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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:31 pm 
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PornDog wrote:
tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
Yeah the Yank team talk is even dafter than the Saffa stuff. f**k me though have they not learned anything from the shambles that is SuperDuper rugby - stop f**k tinkering with the tournament. Especially in nonsensical ways!


I may be in the minority but I hate this desire to grow the game in new markets. There are plenty of places rugby is popular but not enough is being done to improve there. It's in the national sport in Wales ffs and there's no real club support.

I'd prefer it to remain a semi-niche sport if it means it doesn't get diluted.


I'm not against growing the game in the slightest, I just don't think bastardizing existing comps is the best (or even a good) way of going about that. Plus, growing the game is not the motivation for these moves, its because the twats running the discussions believe there's revenues to be exploited. What they don't seem to realise is the relationship between their existing revenues and treating the people that provide them with contempt.

Paddyor, while recognizing that Dragons are in a fair bit of trouble, there's no guarantee that these sort of moves will end up creating increased revenues (in fact there is significant risk they will do the opposite as people lose interest in a bastardised league - see Super Rugby. Hell if the Welsh on here are to be believed they've f**k all interest in it as it is [despite confusingly simultaneously paying millions for TV rights]).


Yes, all this talk of increasing revenue smacks of desperation and dilution. Improving the game by better coaching, developing players, better scheduling and better arenas (expensive but would love a retractable roof at all grounds) will go a long way. I also thinking building the rugby brand better will help. The skill set in the SH is way better than us, but we should be able to match/better it.
- documentaries such as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pzy4k )
- more instructive TV programs to learn what is happening about the game - e.g. this is how you maul, backline moves, defensive setups, kicking, training, nutrition etc - link it up with the WRU and sync it so that schools emulate it
- more cameras, even a drone to get closer to the action
- love the way the NFL packages big games and retains them for historic purposes that people can tap into (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-ame ... e-Ice-Bowl)


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:35 pm 
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tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
Yeah the Yank team talk is even dafter than the Saffa stuff. f**k me though have they not learned anything from the shambles that is SuperDuper rugby - stop f**k tinkering with the tournament. Especially in nonsensical ways!


I may be in the minority but I hate this desire to grow the game in new markets. There are plenty of places rugby is popular but not enough is being done to improve there. It's in the national sport in Wales ffs and there's no real club support.

I'd prefer it to remain a semi-niche sport if it means it doesn't get diluted.


I'm not against growing the game in the slightest, I just don't think bastardizing existing comps is the best (or even a good) way of going about that. Plus, growing the game is not the motivation for these moves, its because the twats running the discussions believe there's revenues to be exploited. What they don't seem to realise is the relationship between their existing revenues and treating the people that provide them with contempt.

Paddyor, while recognizing that Dragons are in a fair bit of trouble, there's no guarantee that these sort of moves will end up creating increased revenues (in fact there is significant risk they will do the opposite as people lose interest in a bastardised league - see Super Rugby. Hell if the Welsh on here are to be believed they've f**k all interest in it as it is [despite confusingly simultaneously paying millions for TV rights]).


What I meant was trying to penetrate new markets where rugby is relatively non-existant. I agree ruining competitions is the worst way to do it.

I think if you improve the product, people will watch it. Imo, the best way to improve it is to reduce the number of games thus making each match matter more.


I would certainly agree with that in principal, however one of the arguments against that is that there would be fewer opportunities for fringe players to feature and thus develop. 10 team league with an Anglo Welsh style reserve comp could be one idea (giving the B&I cup places to the clubs where they always should have been tbf).

While I wouldn't be too quick to draw correlations, there's no doubt that the Italian teams have not improved since they've been in the League. There was always that argument that Munster's original success was born from the success of the Munster clubs in the AIL - a winning mentality carries forward and all that. Surely a consistently losing mentality cannot be helping Italian rugby. Would they not be better off returning to the Super 10 (or Super 8, applying the same principals of less is more), where the likes of Treviso and Calvisano et al can develop that winning culture and then progress from there? Maybe then bring in a provincial aspect on top of that for European involvement? I certainly don't think the Italian teams in ProD2 is a starter.

I'm just spit balling here, but I think its a hell of a lot more constructive than "Lets bring in American franchises! Yay!"


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:39 pm 
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PornDog wrote:
tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
Yeah the Yank team talk is even dafter than the Saffa stuff. f**k me though have they not learned anything from the shambles that is SuperDuper rugby - stop f**k tinkering with the tournament. Especially in nonsensical ways!


I may be in the minority but I hate this desire to grow the game in new markets. There are plenty of places rugby is popular but not enough is being done to improve there. It's in the national sport in Wales ffs and there's no real club support.

I'd prefer it to remain a semi-niche sport if it means it doesn't get diluted.


I'm not against growing the game in the slightest, I just don't think bastardizing existing comps is the best (or even a good) way of going about that. Plus, growing the game is not the motivation for these moves, its because the twats running the discussions believe there's revenues to be exploited. What they don't seem to realise is the relationship between their existing revenues and treating the people that provide them with contempt.

Paddyor, while recognizing that Dragons are in a fair bit of trouble, there's no guarantee that these sort of moves will end up creating increased revenues (in fact there is significant risk they will do the opposite as people lose interest in a bastardised league - see Super Rugby. Hell if the Welsh on here are to be believed they've f**k all interest in it as it is [despite confusingly simultaneously paying millions for TV rights]).


What I meant was trying to penetrate new markets where rugby is relatively non-existant. I agree ruining competitions is the worst way to do it.

I think if you improve the product, people will watch it. Imo, the best way to improve it is to reduce the number of games thus making each match matter more.


I would certainly agree with that in principal, however one of the arguments against that is that there would be fewer opportunities for fringe players to feature and thus develop. 10 team league with an Anglo Welsh style reserve comp could be one idea (giving the B&I cup places to the clubs where they always should have been tbf).

While I wouldn't be too quick to draw correlations, there's no doubt that the Italian teams have not improved since they've been in the League. There was always that argument that Munster's original success was born from the success of the Munster clubs in the AIL - a winning mentality carries forward and all that. Surely a consistently losing mentality cannot be helping Italian rugby. Would they not be better off returning to the Super 10 (or Super 8, applying the same principals of less is more), where the likes of Treviso and Calvisano et al can develop that winning culture and then progress from there? Maybe then bring in a provincial aspect on top of that for European involvement? I certainly don't think the Italian teams in ProD2 is a starter.

I'm just spit balling here, but I think its a hell of a lot more constructive than "Lets bring in American franchises! Yay!"


The Italians have not improved and need to be given an ultimatum, but to be fair they let go of a number of players a season or two ago when the Pro12 faced grave uncertainty. I'd like them to be involved, just get a whole lot better.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:40 pm 
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LandOTurk wrote:
PornDog wrote:
I'm not against growing the game in the slightest, I just don't think bastardizing existing comps is the best (or even a good) way of going about that. Plus, growing the game is not the motivation for these moves, its because the twats running the discussions believe there's revenues to be exploited. What they don't seem to realise is the relationship between their existing revenues and treating the people that provide them with contempt.

Paddyor, while recognizing that Dragons are in a fair bit of trouble, there's no guarantee that these sort of moves will end up creating increased revenues (in fact there is significant risk they will do the opposite as people lose interest in a bastardised league - see Super Rugby. Hell if the Welsh on here are to be believed they've f**k all interest in it as it is [despite confusingly simultaneously paying millions for TV rights]).


Yes, all this talk of increasing revenue smacks of desperation and dilution. Improving the game by better coaching, developing players, better scheduling and better arenas (expensive but would love a retractable roof at all grounds) will go a long way. I also thinking building the rugby brand better will help. The skill set in the SH is way better than us, but we should be able to match/better it.
- documentaries such as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pzy4k )
- more instructive TV programs to learn what is happening about the game - e.g. this is how you maul, backline moves, defensive setups, kicking, training, nutrition etc - link it up with the WRU and sync it so that schools emulate it
- more cameras, even a drone to get closer to the action
- love the way the NFL packages big games and retains them for historic purposes that people can tap into (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-ame ... e-Ice-Bowl)


:thumbup:

I think one thing that is badly needed is a country/station independent weekly roundup/highlights/magazine show (done well naturally). At the end of the day, If you don't watch them live, your only exposure to the teams from other countries in the league is generally the 3 min youtube clip (which is good in and of itself, just not sufficient). TG4 is great and everything, but they're not going to be showing any highlights of Glasgow v Scarlets any time soon.

Quote:
The Italians have not improved and need to be given an ultimatum, but to be fair they let go of a number of players a season or two ago when the Pro12 faced grave uncertainty. I'd like them to be involved, just get a whole lot better.


That's fair, and I'm not suggesting we boot them out immediately or anything (Zebre's on a run at the moment - who would have predicted that?), but there's food for thought there. I do think a 10 team league is an appealing size though.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:45 pm 
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PornDog wrote:
tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
Yeah the Yank team talk is even dafter than the Saffa stuff. f**k me though have they not learned anything from the shambles that is SuperDuper rugby - stop f**k tinkering with the tournament. Especially in nonsensical ways!


I may be in the minority but I hate this desire to grow the game in new markets. There are plenty of places rugby is popular but not enough is being done to improve there. It's in the national sport in Wales ffs and there's no real club support.

I'd prefer it to remain a semi-niche sport if it means it doesn't get diluted.


I'm not against growing the game in the slightest, I just don't think bastardizing existing comps is the best (or even a good) way of going about that. Plus, growing the game is not the motivation for these moves, its because the twats running the discussions believe there's revenues to be exploited. What they don't seem to realise is the relationship between their existing revenues and treating the people that provide them with contempt.

Paddyor, while recognizing that Dragons are in a fair bit of trouble, there's no guarantee that these sort of moves will end up creating increased revenues (in fact there is significant risk they will do the opposite as people lose interest in a bastardised league - see Super Rugby. Hell if the Welsh on here are to be believed they've f**k all interest in it as it is [despite confusingly simultaneously paying millions for TV rights]).

This isnt like the Super rugby over reach though . Well not as i see it, but it can be viewed that way. If the league loses 1 or 2 team's therell be a loss of revenue. E.g leinsters lease ties them into hosting 12 games a season at the RDS, wed lose one of the aviva games.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:57 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
PornDog wrote:
tiddle wrote:
PornDog wrote:
Yeah the Yank team talk is even dafter than the Saffa stuff. f**k me though have they not learned anything from the shambles that is SuperDuper rugby - stop f**k tinkering with the tournament. Especially in nonsensical ways!


I may be in the minority but I hate this desire to grow the game in new markets. There are plenty of places rugby is popular but not enough is being done to improve there. It's in the national sport in Wales ffs and there's no real club support.

I'd prefer it to remain a semi-niche sport if it means it doesn't get diluted.


I'm not against growing the game in the slightest, I just don't think bastardizing existing comps is the best (or even a good) way of going about that. Plus, growing the game is not the motivation for these moves, its because the twats running the discussions believe there's revenues to be exploited. What they don't seem to realise is the relationship between their existing revenues and treating the people that provide them with contempt.

Paddyor, while recognizing that Dragons are in a fair bit of trouble, there's no guarantee that these sort of moves will end up creating increased revenues (in fact there is significant risk they will do the opposite as people lose interest in a bastardised league - see Super Rugby. Hell if the Welsh on here are to be believed they've f**k all interest in it as it is [despite confusingly simultaneously paying millions for TV rights]).

This isnt like the Super rugby over reach though . Well not as i see it, but it can be viewed that way. If the league loses 1 or 2 team's therell be a loss of revenue. E.g leinsters lease ties them into hosting 12 games a season at the RDS, wed lose one of the aviva games.


Of course for Leinster that's true, but its also a very insular way of looking at the situation. Yes, losing the Aviva games (both for the League & NTHCSBH cup I understand) would be a big hit for Leinster (I'm sure something could be worked out either now or into the future), that doesn't mean that reducing the size of the league wont be good for the league. Less can most certainly be more. Higher intensity and relatively more important matches can absolutely result in greater revenues (stadium/tv/sponsors) than a more diluted product.

Don't just look to Super Rugby, but look at when the Tri-nations went to 3 games a year (with NZ-OZ playing 4 times), there was noticeable drop off in interest in both stadium and tv audiences, with the problem generating significant column inches in the SH back pages. I think we're in danger of seeing the same thing again up here with more and more teams going for a 4th Autumn international. Thankfully we're not playing the same teams multiple times in a year, but test against the big boys are much less of an event now because they're pretty much an annual occurrence. It looks like the new calendar will rebalance this a bit and the extra 2nd tier games are most welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:05 pm 
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LandOTurk wrote:
Yes, all this talk of increasing revenue smacks of desperation and dilution. Improving the game by better coaching, developing players, better scheduling and better arenas (expensive but would love a retractable roof at all grounds) will go a long way. I also thinking building the rugby brand better will help. The skill set in the SH is way better than us, but we should be able to match/better it.
- documentaries such as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pzy4k )
- more instructive TV programs to learn what is happening about the game - e.g. this is how you maul, backline moves, defensive setups, kicking, training, nutrition etc - link it up with the WRU and sync it so that schools emulate it
- more cameras, even a drone to get closer to the action
- love the way the NFL packages big games and retains them for historic purposes that people can tap into (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-ame ... e-Ice-Bowl)


I like a lot of the stuff you've suggested but will this increase revenue within Wales? Wales has the lowest average wage of anywhere in the UK and so money is limited for entertainment so it's going to make it harder to get those all important families through the gate.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:11 pm 
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bessantj wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
Yes, all this talk of increasing revenue smacks of desperation and dilution. Improving the game by better coaching, developing players, better scheduling and better arenas (expensive but would love a retractable roof at all grounds) will go a long way. I also thinking building the rugby brand better will help. The skill set in the SH is way better than us, but we should be able to match/better it.
- documentaries such as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pzy4k )
- more instructive TV programs to learn what is happening about the game - e.g. this is how you maul, backline moves, defensive setups, kicking, training, nutrition etc - link it up with the WRU and sync it so that schools emulate it
- more cameras, even a drone to get closer to the action
- love the way the NFL packages big games and retains them for historic purposes that people can tap into (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-ame ... e-Ice-Bowl)


I like a lot of the stuff you've suggested but will this increase revenue within Wales? Wales has the lowest average wage of anywhere in the UK and so money is limited for entertainment so it's going to make it harder to get those all important families through the gate.

What do Swansea and Cardiff FCs charge for soccer attendees compared to what Ospreys and Blues charge ?


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:22 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
What do Swansea and Cardiff FCs charge for soccer attendees compared to what Ospreys and Blues charge ?


You bastard for making me look this up! Looking at their sites:

Swansea FC - £35
Ospreys - £20

Cardiff FC - £18
Blues - £24


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:23 pm 
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bessantj wrote:
LandOTurk wrote:
Yes, all this talk of increasing revenue smacks of desperation and dilution. Improving the game by better coaching, developing players, better scheduling and better arenas (expensive but would love a retractable roof at all grounds) will go a long way. I also thinking building the rugby brand better will help. The skill set in the SH is way better than us, but we should be able to match/better it.
- documentaries such as this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03pzy4k )
- more instructive TV programs to learn what is happening about the game - e.g. this is how you maul, backline moves, defensive setups, kicking, training, nutrition etc - link it up with the WRU and sync it so that schools emulate it
- more cameras, even a drone to get closer to the action
- love the way the NFL packages big games and retains them for historic purposes that people can tap into (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-ame ... e-Ice-Bowl)


I like a lot of the stuff you've suggested but will this increase revenue within Wales? Wales has the lowest average wage of anywhere in the UK and so money is limited for entertainment so it's going to make it harder to get those all important families through the gate.


I don't think those who go already will increase spending, but I think we could double the amount who do go by pulling them in through saturation marketing. They become hooked on it.

I also believe the girls game could be developed way more - another revenue stream - get the ladies down y parc.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 pm 
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LandOTurk wrote:
I don't think those who go already will increase spending, but I think we could double the amount who do go by pulling them in through saturation marketing. They become hooked on it.

I also believe the girls game could be developed way more - another revenue stream - get the ladies down y parc.


Yeah maybe getting more girls interested could help get more families through the gate.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:31 pm 
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So Kings and Cheatahs to the Pro 14 in 2018/19?


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:39 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
So Kings and Cheatahs to the Pro 14 in 2018/19?


Hopefully not. Would really put me off the league.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:08 pm 
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bessantj wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
What do Swansea and Cardiff FCs charge for soccer attendees compared to what Ospreys and Blues charge ?


You bastard for making me look this up! Looking at their sites:

Swansea FC - £35
Ospreys - £20

Cardiff FC - £18
Blues - £24

That's interesting. It certainly looks as if there is some margin for increasing prices. TBH I thought Swansea FC would be higher. It must be one of the cheapest tickets in the Premier League ?


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:25 pm 
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LandOTurk wrote:
Zakar wrote:
So Kings and Cheatahs to the Pro 14 in 2018/19?


Hopefully not. Would really put me off the league.

They'd be an upgrade on Zebre & Dragons this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:32 pm 
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I do think there is space to knock a Welsh and an Italian team. Possibly replace them with a Georgian version of the Jaguares and a Heidelberg based team of Germans, Dutch, mercs.


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 Post subject: Re: Pro12 Future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:15 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
bessantj wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
What do Swansea and Cardiff FCs charge for soccer attendees compared to what Ospreys and Blues charge ?


You bastard for making me look this up! Looking at their sites:

Swansea FC - £35
Ospreys - £20

Cardiff FC - £18
Blues - £24

That's interesting. It certainly looks as if there is some margin for increasing prices. TBH I thought Swansea FC would be higher. It must be one of the cheapest tickets in the Premier League ?


I guess if you're often at the wrong end of the table your prices tend to get cheaper. I remember watching Swansea around 15 years ago and the ticket price was £4.


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