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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:27 am 
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the b@stard always "protects" himself with "many are saying", "I heard", or by being vague enough to allow him to claim "innocence" with is statements. This time it was a very thinly veiled threat, that, knowing some of the gun-toting idiots running around this country could well end up in disaster. It reminds me of Palin's "crosshairs" webpage... again, claimed to be "innocent", yet one of the Democrats in the crosshairs was shot and nearly killed. If anything happens of that nature, I will hold Donald Trump to be an accomplice and hope that he finds himself in court as well... of course, he won't be, he will probably be to busy with the waiting trails that he has to face after the elections.

I am still dumfounded that he got enough support to get the Republican nomination... and now there are one hell of a lot of Republicans crying about it as well.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:17 am 
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Can an American please explain the passion behind the amendments? I understand the history behind American independence and totally understand the importance of this, but amendments should surely have to change with the times. How long can any country go with simply accepting a rule, law or whatever without it being updated. This bearing arms is seemingly defended with more passion than anything else.

I find it very odd as a none American.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:23 pm 
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Trump spokesperson on CNN denying Trump should be held responsible because he is "inarticulate at times" and not a professor in "grammar."

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:11 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Can an American please explain the passion behind the amendments? I understand the history behind American independence and totally understand the importance of this, but amendments should surely have to change with the times. How long can any country go with simply accepting a rule, law or whatever without it being updated. This bearing arms is seemingly defended with more passion than anything else.

I find it very odd as a none American.

The amendments as they are added or in some cases repealed (prohibition) become a part of the constitution and are the means which make our founding document able to change with the times.

I'm a gun owner and don't see a need to repeal the 2nd amendment but I'm also very much in favor of passing more restrictive checks in order to buy and possess firearms as well as what firearms, and or accessories, citizens are allowed to have. I was in the military and have fired all kinds of weapons and can attest that firing off a 30 round magazine on full-auto is a blast. However there is no need for Average Joe to have that capability.

The NRA (National Rifle Association) and fervent 2nd amendment people like to only taut the later part of the article which comes after the second comma. The first part which states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" is mostly ignored by them and look at the last part "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" as a guarantee of a specific personal freedom instead of what it is which was a way for a young country to be able to have some semblance of national defense without having to pay and arm a large standing military. Because originally every able bodied man had to regularly drill with his local militia and supply his own rifle.

Unfortunately most of these people who do pay some passing interest in the militia part see it as a means for the citizenry to be able to defend themselves against the government should the need arise which justifies them being able to own military grade weaponry.

Of course I wrote more than I meant to, but still it only scratches the surface and is very general but I hope it answered your question somewhat.

And yes, Trump is a buffoon.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:16 am 
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Part of the problem is, as Raggedman states, that people seem to choose what they want out of the second amendment and ignore the rest. I read an article recently on the rather liberal (wouldn't the NRA hate to see that word associated with them) interpretation of the second amendment, it basically expounded on what Ragged is saying.

The "their gonna take your guns" argument is nothing but a fear tactic. The Dems are not out to take all the guns, nor are they going to eliminate the second amendment. Hilary Clinton certainly not planning on repealing the admendment, again, just a fear tactic being used by trump (from now on I refuse to capitalize his name).

I agree with RaggedMan that there needs to be more restrictive checks as well as limiits as to what kind of guns should be owned privately. Sadly, the NRA, supported greatly by gun manufacturers, seems to think that the second amendment meant that any weapon used by the military is fair game for private parties. I may be wrong on that and a bit unfair to the NRA, but that is the way it comes across. Living in Nebraska, or virtually any state in the middle US, I find great passion for the gun. One of my best friends is one who buys a new gun every time there is a Columbine-shooting, for fear that the "Dems" are going to stop his ability to buy his next gun, to put with his dozens of others. When some kind of massacre takes place, shells disappear off the shelves... that is the fear that the government is going to take their weapons... er guns.

One rather funny argument that I have with the pro-gun fanatics is when they claim that it is because of the 2nd amendment that this country has never been invaded... conveniently forgetting something called the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, aircraft, armoured vehicles, trained infantry... not to mention Missles. I like to kid them about what their little gun collection is going to do to stop a tank.
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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:34 am 
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As a non-American I also don't understand why guns are so important to so many Americans. I don't agree with hunting, but can understand wanting to own guns for recreational purposes such as hunting or use at a range, but I'm so baffled that many American's simply seem to just want to own them for the sake of owning them! Or for the purpose of self-defence or incase they need to fight off the British of we decide to take back our colony!!!!!

I'm also extremely confused that so few American's (from what I see some of my American friends on facebook or on youtube video's (even from liberal's)) seem to either not know, be totally ill informed by the media or simply chose to ignore that there have been more American's killed on American soil by American's in mass shootings since 9/11 than have been killed by Muslim extremists, yet so many American's are scared of all Muslims and this is one of the things that trump is encouraging! Most mass shootings in America (from what I see in British media) are performed by people with mental disorders who need help rather than access to guns, but when extra checks are put forward, the pro-gun people are in uproar. It's almost like they want mote shootings to take place and innocent people to die.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:08 am 
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So, do any Americans on this site own a gun for defensive purposes or are they used for sport?

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:49 am 
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I do not, other than a small BB pistol bought many years ago to chase off dogs or cats that came into the yard to harrass our pets. My fathere was a strong believer of them not being necessary in the house. Imagine his shock when he found out that my mother had a pistol that she got when her father died... she had it for 30 years before Dad found out about it. of my 3 siblings, only one has guns in the house, and that one's husband is as big a gun fanatic as will be found

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:53 pm 
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Thanks Blake. I'm just wondering if any criminals in America consciously change their mind from trying to murder someone or stealing from someone on the basis that there may be someone else with a gun.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:33 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
So, do any Americans on this site own a gun for defensive purposes or are they used for sport?

I have 2 small caliber guns. One is a semi-auto rifle which is only fit for target shooting or plinking, and really small game like rabbit or squirrel but I haven't hunted in 30+ years.

The other is a six-shooter type single action revolver which could be considered suitable for home defense (although I don't keep it loaded and easily accessible) but is also really more of a fun or sporting gun.

Back when I use to shoot recreationally a lot I was more interested in old-timey cap & ball black powder guns which are useless for home defense.

To hear a lot of the folks who go on about having a gun for home defense you'd think that home invasion robberies were an everyday occurrence but the fact is that they are exceedingly rare. They also tend to buy guns that are ill suited for the purpose by getting something like a .357 Magnum for it's "stopping power" without realizing that those guns are capable of having a miss end up in their neighbors house. And don't even get me started on those who feel the need to carry a gun with them 24/7 either open or concealed. They're like a bunch of frightened children and precisely the type of person who I don't want to be constantly armed.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:16 pm 
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minchy wrote:
I'm also extremely confused that so few American's (from what I see some of my American friends on facebook or on youtube video's (even from liberal's)) seem to either not know, be totally ill informed by the media or simply chose to ignore that there have been more American's killed on American soil by American's in mass shootings since 9/11 than have been killed by Muslim extremists, yet so many American's are scared of all Muslims and this is one of the things that trump is encouraging! Most mass shootings in America (from what I see in British media) are performed by people with mental disorders who need help rather than access to guns, but when extra checks are put forward, the pro-gun people are in uproar. It's almost like they want mote shootings to take place and innocent people to die.

Believe me it confuses many of us as well.

There's a strange quirk to, certain parts, of our culture where there is a dislike or fear of "the other" even though we're made up of "others" except for the very few who are 100% Native American. It happened when the Irish were coming in droves, when Chinese were brought over to work on the railroads, Cuban boat people after Castro took over, Vietnamese boat people after the fall of Saigon, and now Syrians in particular but middle-easterners in general.

I had a similar discussion on Facebook about mental health in regard to mass shootings after what happened in Orlando recently. But due to the current climate of fear that's been whipped up by some factions, if you're skin is brown you're a terrorist, but if it's not then you're unstable even if you have a history of making racial comments on social media and then go on to shoot up a black church.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:45 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
So, do any Americans on this site own a gun for defensive purposes or are they used for sport?

I have 2 small caliber guns. One is a semi-auto rifle which is only fit for target shooting or plinking, and really small game like rabbit or squirrel but I haven't hunted in 30+ years.

The other is a six-shooter type single action revolver which could be considered suitable for home defense (although I don't keep it loaded and easily accessible) but is also really more of a fun or sporting gun.

Back when I use to shoot recreationally a lot I was more interested in old-timey cap & ball black powder guns which are useless for home defense.

To hear a lot of the folks who go on about having a gun for home defense you'd think that home invasion robberies were an everyday occurrence but the fact is that they are exceedingly rare. They also tend to buy guns that are ill suited for the purpose by getting something like a .357 Magnum for it's "stopping power" without realizing that those guns are capable of having a miss end up in their neighbors house. And don't even get me started on those who feel the need to carry a gun with them 24/7 either open or concealed. They're like a bunch of frightened children and precisely the type of person who I don't want to be constantly armed.


Something really hit home to me the other week, my wife was talking on the phone (from our home in Scotland) to one of her clients in the US, and during that conversation someone rang his doorbell, and while she was talking to him he casually mentioned that there was someone at his door and he needed to put the phone down to get his gun before answering. And I just thought what kind of fu##ed up country are you people living in?!

From someone living in Scotland, all this talk about having a gun, whether it’s an appropriate for 'home defence' or not is just bewildering! It’s just crazy!!


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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Nice thread people. Good to read the reasoned responses from our American members.

Re the above post, getting a gun to answer the door? Blimey!

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:36 pm 
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It is not like that in most of the US. I know of no one who is that paranoid. many of the people in this area do not even lock their house during the day, and in some cases not at night either.... I know that I seldom do... one of the advantages in living rural areas. In the metro areas most people lock up the house and the cars, but to feel one has to have a gun to answer the door??? Either the person lives in a very bad area... or has done something that causes them to be afraid.

Please don't perceive all of the US what that individual portrays

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:44 pm 
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Damn Biffa, that's a hell of a story. Unfortunately there are many of that type about but are a very small percentage of the total population. The problem is you never know who they are.

Several years ago I was visiting my son and we were hanging out with some of his friends at the local mall. At one point I found myself alone with one of them and, both of us being former Marines, ended up in a discussion about the merits of the military switching from the .45 cal Colt 1911 to 9mm Beretta. Next thing I know he whips a 1911 out of his waist band in the middle of the mall and hands it to me. I was dumbstruck, gave it the once over as I asked him if he had a concealed carry permit and handed it back to him. He told that he was permitted but later when I told my son about it he said that the guy didn't have a permit.

The thing is though I have many friends who are guns owners that are current and former military, or in law enforcement and they don't carry or wait to get thier gun before answering the door. It's just this certain subsect that use firearms as a comforter to as wage their insecurities that make the whole proposition dicey at times.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:09 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
minchy wrote:
I'm also extremely confused that so few American's (from what I see some of my American friends on facebook or on youtube video's (even from liberal's)) seem to either not know, be totally ill informed by the media or simply chose to ignore that there have been more American's killed on American soil by American's in mass shootings since 9/11 than have been killed by Muslim extremists, yet so many American's are scared of all Muslims and this is one of the things that trump is encouraging! Most mass shootings in America (from what I see in British media) are performed by people with mental disorders who need help rather than access to guns, but when extra checks are put forward, the pro-gun people are in uproar. It's almost like they want mote shootings to take place and innocent people to die.

Believe me it confuses many of us as well.

There's a strange quirk to, certain parts, of our culture where there is a dislike or fear of "the other" even though we're made up of "others" except for the very few who are 100% Native American. It happened when the Irish were coming in droves, when Chinese were brought over to work on the railroads, Cuban boat people after Castro took over, Vietnamese boat people after the fall of Saigon, and now Syrians in particular but middle-easterners in general.

I had a similar discussion on Facebook about mental health in regard to mass shootings after what happened in Orlando recently. But due to the current climate of fear that's been whipped up by some factions, if you're skin is brown you're a terrorist, but if it's not then you're unstable even if you have a history of making racial comments on social media and then go on to shoot up a black church.

To be fair, in my own country (UK) I'm baffled by how some of our citizens act as well. Brought to light with the resect EU referendum and a sudden 25% (I think it was) spike in racist abuse and assaults by some British citizens against other citizens from an ethnic background. Don't understand what it was supposed to achieve or why it was done. The old saying 'nowt as queer as folk' does have a lot of standing still.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:00 am 
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Biffa wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
So, do any Americans on this site own a gun for defensive purposes or are they used for sport?

I have 2 small caliber guns. One is a semi-auto rifle which is only fit for target shooting or plinking, and really small game like rabbit or squirrel but I haven't hunted in 30+ years.

The other is a six-shooter type single action revolver which could be considered suitable for home defense (although I don't keep it loaded and easily accessible) but is also really more of a fun or sporting gun.

Back when I use to shoot recreationally a lot I was more interested in old-timey cap & ball black powder guns which are useless for home defense.

To hear a lot of the folks who go on about having a gun for home defense you'd think that home invasion robberies were an everyday occurrence but the fact is that they are exceedingly rare. They also tend to buy guns that are ill suited for the purpose by getting something like a .357 Magnum for it's "stopping power" without realizing that those guns are capable of having a miss end up in their neighbors house. And don't even get me started on those who feel the need to carry a gun with them 24/7 either open or concealed. They're like a bunch of frightened children and precisely the type of person who I don't want to be constantly armed.


Something really hit home to me the other week, my wife was talking on the phone (from our home in Scotland) to one of her clients in the US, and during that conversation someone rang his doorbell, and while she was talking to him he casually mentioned that there was someone at his door and he needed to put the phone down to get his gun before answering. And I just thought what kind of fu##ed up country are you people living in?!

From someone living in Scotland, all this talk about having a gun, whether it’s an appropriate for 'home defence' or not is just bewildering! It’s just crazy!!


I don't blame you. It's not that crazy here, but Trump wants people like that guy to be afraid. That's why he keeps painting himself as the only person who can bring the world out of the apocalypse. He will get a lot of votes from these "frightened children", to borrow a (correct) term from another poster here.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:37 am 
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I'm actually shocked that there's something I agree with Blake on completely!


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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:39 am 
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Sorry for jumping here but while the discussion is centred around gun ownership in the US there is something I've been wondering for a while.

The 2nd amendment says, & I hope I have the right version here "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Now, from an outsiders view, & I could be very wrong here, I would hazard a guess that a majority of gun owners in the US are not members of a well regulated militia nor do they keep their guns to ensure the security of a free state. Most gun owners I hear interviewed say they own their guns for either hunting or self defense.

Would I be right in saying that?

If so, then isn't the 2nd amendment basically rendered useless and then couldn't it be said that those who swore to uphold the 2nd amendment are somewhat hypocritical and in fact are not upholding the amendment but rather contravening it ?

As I said, I am a total outsider in this so I would be happy to be corrected and further educated as I genuinely find this issue so baffling and intriguing.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:03 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I'm actually shocked that there's something I agree with Blake on completely!


Me too!!!
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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:41 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Sorry for jumping here but while the discussion is centred around gun ownership in the US there is something I've been wondering for a while.

The 2nd amendment says, & I hope I have the right version here "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Now, from an outsiders view, & I could be very wrong here, I would hazard a guess that a majority of gun owners in the US are not members of a well regulated militia nor do they keep their guns to ensure the security of a free state. Most gun owners I hear interviewed say they own their guns for either hunting or self defense.

Would I be right in saying that?

If so, then isn't the 2nd amendment basically rendered useless and then couldn't it be said that those who swore to uphold the 2nd amendment are somewhat hypocritical and in fact are not upholding the amendment but rather contravening it ?

As I said, I am a total outsider in this so I would be happy to be corrected and further educated as I genuinely find this issue so baffling and intriguing.

You have the right verbiage of the amendment. As I said in an earlier post in this thread the purpose of this amendment was to make up for the fact that the founders of the country's original intent was to not have a standing army and every able bodied man was expected to drill with his local militia on a regular basis and provide his own rifle. Some however interpret as keeping the citizenry armed in order to serve as a check against government oppression.

You would be right in saying that most gun owners are not part of an organized militia and their guns are used for sporting and home defense purposes. By and large these people are rational law abiding folks and cause no problems.

Now unfortunately, there is a sub-sect who do form their own militias with varying forms of "organization" take the other meaning that I stated above and want to use their 2nd amendment right to protect themselves from a government that they see as over stepping it's bounds.

Some of them it is purely racial and they're just hankering for a race war. Others think that there should be no federal regulation and that they're being repressed by an overburdening government. I don't have any specific sites that I would direct you to in order to learn more about the former, for the latter though a search for "Bundy ranch standoff" or "Bundy Oregon standoff" will give you recent news articles that would give some insight to the later.

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:36 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
minchy wrote:
I'm also extremely confused that so few American's (from what I see some of my American friends on facebook or on youtube video's (even from liberal's)) seem to either not know, be totally ill informed by the media or simply chose to ignore that there have been more American's killed on American soil by American's in mass shootings since 9/11 than have been killed by Muslim extremists, yet so many American's are scared of all Muslims and this is one of the things that trump is encouraging! Most mass shootings in America (from what I see in British media) are performed by people with mental disorders who need help rather than access to guns, but when extra checks are put forward, the pro-gun people are in uproar. It's almost like they want mote shootings to take place and innocent people to die.

Believe me it confuses many of us as well.

There's a strange quirk to, certain parts, of our culture where there is a dislike or fear of "the other" even though we're made up of "others" except for the very few who are 100% Native American. It happened when the Irish were coming in droves, when Chinese were brought over to work on the railroads, Cuban boat people after Castro took over, Vietnamese boat people after the fall of Saigon, and now Syrians in particular but middle-easterners in general.

I had a similar discussion on Facebook about mental health in regard to mass shootings after what happened in Orlando recently. But due to the current climate of fear that's been whipped up by some factions, if you're skin is brown you're a terrorist, but if it's not then you're unstable even if you have a history of making racial comments on social media and then go on to shoot up a black church.

The reality is that various forms of xenophobia are at the core of a lot of these factions that want to paint a picture of America as a place where you need to carry a gun at all times in order to feel safe. Most of the people engaging in mass shootings are these same people who push this ideal! In fact, up until a year ago, there had been no Americans killed on American soil by terrorists since 9/11. The San Bernadino shootings and then the tragedy in Orlando have changed that but, if you were to look at the total number of killings in this country, those acts make up less than 1% of the murders in the US over the last year. Even in the case of shootings committed by terrorist factions, the thing we seem to consistently see is that they purchased their fire arms legally from stores.

The Orlando shooter was clearly another case of a lone gunman who was mentally disturbed. Calling it an "ISIS" attack is a bit ridiculous. ISIS (the actual organization) never claimed credit for the attack because they were not involved. This was a self-radicalized mad man who just needed an excuse to do what he wanted to do. But yes, when it's a white man who commits the crime, the story tends to immediately shift to mental illness while non-whites are painted as monsters with an agenda.

Unfortunately my beloved country has been dealing with an attempted hijack by idiots over the last few years and Trump is the embodiment of that.


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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:23 am 
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Nigel Farage speaking at a Trump Rally. That is pure gold :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:09 pm 
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Almost as funny as Trump trying to woo the Black vote just a couple of weeks after he gets the support of David Duke (KKK).

:)

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 Post subject: Re: To all Americans...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:05 pm 
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Posts: 4534
Blake wrote:
Almost as funny as Trump trying to woo the Black vote just a couple of weeks after he gets the support of David Duke (KKK).

:)

"What do you have to lose?"
:uhoh:

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