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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:56 pm 
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The Native wrote:
Heymans wrote:
so...what do they do then? why does a boat need hydraulic pressure?

The boats use hydraulics to raise and lower the daggerboards, control the rudders and provide lift for the foils.


Cheers. The bolded part, I thought foils would lift the boat one it reaches a certain speed due to portance? Do they also use mechanical force input? (yeah I'm not a physicist)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:08 am 
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Heymans wrote:
The Native wrote:
Heymans wrote:
so...what do they do then? why does a boat need hydraulic pressure?

The boats use hydraulics to raise and lower the daggerboards, control the rudders and provide lift for the foils.


Cheers. The bolded part, I thought foils would lift the boat one it reaches a certain speed due to portance? Do they also use mechanical force input? (yeah I'm not a physicist)

As far as I know, they foils act much like the flight control surfaces on a plane and are run purely on hydraulic power with no direct input, under different conditions they're adjusted to provide less or more lift - such as in light winds. The hydraulic system also controls the wing sail - which are rigid and not like conventional sails.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:37 am 
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To trim the jib and wing as well. There are no winches or sheets.

edit...Done I see.


Last edited by usermame on Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:43 am 
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As I understand it:

Less draggy foils, (faster), are less stable and require constant adjustment of the AOA in order to maintain stable flight, therefore they are a constant drain on the hydraulic system. They and the rudders may be connected to accumulators that may hold 30kJ to 60kJ, which may be enough for 15 to 30 seconds operation if the boat consumes 2 kW. All very much rough ball park estimates.

If no losses occur, 60kJ at 4 grinders at 0.3kW each may take 50 seconds to charge the accumulators fully. I have read there will be 50% loss in charging, so 100 seconds if that is the case. One can see the immediate advantage of 4 saiclists at 0.5kW each whatever the actual figures and conditions may be.

The wing and jib systems have no accumulator in their circuit and changes to them must be powered by current human input through the hydraulic system


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:01 am 
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The Native wrote:
Heymans wrote:
so...what do they do then? why does a boat need hydraulic pressure?

The boats use hydraulics to raise and lower the daggerboards, control the rudders and provide lift for the foils.

Trim the wing too. Their ability to do all of these things quicker will improve the boat's performance and lessen the fatigue on the grinders. With the reduction in crew numbers it could be quite a plus.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:56 am 
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I reckon it is brilliant.

That is the extent of my sailing knowledge.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:08 am 
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So trying to understand this. If you have four grinders / pedallers? and one driver, then what does the sixth person do? Trimmer or tactician?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:33 am 
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4 grinders, who also do some of the trimming for foils etc I think the trim controls are integrated to the grinding stations, 1 helmsman, 1 wing trimmer


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:48 am 
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Looks like Orace are channeling their inner Dennis Connor - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11824023

So Oracle and four other syndicates have all formed a neat little committee and TNZ is the only one not in the club.

Christ I hope we win back the Cup and put those twats in their places.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:59 am 
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Shit, I don't like Dalton and I'm a Kiwi. Of course the other teams will do everything they can to shaft him


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:03 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
Shit, I don't like Dalton and I'm a Kiwi. Of course the other teams will do everything they can to shaft him

Dalton is a crabby plum. But I'd rather have us leading the future of the Americas Cup than those wankers from Team USA and their cronies.

If TNZ do win it I hope they go back to mono-hulls and not this F1 on water stuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:23 am 
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The Native wrote:
Looks like Orace are channeling their inner Dennis Connor - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11824023

So Oracle and four other syndicates have all formed a neat little committee and TNZ is the only one not in the club.

Christ I hope we win back the Cup and put those twats in their places.



What does this part mean?

Quote:
Discomfort over the close working relationship between Oracle and the four other challengers intensified earlier this year, when the five syndicates signed an agreement setting out the framework for the next two editions of the Cup, regardless of the victor in Bermuda.


Which part of the next few cups is already determined?

The boats? The rules? The venue?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:56 am 
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I haven't read much into it, but it could encompass class of boat, the development of said boat, where and how the racing series takes place, how the LV and AC is managed and adjudicated and a multitude of other regulations and conditions. When TNZ wrested the AC from the New York Yacht Club there was, as I understand it, a collective breath form the rest of the AC sailing fraternity as the NYYC could no longer dictate when, how, where the AC was to be raced and competed for. TNZ could've gone the route of stacking everything in their favor as the NYYC did but wanted a more even playing field. Oracle is taking the AC back to the days of the 132 year "winning" streak of the NYYC holding the AC. And they've got the 4 other syndicates to join them.

Saying that, I don't know a hell of a lot about the above as far as all the details go so someone better informed will probably be able to give you a far more authoritative answer.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:12 am 
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The Native wrote:
I haven't read much into it, but it could encompass class of boat, the development of said boat, where and how the racing series takes place, how the LV and AC is managed and adjudicated and a multitude of other regulations and conditions. When TNZ wrested the AC from the New York Yacht Club there was, as I understand it, a collective breath form the rest of the AC sailing fraternity as the NYYC could no longer dictate when, how, where the AC was to be raced and competed for. TNZ could've gone the route of stacking everything in their favor as the NYYC did but wanted a more even playing field. Oracle is taking the AC back to the days of the 132 year "winning" streak of the NYYC holding the AC. And they've got the 4 other syndicates to join them.

Saying that, I don't know a hell of a lot about the above as far as all the details go so someone better informed will probably be able to give you a far more authoritative answer.

Anyone but the farking kiwis


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:19 am 
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Enzedder wrote:
That is smoking it - really high on the foils.

Image


Pffff... Any fit tourist...

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:38 am 
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globus wrote:
Been looking at this. At this level, an ability to tack or gybe within a short time is a major advantage. In light winds this is a massive bonus.

I suspect it's not the finished product but it adds to the equation. The jury is out. I'll be on this like a dog with a slipper when things kick off.



That's always a major problem with normal multihulls - you basically stall when you tack.
These boats can now tack on the foil.

I'm still not happy with the use of a computer to maintain the trim of the foils. May as well allow electric motors.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:45 am 
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Quote:
The defending champions, not wanting to leave anything to chance, also worked with BMW to integrate a steering system derived from touring car racing. Applying the semi-automated systems designed for automotive applications, the engineers made a yacht that responds to a turn of the wheel nearly instantaneously—instead of taking two seconds.



f**k me, don't show them one of these, then!


Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:10 am 
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The side changing exercise is interesting...

Spoiler: show
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:17 am 
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_fb_ wrote:
Quote:
The defending champions, not wanting to leave anything to chance, also worked with BMW to integrate a steering system derived from touring car racing. Applying the semi-automated systems designed for automotive applications, the engineers made a yacht that responds to a turn of the wheel nearly instantaneously—instead of taking two seconds.



f**k me, don't show them one of these, then!


Image

A rudder takes time to bite and turn the boat. Ever tried changing directions in a kayak quickly?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:25 pm 
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_fb_ wrote:
globus wrote:
Been looking at this. At this level, an ability to tack or gybe within a short time is a major advantage. In light winds this is a massive bonus.

I suspect it's not the finished product but it adds to the equation. The jury is out. I'll be on this like a dog with a slipper when things kick off.



That's always a major problem with normal multihulls - you basically stall when you tack.
These boats can now tack on the foil.

I'm still not happy with the use of a computer to maintain the trim of the foils. May as well allow electric motors.

Agreed. Conventional multis gybe well but are sluggish tackers. You only have to go out on a Dart to find that out.

I don't want to be Mr Precious about this, I love sailing monohulls but this is the new techno.

I've already been using some quite powerful bits of nav and other kit and it's fun.

The inputs from lots of detail bunged into a "computer" and you have full colour decision making machine is fascinating.

I come from the days of dropping the lead to make sure you didn't bump into a bit of shallow land.

That's where the phrase "swinging the lead" comes from. Basically a lazy crew at the front.

Gone aground once on Brambles Bank. Told my best man to stay on the right. Went below to make coffee. Next thing I feel is a shuddering stop. He'd lost concentration, ignored my instructions and had gone left.

Thank the Lord we were on a rising tide otherwise we'd have been there for about 4 hours, at 45 degrees.

Big lesson for me as a skipper.

Don't trust your best man.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:50 pm 
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It would be awesome to be in Bermuda for this. Anyone been? It looks like an amazing place. I met a girl from Bermuda once. She was as close to a 10 as I have ever met. A real Elle McPherson level knockout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvycdvwkcDA


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Sailed there SOTN. It's ok. I thought a bit soulless but there wasn't a Cup race on.

It's a bit of a slog from the BVI. I have no idea why we decided to go there, and back.

Alcohol probably. Had my Bermuda shorts on though. Oscar Jacobson.

Funny the silly things you remember.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
It would be awesome to be in Bermuda for this. Anyone been? It looks like an amazing place. I met a girl from Bermuda once. She was as close to a 10 as I have ever met. A real Elle McPherson level knockout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvycdvwkcDA
Hoho, as a holdover from the flag debate, NZ's flag has been made to look like Australia's, with white stars. If only we could have seen the Hypnosis flying proudly.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:13 pm 
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That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:05 pm 
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True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Thanks. It has become a rich man's willy waving contest.

I cannot drag myself away from the new ways of exploiting the use of the wind.

When they allow enormously powered propellers at the back, I shall not be happy.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:40 pm 
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True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Despite the apperance, it wasn't as big a choke as you think. Jimmy Spithill is/was a superior to Dean Barker. Oracle were on the verge of abandoning a foiling cat but after observing TNZ's cat when they were testing made some changes and stuck with the concept. That concept was developed right through and up until the AC. Remember the lay day that they took and then came out the next day with a vastly faster boat? Well, that was down to modifications they were constantly making and learning how to sail the foiling cat. They just pulled a massive rabbit out of a hat. But of course there are other factors to consider like wind and water conditions - different boats are set up for different conditions, it's a risk they take in design. And crew. Oracle definitely had a better skipper.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:39 pm 
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The Native wrote:
True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Despite the apperance, it wasn't as big a choke as you think. Jimmy Spithill is/was a superior to Dean Barker. Oracle were on the verge of abandoning a foiling cat but after observing TNZ's cat when they were testing made some changes and stuck with the concept. That concept was developed right through and up until the AC. Remember the lay day that they took and then came out the next day with a vastly faster boat? Well, that was down to modifications they were constantly making and learning how to sail the foiling cat. They just pulled a massive rabbit out of a hat. But of course there are other factors to consider like wind and water conditions - different boats are set up for different conditions, it's a risk they take in design. And crew. Oracle definitely had a better skipper.


Yep.

I'd like to see BAR make the final. Britain will go nuts for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:48 pm 
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The Native wrote:
True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Despite the apperance, it wasn't as big a choke as you think. Jimmy Spithill is/was a superior to Dean Barker. Oracle were on the verge of abandoning a foiling cat but after observing TNZ's cat when they were testing made some changes and stuck with the concept. That concept was developed right through and up until the AC. Remember the lay day that they took and then came out the next day with a vastly faster boat? Well, that was down to modifications they were constantly making and learning how to sail the foiling cat. They just pulled a massive rabbit out of a hat. But of course there are other factors to consider like wind and water conditions - different boats are set up for different conditions, it's a risk they take in design. And crew. Oracle definitely had a better skipper.


God how annoying was that race where we were miles ahead and were on verge of taking the whole cup, but for that pissing race abandoned for being too long rule. We were literally on final stretch.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
The Native wrote:
True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Despite the apperance, it wasn't as big a choke as you think. Jimmy Spithill is/was a superior to Dean Barker. Oracle were on the verge of abandoning a foiling cat but after observing TNZ's cat when they were testing made some changes and stuck with the concept. That concept was developed right through and up until the AC. Remember the lay day that they took and then came out the next day with a vastly faster boat? Well, that was down to modifications they were constantly making and learning how to sail the foiling cat. They just pulled a massive rabbit out of a hat. But of course there are other factors to consider like wind and water conditions - different boats are set up for different conditions, it's a risk they take in design. And crew. Oracle definitely had a better skipper.


Yep.

I'd like to see BAR make the final. Britain will go nuts for it.

Too right. Big tick.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:02 am 
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ImageMore here http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas-Cup---Images-of-Emirates-Team-NZ-flypast-Devonport/152607


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
The Native wrote:
True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Despite the apperance, it wasn't as big a choke as you think. Jimmy Spithill is/was a superior to Dean Barker. Oracle were on the verge of abandoning a foiling cat but after observing TNZ's cat when they were testing made some changes and stuck with the concept. That concept was developed right through and up until the AC. Remember the lay day that they took and then came out the next day with a vastly faster boat? Well, that was down to modifications they were constantly making and learning how to sail the foiling cat. They just pulled a massive rabbit out of a hat. But of course there are other factors to consider like wind and water conditions - different boats are set up for different conditions, it's a risk they take in design. And crew. Oracle definitely had a better skipper.


Yep.

I'd like to see BAR make the final. Britain will go nuts for it.


Yes, they would go nuts for poster boy ainslie!

I get the feeling that Team NZ are not going to be as competitive this time round.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Yourmother wrote:
The Native wrote:
True Blue wrote:
That last America's Cup was such an epic choke fest (on and off the water) that I have no interest in this one. You're welcome.

Despite the apperance, it wasn't as big a choke as you think. Jimmy Spithill is/was a superior to Dean Barker. Oracle were on the verge of abandoning a foiling cat but after observing TNZ's cat when they were testing made some changes and stuck with the concept. That concept was developed right through and up until the AC. Remember the lay day that they took and then came out the next day with a vastly faster boat? Well, that was down to modifications they were constantly making and learning how to sail the foiling cat. They just pulled a massive rabbit out of a hat. But of course there are other factors to consider like wind and water conditions - different boats are set up for different conditions, it's a risk they take in design. And crew. Oracle definitely had a better skipper.


God how annoying was that race where we were miles ahead and were on verge of taking the whole cup, but for that pissing race abandoned for being too long rule. We were literally on final stretch.


Especially orcacles pissing around before the first turn. Pinning is down basically.

They were ridiculously short times for the race plus the wind range due to safety meant oracle bought another week basically and they finally got their boat right.

The thing about these boats is it's really about speed only, the nuances of match race sailing seem to redundant


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Yeah, it's F1 on water now.

Would prefer it return to mono hulls.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Team New Zealand must be giving the other syndicates - and Oracle especially - the shits if you.read between the lines in this article - http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Americas- ... wis/152587


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
So trying to understand this. If you have four grinders / pedallers? and one driver, then what does the sixth person do? Trimmer or tactician?


Do they do PED testing in sailing?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:44 pm 
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The Native wrote:
Yeah, it's F1 on water now.

Would prefer it return to mono hulls.

Don't get me started!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Hello! Simon van Velthooven, who is a cyclist, has joined the team.

This is either interesting or nuts.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:21 pm 
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What cave have you been in?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/89504830/team-new-zealands-cycling-star-simon-van-velthooven-a-yachtie-at-heart


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:43 pm 
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usermame wrote:


Yeah, he used to have a poster of KZ7 on his bedroom wall


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:26 pm 
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booze wrote:
usermame wrote:


Yeah, he used to have a poster of KZ7 on his bedroom wall

I try to learn what's going on. Don't spend all day on sailing sites.

Got enough trouble with other issues.

Paradiddles.

Sheesh.


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