planetf1.com

So that's why Alonso's decision was the right one!

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

This is the problem with some of my fellow Hamboys. Very touchy. I call a stupid comment a stupid comment and they overreact thinking I'm implying he's a moron. Lewis clearly isn't despite his attempts to convince the public otherwise.


Fixed.


Very loosely. Most second hand news broadcasters heavily editorialise the original into a tabloid style format to get clicks and view. Hence the term 'clickbait'.

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Unless i have lost all command of the English language, you clearly described Hamilton as "showing his stupidity".

Look. with this instinct versus intellect debate that often follows Hamilton, perhaps some of us Ham fans have little or no time for comments appearing to question his intelligence.. However, in hindsight, i can accept that you were in fact referring to the comment, as opposed to the person, so i agree, on this occasion, perhaps i was a little over zealous. Enough said, it's certainly not worth quibbling about.

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

Is he undermining Hamilton, though? Is it that terrible to say something that almost everyone else said at the time? Cast your mind back to 2012 when the announcement was made. Most reports were of Lewis being totally fed up with McLaren and looking to leave. There were reports of him knocking on the door of Red Bull and getting rebutted, but he was definitely desperate to leave. Everybody was citing the lost points and team errors as being responsible for Lewis' frustration.

I don't think Button is saying anything revelatory or controversial or disparaging in the slightest. People who see some calculated move by Lewis give drivers far too much credit IMO. No doubt he hoped for a good outcome, but it was by no means a foregone conclusion. Ferrari demonstrated that in spades last year. I'm sure Alonso was sold a good story by McHonda, but is it his fault that they haven't as yet delivered on that promise? And if their engineers had got it right, would that have made Alonso a genius? Or if Mercedes had not produced such a great package - which with the best will in the world is absolutely nothing to do with the drivers - would that in turn have made Lewis' move a stupid one and demonstrated his poor judgement?

At the time, Lewis was fed up with McLaren. That was pretty much common knowledge. And clearly Lauda and Brawn sold him a good story, which turned out to be true. But really the credit is probably more theirs than the driver's and it's only due to the fact he was so upset with McLaren that they got the opportunity to sell it to him in the first place. If Button, who was closer than most to the events, recalls it that way, how does it undermine Lewis?

I'm afraid you have fallen for an editorial bait!

Often junior hacks are pressured by their superiors to submit a lively or salacious article for publication. To remain employed and in the absence of any substantive or newsworthy events to entice readers, the hack will often fabricate a juicy story by drawing fallacious conclusions from innocuous quotes. The hack's editorial or bait states:



Firstly, leaving for the moment what Button actually said, the bait (or editorial comment) is false because it is a known fact, even before Mercedes became successful that Hamilton attributed Lauda and Brawn's promising appraisal of Mercedes' future prospects as a factor influencing his departure from McLaren. So in direct contradiction to the hack's editorial, Hamilton's decision was based on knowledge of the team's potential (indeed as imparted to Hamilton by Lauda and Brawn). The risk was Hamilton's to take.

So now that we have established that the premise of the article is false, did Button overtly or implicitly make the suggested claim as reported by the hack?

Button says:




A perusal of all the quotes attributed to Button's clearly confirms that Button is incapable of making an intelligent appraisal of McLaren and even at a mature 34 years of age can sometimes come across as a moronic teenager - "We're all emotional, he took it emotionally, but it has paid off". However, nowhere does Button say that " Lewis Hamilton's decision to join Mercedes was ...... not based on knowledge of the team's potential". Instead, Button explicitly says that an "emotional" Hamilton took a gamble - which is true and a complete NONE STORY!

Just to be clear, how could Button really have made such a claim as suggested by the editorial, since Button was not present in Hamilton's kitchen when Lauda and Brawn came calling!

whereas this is balanced and mature?

Well Ive thoroughly enjoyed Buttons insights into the state of Hamiltons mind when engaged in the decision making process; as carried by the BBC. Whilst also enjoying Skys interview with Button where he claims 'I dont know him really well. He's quite a private person.'

More mature than this which is clouded by your negative bias toward Hamilton:



The lost points and team errors were just the symptoms of a deeper organizational malaise. But I don't expect greater insights from you. Anybody with a modicum of knowledge about Maslow's Theory of Motivation and Organisational Behaviour 101 would understand why McLaren was and still is a place where driving talent goes to waste. While Button continues to delude himself, Hamilton took a gamble and deserves full credit for realising that he would never achieve self-actualization at McLaren.

Of course, Maslow's Theory of Motivation and Organisational Behaviour 101 is required reading for any F1 afficionado

You seem to feel that attacking others strengthens your case, but it only weakens it. Nothing in the above quotes from Button shows him to be a "moronic teenager." Why you feel the need to insult him simply for saying something which was fairly openly discussed at the time only you will know.

My "case" was based on a presentation of acknowledged facts and was not weakened in any way by my opinion of Button's communication skills, which is what drew my ire. I stand by my assertion that "We're all emotional, he took it emotionally, ........" is very poorly spoken English and not what I would expect from a 34-year-old native speaker. I don't recall you taking issue with insults aimed at Hamilton, however relevant they may have been, so your objection is duly noted for what it's worth.




It's fine if you don't wish to expand your horizons and understand the theory of motivation, but then your ignorance has led you to believe that just because the majority of people with an opinion thought it "wrong" for Hamilton to leave McLaren, somehow legitimises the option to stay. Hamilton's prospects at Mercedes might have been indeterminate, but his decision to leave McLaren was undoubtfully the correct move.

I agree that drivers who have been dropped are not in a strong position to pick up a better team but this was not made clear in your original post. I had the years mixed up for Button wanting to be released from his BAR-Honda contract and for Williams seeking to take up their option on him, so apologies for that! I'm simply arguing against the implication that Button has generally moved to a 'better' team, of which I can only see one concrete example (and that was as a WDC). By the way, that implication is what I interpreted from your original post so I may be wide of the mark. If we discount the occasions where he has been forcibly moved (dropped) we do not have enough examples to draw any definitive conclusion from.
Looking at it another way, drivers with a free choice would generally want to move to a batter team so Button's example is what I'd call fairly typical. I guess that, in the context of this thread, one may argue that Hamilton went against this with his move to Mercedes. For what it's worth, Jenson's stating that Hamilton's move was 'emotional' does imply that reason did not play a significant part and this I would disagree with. Mercedes sold Lewis a goal and a plan to achieve it; I believe that prospect of this - coupled with disillusion at McLaren - was the key factor in his decision. Emotion played a part but was not the ley factor by any means.

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Where I'm going, I don't need roads

It's substantially weakened because you chose to attack the messenger, rather than the message. There is nothing in the above to warrant calling Button a "moronic teenager." What he said is perfectly acceptable. And whatever position I may have taken with regard to perceived insults aimed at Hamilton is irrelevant to the current discussion.

And what on earth does saying what most people said at the time have anything to do with me expanding my horizons? And how does calling me ignorant validate your opinion? Once again, you are using insults instead of debating the point, which does nothing to enhance your point of view and indeed only undermines it.

In addition, you are arguing a strawman because nobody now, Button included, is saying that Lewis made the wrong move. He is talking about Lewis' motivation at the time, which is a completely different thing. Maybe if you spent more time focusing on the topic rather than on attacking people you might have noticed that.

Incidentally, as an aside, it's somewhat ironic that you liken Button to a moronic teenager for his allegedly poor spoken English when simply saying Lewis took it emotionally and then use the word "undoubtfully" instead of "undoubtedly" when explaining your reasoning. I doubt you'd appreciate being compared to a moronic teenager for a simple mistake and perhaps this might show you that the odd minor error in grammar or syntax shows one to be only human. It doesn't deserve such self-righteous condemnation

I can't believe this is still an issue with certain elements of the media and fans.

Lewis was disillusioned with the McLaren set up. They had single-handedly lost him a championship.
With bad strategy, unreliability repeated team errors and fussing with Jenson to get him up to Lewis's speed
rather than giving Lewis the tools and strategy to take it to Alonso and Vettel.

We all watched 2012 so we know the straw that broke the camels back.

When your workplace is not giving you the tools to succeed or are blocking your success by lack of focus,
you have three choices:-

Complacent.... frightened of change, acceptance.

Reactive....fight for change within the company if the company allows such input.

Proactive.... make enquiries test the waters see what is on offer elsewhere if something looks like it has potential
you leave.

I fail to see how making the latter decision is considered "the emotional option"

Now we know from Jenson's comments when Lewis had announced his decision to leave, that he thought, Lewis was making a big mistake, so we can surmise then, that HE....would not have left.

This makes me question Jenson, more so than Lewis, I have often considered Jenson to be complacent, but why did he not see the rot that had set in at McLaren ?

Was he so entrenched in his battle with lewis that he didn't see the flaws within the team ?

Never mind asking why Lewis left, that is clear and speaks for itself.

The question is...... Why is Jenson still there ?

Some interesting points you have raised.

I think we can all pretty much agree that there was an emotional element to Lewis's decision but i think you are absolutely correct that Lewis should also be given due credit for recognising that a general decay had started to settle in at McLaren and then setting about weighing his options as to how best respond to it.......

Lewis was able to take on board and comprehend the vision that Brawn/Lauda was selling. Importantly, as Nick Fry states, he UNDERSTOOD the possible potential involved. So in a nutshell, Jenson's statement that Lewis's decision was based on emotion without some knowledge of the potential, is simply incorrect.

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

I think people attribute far too much to the drivers, yes Hamilton outclassed Rosberg, but that in itself would not have given him two WDCs were it not for Merc's outstanding performance. Was Hamilton's decision to go to Merc anything more than a calculated risk? All top drivers are given options and they have to make a guess as to where will be the best place to be. This ability to get this right is probably the most important thing a driver can get right, especially given the cyclical dominance of teams in F1 these days.

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Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Yes, there is always an element of risk involved in any major decision such as this. But Lewis did his homework, it was a considered, thought-through decision. Hamilton was convinced of a future with Mercedes by Brawn/Lauda, not for the then current car but for the new concepts that were planned for 2014. Lewis was able to envisage the possibilities and the potential. So Button was clearly wrong in that particular respect.

Regardless of how or why Lewis came make this momentous decision, perhaps what is not up for debate is how the decision is now being viewed by many - correct, career changing and dare i say it, legendary.

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

Legendary?

I would like you to explain how Hamilton is supposed to have done his homework, so that he could reach a considered, thought-through decision. Not that I don't believe he must have really looked at this from all possible angles, but especially those angles open to him. After which, I believe, it was still a leap in the dark, except for the fact that Mercedes fought tooth and nail for the 2014 engine rules to be put in place without alteration.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Because Ferrari do not design and develop the chassis and power plant as one unit?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

Yes but in relation to Hamilton and Button, Hamilton saw a team that could not deliver him another title, what did Button see that made him happy to stay at McLaren?

Button has said recently that he is mentally stronger than Hamilton, I don't think that he would want to be thinking that Hamilton had been simply cleverer than him in this instance?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

Well yes that's what I'm saying that Button would never have done what Hamilton did because given the choice he has shown to make the safe decision in regards to team performance even at great financial cost to himself.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

Why the need to single out Mercedes when Renault pushed harder than Mercedes, perhaps that defeats the aspect of introducing some skulduggery if you include Renault?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

It was probably an easier decision to make after Red Bull and Ferrari turned him down

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14

I think we can pretty much all agree that there was an element of risk involved. But Lewis didn't just wake up one morning and out of the blue declare "hey, i think i'm gonna move to Mercedes folks!" . Lewis had been having meetings/telephone conversations/discussions with Lauda and Brawn.. And what do you think he was discussing at these meetings/telephone conversations? The weather? His potential music career? His tattoos? His hair? No, he was going through the relevant plans, getting an understanding of Brawn's/Lauda's vision for the future and a comprehension of why Brawn thought Mercedes would be in good shape come the new regulations. In my books, that's what i would call ground-work/research/homework!

Even if his options were narrowed by the door closing at certain other teams, the actual decision to leave for Mercedes was done with due consideration of the pros and cons and with an adequate knowledge of Mercedes' future plans and potential. A quote from Brawn when the announcement of Lewis' move to Mercedes was made -"We have been putting in place the foundations and building blocks that are needed to compete regularly for the world championship. The potential is now there to match any other team on the grid." Hamilton would have been aware of this potential.....

So once again, in a nutshell, Jenson was wrong to imply Lewis's decision was purely based on emotion and without knowledge of the potential......

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton acted like 'spoilt child' after title - Jacques Villeneuve

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/143 ... villeneuve

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Kimi: "Come on, get the McLaren out of the way!”

Personally, i fail to see how this has got anything to do with Jenson's comments, Lewis's decision to move to Mercedes or indeed, this particular thread overall. Besides, it's already being discussed elsewhere under the Mercedes may force a change in line up thread.

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

It also discusses the supposedly emotional aspects of Hamilton's personality and so is directly relevant. That's now two WDCs claiming this.

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Kimi: "Come on, get the McLaren out of the way!”

Except Villeneuve wouldn't know Lewis Hamilton from a hole in the wall, he ceased being relevant in F1 before Hamilton even made it. Just another man with an opinion and no facts, much the same as you and I.

You don't seem to value former champions much, by the looks of that post.
I would say that Hamilton reminds me a bit of Villeneuve. Perhaps Jacques is now seeing Hamilton through the filter of what he has learned about life in the spotlight and in particular in F1. But that would rather increase his relevance to F1, rather than decrease, as you think.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

That's one hell of a stretch, you've engaged in some amazing mental gymnastics to arrive at the conclusion that I don't seem to value former champions much. Hasn't anyone told you the difference between valuing an opinion and valuing a person? In any event, my opinion of former champions is rather higher than your opinion of a current (and former) champion, based on your posting record.

The rest of your post is all opinion, in itself no more or less valid than my opinion but I like mine better, I think it's less biased.

Wasn't sure whether to resurrect this one again but the latest from Horner suggests that Lewis definitely had Red Bull as his first choice when looking to get away from McLaren:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-3406694/Lewis-Hamilton-desperate-drive-Red-Bull-joining-Mercedes-according-team-chief-Christian-Horner.html

Bet he's glad they turned him down!

I know it's the Mail, which I wouldn't normally use as a source. but they do have some direct quotes from Horner which lends it some credibility

I'd be surprised if Lewis didn't want to get into the best car at the time.
Red Bull were a proven top team and Mercedes were a gamble.
Drivers are fickle and have 0% loyalty to teams, as proven by Seb's reaction to being in a less than perfect Red Bull in 2014.

Personally, i can't see how this adds to the debate. It was already known that Hamilton approached other teams. Horner's latest comment does not make Button's statement, upon which this thread is entirely based, any more valid. Even if Hamilton had approached a dozen teams before Mercedes, we know that Hamilton was aware of the Mercedes' potential (see various quotes/comments above) and therefore, Button was wrong to suggest Hamilton's move was purely emotional without knowledge of the possibilities.

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

It's a matter of opinion, of course. It adds because the comments are very recent and lend weight to the idea that Hamilton's frame of mind at the time was very much to leave McLaren, which goes to the emotional point that Button made. You may disagree with Button's opinion but you are not really in a position to call him wrong.

Yes, Horner's comments will add weight to the argument that Hamilton was emotional so i suppose it's relevant from that angle--but i don't think Hamilton being emotional to a degree was ever in dispute. What is in dispute is Button's comments that seem to imply Hamilton's decision was PURELY emotional, without consideration of what he was getting in to at Mercedes. When you have both Lauda ,Brawn and Hamilton all admitting that they had meetings and conversations where they went over their future plans and discussed the team's potential, then it's difficult to deduce Button statement as anything but inaccurate.

_________________
You just need to be accepted for who you are and be proud of who you are and that is what I'm trying to do.
Lewis Hamilton

Well we might consider he left because of emotion, but he obviously didn't see McLaren as a team to deliver him a world title in the near future and since he left McLaren they have not won a race, that in itself could be viewed as sound judgement.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

It's just sour grapes. He felt pretty good about himself when Lewis left and he had the might of McLaren fully behind him. Probably thought he had another title in his future. Ever since Lewis left, he hasn't even won a single race while Lewis has won 22 of them and 2 titles. My take on it is that he's jealous and also frustrated with his current situation.

I must say that dailymail article is very interesting. Not least for the fact that Horner acknowledges the fact that Vettel was the number 1 driver at Red Bull, and arguably, Hamilton was applying for the position as number 1. Now why can't I get Malaysia 2013 out of my head...? There is more there, than meets the eye.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

That's not too strange though, is it? Vettel was a double world champ by that time and going for a third, of course he was their lead driver. According to Horner's words, it was Horner who felt he couldn't accomodate both in the same team. That doesn't imply that Vettel or Hamilton wanted the #1 status for themselves. Just that he couldn't see the partnership working.

This is pretty much the same with what di Montezemolo expressed somewhere in 2012, when he said there was no way Ferrari would employ both Vettel and Alonso as they did not want to have two roosters in the same hen house (like he put it).

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

Yes, I'd agree it's just acknowledgment that Vettel was the driver who was constantly delivering and they wouldn't want to cause issues. It's just common sense IMO that they wouldn't want to upset the applecart in that way. It's not necessarily treating him as a number 1 driver, just the driver delivering the maximum for them

I thought this was all well known. He tried Red Bull and got turned down. Then he tried Ferrari and got turned down again. Getting rejected by those teams is the best thing that ever happened to him.

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14