KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
For me, there's no one on that list who belongs there any more than the big 3 of the current era (Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel). Just need to remove the rose tint some times.
Funny how in this case, I'm going to defend Hamilton actually. Out of the 3, I think that his legacy is the most secure.
Hamilton has GOAT level statistics and and has proved himself against great teammates (Alonso, Button, Rosberg), coming out on top against all of them. You can't really dispute his greatness at this point.
Alonso and Vettel don't tick the box in at least one category. Alonso does not have GOAT level statistics. Vettel does, but hasn't proved himself against a variety of teammates.
Alonso has gone 11 years without a title and has burned bridges with his team more than once. That's a stick you can always beat him with. You can beat Vettel with the Ricciardo stick unless he goes up against him again and beats him. If Vettel beats Ricciardo in equal cars in 2019, it will do his reputation a world of good.
It's not a great stick when it's not a spec series, he's been in two of the biggest teams during that time but they've never given him the quickest car and he's returned to 2 of the 3 teams he supposedly burnt bridges with.
The problem with debates like this is it assumes everyone worships stats. This isn't tennis where everyone has equal opportunity to achieve those stats, you're a total slave to what your team provides you in this game. Swap his cars with Lewis or Seb's and who do you think has the stats?.
Once we know how good they are the stats are just a reflection of their machinery and how long they sat in the best cars. By saying how do we decide who's the best and saying someone's in the conversation because of their stats and someone's in the conversation despite their stats you're already answering the question yourself.
It's a lot easier to imagine Alonso beating Webber or Rosberg and sitting here as a 4-7xwdc with 70+wins and poles than it is to imagine what the other two could achieve in Alonso's cars simply because it throws up far more questions by virtue of where those cars were, both mentally and ability-wise.
It's not that they couldn't, I personally think Lewis would and Seb could, but you get that it raises more questions than 'can he beat that team mate' as that's what it took to achieve the vast majority of those poles and wins in the best car. Just beating Massa doesn't give you 2012 for example.
As ever it's an endless debate and there is no right or wrong answer but comes down to what you like I guess. I was always more Clark and Senna rather than Schumacher so my lack of fondness stat wise is ingrained and makes me almost biased against it.
I'm having a Lewis week this week and think he's the current best but it's got SFA to do with his stats. I'd have rather he went to RB in 2013 and beat Seb and be sitting here as a 2xwdc with 30 wins and poles(or whatever) than what he has now. And I'd bet his stock would be higher right now despite having half the stats.