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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:19 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Sure the country won't necessarily get a better deal from Europe (but I think it will be less draconian than people are saying), but there are other places. Plus you have to say there comes a point where you have to look beyond just more GDP, more growth and start to consider the negatives. On the one hand we're told we need immigration because our economy needs more and more workers, but the money from that prosperity doesn't seem to flow back into the infrastructure necessary to support itself. So if big business requires 300,000 immigrants to come and work here then fine, but those companies need to be brought to book when it comes to the taxes they pay so that they can contribute to maintaining the country. At the moment it seems like (lets say) Amazon create employment here, but pay their taxes elsewhere so the Govt only gets some of the money it needs to provide those workers with a functioning health service etc etc. Plus the issue of housing raises it's head again. We import people but we don't build enough houses and the Govt seem incapable of addressing this issue. The house builders don't want to build enough because it will lead to a reduction in prices, so this decision needs to be taken out of their hands.


I think you need to look at the Government rather than just big business. Immigrants provide a net benefit to the economy, we run at a deficit overall. These are 2 known facts but the only conclusion I can find based on that is that British people are a net deficit.

If immigrants are putting in more in to the country than they take out, but that money isn't being used correctly, the fault is with the government. I find it crazy that they've managed to strip the NHS to its bare bones, cut funding to everyone and everything, and then blame a group who are actually putting in more than they take out for the strain on services.

Our health service is stretched, our housing is stretched. How about taking some of that profit that immigrants bring and investing more in the health service and housing? This all comes back to the bonkers idea of austerity - an ideologically driven idea that has been wrongly spun as economically sound.



What should have been done long ago, and in Brexit from the start is to differentiate between the groups of Immigrants.
Legal immigrants
Illegal immigrants
Immigration from states within EU
Immigration for non EU states.

The only one seen is immigration from EU states. As long as we have any trade dealings with EU, this is not going to change. The gutter press do not let facts get in the way of a rant or wind up.

This is from a SN06077.pdf and is a government release. I can not find how to link it sorry. It is a House of Commons briefing paper called Migration Statistics.


There is a very good item at 1.4 The difference between migrants and asylum seekers
A migrant is someone who changes their country of usual residence. An
asylum seeker is someone who does so “from fear of persecution for
reasons of race, religion, social group, or political opinion”. it gives Asylum as 4% of the total

Table 1: Immigration by nationality, country of birth, and country of last residence, 2014
Note: See Background to Table 1 in the Appendix. Source: ONS Long-Term International
Migration Estimates 2 series (LTIM calendar year)

In 2014, 13% of people migrating to the UK were British nationals, 42% were nationals of other EU countries, and 45% were nationals of non-EU countries. This means just under half of migrants entering the
UK in 2014 were subject to immigration control.

Charts 6 and 7 below shows trends in immigration and net migration by nationality from 1991 to 2015. The data in these charts does not reflect the revisions to net migration since the 2011 Census, so estimates of immigration and net migration of EU nationals in the period 2004 to 2008 are likely to be underestimates (see Section 2.1 above).
Thousands % Country Country of Country Country of
Nationality of birth last residence Nationality of birth last residence
United Kingdom 81 68 0 12.8% 10.8% 0.0%
European Union 264 256 287 41.8% 40.5% 45.4%
EU 15 129 121 155 20.4% 19.1% 24.5%
EU A8 80 81 79 12.7% 12.8% 12.5%
EU Other 55 54 53 8.7% 8.5% 8.4%
Non European Union 287 308 345 45.4% 48.7% 54.6%
Old Commonwealth 37 39 59 5.9% 6.2% 9.3%
New Commonwealth 90 99 95 14.2% 15.7% 15.0%
Other foreign 160 171 191 25.3% 27.1% 30.2%

The chart is not presented here very well sorry, but the numbers are plain enough


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:24 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Obviously, the Brexiters had no "Plan B", but had they even a "Plan A" ?

The funny side of this melodrama is that the whole EU mess that England (mostly) voted to leave, is exactly what was shaped by our continental cowards to comply 30 years of preferential deals and "blackmailing" from successive British governements... The current EU is certainly closer to what the British powers wanted it to be than it is to the original purpose. And anyway as far as possible from what European citizens want it to be.
Another irony is that over the years EU-politicians have come to use the language of its most contrary member as their lingua franca. No longer needed after last week.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:02 pm 
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Well, Michael Gove says he reluctantly but firmly believes Johnson is not the man to unite the Conservatives nor the country.

Um, if there was ever a character less likely to unite the country, it has to be Gove.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:43 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Well, Michael Gove says he reluctantly but firmly believes Johnson is not the man to unite the Conservatives nor the country.

Um, if there was ever a character less likely to unite the country, it has to be Gove.

This is undoubtedly the strangest week in politics for me.

Over the last week I have felt sorry for:

- David Cameron
- George Osborne
- Jeremy Corbyn
- and now even flaming Boris Johnson!

Seriously I feel like I need my head looking at. It seems like no matter how much of a d!ck someone is, there is always somebody worse that pops up and proves to be a bigger one. Surely it can't get any worse than Gove though, surely?!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:46 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Well, Michael Gove says he reluctantly but firmly believes Johnson is not the man to unite the Conservatives nor the country.

Um, if there was ever a character less likely to unite the country, it has to be Gove.

This is undoubtedly the strangest week in politics for me.

Over the last week I have felt sorry for:

- David Cameron
- George Osborne
- Jeremy Corbyn
- and now even flaming Boris Johnson!

Seriously I feel like I need my head looking at. It seems like no matter how much of a d!ck someone is, there is always somebody worse that pops up and proves to be a bigger one. Surely it can't get any worse than Gove though, surely?!



I know what you mean. Its like sympathizing with a traffic warden in bad whether :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:16 am 
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Farage stepping down as leader of UKIP.

Doing a runner, or looking for a cabinet position in an upcoming government?

I'm surprised at this, I expected UKIP to be amongst those calling for another General Election and using May's Remain stance (along with Labour's inability to be a functioning party) to pull in voters to them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:47 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Farage stepping down as leader of UKIP.

Doing a runner, or looking for a cabinet position in an upcoming government?

I'm surprised at this, I expected UKIP to be amongst those calling for another General Election and using May's Remain stance (along with Labour's inability to be a functioning party) to pull in voters to them.


Leaving the scene of the crime in case someone asks him did you see what happened?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:25 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Obviously, the Brexiters had no "Plan B", but had they even a "Plan A" ?

The funny side of this melodrama is that the whole EU mess that England (mostly) voted to leave, is exactly what was shaped by our continental cowards to comply 30 years of preferential deals and "blackmailing" from successive British governements... The current EU is certainly closer to what the British powers wanted it to be than it is to the original purpose. And anyway as far as possible from what European citizens want it to be.
I agree the UK has only ever really been in the EU for what they can get out of it, and never intended to be part of a closer union - that's what it looks like.

However the UK isn't the only country with opt outs, and it's not the only one concerned about the effect of a closer union. France may be very much in favour of closer union, but Germany isn't - at least not until other countries are better able to pay their own way.

Anyway, according to the Lisbon Treaty:
Quote:
The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming
to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of
the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.
Yet people like Junckers (the guy with a known alcohol problem who recently claimed to have been in contact with “leaders of other planets.” ;) ) appears to be pursuing a personal vendetta against the UK, and this isn't helped by the stance taken by Hollande etc..

I don't want the UK to leave the EU, but if it's going to happen, then the least the EU can do is stick to its' own principals. Making an example of the UK will harm it's citizens and that goes against everything the EU stands for.
If the EU is indeed stronger without the UK kicking up a fuss about things the whole time, then there's no need to take a hard line, we should be able to reach a settlement that works for everyone and doesn't cause hardship for current EU or future UK only citizens - fingers crossed. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:12 pm 
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I think it would have helped if the referendum had been held AFTER we got to see all these clips from 100 years ago.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:17 am 
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I would be livid if all of the politicos who were the instigators of something like this just up and bailed.

Looks like none of them had any idea of what they wanted beyond "out of the EU" and had no vision for the country after the exit and are happy to let somebody else figure it out. It feels downright cynical.

It sort of reminds me of the "Contract with America" republicans campaigned on back in '94 one of the keystones of that was term limits for congressmen. After they got the majority the wrote a bill, voted on it, and when it didn't pass they said. "Hey. We never said that we'd pass term limits, only that we'd vote on it."

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:52 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
I would be livid if all of the politicos who were the instigators of something like this just up and bailed.

Looks like none of them had any idea of what they wanted beyond "out of the EU" and had no vision for the country after the exit and are happy to let somebody else figure it out. It feels downright cynical.

It sort of reminds me of the "Contract with America" republicans campaigned on back in '94 one of the keystones of that was term limits for congressmen. After they got the majority the wrote a bill, voted on it, and when it didn't pass they said. "Hey. We never said that we'd pass term limits, only that we'd vote on it."



Yip, WE DONT WANT THIS!!!!!

Well, what do you want?

Erm, something else

What?

Er. never mind, I have to go now.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:46 am 
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It appears that the plan is to run away. Just not bravely. Has Monty Python taught these idiots nothing at all?

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Farage stepping down as leader of UKIP.

Doing a runner, or looking for a cabinet position in an upcoming government?

I'm surprised at this, I expected UKIP to be amongst those calling for another General Election and using May's Remain stance (along with Labour's inability to be a functioning party) to pull in voters to them.


Pontius Pilate ? How someone could take this stupid clown seriously is beyond understanding...
As I wrote elsewhere, if the Brits needed one proof they had become true Europeans, the abysmal mediocrity of their islander politicians, matching so easily the very low level of the continental ones, should be enough.

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As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".


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