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 Post subject: Middle East in 5 years.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:44 pm 
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I dread to think but it may be an all out middle east war. Islamic State want parts of more of the Arab territory. Surely the big hitters will have to come out of their slumber and halt these savages. Trouble is, the surrounding countries have their own internal factions, that could fracture the whole power base, thus playing into the IS's hands.



Please don't send Western troops.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:01 pm 
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I think western troops should just stay the hell away from anything happening there! Not that I don't think any innocents should not be protected, but what good is trying to help innocents in the area at the request of 'friendly' governments when all around the area there is so much internal conflict that after the west goes they can't govern themselves anyway?

This may seem like a naive or harsh comment, but it's exactly what's been happening all over Europe for all of recorded history and we're not even done with it even now even though lots of people in stable countries believe otherwise!

Why should they interfere when our own countries are not as stable as they should be and every time they do, it just gives extra fuel to any religious extremists who believe that they are interfering for religious rather than humanitarian reasons

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:24 am 
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minchy wrote:
I think western troops should just stay the hell away from anything happening there! Not that I don't think any innocents should not be protected, but what good is trying to help innocents in the area at the request of 'friendly' governments when all around the area there is so much internal conflict that after the west goes they can't govern themselves anyway?

This may seem like a naive or harsh comment, but it's exactly what's been happening all over Europe for all of recorded history and we're not even done with it even now even though lots of people in stable countries believe otherwise!

Why should they interfere when our own countries are not as stable as they should be and every time they do, it just gives extra fuel to any religious extremists who believe that they are interfering for religious rather than humanitarian reasons


Agree 100%


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:52 am 
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No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:08 am 
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moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.



As a member of the military I find that quite insulting. I would like to think of my self as quite intelligent and could easily make far more money and have a far better life for myself in civilian employment even doing the exact same job I am doing now if I were to switch to corporate would instantly receive around a 25-40% pay rise depending on whether I chose to stay in Australia or move to the middle east. It would also be far easier on my family to not have to move every 3-6 years...

So why would anyone ever choose to disadvantage themselves so much? It doesn't seem very smart. Simply put I could never see myself working anywhere else. I want to feel like my work has actually helped people, that it actually matters. And sure if I all of a sudden didn't turn up someone else would simply take my place, but as futile as it is isn't it better to at least try?... If I had a normal job the only thing I could effect is one companies bottom line. Helping rich people get richer. Why not put my work towards helping people who were dealt a far worst hand than me in life to make it a little bit better?

The military not being sent in is what created the IS problem in the first place. They've been slowly gaining power in syria for years and were given free reign because the popular opinion was "it's not our ptoblem"... Thousands upon thousands of people are being killed, entire towns being decapitated or crucified. Thousands of women being raped to create "IS babies" and it's not our problem just because it's happening somewhere else? It's all of humanities problem. And to stand back and say we can't send in our own troops because someone might get hurt or killed? People are already being hurt and killed! At least the people we could send into harms way know the risk, have accepted it and are still willing to volunteer themselves to try and help those that have had it forced upon them.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:26 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
Thousands of women being raped to create "IS babies" and it's not our problem just because it's happening somewhere else? It's all of humanities problem. And to stand back and say we can't send in our own troops because someone might get hurt or killed? People are already being hurt and killed! At least the people we could send into harms way know the risk, have accepted it and are still willing to volunteer themselves to try and help those that have had it forced upon them.



I respect the Armed Forces. My son is heading in that direction.
I just don't think that our troops are a fix all, in this situation. The Muslim world needs to fix it. Muslims are slaughtering muslims and they have the hardware, wealth, knowledge of the area and the people to effect change.

The problem is, their 'book' has such a massive pull on their rationality and awareness of humanity that it is tragic, frightening and maybe unstoppable.

Our role is quite simply, unappreciated and underestimated by too many people with other agendas. Our peace keeping role and frankly 'common sense and rational' approach to the worlds problems is second to none.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:57 am 
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moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.

Skipped history lessons at school?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:34 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.

Skipped history lessons at school?




No, served in the military (when being shot at and shooting back was a daily occurrence) when modern history was being made. I did notice that leaders of those we were being shot at by soon visited the home of our prime minister and are now in the good guys club. Have you noticed how these groups you mention got started?(Blackhander) Usually with our help as opposition to one of the "bad guys" with plenty of volunteers who have had their family killed in other "operations" by the West.

So do you have any particular history lesson in mind?

Blackhander & runningman67

Was proud and patriotic. I followed my orders and did my best. It is not the people serving who decide where they go and what they do, I respect and admire them. It is the government who make the calls and there is inly one reason the make it. It has nothing to do with principle unless the principle is financial.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:15 pm 
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moby wrote:



Was proud and patriotic. I followed my orders and did my best. It is not the people serving who decide where they go and what they do, I respect and admire them. It is the government who make the calls and there is inly one reason the make it. It has nothing to do with principle unless the principle is financial.


Thanks for serving and I mean that. My dad was RAF.

Regarding governments and principles. I know, Forget it.

The basic principle of Buddhism is to be Happy and free from suffering, which is the last thing the government want us to be, as they would lose their influence and control.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:10 pm 
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runningman67 wrote:
moby wrote:



Was proud and patriotic. I followed my orders and did my best. It is not the people serving who decide where they go and what they do, I respect and admire them. It is the government who make the calls and there is inly one reason the make it. It has nothing to do with principle unless the principle is financial.


Thanks for serving and I mean that. My dad was RAF.

Regarding governments and principles. I know, Forget it.

The basic principle of Buddhism is to be Happy and free from suffering, which is the last thing the government want us to be, as they would lose their influence and control.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:11 pm 
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moby wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.

Skipped history lessons at school?




No, served in the military (when being shot at and shooting back was a daily occurrence) when modern history was being made. I did notice that leaders of those we were being shot at by soon visited the home of our prime minister and are now in the good guys club. Have you noticed how these groups you mention got started?(Blackhander) Usually with our help as opposition to one of the "bad guys" with plenty of volunteers who have had their family killed in other "operations" by the West.

So do you have any particular history lesson in mind?

Blackhander & runningman67

Was proud and patriotic. I followed my orders and did my best. It is not the people serving who decide where they go and what they do, I respect and admire them. It is the government who make the calls and there is inly one reason the make it. It has nothing to do with principle unless the principle is financial.

Fair enough, if we talk about modern history than in many cases yes. However I think the strikes against IS are not motivated by money. It was the brutality of IS that caused the strikes.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:43 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.

Skipped history lessons at school?




No, served in the military (when being shot at and shooting back was a daily occurrence) when modern history was being made. I did notice that leaders of those we were being shot at by soon visited the home of our prime minister and are now in the good guys club. Have you noticed how these groups you mention got started?(Blackhander) Usually with our help as opposition to one of the "bad guys" with plenty of volunteers who have had their family killed in other "operations" by the West.

So do you have any particular history lesson in mind?

Blackhander & runningman67

Was proud and patriotic. I followed my orders and did my best. It is not the people serving who decide where they go and what they do, I respect and admire them. It is the government who make the calls and there is inly one reason the make it. It has nothing to do with principle unless the principle is financial.

Fair enough, if we talk about modern history than in many cases yes. However I think the strikes against IS are not motivated by money. It was the brutality of IS that caused the strikes.


I will not guide you to any sites in particular so you can be independent, but do have a look around on the web for things like who isis are and what group they morphed from and where and how that group got started.
Also read reports of the battles from (I would like to say an unbiased source here, but can not) both sides.

I am not pro Isis by any means, but what we are fed is not always the truth. I wil admit I only know what I read about them, but it was not in the local tabloid or from one source (that is not one paper, but one media owner)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:11 pm 
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moby wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.

Skipped history lessons at school?




No, served in the military (when being shot at and shooting back was a daily occurrence) when modern history was being made. I did notice that leaders of those we were being shot at by soon visited the home of our prime minister and are now in the good guys club. Have you noticed how these groups you mention got started?(Blackhander) Usually with our help as opposition to one of the "bad guys" with plenty of volunteers who have had their family killed in other "operations" by the West.

So do you have any particular history lesson in mind?

Blackhander & runningman67

Was proud and patriotic. I followed my orders and did my best. It is not the people serving who decide where they go and what they do, I respect and admire them. It is the government who make the calls and there is inly one reason the make it. It has nothing to do with principle unless the principle is financial.

Fair enough, if we talk about modern history than in many cases yes. However I think the strikes against IS are not motivated by money. It was the brutality of IS that caused the strikes.


I will not guide you to any sites in particular so you can be independent, but do have a look around on the web for things like who isis are and what group they morphed from and where and how that group got started.
Also read reports of the battles from (I would like to say an unbiased source here, but can not) both sides.

I am not pro Isis by any means, but what we are fed is not always the truth. I wil admit I only know what I read about them, but it was not in the local tabloid or from one source (that is not one paper, but one media owner)

It doesn't matter where they come from. IS message is pretty clear from their videos of executions. I don't like the reports of mass murdering are pretty clear and I don't read, listen or watch any UK media, beyond sports news and some features about culture, nature or science on BBC website. I'm not sure where did you get reports about of any wrongdoing by Iraqi army that are comparable to IS actions.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:26 am 
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IS are the product of American and western war and occupation in the Middle East and the support of dictatorial regimes.

This looks like a long haul war as the currently adopted strategy by the west to bomb IS targets from the air and supply their opposition g with weapons and training is definetly not working. IS is continuing it's expansion and are about to take Kobane and are a stones throw away from Bagdad.

In 5 years I see Iraq and most Syria in the hands of IS and war continuing to rage on as they try to take over Gulf states.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:32 am 
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cmax wrote:
IS are the product of American and western war and occupation in the Middle East and the support of dictatorial regimes.

This looks like a long haul war as the currently adopted strategy by the west to bomb IS targets from the air and supply their opposition g with weapons and training is definetly not working. IS is continuing it's expansion and are about to take Kobane and are a stones throw away from Bagdad.

In 5 years I see Iraq and most Syria in the hands of IS and war continuing to rage on as they try to take over Gulf states.


Training and arming the next is you mean? :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:49 am 
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In 5 years the Middle East will be a place where they have flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children dance and laugh and play with gumdrop smiles or some crap like that

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:49 am 
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specdecible wrote:
In 5 years the Middle East will be a place where they have flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children dance and laugh and play with gumdrop smiles or some crap like that




I don't like chocolate. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:08 pm 
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You know, if the USA started doing what they were doing ~40 years ago again and giving military aid to Iran, we could have the IS problem solved with very little physical western involvement. But oh no, tey are far too happy spreading the "crazy men with beards want to take over the world" rhetoric to do something like that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:47 pm 
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minchy wrote:
I think western troops should just stay the hell away from anything happening there! Not that I don't think any innocents should not be protected, but what good is trying to help innocents in the area at the request of 'friendly' governments when all around the area there is so much internal conflict that after the west goes they can't govern themselves anyway?

This may seem like a naive or harsh comment, but it's exactly what's been happening all over Europe for all of recorded history and we're not even done with it even now even though lots of people in stable countries believe otherwise!

Why should they interfere when our own countries are not as stable as they should be and every time they do, it just gives extra fuel to any religious extremists who believe that they are interfering for religious rather than humanitarian reasons


''Westerners'' has caused this problem and should solve it aswell. It all started with the false Iraq invasion based upon nothing but lies, look how Iraq was before the invasion and i don't have to tell you how it looks now. Saddam was not that perfect but was Bush JR. ?. American also trained and funded and trained the Taliban, helped the coup in Iran caused problems in Iraq, trained and funded IS and are now training other so called ''moderate'' Islamic groups and then overthrown Kadaffi in Lybia because Kadaffi wanted an African currency and now the native black Lybians getting slaughtered in their land by groups who where supported by the American government, using the media to lie about how bad Kadaffi was for his people and more nonsense, there are more dictators in African countries why not remove them too ?, especially in Congo or is it because they provide the Americans with Uranium ?. American greed is what cause all of this, it's plain and simple. So called country of justice and freedom, don't let me laugh.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:50 pm 
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moby wrote:
No matter what is claimed the only time military are sent in is to protect investments or access. Or to deny the same to others of course.

Anything else is utter claptrap.


And look how CHristians in Syria and Iraq getting slaughtered because of the American greed, unbelievable.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:15 pm 
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The last two posts by Royce are more than a bit simplistic to say the least. I am not naive as to the roll the U.S. has played in issues in the middle East, but to think that all of killing is due to "America greed" is to bury one's head in the sand.

To those who have served their countries, Thank You. runningman67, may you son remain safe. My son has served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. I can tell you it is tougher in some ways on the parents I have been told by many.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:27 pm 
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His last 2 post aren't just simplistic but also a load of rubbish. Its easy to blame America they are the big powerful faceless country.

'Saddam was not that perfect' - Understatement of the forum?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:05 pm 
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Blake wrote:
The last two posts by Royce are more than a bit simplistic to say the least. I am not naive as to the roll the U.S. has played in issues in the middle East, but to think that all of killing is due to "America greed" is to bury one's head in the sand.

To those who have served their countries, Thank You. runningman67, may you son remain safe. My son has served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. I can tell you it is tougher in some ways on the parents I have been told by many.


Your son in served in Iraq ?, for what purpose i wonder. The US trained and funded these terrorists groups, it's plaine and simple.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:09 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
His last 2 post aren't just simplistic but also a load of rubbish. Its easy to blame America they are the big powerful faceless country.

'Saddam was not that perfect' - Understatement of the forum?


My post are simply facts. America is the problem here, always sticking there nose in other people's countries yet America is no better with so many injusticeness of there.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:02 am 
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Henri Royce wrote:
Blake wrote:
The last two posts by Royce are more than a bit simplistic to say the least. I am not naive as to the roll the U.S. has played in issues in the middle East, but to think that all of killing is due to "America greed" is to bury one's head in the sand.

To those who have served their countries, Thank You. runningman67, may you son remain safe. My son has served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. I can tell you it is tougher in some ways on the parents I have been told by many.


Your son in served in Iraq ?, for what purpose i wonder. The US trained and funded these terrorists groups, it's plaine and simple.


While it is quite frankly non of your Damn business, however, he was in a medical evacuation unit. He was not there to train terrorists I deeply resent any connection that you are trying to make. I am very proud of him and what he and his unit accomplished for both American soldiers, soldiers of other countries, and what civilians that they could.

Where do you get off with the claims you are making in this thread, particularly towards the U.S.. I have no idea of what country you are from, your personal background, your age, or just education you have, but your repeated incendiary claims are uncalled for and I suggest that you back-off or tell us what your qualification is to be passing judgement as you have been.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:31 am 
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Henri Royce wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:
His last 2 post aren't just simplistic but also a load of rubbish. Its easy to blame America they are the big powerful faceless country.

'Saddam was not that perfect' - Understatement of the forum?


My post are simply facts. America is the problem here, always sticking there nose in other people's countries yet America is no better with so many injusticeness of there.


Prove the 'facts' you claim in the above post.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
Blake wrote:
The last two posts by Royce are more than a bit simplistic to say the least. I am not naive as to the roll the U.S. has played in issues in the middle East, but to think that all of killing is due to "America greed" is to bury one's head in the sand.

To those who have served their countries, Thank You. runningman67, may you son remain safe. My son has served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. I can tell you it is tougher in some ways on the parents I have been told by many.


Your son in served in Iraq ?, for what purpose i wonder. The US trained and funded these terrorists groups, it's plaine and simple.


While it is quite frankly non of your Damn business, however, he was in a medical evacuation unit. He was not there to train terrorists I deeply resent any connection that you are trying to make. I am very proud of him and what he and his unit accomplished for both American soldiers, soldiers of other countries, and what civilians that they could.

Where do you get off with the claims you are making in this thread, particularly towards the U.S.. I have no idea of what country you are from, your personal background, your age, or just education you have, but your repeated incendiary claims are uncalled for and I suggest that you back-off or tell us what your qualification is to be passing judgement as you have been.

I have to agree with Blake, whatever any individual soldier or military serviceman or woman does is quite frankly nothing to do with any issues anywhere in the world. They do their jobs to the best of their ability and despite what any one thinks of the reason they are where they are, all they are doing is their jobs, not deciding where they should be or why they should be there.

There may indeed be some dubious reason that we can guess at but have no proof of, but that would be a select few either in the government or with the governments ear. NOT Americans in general or individuals in the service of their military.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:26 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:
His last 2 post aren't just simplistic but also a load of rubbish. Its easy to blame America they are the big powerful faceless country.

'Saddam was not that perfect' - Understatement of the forum?


My post are simply facts. America is the problem here, always sticking there nose in other people's countries yet America is no better with so many injusticeness of there.


Prove the 'facts' you claim in the above post.


Well, Saddam was not perfect and that's facts No1 and fact No2 is that America always sticking their nose in other countries bussinesses. Who trained and funded the Taliban against the Russians ?. America is THE problem period.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
Blake wrote:
The last two posts by Royce are more than a bit simplistic to say the least. I am not naive as to the roll the U.S. has played in issues in the middle East, but to think that all of killing is due to "America greed" is to bury one's head in the sand.

To those who have served their countries, Thank You. runningman67, may you son remain safe. My son has served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. I can tell you it is tougher in some ways on the parents I have been told by many.


Your son in served in Iraq ?, for what purpose i wonder. The US trained and funded these terrorists groups, it's plaine and simple.


While it is quite frankly non of your Damn business, however, he was in a medical evacuation unit. He was not there to train terrorists I deeply resent any connection that you are trying to make. I am very proud of him and what he and his unit accomplished for both American soldiers, soldiers of other countries, and what civilians that they could.

Where do you get off with the claims you are making in this thread, particularly towards the U.S.. I have no idea of what country you are from, your personal background, your age, or just education you have, but your repeated incendiary claims are uncalled for and I suggest that you back-off or tell us what your qualification is to be passing judgement as you have been.


What was the reason for America to invade Iraq while Saddam did nothing to America ?, tell me. Weapons of mass destruction ?, never been found. America blamed Al Qaida (who where also trained and funded by the CIA) and Bin Ladin who where in Afghanistan yet they invade Iraq, all for the oil. Americans think they are a real super power but they ain't.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:34 pm 
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minchy wrote:
Blake wrote:
Henri Royce wrote:
Blake wrote:
The last two posts by Royce are more than a bit simplistic to say the least. I am not naive as to the roll the U.S. has played in issues in the middle East, but to think that all of killing is due to "America greed" is to bury one's head in the sand.

To those who have served their countries, Thank You. runningman67, may you son remain safe. My son has served in Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. I can tell you it is tougher in some ways on the parents I have been told by many.


Your son in served in Iraq ?, for what purpose i wonder. The US trained and funded these terrorists groups, it's plaine and simple.


While it is quite frankly non of your Damn business, however, he was in a medical evacuation unit. He was not there to train terrorists I deeply resent any connection that you are trying to make. I am very proud of him and what he and his unit accomplished for both American soldiers, soldiers of other countries, and what civilians that they could.

Where do you get off with the claims you are making in this thread, particularly towards the U.S.. I have no idea of what country you are from, your personal background, your age, or just education you have, but your repeated incendiary claims are uncalled for and I suggest that you back-off or tell us what your qualification is to be passing judgement as you have been.

I have to agree with Blake, whatever any individual soldier or military serviceman or woman does is quite frankly nothing to do with any issues anywhere in the world. They do their jobs to the best of their ability and despite what any one thinks of the reason they are where they are, all they are doing is their jobs, not deciding where they should be or why they should be there.

There may indeed be some dubious reason that we can guess at but have no proof of, but that would be a select few either in the government or with the governments ear. NOT Americans in general or individuals in the service of their military.


Listen mate. Because America commit a coup against Saddam Hussein the whole situation in the ME is messed up because of them, the ''western'' media like to down talk other people with how bad they yet America for example is no better, America is a rogue state.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:07 pm 
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Middle East has a lot more problems than America. To blame all of the problems on America is both naive and burying your head in the sand.

Also if America isn't a super power in the world then there simply isn't a super power.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:11 pm 
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royce, not that you would know or care, but I was a very, very vocal critic of the attack on Iraq. Not every American was in favor of it... however, don't let that affect your mass condemnation of Americans. You insinuated that my son's being there might be in connection to training terrorist, and that crossed the line in a big way.

Now, it is obvious that you have an issue the US, but it also obvious that you know very little about the US, very little about much of anything that you have ranted on.

As far as thinking that America is not a "real super power", I can only ask if you are really serious, because, if so, you are one of the few people in the world to deny the power of the US. I have a hard time believing that you could be that naive.

Now, as you have certainly voiced your opinion even down to questioning my family and repeatedly blaming my country for all the troubles in the Middle East, I think it is only appropriate that you answer a couple of questions for me.

1. What is your nationality?
2. What is your personal background (since you seem to feel that you know so much about this topic)?

And please... be honest in your answers, if you don't mind.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:35 am 
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runningman67 wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
Thousands of women being raped to create "IS babies" and it's not our problem just because it's happening somewhere else? It's all of humanities problem. And to stand back and say we can't send in our own troops because someone might get hurt or killed? People are already being hurt and killed! At least the people we could send into harms way know the risk, have accepted it and are still willing to volunteer themselves to try and help those that have had it forced upon them.



I respect the Armed Forces. My son is heading in that direction.
I just don't think that our troops are a fix all, in this situation. The Muslim world needs to fix it. Muslims are slaughtering muslims and they have the hardware, wealth, knowledge of the area and the people to effect change.

The problem is, their 'book' has such a massive pull on their rationality and awareness of humanity that it is tragic, frightening and maybe unstoppable.

Our role is quite simply, unappreciated and underestimated by too many people with other agendas. Our peace keeping role and frankly 'common sense and rational' approach to the worlds problems is second to none.




You are 100% correct in that troops are not a fix all, however I don't think the world of Islam will "fix" anything. Humans have always had differing views in the past and will do so in the future. In this case "fix" probably would just mean a serious bit of subjugation instead of what it is now. Right or wrong is merely something from whoever's point of view happens to be considering what is moral.



Anywhooooo...............there are two rules of thought in foreign policy; (1) stay out or (2) getting involved.

I personally am in the court of get involved. IMHO WWII showed what can happen when you stay out of foreign affairs. While not perfect when you interfere, at least you are making an effort.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:58 am 
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The question is , why is a super power getting involved in the middleast?

And why do they have the right to implement what they refer to as democracy in countries that are thousands of miles away.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:05 am 
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hk77 wrote:
The question is , why is a super power getting involved in the middleast?

And why do they have the right to implement what they refer to as democracy in countries that are thousands of miles away.



This is not a regional issue, this is a global issue.
History keeps repeating itself.
in the 30's our friends in Europe tried to isolate conflicts and look what happened
in the early 40's USA tried to isolate from Japan and Europe, look what happened.

There is no more regional conflicts, we as a global people need to root out evil

Burning people in the name of Islamic religion is not the answer, you have a great religion at war with itself, being hijacked by these fundamentalists that kill in the name of religion.

don't be naive to think regional conflicts can be cured by the region.

The King of Jordon just stopped by the White House tonight, he didn't come over for cake and coffee, he wants the USA to back them when they go after these ISIS crazies, and we should 100% back him up.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:17 am 
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And if anyone can forget that Irag Saddam killed how many of his own people 50-100,000 at least using Weapons of Mass destruction, using Gas and it just took a few bombs, BTW this bombs they had where not purchased from the USA as I am sure your thinking.

USA supported Iran (the old Shah) and then Iraq after Iran killed Americans and took a few hostages maybe you remember that.

But really saying this is USA fault is so far from the truth and its easy to go after the US because we can take it....go blame Moscow and see what Putin will do. It is funny to blame the USA but when the world really needs a friend who comes to help? Ask France, Ask England, Ask Israel ask Europe , Ask Kuwait.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:40 am 
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AstoriaisBACK wrote:
And if anyone can forget that Irag Saddam killed how many of his own people 50-100,000 at least using Weapons of Mass destruction, using Gas and it just took a few bombs, BTW this bombs they had where not purchased from the USA as I am sure your thinking.

USA supported Iran (the old Shah) and then Iraq after Iran killed Americans and took a few hostages maybe you remember that.

But really saying this is USA fault is so far from the truth and its easy to go after the US because we can take it....go blame Moscow and see what Putin will do. It is funny to blame the USA but when the world really needs a friend who comes to help? Ask France, Ask England, Ask Israel ask Europe , Ask Kuwait.


Btw I'm not blaming U.S. Citizens, im just questioning the foreign policy of the U.S. Government in the middleast.

Also
Wmd were never found.

Moscow is not implementing democracy in the middleast.
Also, there is no reason to believe as you mentioned that those bombs were purchases from the U.S.,more and above saying that saddam killed 50-100 thousand of his own people without saying how many have died since the U.S. Decided to invade Iraq in 2003 is quite unfair. And yes, in the Middle East its looked upon as an invasion.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:55 am 
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hk77 wrote:
AstoriaisBACK wrote:
And if anyone can forget that Irag Saddam killed how many of his own people 50-100,000 at least using Weapons of Mass destruction, using Gas and it just took a few bombs, BTW this bombs they had where not purchased from the USA as I am sure your thinking.

USA supported Iran (the old Shah) and then Iraq after Iran killed Americans and took a few hostages maybe you remember that.

But really saying this is USA fault is so far from the truth and its easy to go after the US because we can take it....go blame Moscow and see what Putin will do. It is funny to blame the USA but when the world really needs a friend who comes to help? Ask France, Ask England, Ask Israel ask Europe , Ask Kuwait.


Btw I'm not blaming U.S. Citizens, im just questioning the foreign policy of the U.S. Government in the middleast.

Also
Wmd were never found.

Moscow is not implementing democracy in the middleast.
Also, there is no reason to believe as you mentioned that those bombs were purchases from the U.S.,more and above saying that saddam killed 50-100 thousand of his own people without saying how many have died since the U.S. Decided to invade Iraq in 2003 is quite unfair. And yes, in the Middle East its looked upon as an invasion.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... ein's_Iraq
this report says about 180,000 of his own people he killed.
The WMD I was referring to was the ones he used on his own people again documented
Now the US didn't just 1 day decide to invade Iraq because it didn't have anything better to do that day.
Iraq was helping terrorists/aiding them and also Sadam was involved in aiding the 9/11 terrorists. So invading Iraq was totally justified, Im not saying most of us approved it, however it was totally justified. We also came to the aid of Kuwait when they Invaded Kuawait for what reason did he do that for??
You have a very limited memory when it comes to the reasons why the US invaded Iraq and came to the Aid of Kuwait and also lets not forget Saudia Arabia was also very concerned that Iraq was going to invade them so much so that Saudia Arabia bankrolled the whole Kuwait Conflict.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:30 am 
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Astoria, my friend.

I believe that Hussein and Al ahead were far from partners in 9/11...enemies would be the closer term. It is very unlikely that the terrorists were sheltered in Iraq. they say war can make strange bedfellows, and the invasion of Iraq, post 9/11, as I understand it, did bring those factions together to fight the coalition.

The saddest part of it is...the war was based on lies...and 100s of thousands of people paid for it with their lives, including over 4,000 of our Fellow Americans. I was vehemently opposed to the season Iraq war, and found it tragic that the only country to stand up to the most powerful country on earth was the same one often mocked as cowards... the French. I wish more would have stood up to us as France did ...they demanded proof of the WMD before war...as we all should have. It would trivialized it far to much to just say that it was not our finest hour

I believe that our encouraging the war in Iraq,in reality had nothing to do with non-existent WMDs, and everything to do with. OIL, and a buffer zone for the Saudis and Iran. No I certainly cannot agree that the Iraq war was justified in any way.

We can't really use civil abuses, even mass murder, as an excuse for invading, for if we how do we defend the African countries who have even worse civil abuses that we have not intervened in? Perhaps if they had oil we would have come running.

Now Afghanistan h Afganhistan I feel differently about..., though I 'm in favor of us withdrawing totally.

I love this country, I have two on my four children active involved in keeping it safe, but I try not to be naive about our faults though... despite what some members of this forum would believe.
:)

I don't want to see this thread get sidetracked and nasty like a recent thread did, so I am going to move on, or at least try to, but I had explain the Iraq war as I saw it from very, very much too close a view.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Blake
your opinion is of course yours and respected. The problem with Iraq war from my perspective after losing 10 of my good friends on 9/11 and actually getting ready for a meeting at the Hilton across the street that morning and being part of that horror will never leave me. Iraq had in fact harbored terrorists and aided supporters of them after 9/11. We can argue why we went to war, WMDs is a common and popular narrative to say well we didn't find any so it wasn't a just war. We now know that these terrorists are boarder less and they were given safe harbor by many countries, Iran, Iraq, Syria among others. My point is if you lost thousands on 9/11 and they were innocent, they didn't attack a military installation, they didn't attack a war ship they attacked a building where my friends worked and my Police and Firemen friends protected.

Once you realize there are no borders than its your job to root out evil and destroy it no matter where it takes. Sadam killed 100s of Thousands of his own people, they were shooting scud missiles into Israel and they had WMDs that were sued against there own people. This is indisputable. it is fact.

I pray for your kids safety and those of all military no matter the uniform and flag they use. I think that today there is no country to country conflicts in the middle east it is a radical religious faction that is fundamentally trying to change the world, and we should stop that, in fact the Muslim people should stand up and say this hijacking of a great religion is wrong and fight against it.

Ask Jordon today if they are Ok with standing still? They want to fight, they asked the USA to give them more arms and give them support to fight this. my point again is that there is no regional battles its all global and Jordan by having the King ask the USA to help supports this position. Jordan boarders Iraq and Syria and is the next country to fall if these extremists are not stopped. What regional country will support Jordan? keep thinking while the USA offers that support.

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