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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:09 am 
A thread for interesting little facts, I found this one surprising...

Williams "mediocre" run spans for nearly half of the time the team has been in existence.

Founded in 1978, in their first 19 years they won 9 constructors titles and 7 drivers titles. 16 titles in 19 years.
Since then, 16 years (nearly half their history) they have won none of each 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:21 am 
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Maybe I shouldn't be so worried about the future of Williams.

However, given the way regulations have been tightened so much I still feel Williams are in a bad way and sadly may not last in F1 for too much longer.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:33 am 
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Sponsorship is so hard to come by. I hope and pray they can stay afloat, but I think its just not the same as it once was.

After 2006, things steadily began to decline. They are doing well in the market thought at least from my understanding.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:41 am 
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lamo wrote:
A thread for interesting little facts, I found this one surprising...

Williams "mediocre" run spans for nearly half of the time the team has been in existence.

Founded in 1978, in their first 19 years they won 9 constructors titles and 7 drivers titles. 16 titles in 19 years.
Since then, 16 years (nearly half their history) they have won none of each 8O

That stat makes me feel old. Williams were the be all and end all when I started watching.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:26 am 
Williams need to be a manufacturer on board, the name still has a bit of magic to it and they do not produce road cars so perfect for a manufacturer to get into bed with.

Another statistic is Mclaren have won one constructors title in 23 seasons. That is since 1991, but in the 8 seasons before they won 6 constructors titles.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:39 am 
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Every year from the first Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne in 1996 to 2004, the front row was locked out by one team

96 - Williams
97 - Williams
98 - McLaren
99 - McLaren
00 - Ferrari
01 - Ferrari
02 - Ferrari
03 - Ferrari
04 - Ferrari

And then...

09 - Brawn
10 - Red Bull
12 - McLaren
13 - Red Bull

Based on history, there is a 76% chance that the front row in Melbourne will be locked out


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:33 pm 
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nate wrote:
Every year from the first Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne in 1996 to 2004, the front row was locked out by one team

96 - Williams
97 - Williams
98 - McLaren
99 - McLaren
00 - Ferrari
01 - Ferrari
02 - Ferrari
03 - Ferrari
04 - Ferrari

And then...

09 - Brawn
10 - Red Bull
12 - McLaren
13 - Red Bull

Based on history, there is a 76% chance that the front row in Melbourne will be locked out

Only one team on that list failed to win a title in that year. McLaren well and truly made a balls of 2012 didn't they

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:46 pm 
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nate wrote:
Every year from the first Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne in 1996 to 2004, the front row was locked out by one team

96 - Williams
97 - Williams
98 - McLaren
99 - McLaren
00 - Ferrari
01 - Ferrari
02 - Ferrari
03 - Ferrari
04 - Ferrari

And then...

09 - Brawn
10 - Red Bull
12 - McLaren
13 - Red Bull

Based on history, there is a 76% chance that the front row in Melbourne will be locked out


Very interesting stats; I completed my detailed analysis of GP racing 1894 to 1993, and came up with similar stats: sucess was never democratically shared, it was always a monopoly. Imo this is due to the cars, not the drivers.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:52 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Williams need to be a manufacturer on board, the name still has a bit of magic to it and they do not produce road cars so perfect for a manufacturer to get into bed with.

Another statistic is Mclaren have won one constructors title in 23 seasons. That is since 1991, but in the 8 seasons before they won 6 constructors titles.


Amazing how these stats can give a reality check: I always thought McLaren were much more succesful, and had not realised how many seasons Williams were less than top!

Keep them going, Iamo.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:28 pm 
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There was a week when McLaren were the most successful team in F1 Grand Prix history (overtaking Ferrari and Williams). It might have lasted for a short while after that. I think the stats were about 99 race wins for Williams and about 104 for Ferrari/McLaren.

They were the top three teams, both in history and at that moment in time. Then Schumacher ruined it all ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:39 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
There was a week when McLaren were the most successful team in F1 Grand Prix history (overtaking Ferrari and Williams). It might have lasted for a short while after that. I think the stats were about 99 race wins for Williams and about 104 for Ferrari/McLaren.

They were the top three teams, both in history and at that moment in time. Then Schumacher ruined it all ;)

that was good :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:41 pm 
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1:21.072


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:49 pm 
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The winner of the Hungarian GP very rarely goes on to win the title that year

Code:
Year  |Winner  | Champion

2012  Hamilton    Vettel
2011  Button      Vettel
2010  Webber      Vettel
2009  Hamilton    Button
2008  Kovalainen  Hamilton
2007  Hamilton    Raikkonen
2006  Button      Alonso
2005  Raikkonen   Alonso
2003  Alonso      Schumacher
2002  Barrichello  Schumacher
2000  Hakkinen    Schumacher
1998  Schumacher  Hakkinen


In the past 15 years alone. The winner of the Hungarian GP has gone on to win the championship only 3 of the 15 times.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:12 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
The winner of the Hungarian GP very rarely goes on to win the title that year

Code:
Year  |Winner  | Champion

2012  Hamilton    Vettel
2011  Button      Vettel
2010  Webber      Vettel
2009  Hamilton    Button
2008  Kovalainen  Hamilton
2007  Hamilton    Raikkonen
2006  Button      Alonso
2005  Raikkonen   Alonso
2003  Alonso      Schumacher
2002  Barrichello  Schumacher
2000  Hakkinen    Schumacher
1998  Schumacher  Hakkinen


In the past 15 years alone. The winner of the Hungarian GP has gone on to win the championship only 3 of the 15 times.


That's pretty amazing. And looks set to continue this year. I wonder if it's due to the atypical nature of the circuit

Here's a follow up task then for you RunningMan :)

1) How many times in the same period has the Monaco winner gone on to win the championship?

2) Which track is most conducive to being won by the eventual world champion?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Here are another couple for you...

1) If Alonso had scored just 11 more points throughout his career, he could've been a 5 times WDC

2) At Abu Dhabi 2010, Alonso needed to pass not just Petrov to become WDC, but also Kubica and Rosberg ahead of him. HOWEVER, had he passed just Petrov and Kubica (4 secs ahead), while Vettel would still have become WDC, he would have done so on countback only by virtue of one more 4th place throughout the season


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:40 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
The winner of the Hungarian GP very rarely goes on to win the title that year

Code:
Year  |Winner  | Champion

2012  Hamilton    Vettel
2011  Button      Vettel
2010  Webber      Vettel
2009  Hamilton    Button
2008  Kovalainen  Hamilton
2007  Hamilton    Raikkonen
2006  Button      Alonso
2005  Raikkonen   Alonso
2003  Alonso      Schumacher
2002  Barrichello  Schumacher
2000  Hakkinen    Schumacher
1998  Schumacher  Hakkinen


In the past 15 years alone. The winner of the Hungarian GP has gone on to win the championship only 3 of the 15 times.

Wow I'm genuinely surprised Vettel has never won in Hungary. Thinking back now I can remember each race, still surprising though.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:52 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
nate wrote:
Every year from the first Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne in 1996 to 2004, the front row was locked out by one team

96 - Williams
97 - Williams
98 - McLaren
99 - McLaren
00 - Ferrari
01 - Ferrari
02 - Ferrari
03 - Ferrari
04 - Ferrari

And then...

09 - Brawn
10 - Red Bull
12 - McLaren
13 - Red Bull

Based on history, there is a 76% chance that the front row in Melbourne will be locked out

Only one team on that list failed to win a title in that year. McLaren well and truly made a balls of 2012 didn't they


Yup :)

And just an interesting follow up. If we ignore the 'qualify with fuel' era, i.e. look only at the results when drivers have qualified with low fuel...

Only 1 time in 10 qualifying sessions has a team not locked out the front row. This was in 2011 when Vettel took pole and Webber 3rd


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:55 pm 
nate wrote:
Here are another couple for you...

1) If Alonso had scored just 11 more points throughout his career, he could've been a 5 times WDC

2) At Abu Dhabi 2010, Alonso needed to pass not just Petrov to become WDC, but also Kubica and Rosberg ahead of him. HOWEVER, had he passed just Petrov and Kubica (4 secs ahead), while Vettel would still have become WDC, he would have done so on countback only by virtue of one more 4th place throughout the season



If Prost had scored something like 13 more he would be a 7 times WDC.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
1:21.072

Jerez 97 qualifying. Schumacher recorded the time followed by Villeneuve then Frentzen?

Was tempted to look it up in case I was well off the mark, but decided to once go for gut instinct.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:02 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Williams need to be a manufacturer on board, the name still has a bit of magic to it and they do not produce road cars so perfect for a manufacturer to get into bed with.

Another statistic is Mclaren have won one constructors title in 23 seasons. That is since 1991, but in the 8 seasons before they won 6 constructors titles.

How many times were they each competing at the front and didn't win a title though? Just by taking the titles into account, Jordan were no better than Minardi or Caterham.

Titles don't always give the whole picture. In that same 23 years McLaren have won 4 WDCs. Perhaps in that period Williams and McLaren aren't far apart, but McLaren have invested more wisely away from the track. They're more likely to stay in business.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
1:21.072


The most convenient glitch in the timing software or a deliberate set-up for a season finale. The whole thing was brushed aside as if nothing had happened.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Before Schumacher won at Ferrari, wasn't it 21 years since they had won a championship ?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:20 pm 
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The monaco winner is much more likely to win the championship than the Hungarian winner.

Code:
Year  Winner  Champion
2011  Vettel    Vettel
2009  Button    Button
2008  Hamilton  Hamilton
2006  Alonso    Alonso
2001  Schumacher  Schumacher
1998  Hakkinen    Hakkinen

In the last 15 years. The winner of Monaco has gone on to win the championship 6 times.

If I were to guess, Japan would have the highest number.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Since I mentioned it, I may as well work out Japan

Code:
Year    Winner    Champion
2012    Vettel      Vettel
2011    Button      Vettel
2010    Vettel      Vettel
2009    Vettel      Button
2008    Alonso      Hamilton
2007    Hamilton    Raikkonen
2006    Alonso      Alonso
2005    Raikkonen   Alonso
2004    Schumacher  Schumacher
2003    Barrichello Schumacher
2002    Schumacher  Schumacher
2001    Schumacher  Schumacher
2000    Schumacher  Schumacher
1999    Hakkinen    Hakkinen
1998    Hakkinen    Hakkinen


9 times out of 15 years for Japan. I should probably call it 14 since I'm not including the 2013 races. Still very high

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:34 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Since I mentioned it, I may as well work out Japan

Code:
Year    Winner    Champion
2012    Vettel      Vettel
2011    Button      Vettel
2010    Vettel      Vettel
2009    Vettel      Button
2008    Alonso      Hamilton
2007    Hamilton    Raikkonen
2006    Alonso      Alonso
2005    Raikkonen   Alonso
2004    Schumacher  Schumacher
2003    Barrichello Schumacher
2002    Schumacher  Schumacher
2001    Schumacher  Schumacher
2000    Schumacher  Schumacher
1999    Hakkinen    Hakkinen
1998    Hakkinen    Hakkinen


9 times out of 15 years for Japan. I should probably call it 14 since I'm not including the 2013 races. Still very high

:thumbup: Good stat!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:35 am 
scuderia_stevie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Williams need to be a manufacturer on board, the name still has a bit of magic to it and they do not produce road cars so perfect for a manufacturer to get into bed with.

Another statistic is Mclaren have won one constructors title in 23 seasons. That is since 1991, but in the 8 seasons before they won 6 constructors titles.

How many times were they each competing at the front and didn't win a title though? Just by taking the titles into account, Jordan were no better than Minardi or Caterham.

Titles don't always give the whole picture. In that same 23 years McLaren have won 4 WDCs. Perhaps in that period Williams and McLaren aren't far apart, but McLaren have invested more wisely away from the track. They're more likely to stay in business.


The comparison still holds for Mclaren. During their height in the eighties they had the WCC won little over past halfway in the season during 84,85, 88 and 89. Even in 90 and 91 it was won with quite a few races to spare. So that's quite a step behind merely competing for the WCC which they managed in 99,00,05,07,08 and 10. Still only 6/15 seasons they've been contenders in the WCC.

You are right titles are not everything, but you can step down from titles and go with wins. Williams have won 1 race in 9 seasons now so it still paints the same picture. You can differentiate Jordan from Minardi by wins and Toyota from Minardi by podiums.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:08 am 
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beanchimp wrote:
Before Schumacher won at Ferrari, wasn't it 21 years since they had won a championship ?


Yes and you could make a convincing argument that historically Ferrari have not been that successful.

No WDCs in the 80's or 90's, 3 in the 70s, 2 in the 60s and 4 in the 50s.

They have won 221 but before Schumacher joined in 96 they had only won 105.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
beanchimp wrote:
Before Schumacher won at Ferrari, wasn't it 21 years since they had won a championship ?


Yes and you could make a convincing argument that historically Ferrari have not been that successful.

No WDCs in the 80's or 90's, 3 in the 70s, 2 in the 60s and 4 in the 50s.

They have won 221 but before Schumacher joined in 96 they had only won 105.


A really amazing stat and clever way of placing a team's achievements in perspective.

And with Scumacher came Brawn, Byrne and together MS and Todt built up and reorganised the various departments into a cohesive unit, incl paolo Martinelli on engines. As Newey, Horner, etc have done at Red Bull-Renault.

It would be interesting to say the least, if one could assess the value of the Schumachers, Clarks, Stewarts to their teams, as opposed to other contemporary drivers who were about as fast? I don't believe Frank Williams's 'plug in another driver'approach would or ever did work, unless the car had a huge performance advantage.

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Last edited by POBRatings on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:00 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Since I mentioned it, I may as well work out Japan

Code:
Year    Winner    Champion
2012    Vettel      Vettel
2011    Button      Vettel
2010    Vettel      Vettel
2009    Vettel      Button
2008    Alonso      Hamilton
2007    Hamilton    Raikkonen
2006    Alonso      Alonso
2005    Raikkonen   Alonso
2004    Schumacher  Schumacher
2003    Barrichello Schumacher
2002    Schumacher  Schumacher
2001    Schumacher  Schumacher
2000    Schumacher  Schumacher
1999    Hakkinen    Hakkinen
1998    Hakkinen    Hakkinen


9 times out of 15 years for Japan. I should probably call it 14 since I'm not including the 2013 races. Still very high


Bahrain is also pretty high (six of the nine races held there have been won by the guy who ultimately claimed the WDC) while Spain, Malaysia and Canada can all say at least half of the races in the past 15 seasons have been won by that year's Champion (eight of 15 in the case of Spain and Malaysia, and seven of 14 in Canada).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:03 pm 
I thought pole at Spain was the biggest influence on who won the title. Kind of Ironic and telling that Hamilton had pole there last year but lost it due to Mclaren error. Story of the season.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:48 pm 
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scuderia_stevie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Williams need to be a manufacturer on board, the name still has a bit of magic to it and they do not produce road cars so perfect for a manufacturer to get into bed with.

Another statistic is Mclaren have won one constructors title in 23 seasons. That is since 1991, but in the 8 seasons before they won 6 constructors titles.

How many times were they each competing at the front and didn't win a title though? Just by taking the titles into account, Jordan were no better than Minardi or Caterham.

Titles don't always give the whole picture. In that same 23 years McLaren have won 4 WDCs. Perhaps in that period Williams and McLaren aren't far apart, but McLaren have invested more wisely away from the track. They're more likely to stay in business.


You're right - the McLaren statistic is somewhat misleading. When you tally up points for each driver, McLaren would have won the constructors title in 2007, and they came really close to winning it in '99, '00 and '05. Statistical anomalies are evident when one only looks at wins.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:36 pm 
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zoomsthru wrote:
scuderia_stevie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Williams need to be a manufacturer on board, the name still has a bit of magic to it and they do not produce road cars so perfect for a manufacturer to get into bed with.

Another statistic is Mclaren have won one constructors title in 23 seasons. That is since 1991, but in the 8 seasons before they won 6 constructors titles.

How many times were they each competing at the front and didn't win a title though? Just by taking the titles into account, Jordan were no better than Minardi or Caterham.

Titles don't always give the whole picture. In that same 23 years McLaren have won 4 WDCs. Perhaps in that period Williams and McLaren aren't far apart, but McLaren have invested more wisely away from the track. They're more likely to stay in business.


You're right - the McLaren statistic is somewhat misleading. When you tally up points for each driver, McLaren would have won the constructors title in 2007, and they came really close to winning it in '99, '00 and '05. Statistical anomalies are evident when one only looks at wins.


You're right statistical anomalies occur when wins only are counted/used for comparison; same with WDCs, WCCs and championship points. Often these various methods do not coincide and each measure usually provides different views.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:37 pm 
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oooh I got a good one.

Only 3 drivers in history have have had 2 consecutive Grand Chelem's (Pole, Win, Fastest lap & lead every lap of the race, only 53 have ever been achieved)

Alberto Ascari (1952 German Grand Prix and 1952 Dutch Grand Prix)

Jim Clark (1963 Dutch Grand Prix and 1963 French Grand Prix)

Sebastian Vettel (2013 Singapore Grand Prix and 2013 Korean Grand Prix).

If Vettel can do the same at Japan he will hold the record by himself, still pretty cool that he is sharing it with two drivers of that stature.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Only 3 drivers in history have have had 2 consecutive Grand Chelem's (Pole, Win, Fastest lap & lead every lap of the race, only 53 have ever been achieved)

Sebastian Vettel (2013 Singapore Grand Prix and 2013 Korean Grand Prix).

If Vettel can do the same at Japan he will hold the record by himself, still pretty cool that he is sharing it with two drivers of that stature.


Did Seb lead every lap in Korea? I thought through the pit stops that Webber led a full lap - did he pit before completing that lap thus handing the lead back to Vettel?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:43 pm 
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I think Spain GP would be the pretty good indicator for the car's aero/speed and hence the WDC.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:26 pm 
Grand Chelem does not include leading every lap does it?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:40 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Grand Chelem does not include leading every lap does it?

I think it does.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:01 am 
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SehnKhan wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Only 3 drivers in history have have had 2 consecutive Grand Chelem's (Pole, Win, Fastest lap & lead every lap of the race, only 53 have ever been achieved)

Sebastian Vettel (2013 Singapore Grand Prix and 2013 Korean Grand Prix).

If Vettel can do the same at Japan he will hold the record by himself, still pretty cool that he is sharing it with two drivers of that stature.


Did Seb lead every lap in Korea? I thought through the pit stops that Webber led a full lap - did he pit before completing that lap thus handing the lead back to Vettel?

That was the impression I got (pitted before finishing lap) from Matchett's commentary on NBC.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:20 am 
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Only one team ever won the F1 championship, the world sport scar championship & the word rallying championship in the same year.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:12 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
lamo wrote:
Grand Chelem does not include leading every lap does it?

I think it does.

http://f1.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Chelem
Quote:
A Grand Chelem or Grand Slam is scored in motor racing if a driver scores pole position in qualifying, the fastest lap in the race and then winning while leading every lap of the race in the same weekend.


As for whether Vettel did lead every lap at Korea I believe so as Webber was pitted immediately, it was pointed out by commentators because Vettel was only about a second off him by the end of the lap.


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