planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:34 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm
Posts: 5050
Banana Man wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


I believe Norway and Sweden are banning the sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2025 onward. This is somewhat more viable as they are smaller, more affluent countries. Living as close as I do to the M27, this can't come soon enough.

Anyway, this is good news for Fe. If I was running the series I'd run it like this

- No chassis or aero development what-so-ever. The challenge should be 100% focused on power storage and delivery. Want to keep costs down? Eliminate the need for any carbon fibre and wind tunnel facilities.
I think this is what they're doing isn't it? Agag really is pushing for PU development, especially battery technology.

Quote:
- Get rid of the 2 car system. Change batteries instead as that adds a technical challenge of making batteries which can be quickly changed.
Again, I think this is the end goal, create batteries that last full race difference. They went against battery changes originally due to safety concerns with shocks. I think that without chassis development, it is impossible to allow teams to switch batteries.
Quote:
- Race at proper circuits. Everyone came to a grinding halt at turn one in NY and bashed into each other, looked ridiculous.
I'd be all for this, the only problem being that with the slower speeds of FE cars, it would not as good a spectacle and have far fewer laps per race with the 1 hour time limit so not as good for spectators at the track. It was also a decision from the start for whatever reasons to race within cities (which I guess is why they race in Mexico city with it being a city track).

Quote:
With the above 2 points in mind, strategy will come in to it more. At the moment, everyone makes one stop within a lap of each other. If you have longer distances and changeable batteries, do you go lighter with fewer batteries and more pit stops? This will put the emphasis on manufacturers to develop batteries and more efficient motors. The winners will be the ones who get the most power into the smallest, lightest batteries.
Yep, this is what I'm waiting for too.

Quote:
F1 style elimination for qualy with a 2005 style twist. You start the race with the batteries you qualify on and you can't charge them once Q3 begins. Again, it mixes up strategy. Do you go for fewer batteries and a lighter car but stop earlier or do a long stint and keep track position later on.
It would be good, but isn't really feasible on the city tracks they use due to the narrowness of them. If they did move to proper circuits, then they could do this.
Quote:
- Get rid of fan boost and have a GP3 DRS style system. X number of hits per race.
Couldn't agree more, but they're trying to tap into the younger, social media audience who I'm guessing like it, even if us old timer motorsport fans don't.

I agree with all the ideas, but unfortunately, the against the ethos of the direction Agag wants to take the series.

Back to the main topic though. Good news for FE and I do wonder how competative they with be compared to the teams already established. Could we also see a Rosberg return with this news? Less commitment needed than in F1 to compete so he will still have his family time if he does compete.

(p.s. I feel for you living near a motorway. My gran used to live in a small village just south of London and about a mile from the M25, but she lived there for about 50 years before they built it an wasn't happy when they did.

_________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1702
ALESI wrote:
Yeah, absolutely. As it happens I do have a drive and a garage, but I've lived places before where I didn't and like you couldn't even guarantee to be able to park on the same street as I lived. Actually a lot of people have this situation, and it's going to be a major hurdle. Unfortunately, in the rush to advance technology, reality is being ignored...

As for the $4m budget for formula e, I wonder how long that will last. Honestly, you can see a mile off what's going to happen here. All the manufacturers want to play, then once they are all in they will start making demands about how they are going to leave and how thy can't possibly spend less than $100m if they want to develop the tech... the governing body will capitulate as always.

It's interesting that they chose to make formula e a sort of F1 lite design, you'd think they could have come up with something a bit better really. As it is it looks like a rubbish F1 with silly mudguards.


I don't think reality is being ignored at all. I read a great article yesterday, the point was basically if you give people a challenge they'll find a solution (very, very simplified version) and it looked at US cars through the years and how they seem to magically find a way to become efficient whilst increasing power output every time they need to. And when they don't need to, they don't.

In the UK, chances are the technology will beat the regulation. At the rate things are changing, 23 years is a hell of a long time. I see absolutely zero risk on viable solutions being in place by then.

For the countries targeting 2025 I'd see much bigger risks. But again too many people are looking at this through a "today" lens. They're going to need to find a way to get fully electric cars without inconveniencing people, and I'd bet it looks nothing like things do today (which I agree - the reason most don't have it, is because its simply not practical for them to have it).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1618
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

But one thing is obvious, the traditional gasoline or diesel powered car is on the way out, it is just a matter of time.


You can say that about ANY technology whatsoever. It's not a profound statement and it doesnt support any idea that the auto industry is 100% going to be electric in the future. There are massive, absolutely massive problems charging cars for people who do not have a place to put their car. It is so easy to say that some company or companies are going to solve this in the future. That's not a given. Talk like that is science fiction, not science.

If I recall correctly, Shanghai China has 5+ million cars (the city's population is 20+ million). A huge number of those are street parked. Installing millions upon millions of chargers for each car is a staggering expense. Maintaining those chargers adds even more to that.

When you add up all the money spent on that (for every city in the world), you diminish (significantly I suspect) any savings realized by the consumer by going electric.

It is just as likely, perhaps more so, that electric cars will supplement internal combustion engines, rather than outright replace them. Or, the time frame will well exceed our lifetime.

Of course gasoline engines are going to disappear at some point. Every technology does. One could have said that gasoline engines were going to disappear in the late 1800's.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
minchy wrote:
Quote:
- Get rid of the 2 car system. Change batteries instead as that adds a technical challenge of making batteries which can be quickly changed.
Again, I think this is the end goal, create batteries that last full race difference. They went against battery changes originally due to safety concerns with shocks. I think that without chassis development, it is impossible to allow teams to switch batteries.
Quote:
- Race at proper circuits. Everyone came to a grinding halt at turn one in NY and bashed into each other, looked ridiculous.
I'd be all for this, the only problem being that with the slower speeds of FE cars, it would not as good a spectacle and have far fewer laps per race with the 1 hour time limit so not as good for spectators at the track. It was also a decision from the start for whatever reasons to race within cities (which I guess is why they race in Mexico city with it being a city track).

Quote:
F1 style elimination for qualy with a 2005 style twist. You start the race with the batteries you qualify on and you can't charge them once Q3 begins. Again, it mixes up strategy. Do you go for fewer batteries and a lighter car but stop earlier or do a long stint and keep track position later on.
It would be good, but isn't really feasible on the city tracks they use due to the narrowness of them. If they did move to proper circuits, then they could do this.


It's a good point regarding battery changes. Perhaps the rule should be that you cannot change the exterior shape of the car but you can have moveable panels etc. to allow battery access. Also you would need to make sure they can be changed safely, which I can't imagine would be too hard. So long as the batteries are designed so that the terminals couldn't short out against each other, it should be okay.

A gradual move towards longer, wider circuits surely must be the aim. Then we can move to a better qualy format.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

But one thing is obvious, the traditional gasoline or diesel powered car is on the way out, it is just a matter of time.


You can say that about ANY technology whatsoever. It's not a profound statement and it doesnt support any idea that the auto industry is 100% going to be electric in the future. There are massive, absolutely massive problems charging cars for people who do not have a place to put their car. It is so easy to say that some company or companies are going to solve this in the future. That's not a given. Talk like that is science fiction, not science.

If I recall correctly, Shanghai China has 5+ million cars (the city's population is 20+ million). A huge number of those are street parked. Installing millions upon millions of chargers for each car is a staggering expense. Maintaining those chargers adds even more to that.

When you add up all the money spent on that (for every city in the world), you diminish (significantly I suspect) any savings realized by the consumer by going electric.

It is just as likely, perhaps more so, that electric cars will supplement internal combustion engines, rather than outright replace them. Or, the time frame will well exceed our lifetime.

Of course gasoline engines are going to disappear at some point. Every technology does. One could have said that gasoline engines were going to disappear in the late 1800's.


I have a petrol car now but I don't have a fuel pump next to my house. I think the fact that a large number of people WILL be able to 'refuel' their cars at home should be seen as a massive bonus, not a problem. In fact there's a lot more to it than that, charging points could easily be fitted to car parks at airports, shopping centres, train stations, supermarkets, wherever you like. Just pull up, plug in, then pay for what you take when you pay your parking ticket.

The next big technical challenge, which scientists will aim to overcome in the next 2 decades is the charging time. If you can charge a car in sub 10 minutes, it wont be any different to stopping at a petrol station now.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1618
Banana Man wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

But one thing is obvious, the traditional gasoline or diesel powered car is on the way out, it is just a matter of time.


You can say that about ANY technology whatsoever. It's not a profound statement and it doesnt support any idea that the auto industry is 100% going to be electric in the future. There are massive, absolutely massive problems charging cars for people who do not have a place to put their car. It is so easy to say that some company or companies are going to solve this in the future. That's not a given. Talk like that is science fiction, not science.

If I recall correctly, Shanghai China has 5+ million cars (the city's population is 20+ million). A huge number of those are street parked. Installing millions upon millions of chargers for each car is a staggering expense. Maintaining those chargers adds even more to that.

When you add up all the money spent on that (for every city in the world), you diminish (significantly I suspect) any savings realized by the consumer by going electric.

It is just as likely, perhaps more so, that electric cars will supplement internal combustion engines, rather than outright replace them. Or, the time frame will well exceed our lifetime.

Of course gasoline engines are going to disappear at some point. Every technology does. One could have said that gasoline engines were going to disappear in the late 1800's.


I have a petrol car now but I don't have a fuel pump next to my house.


I can refuel my car with gasoline in under 2 mins. It's a non issue. The same cannot be said of alternative fuels.

Banana Man wrote:
I think the fact that a large number of people WILL be able to 'refuel' their cars at home should be seen as a massive bonus, not a problem. In fact there's a lot more to it than that, charging points could easily be fitted to car parks at airports,


I go to the airport a few times a year, not a feasible option.

Banana Man wrote:
shopping centres, train stations, supermarkets, wherever you like. Just pull up, plug in, then pay for what you take when you pay your parking ticket.


None of these "options" are even remotely feasible compared to driving up to a fuel station and spending 2 minutes to re-fuel.

Banana Man wrote:
The next big technical challenge, which scientists will aim to overcome in the next 2 decades is the charging time. If you can charge a car in sub 10 minutes, it wont be any different to stopping at a petrol station now.


I agree. If you can re-charge a car (completely) in 10 minutes, then the issue is then solved for most people.

Cold weather climates also present a serious problem for electrical power. Battery power is directly related to temperature.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 4534
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Cold weather climates also present a serious problem for electrical power. Battery power is directly related to temperature.

While what you day is true the biggest adopters of full electric cars so far has been Scandinavian countries in general and Norway in particular. So I don't think it's as big an impediment as you're making out here.

As far a recharge time that's something that's being worked on by a lot of people coming at it from a lot of different directions. Everything from different battery chemistries to electrode and anode materials are being explored and as long as governments are pushing the auto manufactures to switch over there's money to be made for whoever can solve the problem best so there will be money spent on this avenue.

With accessibility there wasn't a whole lot of gas stations around in the 1890's but that didn't stop the infrastructure eventually being built up because there was a demand. While you put down the argument made above by talking about how many times you go to the airport a year you miss the point of the comment completely. If you look beyond any simple list that's put forward as examples you can see that the possibilities are endless. Having recharge points in the office parking lot could become a recruiting point for businesses to attract talent, parking meters could have charge points built in, the list goes on. It's only limited by your imagination and how willing to overlook the fact that if there's a way to make money off something there will be someone who's trying to do just that.

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
Herb Tarlik wrote:
I can refuel my car with gasoline in under 2 mins. It's a non issue. The same cannot be said of alternative fuels.

Banana Man wrote:
I think the fact that a large number of people WILL be able to 'refuel' their cars at home should be seen as a massive bonus, not a problem. In fact there's a lot more to it than that, charging points could easily be fitted to car parks at airports,


I go to the airport a few times a year, not a feasible option.

Banana Man wrote:
shopping centres, train stations, supermarkets, wherever you like. Just pull up, plug in, then pay for what you take when you pay your parking ticket.


None of these "options" are even remotely feasible compared to driving up to a fuel station and spending 2 minutes to re-fuel.

Banana Man wrote:
The next big technical challenge, which scientists will aim to overcome in the next 2 decades is the charging time. If you can charge a car in sub 10 minutes, it wont be any different to stopping at a petrol station now.


I agree. If you can re-charge a car (completely) in 10 minutes, then the issue is then solved for most people.

Cold weather climates also present a serious problem for electrical power. Battery power is directly related to temperature.


If we could recharge a battery in 2 minutes, everyone would have electric cars now, not in 2040.

I've no idea why you singled out airports as the only option, from the list of possibilities I suggested. I've also got no idea why plugging your car in for half an hour at a supermarket, shopping centre or other public car park "aren't even remotely feasible." Or at a train station if you commute, or the car park where you work. There are options out there to sort the vast majority of people. The only people who would have a problem are people who don't have a driveway and never use a car park.

Cold weather is a challenge but having a heating mechanism isn't the most difficult thing in the world.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 4534
Now back to the series itself...
What a lot of you are saying is what the series has planned/been doing. The first season was a complete spec car from the ground up, The second season allowed different power trains (electric motors, electronic controls, gearbox) while using the same chassis, tires, and battery all of which continued into the current (3rd) season. Season 3 also upped the regeneration rate from 100kw to 150kw and output was also increased.

Power is going to continue to go up (from 200kw to 250kw) over the next couple of years. I know I've read about the timeline to get to a one car per driver, and either in race recharging or running the higher output on a single charge, but can't find it now.

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
RaggedMan wrote:
Now back to the series itself...
What a lot of you are saying is what the series has planned/been doing. The first season was a complete spec car from the ground up, The second season allowed different power trains (electric motors, electronic controls, gearbox) while using the same chassis, tires, and battery all of which continued into the current (3rd) season. Season 3 also upped the regeneration rate from 100kw to 150kw and output was also increased.

Power is going to continue to go up (from 200kw to 250kw) over the next couple of years. I know I've read about the timeline to get to a one car per driver, and either in race recharging or running the higher output on a single charge, but can't find it now.



I'm aware that a lot of what I've said is in the pipeline.

I do like the double header races, I'd like to see them become a feature at every event TBH. Perhaps a reverse grid sprint race on the Sunday (a total reverse grid not the 1-8 like we have in F2) but with fewer points handed out. Would lead to a lot of overtaking with the fastest at the back.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1583
Location: Miami, Florida
And now it's being reported that Rosberg met with Fe management and it looks as though he's lined up to be team principal for Mercedes' Formula E team.
Good for him and pretty interesting.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2246
Banana Man wrote:

The next big technical challenge, which scientists will aim to overcome in the next 2 decades is the charging time. If you can charge a car in sub 10 minutes, it wont be any different to stopping at a petrol station now.


This is the clincher really, if you can achieve this then everything else will not matter (people not being able to park near their houses).

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm
Posts: 5050
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
And now it's being reported that Rosberg met with Fe management and it looks as though he's lined up to be team principal for Mercedes' Formula E team.
Good for him and pretty interesting.

I wondered if he would drive for them, but wow! Didn't see him doing that role. Like you said, good for him. And good to do it in what looks from the outside to be a much less cut throat series than f1.

_________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1583
Location: Miami, Florida
It might not be cut throat, but its long term viability is a concern for me. For some reason I see this as a pet peeve project for manufacturers to test the waters and gain PR points in the consumer market. Just a feeling. While we motorheads tend to keep an eye on it, I've not seen the commercial support for the series and if we look back at ChampCar/CART, that series had ALL the notoriety, extensively DEEP sponsorship and all the TV deals that allowed it to grow and thrive and from one day to another… it was gone. Formula E has nowhere near that kind of support and is keeping itself afloat on a much smaller budget so time will tell.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1702
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
It might not be cut throat, but its long term viability is a concern for me. For some reason I see this as a pet peeve project for manufacturers to test the waters and gain PR points in the consumer market. Just a feeling. While we motorheads tend to keep an eye on it, I've not seen the commercial support for the series and if we look back at ChampCar/CART, that series had ALL the notoriety, extensively DEEP sponsorship and all the TV deals that allowed it to grow and thrive and from one day to another… it was gone. Formula E has nowhere near that kind of support and is keeping itself afloat on a much smaller budget so time will tell.


I do think there comes a point when other series engulf it, but until then...

Probably a while away, as getting petrol head Motorsport fans away from the noise of engines will be a tough sell..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1583
Location: Miami, Florida
Speaking for myself, while I've watched Formula E races, I only do so when there's nothing else to watch… Kind of do the same with Indy these days too with the exception of a few races, I will NEVER want to not hear the roar of engines. For many of us it provides a burst of euphoria that nothing else can ever replicate. Not just F1 either. I LOOOOVE the 2-Stroke 125cc and 250cc motocycle engines as well as the deep, throaty 2-Cylinder sound made by other bikes like the Ducks, Hondas, Suzukis, and others, as well as all types of race cars, karts, dirtbikes, Outboard motors (if you've never heard on revving you're seriously missing out), and even RC engines!

yes, I might have a problem. :LOL:

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2246
Forgive my ignorance, are there any electric motorbike racing series?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7798
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm
Posts: 5050
moby wrote:
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.

Do they still make LPG cars? I know they used to, but I haven't seen an LPG filling station at a garage for over 10 years.

I guess this could be an option for road cars, but not taking into account the potential safety risks in a racecar using LPG, I can't see it being a thing they would ever use in Fe, it goes against the whole ethos of what they want as it's still made using fossil fuels. (and there's no need to start a discussion about most electricity being made with fossil fuels, Agag has answered that question numerous times - Fe's purpose is not to actually make electricity without fossil fuels, just to show what can be done with it and try and develop better ways of using it)

_________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7798
minchy wrote:
moby wrote:
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.

Do they still make LPG cars? I know they used to, but I haven't seen an LPG filling station at a garage for over 10 years.

I guess this could be an option for road cars, but not taking into account the potential safety risks in a racecar using LPG, I can't see it being a thing they would ever use in Fe, it goes against the whole ethos of what they want as it's still made using fossil fuels. (and there's no need to start a discussion about most electricity being made with fossil fuels, Agag has answered that question numerous times - Fe's purpose is not to actually make electricity without fossil fuels, just to show what can be done with it and try and develop better ways of using it)


Yeh, I agree with that, I was referring to the road car bit above. The aim of FE has to be to develop batteries and regen to the extent they can do a full race in respectable time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1618
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Speaking for myself, while I've watched Formula E races, I only do so when there's nothing else to watch… Kind of do the same with Indy these days too with the exception of a few races, I will NEVER want to not hear the roar of engines. For many of us it provides a burst of euphoria that nothing else can ever replicate. Not just F1 either. I LOOOOVE the 2-Stroke 125cc and 250cc motocycle engines as well as the deep, throaty 2-Cylinder sound made by other bikes like the Ducks, Hondas, Suzukis, and others, as well as all types of race cars, karts, dirtbikes, Outboard motors (if you've never heard on revving you're seriously missing out), and even RC engines!

yes, I might have a problem. :LOL:


Same here. The sounds of the race track are irreplaceable to me. That is why I utterly despise the current F1 engines. They are soulless.

I grew up at Road America, listening to the amazing sounds of IMSA GTP cars. Absolutely amazing cars. V-12 Jaguars were my favorite. Porsche 962C's were my second favorite. Despite being turbocharged, the 962C's were amazingly loud, often getting penalized for being above the noise regulations. One driver was black flagged for exceeding the track noise limits and on his in lap to retire the car, he ran over (and destroyed) the noise sensor! Awesome.

My appreciation for motorsports went off scale when I heard F1 engines in real life for the first time. Staggering, simply staggering. I'll never forget that first day. My appreciation was kept up during the change to the 3.0 liter engines, and to the V-8's, but it all died when I went to my first V-6 race. The lack of noise was startling.

I can't even imagine what an electric race would be like, with the near total lack of noise. I just can't wrap my head around that, nor can I see myself caring one whit about such a racing series.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:06 am
Posts: 125
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:06 pm
Posts: 207
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.


No, if anything it's star fuel as it was created by stars. It's recyclable though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:59 pm
Posts: 216
Exediron wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't think that big names entering Formula E should be considered a sign of them quitting other series just yet.

Erm Mercedes quit DTM to do this instead...

I'm aware. That doesn't make a pattern. And they have remained involved in many other varieties of motorsport that are not electric at the same time.

And now reports of Porsche leaving LMP1 to do formula E...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
Really incredible week when you think about it. Porsche pulling out of LMP1 and Merc from DTM is like Ferrari pulling out of F1 and Real Madrid from football.

Porsche, Merc, Jaguar, Audi, Renault... It's getting big.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 7706
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?

Quote:
The Chunichi Shimbun reported that Toyota’s battery will be able to charge in a few minutes and have a long range, but the article did not list specifics


https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/to ... ports-say/

_________________
eeee


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1618
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.


The vast majority of the electricity that will recharge these batteries will come from fossil fuels. Just going electric does automatically mean these cars are not powered by fossil fuels.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2499
Herb Tarlik wrote:
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.
The vast majority of the electricity that will recharge these batteries will come from fossil fuels. Just going electric does automatically mean these cars are not powered by fossil fuels.
There was an article a few weeks ago, from the BBC website (unable to link the source as I can't find it now!), stating that Britain had, for the first time, provided the grid with over 50% renewable energy. Fossil fuels may nit be dead for a while but we are going in the right direction.

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1618
tootsie323 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.
The vast majority of the electricity that will recharge these batteries will come from fossil fuels. Just going electric does automatically mean these cars are not powered by fossil fuels.
There was an article a few weeks ago, from the BBC website (unable to link the source as I can't find it now!), stating that Britain had, for the first time, provided the grid with over 50% renewable energy. Fossil fuels may nit be dead for a while but we are going in the right direction.


Very very doubtful.

From Wikipedia:

"The UK Government energy policy had targeted a total contribution from renewables to achieve 10% by 2010, but it was not until 2012 that this figure was exceeded; renewable energy sources supplied 11.3% (41.3 TWh) of the electricity generated in the United Kingdom in 2012."

Even if the UK went 100% renewable, that would represent about 0.01% of the world's electricity. China and India alone burn BILLIONS of tons of coal every year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4551
Location: Michigan, USA
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Even if the UK went 100% renewable, that would represent about 0.01% of the world's electricity. China and India alone burn BILLIONS of tons of coal every year.

While this is true, the UK is hardly the only country that is focusing on an increase in renewable energy. If the UK was at 100%, you'd have to expect the others to be close as well.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7798
Not really a lot to do with FE, but as we are talking about it here, --

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/06/bionic-leaf-turns-sunlight-into-liquid-fuel/

Although the article is old, I think its one for the future.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:59 pm
Posts: 216
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.

Is it derived from dead stuff? No it's not so not a fossil fuel!

Also the lithium isn't a fuel, it's a containment system for it (a complicated fuel tank). Also think the batteries are recyclable, so it's renewable in that it can be re used...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20999
Banana Man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didn't have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?

Clearly investment has to be made in infrastructure. In the Netherlands in the major cities you can barely move for charging points (well, maybe an exaggeration but the point is they are reasonably plentiful). And they are fairly cheap to top up your battery. Also, many garages have electric charging points and many companies even have a few guest spaces reserved for electric (or hybrid) vehicles. I was shocked when I went on a trip to the UK and found public charging points costing almost as much to "fill up" as a petrol car would. It's criminal exploitation. But in other northern European countries they already have far better infrastructure in place and this will only get better.



That will change with competition as does any commodity. Right now it's only a select number of people with the facilities but unlike petrol, there are many viable ways of generating electricity and any idiot can sell it.

Soon rival companies with pop up everywhere trying to make a quick buck from charging points and the price will come crashing down. Don't forget they wont need any oil tankers (and all the associated costs of drivers (who get paid a tonne for carrying hazardous material), maintenance, health and safety checks, the petrol they burn etc. etc.) or any petrol storage facilities (and the H&S nightmare which comes with that).

What we're looking at now is 1960s Pan Am, unrivaled luxury for the privileged elite. Give it 10 years and we'll have Ryanair and Easyjet.

true, but I suspect the major change will come via legislation and government sponsorship. Charging meters need to become ubiquitous and easily accessible for all, not reliant on private enterprise. The biggest issue facing potential electrical car ownership is probably range anxiety. Take that away and there's no impediment anymore. Tesla has shown that electric cars can be fun and practical and various countries have already demonstrated that building a viable infrastructure is relatively straightforward. So worrying about where and when to charge a car is looking at the problem with today's situation in mind and of course there would be issues if manufacturers started only selling electric vehicles without any kind of supporting infrastructure in place. There's no reason why it can't be done.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1618
Zoue wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didn't have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?

Clearly investment has to be made in infrastructure. In the Netherlands in the major cities you can barely move for charging points (well, maybe an exaggeration but the point is they are reasonably plentiful). And they are fairly cheap to top up your battery. Also, many garages have electric charging points and many companies even have a few guest spaces reserved for electric (or hybrid) vehicles. I was shocked when I went on a trip to the UK and found public charging points costing almost as much to "fill up" as a petrol car would. It's criminal exploitation. But in other northern European countries they already have far better infrastructure in place and this will only get better.





That will change with competition as does any commodity. Right now it's only a select number of people with the facilities but unlike petrol, there are many viable ways of generating electricity and any idiot can sell it.

Soon rival companies with pop up everywhere trying to make a quick buck from charging points and the price will come crashing down. Don't forget they wont need any oil tankers (and all the associated costs of drivers (who get paid a tonne for carrying hazardous material), maintenance, health and safety checks, the petrol they burn etc. etc.) or any petrol storage facilities (and the H&S nightmare which comes with that).

What we're looking at now is 1960s Pan Am, unrivaled luxury for the privileged elite. Give it 10 years and we'll have Ryanair and Easyjet.

true, but I suspect the major change will come via legislation and government sponsorship. Charging meters need to become ubiquitous and easily accessible for all, not reliant on private enterprise. The biggest issue facing potential electrical car ownership is probably range anxiety. Take that away and there's no impediment anymore. Tesla has shown that electric cars can be fun and practical and various countries have already demonstrated that building a viable infrastructure is relatively straightforward. So worrying about where and when to charge a car is looking at the problem with today's situation in mind and of course there would be issues if manufacturers started only selling electric vehicles without any kind of supporting infrastructure in place. There's no reason why it can't be done.



Most cars that cost 80-90K are fun to drive. Let's see how fun a 15-20k electric car is to drive.

Charging 4-5 million cars simultaneously in a city like Shanghai or Mexico City will be an enormous technical problem.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20999
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didn't have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?

Clearly investment has to be made in infrastructure. In the Netherlands in the major cities you can barely move for charging points (well, maybe an exaggeration but the point is they are reasonably plentiful). And they are fairly cheap to top up your battery. Also, many garages have electric charging points and many companies even have a few guest spaces reserved for electric (or hybrid) vehicles. I was shocked when I went on a trip to the UK and found public charging points costing almost as much to "fill up" as a petrol car would. It's criminal exploitation. But in other northern European countries they already have far better infrastructure in place and this will only get better.





That will change with competition as does any commodity. Right now it's only a select number of people with the facilities but unlike petrol, there are many viable ways of generating electricity and any idiot can sell it.

Soon rival companies with pop up everywhere trying to make a quick buck from charging points and the price will come crashing down. Don't forget they wont need any oil tankers (and all the associated costs of drivers (who get paid a tonne for carrying hazardous material), maintenance, health and safety checks, the petrol they burn etc. etc.) or any petrol storage facilities (and the H&S nightmare which comes with that).

What we're looking at now is 1960s Pan Am, unrivaled luxury for the privileged elite. Give it 10 years and we'll have Ryanair and Easyjet.

true, but I suspect the major change will come via legislation and government sponsorship. Charging meters need to become ubiquitous and easily accessible for all, not reliant on private enterprise. The biggest issue facing potential electrical car ownership is probably range anxiety. Take that away and there's no impediment anymore. Tesla has shown that electric cars can be fun and practical and various countries have already demonstrated that building a viable infrastructure is relatively straightforward. So worrying about where and when to charge a car is looking at the problem with today's situation in mind and of course there would be issues if manufacturers started only selling electric vehicles without any kind of supporting infrastructure in place. There's no reason why it can't be done.



Most cars that cost 80-90K are fun to drive. Let's see how fun a 15-20k electric car is to drive.

Charging 4-5 million cars simultaneously in a city like Shanghai or Mexico City will be an enormous technical problem.

Well my Golf GTE was pretty fun to drive and it costs less than half of what a Tesla did, while the new Model 3 will reportedly be cheaper still. It may not have been pure electric, but even as a petrol hybrid the electric component was noticeable and welcome. Technology will improve, that's pretty much guaranteed. The first iPhone was launched in 2007 and now you can barely imagine a world without smartphones (and yes, I know it wasn't the first smartphone, but it was among the first of the type we recognise today).

Charging large numbers of cars is simply a question of scale. Sure, if we expected everybody to switch over next Tuesday there would be issues. But with proper planning it's not an issue, which is why I said it requires government sponsorship and legislation. Norway is setting the bar, with 42% of new cars registered at the beginning of this year being electric, yet it hasn't plunged the country into a power crisis. Because the push is being driven by the government. Of course, it's not without its issues, as it's expensive for governments to subsidise for too long, but those are practical rather than technical matters and the point is that if tackled correctly there are no real barriers to adoption that can't be figured out even with today's technology


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 2189
Location: England
The infrastructure is already there for charging cars once they get the charge times down, because petrol stations will all gradually shift into becoming charge points. Battery tech is going to explode before long with the amount of money that is about to be pumped into it.

Pretty exciting times really, I honestly never thought i'd see fossil fuel even attempted to be abandoned en masse like is being planned in my lifetime.

_________________
http://tsatr.mooo.com
The Sun and The Rain - The reluctant runner.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20999
I think petrol stations will likely due out rather than convert to electric chargers. If people can "fill up" at home overnight then that will drastically reduce the number of external visits, especially if like me they can also charge at work. The refuelling scenario as we know it will become obsolete IMO


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2246
If petrol stations 'die out' where will the lorries buy their diesel from?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 6751
Sergio Marchionne said after the race that they were looking at a possible FE entry but it wouldn't be under the name Ferrari. They'd be looking to enter with either Alfa Romeo or Maserati.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20999
ALESI wrote:
If petrol stations 'die out' where will the lorries buy their diesel from?

Fair point. I should have explained what I meant better. I meant that people's refuelling habits will change, so they won't be visiting stations in the way they do now. Currently you have to go to a garage to tank up. But EVs give you the option to fill up at home, at the office, while shopping, visiting clients etc etc. (I speak from personal experience as i have done all of the above). You don't have to make a special trip to refuel but can fit it in alongside your other activities. So ultimately, visiting a special refuelling garage will become a thing of the past for pure EVs (not for hybrids, obviously), so in the fullness of time they will die out for personal use.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Placid and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group