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Obama rate his presidency.
A 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
B 48%  48%  [ 12 ]
C 20%  20%  [ 5 ]
D 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
F 16%  16%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 25
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:46 pm 
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Steve C wrote:
Ok, Jimbox01 and Prema, I am not aware of US or it's allies hunting down U citizens in the battlefield. I'll stand by my comment and say that the US cannot/should not retain without due process any American suspected in terrorism. The fact that it happens doesn't change my view. Once you've become a US citizen you still are guaranteed certain rights. So are you saying Jim that we've hunted down and killed American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan or just hunted down and retained? I stand for the constitution even if it means protecting someone that wants to kill me.


I don't get it, Steve. Does your hand ever gets tired from this non-stop waiving with your Constitution at every and any topic/issue that is being discussed here? We are talking about those prisoners of Gitmo and wether they are entitled to a fair trial, and you are coming with your Constitution that supposedly does not cover non-Americans... so hence they got no rights.

As far as I am concerned, you could be just equally pulling a copy of Qur'an out of your pocket as your reference for why not to give the certain rights to non-Muslims... erm, I meant to say, to non-Americans.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:00 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
Ok, Jimbox01 and Prema, I am not aware of US or it's allies hunting down U citizens in the battlefield. I'll stand by my comment and say that the US cannot/should not retain without due process any American suspected in terrorism. The fact that it happens doesn't change my view. Once you've become a US citizen you still are guaranteed certain rights. So are you saying Jim that we've hunted down and killed American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan or just hunted down and retained? I stand for the constitution even if it means protecting someone that wants to kill me.


I don't get it, Steve. Does your hand ever gets tired from this non-stop waiving with your Constitution at every and any topic/issue that is being discussed here? We are talking about those prisoners of Gitmo and wether they are entitled to a fair trial, and you are coming with your Constitution that supposedly does not cover non-Americans... so hence they got no rights.

As far as I am concerned, you could be just equally pulling a copy of Qur'an out of your pocket as your reference for why not to give the certain rights to non-Muslims... erm, I meant to say, to non-Americans.


OK, I'm not sure what you want me to say.

Try this, getting terrorist off the streets is good, right? Keeping terrorist off the streets is also good, right?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Are they terrorist if they haven't been trialled and found guilty of anything? His point was there could be innocents locked up under this blanket.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:33 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
Are they terrorist if they haven't been trialled and found guilty of anything? His point was there could be innocents locked up under this blanket.


Perhaps, but we're not talking about a corner store robbery here. These are people who are fighting against good (yes, I can say good vs evil) and have been captured in the field of battle.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:55 pm 
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If someone came in to America to attack your country on the basis of something you personally haven't done would you still pick up your gun and fight for your country?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:24 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
If someone came in to America to attack your country on the basis of something you personally haven't done would you still pick up your gun and fight for your country?


I'm not following you question.

My country, if attacked, has an standing army. It is their job to protect me. Is that what you're after?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:52 pm 
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I'm sure your not so obtuse you didn't get the question.

However I will rephrase for you. If America was invaded fighting was happening on the streets gun fights everywhere would you choose to sit in your house and ignore or would you go out and try to protect your country, kids, family, friends and everything it is you've brought up to believe in?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:09 am 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
I'm sure your not so obtuse you didn't get the question.

However I will rephrase for you. If America was invaded fighting was happening on the streets gun fights everywhere would you choose to sit in your house and ignore or would you go out and try to protect your country, kids, family, friends and everything it is you've brought up to believe in?


So, I didn't understand you question because i didn't understand what "..on the basis of something you personally haven't done.." meant.

If America was invaded, it would take a lot for there to be fighting in the streets (see Red Dawn movie made in 1984) and if my country needed my to step in, I of course would. If the fighting came close to me I would protect my family.

I'm. OT sure I follow your line of questioning but I'll play along...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:16 am 
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"Perhaps, but we're not talking about a corner store robbery here. These are people who are fighting against good (yes, I can say good vs evil) and have been captured in the field of battle."

That what if for these people it isn't good vs evil. It's their way of life (good) vs the invaders (evil). Everyone should be entitled to a fair trial regardless of nationality you can't just decide someone is a terrorist without a trial and keep them locked up forever without good reason. Regardless of nationality.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:29 am 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
"Perhaps, but we're not talking about a corner store robbery here. These are people who are fighting against good (yes, I can say good vs evil) and have been captured in the field of battle."

That what if for these people it isn't good vs evil. It's their way of life (good) vs the invaders (evil). Everyone should be entitled to a fair trial regardless of nationality you can't just decide someone is a terrorist without a trial and keep them locked up forever without good reason. Regardless of nationality.


I can't decide anything except for what affects my life.

No, not everybody deserves a fair trial in the battle field. If you're having trouble defining good and evil, I can help. Terrorist and terrorism do have meaning.

What does a fair trial have to do with America being invaded?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:12 am 
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Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
Ok, Jimbox01 and Prema, I am not aware of US or it's allies hunting down U citizens in the battlefield. I'll stand by my comment and say that the US cannot/should not retain without due process any American suspected in terrorism. The fact that it happens doesn't change my view. Once you've become a US citizen you still are guaranteed certain rights. So are you saying Jim that we've hunted down and killed American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan or just hunted down and retained? I stand for the constitution even if it means protecting someone that wants to kill me.


I don't get it, Steve. Does your hand ever gets tired from this non-stop waiving with your Constitution at every and any topic/issue that is being discussed here? We are talking about those prisoners of Gitmo and wether they are entitled to a fair trial, and you are coming with your Constitution that supposedly does not cover non-Americans... so hence they got no rights.

As far as I am concerned, you could be just equally pulling a copy of Qur'an out of your pocket as your reference for why not to give the certain rights to non-Muslims... erm, I meant to say, to non-Americans.


I read this again and it hit me. There are no rights for non-Muslims according to the Qur'an, right? In fact, as I understand it, we are infidels and should all be killed, right? Religion of peace my pickle...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:29 am 
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Steve C wrote:
Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
Ok, Jimbox01 and Prema, I am not aware of US or it's allies hunting down U citizens in the battlefield. I'll stand by my comment and say that the US cannot/should not retain without due process any American suspected in terrorism. The fact that it happens doesn't change my view. Once you've become a US citizen you still are guaranteed certain rights. So are you saying Jim that we've hunted down and killed American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan or just hunted down and retained? I stand for the constitution even if it means protecting someone that wants to kill me.


I don't get it, Steve. Does your hand ever gets tired from this non-stop waiving with your Constitution at every and any topic/issue that is being discussed here? We are talking about those prisoners of Gitmo and wether they are entitled to a fair trial, and you are coming with your Constitution that supposedly does not cover non-Americans... so hence they got no rights.

As far as I am concerned, you could be just equally pulling a copy of Qur'an out of your pocket as your reference for why not to give the certain rights to non-Muslims... erm, I meant to say, to non-Americans.


I read this again and it hit me. There are no rights for non-Muslims according to the Qur'an, right? In fact, as I understand it, we are infidels and should all be killed, right? Religion of peace my pickle...


You and them are doing the same: using some piece of your holy paper (be it what's called Constitution or Qur'an or whatever) as your evidence/explanation that those others do not have the same rights as your people do. See, your Constitution supposedly does not give them same rights. And the right to a fair trial would be one of the basic rights for all humans, yet you make distinction on "Americans" and "non-Americans" as to define who is entitled to those rights and who not.

Radicalism is radicalism, never mind if it is "right" or "left" or "religious". All got same mentality.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:44 am 
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Steve C wrote:
Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
Ok, Jimbox01 and Prema, I am not aware of US or it's allies hunting down U citizens in the battlefield. I'll stand by my comment and say that the US cannot/should not retain without due process any American suspected in terrorism. The fact that it happens doesn't change my view. Once you've become a US citizen you still are guaranteed certain rights. So are you saying Jim that we've hunted down and killed American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan or just hunted down and retained? I stand for the constitution even if it means protecting someone that wants to kill me.


I don't get it, Steve. Does your hand ever gets tired from this non-stop waiving with your Constitution at every and any topic/issue that is being discussed here? We are talking about those prisoners of Gitmo and wether they are entitled to a fair trial, and you are coming with your Constitution that supposedly does not cover non-Americans... so hence they got no rights.

As far as I am concerned, you could be just equally pulling a copy of Qur'an out of your pocket as your reference for why not to give the certain rights to non-Muslims... erm, I meant to say, to non-Americans.


OK, I'm not sure what you want me to say.

Try this, getting terrorist off the streets is good, right? Keeping terrorist off the streets is also good, right?


Just an empty phraseology without a substance. Based on that "logic" you can stop with fair trials all together.. keeping bad elements off the streets is also good, right?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:59 am 
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Steve C wrote:
No, not everybody deserves a fair trial in the battle field. If you're having trouble defining good and evil, I can help. Terrorist and terrorism do have meaning.


America invaded Afghanistan. You might have a legitimate reason for doing that, but to take a stance that whoever took up to resisting what technically speaking was the foreign invasion, is to be branded as "evil" and "terrorist" may be evil itself. Those people there were the same ones that America supported when they were fighting the Soviet invaders, then they perhaps were the freedom fighters. Those were your friends then.

Now you got ISIS. Thousands and thousands of them there on the battlefield. It's a war. And I have no problem in understanding that all this bloody mess there got not really much to do even with differences in cultures and even religion itself. It is said that ISIS cash some USD 1 mil per day from the oil they got the control over. And now, the latest bargaining with Japan over the lives of those two Japanese only shows it more clearly, it's money. They may go proclaiming establishment of Caliphate and religious reasons, but control over assets and money is what you can boil it all down to. And I have no problem in understanding that the US presence in decades, and the wars they have been fought in Iraq got just nothing to do with "Freedom" and bringing "Democracy" or "Good" there. That is all just same BS as "Caliphate" is. But the control over the valuable assets, the business. Just find out who there back in America have been profiting from all that huge Army deployment oversees and the maintain of the US influence in the oil rich Region, follow the trail of money and you might get somewhere.

What will you do? Keep calling then evil and proclaiming them all not deserving a fair trial on the battle field while keeping pushing those buttons that send thousands of missiles on them? Keep talking "evil" versus "good"? Back to the time of the Crusades Wars, still all same old BS propaganda phraseology never mind what age, people still keep falling for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:50 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
Ok, Jimbox01 and Prema, I am not aware of US or it's allies hunting down U citizens in the battlefield. I'll stand by my comment and say that the US cannot/should not retain without due process any American suspected in terrorism. The fact that it happens doesn't change my view. Once you've become a US citizen you still are guaranteed certain rights. So are you saying Jim that we've hunted down and killed American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan or just hunted down and retained? I stand for the constitution even if it means protecting someone that wants to kill me.


I don't get it, Steve. Does your hand ever gets tired from this non-stop waiving with your Constitution at every and any topic/issue that is being discussed here? We are talking about those prisoners of Gitmo and wether they are entitled to a fair trial, and you are coming with your Constitution that supposedly does not cover non-Americans... so hence they got no rights.

As far as I am concerned, you could be just equally pulling a copy of Qur'an out of your pocket as your reference for why not to give the certain rights to non-Muslims... erm, I meant to say, to non-Americans.


I read this again and it hit me. There are no rights for non-Muslims according to the Qur'an, right? In fact, as I understand it, we are infidels and should all be killed, right? Religion of peace my pickle...


You and them are doing the same: using some piece of your holy paper (be it what's called Constitution or Qur'an or whatever) as your evidence/explanation that those others do not have the same rights as your people do. See, your Constitution supposedly does not give them same rights. And the right to a fair trial would be one of the basic rights for all humans, yet you make distinction on "Americans" and "non-Americans" as to define who is entitled to those rights and who not.

Radicalism is radicalism, never mind if it is "right" or "left" or "religious". All got same mentality.


OMG, you're past needing help. You're telling me that the Constitution, any civilized Constitution, is the same as a Bible? Our Constitution doesn't give us the right to go kill someone just because he doesn't believe the way we want him to. You're too clueless to understand what my Constitution even is or how it's used. Our Constitution protects the people from the Gov't not what the Gov't should be doing to us. WE go to war to protect our interest and our friends. The problem wit the so called war on terrorism is that there isn't a place for us to bomb, per se. Let's see how bad it gets in your country, because they're coming there too, and see if you handle them properly but don't come screaming to me to help you out.

Our military generals and those from our allies will always figure out who the civilians and combatants are but those who have or will fight against the US or it's allies will be considered combatants.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:56 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Steve C wrote:
No, not everybody deserves a fair trial in the battle field. If you're having trouble defining good and evil, I can help. Terrorist and terrorism do have meaning.


America invaded Afghanistan. You might have a legitimate reason for doing that, but to take a stance that whoever took up to resisting what technically speaking was the foreign invasion, is to be branded as "evil" and "terrorist" may be evil itself. Those people there were the same ones that America supported when they were fighting the Soviet invaders, then they perhaps were the freedom fighters. Those were your friends then.

Now you got ISIS. Thousands and thousands of them there on the battlefield. It's a war. And I have no problem in understanding that all this bloody mess there got not really much to do even with differences in cultures and even religion itself. It is said that ISIS cash some USD 1 mil per day from the oil they got the control over. And now, the latest bargaining with Japan over the lives of those two Japanese only shows it more clearly, it's money. They may go proclaiming establishment of Caliphate and religious reasons, but control over assets and money is what you can boil it all down to. And I have no problem in understanding that the US presence in decades, and the wars they have been fought in Iraq got just nothing to do with "Freedom" and bringing "Democracy" or "Good" there. That is all just same BS as "Caliphate" is. But the control over the valuable assets, the business. Just find out who there back in America have been profiting from all that huge Army deployment oversees and the maintain of the US influence in the oil rich Region, follow the trail of money and you might get somewhere.

What will you do? Keep calling then evil and proclaiming them all not deserving a fair trial on the battle field while keeping pushing those buttons that send thousands of missiles on them? Keep talking "evil" versus "good"? Back to the time of the Crusades Wars, still all same old BS propaganda phraseology never mind what age, people still keep falling for it.


What I hope we continue to do is fight for freedom. Any terrorist (the person who has engaged in terror acts) or potential terrorist (a person planning on attacking) should be delt with as soon as a crime against man happens.

Yes, our oil interest is part of the reason why we're there. The free flow of oil is crucial for the entire world.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:03 pm 
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We can end this right now if you'd like. Nobody I know likes war. Nobody I know likes senseless killing. We have friends in the world and I bet your country is a friend of America. I'd like for us to pull out of countries that don't like us but still maintain a presence close. After 9/11, America pulled together to defeat the terrorist and pronounce terrorism as bad.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:52 pm 
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Steve C wrote:
We can end this right now if you'd like. Nobody I know likes war. Nobody I know likes senseless killing. We have friends in the world and I bet your country is a friend of America. I'd like for us to pull out of countries that don't like us but still maintain a presence close. After 9/11, America pulled together to defeat the terrorist and pronounce terrorism as bad.


You mean, "we" can end this right now, like what?

Since the end of WW2, one single country has been conducting more wars and military interventions than any other country in the world, and all of it exclusively on the other countries' soil. Yes, that's right. It's America. Have a look:

Image


The toll has been over 100 000 of American lives and many hundreds of thousands wounded. The estimation of other nationalities mortal casualties due to these American military interventions go all up to dozens of millions. That's right, millions upon millions.

So yes please, what you might consider stopping now is that cynicism of talking about not being liked by some of those countries, about your freedom fighters so selflessly fighting for Freedom and Democracy, you ensuring free oil flow to the world (rather would be the free flow of billions and trillions of dollars into certain American accounts), yours waiving around with your civilized Constitution that apparently gives you for right about anything that you decide to do and takes away the rights from anybody else that you decide so...

But the wars... that you can't stop right now, nor in a close future. You are stuck in that over your ears. What do you think that all that insane amount money for your military, by now going towards 1'000 billions of dollars a year, is all about? Perhaps for the sake of ending the military operations? You better bet you can't stop that.

And stay assured, those couple of percents of super rich people in your country, that you so eagerly defend their rights to be rich beyond any sense, and that keep the American war machine well oiled for their own profits, stay assured that they will not send their kids to these wars there to lose their lives and limbs and come back screwed for life due to all that (sense-full?) killing that they take part in. No. The wars, that is but a business. So they will send you and your kids there by telling you "Look, there are real bad guys who are after you and your freedom, they don't like our Constitution, go get them!" (and sure enough, few real bad guys have been manifested along the time, which is only good for the business). And then they will make more money. And they will also tell you how America is the country of opportunity (as if no other country is) and if you just work hard enough you and/or your kids might also become billionaires one day just like them... so don't let "socialists" come close to you and your opportunities.. and your money.

(yes, now would be the right time for your 'OMG')


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:22 pm 
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I see you puny little country wasn't attacked.

I guess the moral of the story is, Don't F with America. And perhaps a "You're Welcome" to the many of millions of now freed people around the world. Yes, we shouldn't be the police all the time but who's going to stand up to the injustice? Your puny little country? Ha!

It sucks that so much of the world's richest comes from America or from the opportunity that America affords them. Yes, my kids might one day become billionaires and it's thanks to freedom and opportunity and hard work. Stop being jealous of people who have figured it out and start teaching others how they might get there, too.

You keep your 50% tax rate, I'll keep my freedom.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:35 pm 
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A major motivator for the perpetrators of the worst terror attack on my country was the USA "standing up to injustice", invading Iraq and the massive quantities of civilian casualties that followed.

So... Errr... Thank you for indirectly causing the deaths of 52 people.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:02 pm 
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Steve,

You are becoming an embarrassment for most of, if not all, the fellow Americans in this forum. I pray (and yes, I said "pray") that members of this forum understand that you do not represent the majority of this country, not even the majority of the conservatives. Your far right-wing doctrine is of course your right. Your calling those who do not agree with you ignorant (among other insults) and insulting other countries, and other members of this forum is not a RIGHT.

Your view of America's might and their right to use it is heavily distorted, and one of the reasons why there is so much resentment towards this country world-wide and more specifically in this forum. I have "fought" for nearly 15 years in this forum against anti-American sentiments, and now I find you giving them many more reasons to feel as they do. The term "ugly American" did not grow out of jealousy, it grew out of those who show no respect for other countries, cultures, beliefs and contributions.

Though you seem to think that anyone who does not agree with you is weak and ignorant, I want you to know up-front and clear, that I have reported your post to Prema as insulting.

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WCCs = 16
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:35 pm 
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I haven't got either the patience or the ability to click that many times to clear the thread of the drivel a certain member has posted. For what it's worth, he won't keep harassing you for your arguments, nationality or mental states.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:01 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Steve,

You are becoming an embarrassment for most of, if not all, the fellow Americans in this forum. I pray (and yes, I said "pray") that members of this forum understand that you do not represent the majority of this country, not even the majority of the conservatives. Your far right-wing doctrine is of course your right. Your calling those who do not agree with you ignorant (among other insults) and insulting other countries, and other members of this forum is not a RIGHT.

Your view of America's might and their right to use it is heavily distorted, and one of the reasons why there is so much resentment towards this country world-wide and more specifically in this forum. I have "fought" for nearly 15 years in this forum against anti-American sentiments, and now I find you giving them many more reasons to feel as they do. The term "ugly American" did not grow out of jealousy, it grew out of those who show no respect for other countries, cultures, beliefs and contributions.

Though you seem to think that anyone who does not agree with you is weak and ignorant, I want you to know up-front and clear, that I have reported your post to Prema as insulting.

You're the thinking man's American, Blake :) .

(even if our views may contradict on football ;) )

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:28 pm 
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Steve C wrote:
I see you puny little country wasn't attacked.

I guess the moral of the story is, Don't F with America. And perhaps a "You're Welcome" to the many of millions of now freed people around the world. Yes, we shouldn't be the police all the time but who's going to stand up to the injustice? Your puny little country? Ha!


You owe a f*cking apology for that statement. It's disgusting and disgraceful. We followed you in to Afghanistan after the attack on America. You screamed you shouted and WE backed YOU up. Family members and friends lost fighting YOUR war.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:50 am 
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You won't get one, he isn't coming back.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:29 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
You won't get one, he isn't coming back.
But what about his rights under the first amendment! 8O

;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:20 pm 
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Maybe best not to dwell on this. I've already had one email from him asking me to be his mouthpiece in a denial of his own words, I don't need more.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:08 am 
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This little gif pretty much sums up the thread thus far.................




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