teams' bosses to rank their top 10 drivers, based on on-track performances over the course of this year's 20 races


If they include other aspects in their opinions, well, it proves they aren't that smart bunch of people. It's like saying that Alonso doesn't deserve to be even in 2007 Top 4, because he was a massive tw@t that brought ignominy on his team by blocking team mate in qualifying, blackmailing his team and accusing them of sabotage. Or Vettel should be outside Top 5 this year, because he deliberately drove into competitor during a race and showed absolutely no remorse plus 2 times he displayed awful racecraft at the start in Singapore and Mexico. But hey, it pales in comparison with Perez, who dared risky moves in Monaco with one that didn't work (and his great battle with Palmer and Stroll wasn't even shown by moron of a tv director), negotiated team orders over radio in Canada, was put into wall at Baku by team mate, which robbed very possible victory and definite podium from Force India and then at Spa returned the favour.

Nope. 17 times out of 20 (18 finished) races in points, with Ocon scoring 18 times, doesn't deserve recognition by these fools. For armchair expert like me it shows Force India had by far the best pair of drivers outside Big 4, both were very fast and super consistent and together they brought another priceless 4th place in Constructors' Championship. Why then one is 5th in this ranking, while the other one, much more experienced yes, but with more points scored, isn't? Mystery or utter stupidity?

Then I saw Sainz is in Top 10 :lol: I guess colliding with Stroll in Bahrain, wiping out Grosjean and Massa in Canada, colliding with Ocon in Malaysia, spinning out of race at the first lap in Japan and finally spinning at the 2nd lap in Mexico, all the things he was solely responsible for, gives him that recognition. Congrats team principals, your judgement is extraordinary :lol:

My Top 10, based only on on-track performance, judged by pressure on their shoulders, mistakes made, quality of their cars and team mates and finally results brought home:

1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Ricciardo
4. Alonso
5. Vettel
6. Bottas
7. Perez
8. Ocon
9. Hulkenberg
10. Sainz

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I don't think either deserve to be top ten material. Kimi's problem was that whenever they had a car capable of winning Vettel was usually ahead in the queue

Which was more than half the season, the fact that Kimi is rated so highly by the people that count is why he keeps getting a top drive, only 1 place lower than a driver that thrashed him, they must see something that a lot us don't?

Yes it's a head scratcher. I think he's been quite poor this year. He just cannot replicate his qualifying pace during the race and I can't remember the last time I thought he looked properly quick. But after a strong start, Bottas appears to have imploded, so overall I'd say he has had a worse season in terms of what he has shown he is capable of vs what he has delivered

Mind you, when I look at the rest of the grid, on reflection I don't see many who are head and shoulders above these two, either (apart from those already in the list, that is). Possibly Perez, although I think he's been variable, too.

Kimi's qualifying pace has been 3 tenths slower than Vettel and you look on that as being his main strength.

Bottas' highs have been much higher than Kimi's, his lows about the same, but because that makes Bottas look more inconsistent in comparison to Kimi then that's a negative for him, it's a strange overview that favours Kimi because he has been a more consistent driver.

Ah, I'd forgotten how picky you were. Silly me.

I said he was poor, too, so it's not like I've been endorsing him. But IMO he's looked a lot closer to Vettel generally speaking during qualifying than he has during races. He's occasionally beaten Vettel and often come quite close, but during races he's more often than not nowhere near as quick. So for me the gap in races is bigger than the gap in qualifying, overall.

Inconsistency is a reason to mark a driver down IMO. If a driver is not performing consistently at a level we know he can reach, then why would we rank him highly overall, just because he has a few good days?

Anyway, I think it's valid to rate them reasonably evenly. Both have been a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. You might have a different view but I wouldn't call it strange simply because it doesn't tally with my own.

Like I said consistency seems to be the key here, even when you have been more consistently poor.

In every metric Kimi has been further behind Vettel than Bottas has been behind Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?


What double standard?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?

I don't think so. If you look at the points table before and after the summer break, Kimi got just over 77% of Vettel's points, almost exactly the same as Bottas did of Lewis. But before the break Kimi had just over 57% of Vettel's total, while Bottas had nearly 90% of Lewis' points haul, and that with a retirement. So relative to their team mates Kimi had a much better second half than Bottas did. Kimi improved, while Bottas went backwards, relatively speaking

Having said that, neither can be particular proud of their respective seasons, frankly. Just had different stronger halves

That's a strange logic despite doing as well as Bottas in the second half of the season, Kimi actually did better because he improved on his first half of the season whilst Bottas did worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

to be fair though Kimi had significantly more DNFs than Bottas did, otherwise he's likely be much closer to Vettel. Bottas had a single retirement, while Kimi had four.

In the first half of the season, Bottas was better. But he was much further off his team mate's pace in the 2nd half IMO. Higher highs and lower lows!

I would question the lower lows.


Singapore. Shown up by the worst driver on the grid Palmer.

I think higher highs and lower lows is fine. I also think there was a large period between Canada and Mexico where Bottas was further away from Lewis than Kimi was to Seb but I'd qualify that by saying Lewis was better than Seb so should be taken into account. Bottas also finished quite strongly.

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Last edited by Lotus49 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?


What double standard?

I think people get that used to Kimi getting thrashed by Vettel that they stop noticing it whereas with Bottas because he had some early success against Hamilton it was more noticeable when things changed.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:35 pm 
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On the ratings I don't think Ocon can be there and Perez not. Also above Alonso is taking the mickey a bit. Kimi shouldn't be there. I think they got the #1 spot right at least though.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

to be fair though Kimi had significantly more DNFs than Bottas did, otherwise he's likely be much closer to Vettel. Bottas had a single retirement, while Kimi had four.

In the first half of the season, Bottas was better. But he was much further off his team mate's pace in the 2nd half IMO. Higher highs and lower lows!

I would question the lower lows.


Singapore. Shown up by the worst driver on the grid Palmer.

I think higher highs and lower lows is fine. I also think there was a large period between Canada and Mexico where Bottas was further away from Lewis than Kimi was to Seb but I'd qualify that by saying Lewis was better than Seb so should be taken into account. Bottas also finished quite strongly.

Palmer showed Bottas up in Singapore, I think you need to quantify that?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
On the ratings I don't think Ocon can be there and Perez not. Also above Alonso is taking the mickey a bit. Kimi shouldn't be there. I think they got the #1 spot right at least though.

It's interesting the way they think though when trying to look at future driver moves.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:

Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?


What double standard?

I think people get that used to Kimi getting thrashed by Vettel that they stop noticing it whereas with Bottas because he had some early success against Hamilton it was more noticeable when things changed.


You could say the same for Kimi when he improved from Monaco onwards, no-one seemed to notice or care because they are so used to seeing Seb beat him comfortably. Most people on here seemed to go straight to 'oh well Seb seemed to be slow today' when Kimi got near.

A big difference between them for me was when Kimi was competitive Seb was right there getting in his way. When Bottas was competitive Lewis wasn't there for one reason or another. Monaco(Quali unlucky/mistake),Russia(Dodgy S3),Austria(Grid Penalty) and Brazil(Quali mistake). AD was the exception.

Also there's usually double standards with a lot of what we talk about in this particular game for whatever reason. I don't think its always intended though.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:

Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

to be fair though Kimi had significantly more DNFs than Bottas did, otherwise he's likely be much closer to Vettel. Bottas had a single retirement, while Kimi had four.

In the first half of the season, Bottas was better. But he was much further off his team mate's pace in the 2nd half IMO. Higher highs and lower lows!

I would question the lower lows.


Singapore. Shown up by the worst driver on the grid Palmer.

I think higher highs and lower lows is fine. I also think there was a large period between Canada and Mexico where Bottas was further away from Lewis than Kimi was to Seb but I'd qualify that by saying Lewis was better than Seb so should be taken into account. Bottas also finished quite strongly.

Palmer showed Bottas up in Singapore, I think you need to quantify that?


He was better than him all weekend and passed him on track. Only reason Bottas was ahead was the car and he managed not to bin it.

He was awful.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
On the ratings I don't think Ocon can be there and Perez not. Also above Alonso is taking the mickey a bit. Kimi shouldn't be there. I think they got the #1 spot right at least though.

It's interesting the way they think though when trying to look at future driver moves.


I'm not entirely sure they think further than who they thought was best tbh. Not much else makes sense in the list other than Max being slightly ahead of Dan.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Bottas was awful most of this season to be fair, Kimi was poor and I’m not sure either deserve to be in the top 10. That said without looking into it I’d rate them pretty similar and it wouldn’t surprise me if I ended up rating Kimi’s season ahead of Bottas’ if I compared them in detail.


Broadly speaking Hamilton was better than Vettel this year, and Bottas was closer to Hamilton than Raikkonen was to Vettel.

I do feel Bottas was better than Raikkonen.

Was he? Genuine question here but I recall Bottas not being within half a second of Hamilton for quite a while in qualifying post-summer break. I don’t know if Kimi was that far off his teammates pace.

Kimi was further behind Vettel, I can't help but feel a double standard gets involved here without people realising it?

I make it very close in qualifying, almost identical season averages away from their teammate. Not sure about the races but I’d guess that would be close too as Vettel normally dominates Kimi in the races and as lamo picked up on very early in the season Bottas has been shocking on one tyre compound almost every GP.

They’ve both been abysmal this year tbh.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm 
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I wonder if the team bosses saw Kimi's season through sympathetic eyes; a different (better) strategy in Monaco and being allowed to attack an ailing Vettel when vastly quicker in Hungary and all of a sudden Kimi is a multiple race winner again and there is life in the old dog yet. He still wasn't good enough over the year for me, and I don't think Bottas particularly covered himself in glory (especially post summer break, which is probably fresher in the mind when coming to vote on these things) but i'd still put Bottas higher.

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