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I'm going to quote lamo here because he puts it better than I can:

Alonso is 36, Hamilton is 32 and Vettel is 30. They have all done more races and more seasons than Senna by now. There's more than enough data to judge them.

You've pointed out why (at the moment) none of them 'deserve' to be in the top 10 list.

Lewis showed serious shortcomings in '11 (and made himself look silly tweeting telemetry desperately trying to explain why he was out-qualified by Button) etc. etc.....

Seb was beaten by Ric. when the car didn't suit him - even though he was established at the team and should have been able to find a way around his car problems.

Alonso's arrogance has been his downfall, and the catalyst for teams with top drivers deciding that regardless of his driving skills - they have no interest in employing him.

My top 10 would be

Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Prost, Clark, Alonso, Stewart, Ascari, Hamilton and Moss.

Vettel would be just outside - 11th or 12th.

Ha, that's almost the exact same as me. The only exception is that I have Lauda instead of Moss in my top 10.

To be fair to Webber, 2009 was a struggle.
The effects of the broken leg on his pre-season shouldn't be overlooked.

You are grasping at straws if you think that this proves Lewis doesn't belong in the top 10.

All the great drivers have flaws. Prost, Senna and Schumacher all deliberately took out a rival at one point in their careers; something Lewis has never done.

Lewis had one bad season in 2011, but otherwise beat Button convincingly in both 2010 and 2012.

If you are going to judge that Lewis is not a top 10 driver based on what he did in 2011 or Spa 2012, then Lewis will probably never be a top 10 driver in your eyes.

I find it difficult to place candidates who I've never seen drive before, so although I think the records of drivers like Fangio and Clark should entitle them to top ten status, I have no real idea of where they fit overall.

So with that in mind, my top ten would be something like:

Senna
Schumacher
Prost
Alonso
Vettel
Piquet (pre '87. After his accident he was not the same IMO)
Hamilton
Mansell

...Fangio & Clark somewhere in the mix above, just not sure where. Everything below Alonso isn't set in stone, either.

Although Hamilton's not my favourite driver by a long shot and things like his telemetry tweets and mind games don't help with that, I think you're being unfair to him as a driver by counting those against him in terms of where he rates among the best drivers. Alonso I feel also has had more than his fair share of bad luck, which plays a great part in terms of knowing whether a team will come good in future. If e.g. he'd chosen Red Bull in 2009 he may well have been a 6 times WDC by now and the fact he's not is not down to his driving ability IMO.

Good point.

For us relatively 'newbies' - our personal lists depend on not only the years we've watched F1, but also the opinion of those who've been watching for decades longer.

Fortunately for this forum, there are still a few around - even though we've lost POBR .

Unfortunately for this forum, they seem to post less nowadays.

I've never really thought about my, personal top 10 as I only started watching in '98 (?), and so am unable to judge earlier drivers. But I respect the opinion of those who were watching at the time, and are still watching.

Why am I being unfair? We're talking about top 10 GOATs, and '11 was a serious failure when he fell prey to his own arrogance.

Re. Alonso, I repeat "Alonso's arrogance has been his downfall, and the catalyst for teams with top drivers deciding that regardless of his driving skills - they have no interest in employing him".

In short, both (along with Seb) have serious question marks when it comes to top 10 GOATs. We need to wait until the end of their career (unlike most top 10 GOATs?) to decide where they 'fit in' the list.

You won't find 10 F1 drivers to put ahead of him with perfect careers.

I don't see why you have to wait to the end of their careers. You do for a definitive position but you can just as easily judge where they stand right now.

Eventually you'll realise that it's the exact same narrative for Hamilton

_________________
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FA#14

That's a bit silly. Vettel has only ever left the Red Bull camp, who raised and nurtured him into the driver he has become. Alonso didn't leave Renault in acrimonious circumstances either

I don't expect Vettel to ever have a fall out with Ferrari but it's still a bit soon to make statements like the above when he has effectively only ever parted with one team

_________________
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I rely on Prost



FA#14

Would BMW Sauber count? I don't remember the terms of his leaving that team at the time

He was only ever loaned to BMW Sauber.

You've already forgotten '06 - when Alonso said something along the lines of the team were against him?

It's a shame, but Alonso is largely the author of his own misfortunes. And yes, I do think it's unfortunate, as he's otherwise a great driver and without the serious arrogance/personality issues - would likely have more WDCs and likely end up in the 'top 10'.

Thanks, I couldn't quite remember the situation, only that his first go at F1 was with them.

Exactly.

It reminds me of how '07 is being 're-written' - but at least this time it's being argued in the present.

It's not unusual to re-evaluate past events when you receive new information.

I think Hamilton's '11 should be 'personal issues' rather than 'arrogance'. Personal issues that he has since got on top of, and IMO has used to become the strongest mentally in the current field.

I don't believe top teams have no interest in employing Alonso, either. He just joined the top teams at the wrong times.

He joined McLaren expecting them to deliver, but they delivered him a teammate which meant you had arguably the two best drivers in the same team. When has that ever ended on friendly terms?
Went to Renault where he had previously won 2 WDCs.
Went to Ferrari, the biggest team in F1, who never gave him a car to win a WDC (although he did a fair attempt at it in '12).
Left Ferrari to join the McLaren Honda project, yet another huge team, but the engine was absolutely horrific.

I see no evidence there of teams being afraid to touch him. Brawn targeted Hamilton for the Merc seat which gave them the star they wanted, Red Bull went with a promote their own strategy around the time they started to be considered a team you'd really want to drive for.

I think your definition of GOAT is based on hazy memories, as are most people's. People are inclined to be more forgiving of those in the past than they are of those of today.

It's not a great stick when it's not a spec series, he's been in two of the biggest teams during that time but they've never given him the quickest car and he's returned to 2 of the 3 teams he supposedly burnt bridges with.

The problem with debates like this is it assumes everyone worships stats. This isn't tennis where everyone has equal opportunity to achieve those stats, you're a total slave to what your team provides you in this game. Swap his cars with Lewis or Seb's and who do you think has the stats?.

Once we know how good they are the stats are just a reflection of their machinery and how long they sat in the best cars. By saying how do we decide who's the best and saying someone's in the conversation because of their stats and someone's in the conversation despite their stats you're already answering the question yourself.

It's a lot easier to imagine Alonso beating Webber or Rosberg and sitting here as a 4-7xwdc with 70+wins and poles than it is to imagine what the other two could achieve in Alonso's cars simply because it throws up far more questions by virtue of where those cars were, both mentally and ability-wise.

It's not that they couldn't, I personally think Lewis would and Seb could, but you get that it raises more questions than 'can he beat that team mate' as that's what it took to achieve the vast majority of those poles and wins in the best car. Just beating Massa doesn't give you 2012 for example.

As ever it's an endless debate and there is no right or wrong answer but comes down to what you like I guess. I was always more Clark and Senna rather than Schumacher so my lack of fondness stat wise is ingrained and makes me almost biased against it.

I'm having a Lewis week this week and think he's the current best but it's got SFA to do with his stats. I'd have rather he went to RB in 2013 and beat Seb and be sitting here as a 2xwdc with 30 wins and poles(or whatever) than what he has now. And I'd bet his stock would be higher right now despite having half the stats.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I have been laughing at the "uncorrected for accuracy" version all weekend. Apparently there is indeed and alternate universe!

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It's impossible to deny that he has said a few stupid things out of frustration over the years. But there was never any kind of bust up at Renault. They've always had great time for him. And his McLaren contract was signed many months before he made that particular remark, so it didn't play any role in his departure

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14

My list is from the mid eighties on wards (what I have seen) so it misses early eighties Piquet and Lauda.

Senna
Schumacher
(these two are cemented to the top of my list, the rest is subject to move)
Prost
Alonso*
Hamilton*
Vettel*
Mansell
Hakkinen
Rosberg
Button

*can potentially overtake Prost still

This is probably a bit harsh on the 1990's and early 2000's drivers, but Schumacher made most of them look pretty average overall. Honorable mentions to Raikkonen, Montoya and Barrichello.

This is just my opinion ! But ......
I was a Prost fan, and eventually a Senna fan. They were the yin and yang <?> of drivers at that time.
Prost "The professor", and Senna "The raw emotion of racing".

Both were probably equal as far as production, but it was how they got those results.
Prost really depended on thinking his way through a race, he was calculated, and probably ushered in the more technical aspect of racecraft.
Senna was raw talent, charged with emotion and pure skill.

I think Senna was the last of the pure "racers".

Both drivers were great talents, and I cannot really pick betweeen the 2 for results .. but I know my favorite became Senna because of the pureness of his racing.

Put it this way ... If I knew I needed to get across London quickly ...... If I had a day's notice, I would have Prost plan it and drive me.
If it was a right now situation, I would be throwing the keys to Senna.

Hamilton's problems in Russia and Monaco can be related to the car itself, issues now that Bottas is having, the car is very inconsistent in performance, with Mercedes you don't know what you are going to get before the car turns up for just about any race, how did Vettel perform in 2014 when the car was not right for him?

What you are simply doing here is just an over simplication, clearly a case can be made here also for the Ferrari being the more consistent and with that the better car.

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I think you had a logic fail there by using the same criteria you get Hamilton > Rosberg, in this instance we know the cars are the same so are equal.

From your standpoint we not only have Vettel > Hamilton but also Mercedes > Ferrari.

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Strange I've never seen threads saying that the Ferrari is a dominant car.

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I seem to be at odds with many of your posts but with this post you totally nailed it, sometimes I can be a bit sceptical of posters but in future I will take on board more of what you say.

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Alonso has the reputation for being a team within a team.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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well, speaking of logic fails, if the Ferrari is better than the Mercedes then it would be quite hard to say Vettel > Hamilton, as then he should be leading the title.

I think Vettel is better, but I think the differences are fairly small. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I think that if they swapped seats we'd probably be seeing Vettel winning his 5th title. He's proven in the past that he's no slouch in winning from pole, either and the Merc is the car to be in from a qualifying perspective.

If you take the view that Vettel and Hamilton are fairly equal, then it's not so hard to imagine that the Mercedes is the slightly better car overall.

And I've never eaten a pine cone, how very strange. And relevant.

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The problem with comparing today's drivers with those of the past is that we know far, far more about them and about what actually happened.

In Bygone times we only knew the result and what we read or hear about things through official channels.
Go back to the earlier days and we don't have much of a clue as to what really went on. How much was choreographed, how much was one driver favoured, even down to if it was a very rich driver or otherwise, how much of their own money did they spend on bringing something they themselves to their car and not the other car?

It is not that long since team bosses said 'no we cannot do that, we can not afford it this year'. There is also much that happened in teir personal lives that affected the drivers, and the way they interacted with others.

It is said today, usually jokingly (or half so) that a driver let one driver past to get a drive with their team and blocked the following car.

I remember waiting for a mag each week or month, which was the only way we knew anything except the published result. I also remember going to some venues and seeing some of the background stuff, and it was not what it was portrayed in the movies, or seen in the Sky warm up today.

We really can not compare what we know and what we were told.

So your view is exactly as I defined it.

It's very hard to get seasons were the best cars are so close in performance, I believe this is one of those seasons and was a great battle between Hamilton and Vettel let the best man win sort of thing, but no we have to have caveats in favour of one driver.

It's clear that the Mercedes has some great strengths but also some great weaknesses, but it's the strengths that are highlighted and the weaknesses that are ignored, and it's the Mercedes in need of a big redesign and not the Ferrari.

This was as close to a 50/50 battle as you could hope to have with Ferrari/Vettel dropping the ball in the last 3 races, 2 of which he probably wins.

It's a shame the narrative has to be that Hamiton was both lucky and also in the best car to win the title, it goes against Hamilton being the special driver you called him.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14

There's only a caveat if you make one. If you see that Mercedes does indeed have a qualifying advantage, why is it wrong to call it out?

The advantage Mercedes has is small, but it is still there. The fact is that both Vettel and Hamilton are special - the way they dominate their team mates attests to that. And at this level a small advantage is significant. But it doesn't mean that the driver is able to cruise. Everything is not a binary choice and having a small advantage doesn't mean that the driver is then 2nd rate.

Great discussion and a lot of interesting posts. Some of it could be considered off-topic but personally, I see no issue in threads taking a bit of a detour and I still think it's mainly relevant in ranking who is becoming the best of the era.

Regarding the topic, I'd make one general point that Hamilton and Vettel are certainly not hurting their cases in the ongoing season. Vettel has put together a couple of very strong seasons now since joining Ferrari including 2017 and Hamilton himself has impressed. Both continue to consolidate their standing as truly great drivers and there remains time for them to continue to make a difference and showcase their talents.

I think both drivers have shown clear evolution over the last few seasons. Hamilton has really learned to manage his racing in a greater variety of ways and with more composure, and Vettel is successfully helping to lead a team himself back into a position that has promise of Championship glory. Both, however, may need to accept in the near future a tougher team-mate and it might have to happen concurrently. If one team upgrades substantially then the WCC will likely be out of reach for the other team barring a rather substantial car advantage. Right now, Bottas and Kimi kinda cancel each other out but things probably change if you switch Bottas with Ricciardo - I see Ricc as in the sort of.. half a notch below the current multiple world champs and half a notch above everyone else category, with the exception being Verstappen who might already be in the process of maturing to a level equal to that of Ricc or approaching the multiple world champs.

That's a very poetic and fascinating way to put it and describe the differences and yet parity between the two racers. I guess though that the extra sort of thrilling, immediate and sensory nature of Senna presents a more romantic and compelling perception for most - and most of us tend to love our brilliant and otherworldly performances in sport as the ultimate expression of sporting talent and genius. In other words, there's more to it than being equally productive and that's even assuming equal conditions; it's also much about how one produces.

...and what you're saying is relevant?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 2nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)