planetf1.com

It's like the fable isn't it. It's a naked King, but no-one can see it's wearing no clothes because everyone's been deluded into thinking he's wearing a gold robe. Well, at least he was a King, and McLaren isn't even worthy of being a pauper.

So my question is, am I the ONLY one who can see what an utter disaster this "project" is ever since they started winter testing? Whenever I have voiced this opinion on forums and boards, I've either been told I don't know what I'm talking about, or it'll take time, or in one case an outright ban (some of you may figure out who I am from another forum).

So let's look at the facts here:

So this is a team that is a good part of 3 secs behind the leaders, it has a chassis that is a nightmare and and engine that doesn't work. And it's being hailed as "progress".

Problem with McLaren is that they've themselves been deluded into thinking that it'll all come together in 2016. Reminds me of this joke:

1. Peter Promorodrodo
2. MP4-4 Honda
3. ???
4. WDC+WCC imminent


So what's wrong? First "long term project". Like WTF does that even mean? Long-term projects in F1 don't make no sense. With every regs change you start anew. Look where Red Bull and Merc are from where they were in 2013.

Their problem is that they've picked a date so far into the future, they just think it'll all come together. There's no urgency. Nothing at all. They have a lemon, and it's "all going to plan".


Somehow it's normal to treat a whole season as testing. Why? We don't know. It's a project. Being out of points for a supposedly front-running team is "normal". Looking forward to a single point is "progress". Constantly setting milestones and failing is "part of the pain for a long-term gain". Being 3 seconds behind is "moving forward". Hey, we aren't 4.5 secs behind. So maybe next year they should start 20 secs behind and call gaining 17 secs in 1 race the progress of the century.

This warped reality is doing my head in. And the fact that every fan is falling for it hook, line and sinker.

Now why, despite all this, do the fans think it's all going to plan? Because McLaren Honda were champs a quarter century ago. Yeah, let's forget what Honda did in the 2000s. Or for that matter, forget how terrible McLaren has been for several years. But somehow, the ghost of Senna and Honda engineers will rise from their graves and work with Peter Promorodou and get them to glory.

There's like this belief in the whole F1 community that soon it'll come together. I am at a loss where this is all coming from? McLaren has done some excellent PR on this front. Or the belief that the "size zero" chassis is a gift from god and once the engine is on full power, they'll we winning races. Oh you mean the same chassis JB called the scariest chassis of his entire career? And JB knows a thing or two about terrible cars.

I have no idea what's going on at McLAren to be honest. I can totally see JB saying "farck this, I'm going home" at the end of the season. FA will probably erupt. There is no urgency, there are no updates (except turning up the engine a little every race). A team that thinks a "single point" has no business being in F1 unless it's Manor Marussia.

So when will the reality set in?

McLaren has no plan, no leadership, no urgency, no hands on deck, a terrible chassis, Honda is utter and pure cr#p. And they'll be winning races soon because Dennis said so.

Note: I wrote this before today's race, but added a couple a points after today.

Im a McLaren fan and your 100% right on everything

I still think you're getting ahead of yourself a bit, but one thing did strike me and should put an end to all those "the chassis is actually great"-rumors: that Button called it scary, that it snapped every time he put some decent power down. I don't think a great chassis would show that kind of behavior.

They are behind. Fully agree. They will not come good in 2015 (unless solid midfield = coming good). 2016? I'm not ready to call that.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

Well Button didn't call the chassis the scariest of his career so TS is wrong about that. And I'm pretty sure that the "whole F1 Community" has never reached a consensus on anything let alone that it will all come together for McHonda.

Too much exaggerating to even to begin having a discussion. It seems any opinion short of McLaren Honda are useless and always will be is delusion.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Not by those words, but what he actually said was telling enough:

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

Please show me exactly where I am getting ahead of myself. How am I reading this situation wrong? I am getting ahead of myself for calling a backend team horrible?

As for 2016, exactly which magical potion will turn this turd into a front-runner. Trust me, I am all ears. Give me something to chew on. Tell me what exactly is going to happen, and what makes you believe it will? I gave you my reasoning, I hope you can give yours. I am not looking for words that came out of Boullier and Dennis' mouths.

From what I read he called it the scariest 30 laps of his life.

Yeah i was under the impression it was a power delivery problem and some software tweaking later in the race sorted it rather than a problem with the chassis. I can't think of a chassis problem that would cause what JB describes.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Ah but that's not what you're doing. It's not just a description of the current situation but an assessment on which you conclude things for the future.

Apparently they have "no plan, no leadership, no sense of urgency". How would you know? They obviously have gotten off on the wrong foot and are not in the place they had thought they would be. But how does that translate to having no plan at all?




I'm not for a second going to pretend I have a crystal ball.

All I'm willing to say at this point is that they aren't where they wanted to be and that they probably will be solid midfield at best by the end of the year.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

Exactly what I am talking about. Somehow calling a car 3 secs off the pace a turd is "exaggeration". I mean, I'd use the same epithet for even Red Bull this year, and they are at least in the points every now and then. This is how warped the reality is around McLaren. Calling RBR out on being bad is OK, calling Renault out on being unreliable and slow is OK, calling McLaren out when they are much worse than both is "exaggeration". Like WTF.

I would like to have a discussion and know how being off-pace is "normal". Feel free to show me.

I don't think it's out of the question that snap oversteer can occur in an improperly balanced car when the limit of adhesion is surpassed?

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

If we're using chassis just as a universal term for the car in general then yeah i know he said it. Anytime i read the term chassis on here it's usually specifically Aero related. That's what i was questioning.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I don't know man, but maybe a car that is utter pants should be a clue. As for no urgency, are you serious? They keep pushing everything forward. And now we're at "will be competitive by end-2016". Yeah, right before another regs. change. You need an example of urgency? I am no Ferrari-fan (or any other marque really), but Arrivabene (what a fitting name) asked his aero guy how long it'll take to fix the wing (IIRC, could be another part). He said 120 days. MA said he's go 60 and that's all he's got. Unlike Boullier. We are going to score points at Melbourne. Or any race now. Oh maybe next race. Oh maybe the one after. Definitely Spain coz we're bringing updates (no idea what they updated though). Oh yeah, we will be competitive by 2016 end. So much urgency there, it might give cancer.

I think because it apparently went away in the last stint would rule that out, no?. I can't find where i read it was a power delivery problem so i might be completely wrong.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Fair enough. I am not sure if it was both chassis and engine or just one or the other? He did say some setting changes helped allevaite it a little. So it could very well be the engine.

The car being bad is a clue for the car being bad. Not for there not being a plan or leadership.
Plans can fail. Ask Renault. Ask Ferrari. Ask ...



And? Being realistic is now somehow proof of lack of urgency?
You'd rather want them to continue promising much and not delivering? It's obvious it will take time to turn what they have now into something that runs at the front.



Well, maybe Honda told McLaren it would take until 2019 and Boullier told them they had until 2017.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

I think I read they were chaging a whole lot of things on the fly so maybe that's what made it better - but without knowing whether those settings were fail-safes that theoretically made the car slower (but hid chassis shortcomings) or whether they were just better settings allround it's hard to say whether it would be chassis or not.



But then you could be right as well

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

Calling the car a turd in it's current guise is not an exaggeration, that's not what I said anyway. I was talking about your entire post in general. If you want some examples from your OP then we'll start with No plan and long term plans in F1 don't work.

They obviously have plans, doesn't mean it's working and Mercedes started work for the 2014 season in 2011.

There is plenty more as well.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

@mds,

You could be bang on the money bud. Maybe they'll divulge further info at the tests.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Mostly it's fans (be it of McLaren, Alonso or Button) who are in denial.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)

I think they have a possibility to come back. You do know that Honda is still new and McLaren is still improving from bottom of the grid to possibly challenging the likes of Lotus today


Harsh, if they had none of those, in fact if an F1 team doesn't have any of those they will not be in F1. I say give them time it's just 5 races in :X

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Even the best of drivers crash, stay safe and be responsible!

I think the engine partner decision had more to do with what other teams had, rather than what Mclaren had.

Mercedes engine will always be prioritized for Mercedes AMG Petronas
Ferrari engine will always be prioritized for Scuderia Ferrari
Renault engine will always be prioritized for Infiniti Red Bull Racing (at least for now, or when the decision was made in Mclaren)

So if this is the situation, how can Mclaren beat those three teams with what is essentially a left-over engine? For example, see Williams last year. Most of the time, they were the 2nd best team, but on the engine department, they were always a step behind the factory Merc. In order to have the best chance of beating all of those teams, Mclaren need an engine partner that prioritizes its engine for the team. So now they have that with Honda, and the only question is how much time will it take for them to be able to challenge the other teams. Of course it could be 2016 or it could be never. Nobody knows. We saw last year where they were with the client Merc engine, so is there any better chance of winning the title with client Merc engine than the Honda engine? All that we know is that in order to beat the factory Merc with a client Merc engine, Mclaren would need a far superior chassis. Now we will never know how it would've worked, as Mclaren chose Honda.

Anyway my point is that neither option promises anything. All we know is that they had good reasons to choose Honda. If it will turn out to anything spectacular, remains to be seen.

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“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

I think everybody in this thread is right really, including OP.

McLaren haven't built a good chassis for the last two years. Slapping on a Prodoroumomoomo Red Bull front wing is not going to change that.

As I said a few weeks ago, the engine regs will change again before McHonda catch up.

This has to be one of the most expensive fails in F1 ever. They're paying Alonso circa £50m to drive a backmarker car.

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Schumacher was better than Senna.

Does anyone remember Renault in 2001?

The car was absolutely disastrous in the first half of the season. At least as bad as Mclaren is now. Fissichella still managed to get a podium in the second half of the season with some awesome driving. Regular points followed in 2002, wins in 2003 and 2004 and then the both championships in 2005.

And that team had more competition and a lot less resources than Mclaren do at the moment.

McLaren and Honda have always said this is a long term project. We're 5 races into that project and whilst it has been an appalling start lets see where they are in 2016/17. If they aren't a race winning team by that stage then I think you can say its been a disaster, 5 races in I don't think you can say that.

As for the comment about F1 teams can't plan long term what a load of BS. What about Red Bull and Merc? When Red Bull bought Jaguar they planned long term and were a race winning team within 4 years of that project and then won there first championship the following year. Same for Merc when they bought Brawn. They didn't expect to win races straight away they planned for 2014 from about 2011 and the results are plain to see. You can't expect a big new partnership to hit the ground running straight away when these hybrid engines are very complex. Again I'll say wait to at least 2016 before making judgements on the McLaren Honda project.

A bit of a rant of a first post ReservoirDog...

How can you say in the same sentence that:

"I have no idea what's going on at McLAren to be honest."

But also:

"There is no urgency, there are no updates (except turning up the engine a little every race). A team that thinks a "single point" has no business being in F1 unless it's Manor Marussia."

You don't know what is going on in Macca unless you work in Woking. Do you really think that Dennis doesn't give a cr*p and has taken Honda for a ride, laughing all the way to the bank counting his money?

Rest assured that they are working their backsides off to improve, 3 secs off is not good, but progress it is. Teams have produced turds in the past and always managed to improve, even if it was at the end of the year or the year after. McLaren never hid the fact that the car is aiming for long term success

true, but there again Alonso didn't appear to face those issues. Maybe a power delivery issue on Jenson's car?

edit: just caught up with the rest of the thread and see this has been discussed

They're 5 races into the start of a new partnership. They said well before the season 2015 would be a learning year and it's proving to be just that. They probably didn't expect to be this far behind the curve, but that's where they are. To call the whole project a failure based from 5 races is premature. If come mid to late 2016 they haven't made serious progress and are the top of the field, then you could call them out, but now it's too soon.

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Winter is Coming

Denial of what?

That's exactly what I am saying. They have pulled wool over everybody's eyes. Somehow being a backmarker is considered OK because Dennis said so before the start of the season.

Pulled the wool how? By coming out in advance and saying they don't expect to hit the ground running is deceiving people? It's managing expectations and is a standard part of any business. Under promise and over achieve. Ferrari did the exact same thing last winter.

I don' think people are giving McLaren are free pass for being so poor. (some) people understand that 2015 was always going to be difficult and are not being judgemental so early into their partnership.

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Winter is Coming

I think you are right in many ways, but rather than a fable the need a two word motto

Realty Check

(Possibly resulting in Reality is no Cheque)

Pulled the wool because somehow they've convinced everyone that being 3 secs off the pace acceptable because they'll magically transform into a frontrunner by 2016? Why should be believe so? Because Senna, MP4/4 and Promorodo. There's never been anything like this ever in F1.

Renault in 2001.

Who said it is acceptable? They just said that it is better than the 5 secs that they were in the beginning of the year, which is true.

Also, what's with the beef with Prodromou? He's not designing the car by himself, it's not a one man show, why not Morris, Goss and Oatley? Prodromou is only billed with aiding the design.

Of how bad the situation is at McLaren.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)

Podiums at the end of the year. That was the aim, I just can't remember if that was an official statement or just fans being fans and spreading false rumours around being overly optimistic. In any way, McLaren is in a dire situation atm.

A fluke is always possible. But I don't it's possible for them to reach that level consistently. Basically they'd have to outperform Ferrari if they intend to have "Podiums at the end of the year" in normal conditions.

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“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

Interesting example. Renault also chased a 120 degree (or 111 degree) V engine because it was supposed to be the tits. Low CoG, high torque and some other stuff. Guess what? It never worked. That "project" failed. They had to revert to the conventional engine.

So I don' think Renault is the best example. If anything, that serves as a cautionary tale.

Exactly that. We all remember how much fed up everyone was with those big statements from Ferrari all those years and how dissapointed their fans were when each season started and each season Ferrari was nowhere. They got it right this year, they kept expectations low and fans were most of them pleased with the plan.

That's the way McLaren should've handled it, and not with promises of podiums (if they did that, not sure) to finally admit they might be competitive at the end of 2016.