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I counted:
- China: Bottas and Raikkonen
- Canada: Raikkonen
- Austria: Raikkonen
- Belgium: Bottas, Raikkonen
- Italy: Raikkonen

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Here I read a list of days Ricciardo finished higher than he should have. To be pedantic the Ricciardo-Red Bull package shouldn't be beating the Bottas-Merc or Kimi-Ferrari packages - particularly when it's within the drivers' hands like in your list

And the Ferraris were better than the Red Bulls at Monza. Dan came from 16th on the grid FFS

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FA#14

- The Bulls were very competitive in Canada - Verstappen also beat Kimi and Bottas, so I wouldn't class that as putting the car where it didn't belong.
- Didn't Kimi have a spin in Canada? Ricciardo picking up the pieces
- I don't see Belgium as out-performing the car. Kimi was behind by virtue of taking a penalty, while both Kimi and Ricciardo took Bottas at the restart, which leans more towards Bottas losing concentration than Ric performing miracles. Once the order was set, it was very hard to overtake
- I'm trying to remember Austria, if I'm honest. Will have to look it up again!
- Monza - the Ferraris were quite poor relatively speaking. Again, I don't think the Bulls were operating at a particular disadvantage there

I'm not trying to knock the guy as he's definitely performed admirably, but I don't think he's put the car where he shouldn't have, that's all. He's a points hoover, though, that's for sure

Both Bulls out-qualified both Ferraris at Monza. In what way were the Ferraris better?

The Bulls were not bad in Canada but given how far Vettel was behind after the first lap, given his damage (worth at least 3-4 tenths per lap) and given how he came very close to overtaking Ricciardo, I'd say the Ferrari was definitely better and even with a spin Raikkonen could have gotten the better of Ricciardo if he had been as fast as Vettel.

Belgium... Might have a point. Monza, I wouldn't say so. The Ferrari's were poor compared to Mercedes, but would still have been second best. Ricciardo did have an excellent strategy.

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Wet qualifying vs dry race, though.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

For certain, Verstappen is not solely to blame for every problem. But he may contribute to some which increases the number of problems. But give the guy a break.... he is still young and once as experienced as Ricciardo.....

He was clearly better than Vettel in the same car.

The Ferraris were well down on the Mercs, though. They were clearly sub par. And Ricciardo was closing in on Vettel at the end. It just seems more likely to me that the Ferraris weren't that quick than that Ricciardo suddenly put in a super-human performance

Even though the Red Bull is almost always a lot slower than the Ferrari?

Ferrari are normally a lot closer to Mercedes - just look at the previous race, just one week before. But they were much slower at Monza. Ricciardo was close on pace with the Ferraris, but still quite far back from the Mercs. So either the Mercs and Red Bulls both improved significantly at Monza, or the Ferrari suffered a setback. Law of probability suggests it's the Ferraris that were sub par, especially since Vettel at least is almost always a fair bit quicker than Ricciardo.

Even Toto Wolff thought it was the Ferraris that didn't get it right, rather than that everyone else leapfrogged them

He's outscored Vettel over the last 8 races.

There's no question he's done very well. But that's not what I was debating

How can you outperform the car when your teammate has looked faster all year? Truly every time Ricciardo has had a good result this year, my first thought is how much better Max would have done if something didn't happen to him. At Singapore there is little doubt Max would have pushed Lewis more, especially in those conditions. Thing is; something bad has happened to Max almost every weekend this year. What will happen when he finally has a few clean races? Where will Ricciardo be finishing then, in front or behind Max?

It's crazy how few clean races for both there have been, it's even less than 2015 McLaren pair who had 7. I think it's 2-1 to Max with Monaco to Dan and China and GB for Max.

The only other one they've both finished is Italy and I guess it depends on your view on the Massa incident. I personally gave it to Dan so it's 2-2 in my book but as it wasn't strictly clean I didn't include it.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Well, they've shared a clean weekend once this season, and Ricciardo finished ahead...

Outperforming the car is a meaningless term; what it really means is outperforming the other drivers. In that regard, both Max and Dan could easily be getting more out of their car than a representative sample of the rest of the grid would.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Including Qualifying it goes down to 1 clean result yeah, it's completely mental for a top team in the modern era with it being 14 race weekends into the season.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Well nobody actually "out performs their car" so to speak. What they actually do is outperform drivers in faster cars to a point they overcome the car deficit.

But that doesn't sound quite as snappy.

I'd even call China draw. Ric was flying at the end of that race and it took a dodgy move from Max to keep him behind at the chequered flag.

Monaco saw Ric bang in some lightning laps after Max stopped and at GB Max simply just out drove Ric.

I like the Prost / Senna comparison. Verstappen (Senna) is quick and sometimes slightly gungho whereas Ricciardo (Prost) is clean and gives the impression he likes the race to come to him.

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2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Dan is the man.
I think he is top notch, up with Alonso and Hamilton.
He has never been in a top car, yet has a reputation as a great over taker. He rarely makes mistakes.
Yes he has made a few dodgy moves from too far back in the past, however some stuck. Other drivers would have probably just sat behind.
Some have questioned his wet driving skills, however he has been outstanding in the wet on more than a few occasions. Monaco 2016. Or Japan 2014, he was fastest on track catch the Mercs when Jules had his off.

I think his relative performance to Max has been more motivational than anything. This is his 4th year at Red Bull and every year they have talked up having a title contending car. (compared to say Vettel that in his first year at Red Bull was in title contention and probably would have won if that season is as long as the seasons today. 17 races in 2009 vs 19-21 now) He also wasn’t happy with the handling of the 2017 car for the first 4-5 races.

Give him a car capable of winning the title and he will do it.
His 3rd (best of the rest behind Merc) in the WDC in 2014 and 2016 were awesome performances over a season.

Check Dan Vs Alonso (in The Ferrari) from Germany 2014. Great hard but fair racing!

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I support: Ricciardo
I also like: Perez, Hulk, Sainz, Button and Alonso
I respect: Ham, Vettel and Max

On China, Dan wasn’t happy with the level of front wing at the start. (he was complaining of understeering) They adjusted his front wing in the pit stop and then he was much faster than Max in the closing stages of the race.

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I support: Ricciardo
I also like: Perez, Hulk, Sainz, Button and Alonso
I respect: Ham, Vettel and Max

The speed difference between Max and Daniel is smaller than the difference between Senna and Prost used to be so probably not an apt comparison. Maybe Button/Barichello is more apt with Daniel as Jenson and Max as Reubens.

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I was amazed that there has only been one totally trouble free weekend when you include qualifying and the race. But Verstappen messed up 1 of them himself in Hungary. And even in Italy, although the team already and penalties, Verstappen made an optimistic move on Massa that was just too much. But I think Hungary was the only other weekend aside Monaco where they could have gone through qualifying and the race without problems. But Verstappen ended that possibility.

It still is shocking the amount of laps they have both been together on track. So few compared to other teams.

Verstappen's struggles at Monza were of his own making.

Yeah it's been disappointing to be honest. I was really looking forward to this intra team battle but we have been deprived for so many reasons. I blame Max for Monza. His stubbornness needs to tone down. Dan showed him how to go through the field unscathed. Dan's race craft is superior than Max's at the moment. But I'm afraid that's the only thing he's better than Max at.

I believe Max's tires were a couple of laps older. And there was a Haas car (Grosjean I think) in front of him during most of the second stint and he never got a blue flag because he couldn't get within 1 sec of it. Max was complaining about it on the radio.

Kleefton - would Max have pushed Lewis more with a gearbox that RBR initially thought would die before half race distance and they were amazed Dan managed to bring the car home at all?

Without that - I'm sure Dan would have been pushing Lewis more as well

Seeing as how Ricciardo is usually poor in the wet one would expect yes.

Poorer than his team mate(s) really, rather than poor. And his team mates have all been known as wet weather specialists except Kvyat. He was close to Max in Monza qualifying.

Bottas is poor in the wet.

RB's issue in Singapore outside of the gearbox was they couldn't use the kerbs like they did in qualifying which hurt them.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

In this context it is the poorer than the team mate bit that is relevant TBF.

It is yeah but you just said he was poor. If you'd said poorer (than Max) it wouldn't have jumped out at me.

Not a big thing obviously but I think he gets a bit of undue stick for wet weather driving.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Max would probably have pushed hard and broken the gear box.

Is that even possible with the semi automatic gearboxes on modern F1 cars?

Ricciardo said in the presser that he wasn't losing that much time due to the gearbox, that it wasn't what made the difference. He said he just didn't have the pace to match Hamilton. Let's not forget that he pulled away from Bottas easily, so he wasn't exactly crawling out there.

Anyone can pull away from Bottas.

Sick burn, mate.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Thoughts on Ricciardo's recent form? You can argue he should have bested Hamilton (who is in very good form, yes) over the last two races. He did have an issue in Singapore, but how about Malaysia?

Or you could argue that Verstappen made the difference in KL. Both Red Bulls were a chunk down in Quali....

Malaysia wasn't particularly impressive, IMO. With the Ferraris out of the way, it should have been a relatively straightforward 1-2. I don't think Red Bull did Ricciardo any favours by leaving him out so long, but there again that's often been his strategy, so that he can pile on the pressure at the end. Only this time, he didn't. Threw away a 2nd step, IMO

I think that given Hamilton's gap to Bottas and the general long run pace that Verstappen, Hamilton and Vettel had relatively similar race pace per machinery. Ricciardo never even reached Hamilton and Verstappen even had pace to burn at the front but managed his race. I'd say Verstappen was far ahead of Ricciardo as Hamilton was to Bottas.

Probably something like Max = Seb > Lewis >> Dan >> Val for the race.