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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 10:06 am 
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Interesting interview at http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-web ... lonso.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:57 am 
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Honda spending its first ‘tokens’ of 2015 before Canada

Full report - F1 engine ‘tokens’ spent for Canadian GP: http://www.thisisf1.com/2015/06/02/f1-e ... nadian-gp/

Any positive results?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:14 am 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
madchild wrote:
First I want to say that I am a fan of Fernando, but his enthusiasm for Honda will wane if they continue to struggle. He may not regret leaving Ferrari right now, but if McLaren's struggles continue into next season, I believe his regrets will turn elsewhere.

Why would he regret leaving? I don't think even Fernando has the ability to drag that Ferrari to race wins (aside from in Malaysia) given how excellent the Mercedes are.

Until he has a car that will let him compete with Hamilton, he won't mind.

Hamilton's success make Alonso look brilliant considering how he outdrove Hamilton and Vettel in inferior machinery 2010-2013. I have no doubt in my mind he would be a 7-time world champion if he had moved to Red Bull in 2008 or 2009.

I believe so to but Alonso chose to put himself in the wrong cars, he left McLaren, he turned down Red Bull, he also turned down Honda which became Brawn and then Mercedes although he probably would have left once Honda pulled out.

Maybe it's a bit like stocks and shares you make the most money if you can spot a winner before it becomes a winner, lose the most money if you buy something that has done well but has now peaked and is about to decline. Hamilton picked a good stock at Mercedes, maybe Vettel has done the same at Ferrari given their improvement thus far.

It's much too early to tell with Alonso at McLaren, maybe he's bought big into a high risk stock which will make him a fortune or seriously bomb and cost him a serious amount of money?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
madchild wrote:
First I want to say that I am a fan of Fernando, but his enthusiasm for Honda will wane if they continue to struggle. He may not regret leaving Ferrari right now, but if McLaren's struggles continue into next season, I believe his regrets will turn elsewhere.

Why would he regret leaving? I don't think even Fernando has the ability to drag that Ferrari to race wins (aside from in Malaysia) given how excellent the Mercedes are.

Until he has a car that will let him compete with Hamilton, he won't mind.

Hamilton's success make Alonso look brilliant considering how he outdrove Hamilton and Vettel in inferior machinery 2010-2013. I have no doubt in my mind he would be a 7-time world champion if he had moved to Red Bull in 2008 or 2009.

I believe so to but Alonso chose to put himself in the wrong cars, he left McLaren, he turned down Red Bull, he also turned down Honda which became Brawn and then Mercedes although he probably would have left once Honda pulled out.

Maybe it's a bit like stocks and shares you make the most money if you can spot a winner before it becomes a winner, lose the most money if you buy something that has done well but has now peaked and is about to decline. Hamilton picked a good stock at Mercedes, maybe Vettel has done the same at Ferrari given their improvement thus far.

It's much too early to tell with Alonso at McLaren, maybe he's bought big into a high risk stock which will make him a fortune or seriously bomb and cost him a serious amount of money?


I think Fernando has some seriously bad timing in getting seats. Seb and Lewis seemed to be charmed.

Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull and certainly not go to Brawn after Honda pulled out.

Lewis read the writing and moved from what was the Mercedes works team to the actual Mercedes works team and thereby passed the teething pains with regards to getting Honda back into F1.

Sometimes you are charmed, but unfortunately most drivers in F1 will be left holding the short end of the stick when it comes to getting top tier rides.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
madchild wrote:
First I want to say that I am a fan of Fernando, but his enthusiasm for Honda will wane if they continue to struggle. He may not regret leaving Ferrari right now, but if McLaren's struggles continue into next season, I believe his regrets will turn elsewhere.

Why would he regret leaving? I don't think even Fernando has the ability to drag that Ferrari to race wins (aside from in Malaysia) given how excellent the Mercedes are.

Until he has a car that will let him compete with Hamilton, he won't mind.

Hamilton's success make Alonso look brilliant considering how he outdrove Hamilton and Vettel in inferior machinery 2010-2013. I have no doubt in my mind he would be a 7-time world champion if he had moved to Red Bull in 2008 or 2009.

I believe so to but Alonso chose to put himself in the wrong cars, he left McLaren, he turned down Red Bull, he also turned down Honda which became Brawn and then Mercedes although he probably would have left once Honda pulled out.

Maybe it's a bit like stocks and shares you make the most money if you can spot a winner before it becomes a winner, lose the most money if you buy something that has done well but has now peaked and is about to decline. Hamilton picked a good stock at Mercedes, maybe Vettel has done the same at Ferrari given their improvement thus far.

It's much too early to tell with Alonso at McLaren, maybe he's bought big into a high risk stock which will make him a fortune or seriously bomb and cost him a serious amount of money?

That's a very fair assessment. I feel the way things went in 2007 was the first bad domino in a long line. He's gotta live with that and so do his fans. I can take heart, and a tremendous amount of joy, in watching him perform as brilliantly as he has but at the end of the day that tantalizing 3rd title would have trumped all of that. I'm sure the man himself feels the same.

As I said in another Fernando-related thread, one can still hope... we're used to it by now!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:10 am 
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HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull


No? I thought Adrian Newey + money was a guarantee for a rocket ship? :)

edit: for the record, I somewhat agree. You can never be sure if a team will provide a great car. Still, choosing Red Bull over Renault for 2008 wouldn't have been that ridiculous and maybe he would have held on instead of jumping to Ferrari for 2010.

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Last edited by mds on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:13 am 
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mds wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull


No? I thought Adrian Newey + money was a guarantee for a rocket ship? :)

The sarcasm is strong in this one

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:36 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
madchild wrote:
First I want to say that I am a fan of Fernando, but his enthusiasm for Honda will wane if they continue to struggle. He may not regret leaving Ferrari right now, but if McLaren's struggles continue into next season, I believe his regrets will turn elsewhere.

Why would he regret leaving? I don't think even Fernando has the ability to drag that Ferrari to race wins (aside from in Malaysia) given how excellent the Mercedes are.

Until he has a car that will let him compete with Hamilton, he won't mind.

Hamilton's success make Alonso look brilliant considering how he outdrove Hamilton and Vettel in inferior machinery 2010-2013. I have no doubt in my mind he would be a 7-time world champion if he had moved to Red Bull in 2008 or 2009.

I believe so to but Alonso chose to put himself in the wrong cars, he left McLaren, he turned down Red Bull, he also turned down Honda which became Brawn and then Mercedes although he probably would have left once Honda pulled out.

Maybe it's a bit like stocks and shares you make the most money if you can spot a winner before it becomes a winner, lose the most money if you buy something that has done well but has now peaked and is about to decline. Hamilton picked a good stock at Mercedes, maybe Vettel has done the same at Ferrari given their improvement thus far.

It's much too early to tell with Alonso at McLaren, maybe he's bought big into a high risk stock which will make him a fortune or seriously bomb and cost him a serious amount of money?

That's a very fair assessment. I feel the way things went in 2007 was the first bad domino in a long line. He's gotta live with that and so do his fans. I can take heart, and a tremendous amount of joy, in watching him perform as brilliantly as he has but at the end of the day that tantalizing 3rd title would have trumped all of that. I'm sure the man himself feels the same.

As I said in another Fernando-related thread, one can still hope... we're used to it by now!

Well it can only be for the good of F1 for McLaren Honda to succeed and the likes of Alonso and Button certainly deserve a front running car.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull


No? I thought Adrian Newey + money was a guarantee for a rocket ship? :)

edit: for the record, I somewhat agree. You can never be sure if a team will provide a great car. Still, choosing Red Bull over Renault for 2008 wouldn't have been that ridiculous and maybe he would have held on instead of jumping to Ferrari for 2010.

I think that one thing that can be said is that he had the opportunities to be in the right teams, you can feel sorry for drivers who never get the opportunity to even make the wrong choice, e.g. the Hulk.

Despite it being said that the Ferrari improvements mean nothing because they still won't beat Mercedes this year, would Alonso fans rather see Alonso in the Ferrari this year or the McLaren?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull


No? I thought Adrian Newey + money was a guarantee for a rocket ship? :)

edit: for the record, I somewhat agree. You can never be sure if a team will provide a great car. Still, choosing Red Bull over Renault for 2008 wouldn't have been that ridiculous and maybe he would have held on instead of jumping to Ferrari for 2010.

I think that one thing that can be said is that he had the opportunities to be in the right teams, you can feel sorry for drivers who never get the opportunity to even make the wrong choice, e.g. the Hulk.

Despite it being said that the Ferrari improvements mean nothing because they still won't beat Mercedes this year, would Alonso fans rather see Alonso in the Ferrari this year or the McLaren?


I'm not sure you can blame a driver for making the wrong choice though, when in truth it is down to pure luck. You say you feel more sorry for a driver who never gets the opportunity like Hulkenberg, but I'd say that it is arguable you should feel more sorry for a driver who's talent is so obvious that every single team on the grid should be falling over themselves to get him, but circumstances and luck work against him to put him in the wrong cars at the wrong time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull


No? I thought Adrian Newey + money was a guarantee for a rocket ship? :)

edit: for the record, I somewhat agree. You can never be sure if a team will provide a great car. Still, choosing Red Bull over Renault for 2008 wouldn't have been that ridiculous and maybe he would have held on instead of jumping to Ferrari for 2010.

I think that one thing that can be said is that he had the opportunities to be in the right teams, you can feel sorry for drivers who never get the opportunity to even make the wrong choice, e.g. the Hulk.

Despite it being said that the Ferrari improvements mean nothing because they still won't beat Mercedes this year, would Alonso fans rather see Alonso in the Ferrari this year or the McLaren?



I agree that Fernando definitely had the opportunities, but sorting through all that's going on wasn't the easy decisions that Lewis and Seb had.

Also at the time Fernando was to have had the opportunity to join Red Bull they were the party team. They were most definitely the outwardly win at all costs team they are now..............success tends to breed that high expectations and Red Bull didn't have it back then.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:39 am 
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HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
I agree that Fernando definitely had the opportunities, but sorting through all that's going on wasn't the easy decisions that Lewis and Seb had.


Seb had no choices whatsoever other than quitting the sport. He went from Friday driver to STRF and that was his only option. He had to prove himself in a junior team to be promoted to the senior team amid an ever changing group of drivers that were given a very small window to make an impact. So it was not any decision at all, rather take it or leave it. Furthermore, Macca has publicly stated that they tried to get Vettel for 2008 (with Vettel declaring he'd drive for free), but Red Bull refused and so Seb's career was completely out of his hands.

I don't know if Hamilton had other options - his GP2 was impressive. But he was able to move right into a top car, so again, not really an option - who would say no? Then of course his options opened up and he chose to move to Mercedes, but that was not an "easy decision". It was at the point of a major regulation change and Lewis was taking his chances with the Merc Hybrid.

Fernando also had hard choices, but no more difficult than his rivals for sure.

Quote:
Also at the time Fernando was to have had the opportunity to join Red Bull they were the party team. They were most definitely the outwardly win at all costs team they are now..............success tends to breed that high expectations and Red Bull didn't have it back then.


They remained the party team clear through earning all of their titles - the music was blasting from 1 garage at every GP I attended - Red Bull. But they made it clear they were serious when they hired Newey and had him put together the infrastructure. DC and Webber didn't join up to party... I think Fernando just believed that even with Newey it would take a long time before they were able to produce a title challenger and that he had a far better chance with Renault, who had been champions the year prior.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Realistically speaking there was no reason for Fernando to go to Red Bull


No? I thought Adrian Newey + money was a guarantee for a rocket ship? :)

edit: for the record, I somewhat agree. You can never be sure if a team will provide a great car. Still, choosing Red Bull over Renault for 2008 wouldn't have been that ridiculous and maybe he would have held on instead of jumping to Ferrari for 2010.

I think that one thing that can be said is that he had the opportunities to be in the right teams, you can feel sorry for drivers who never get the opportunity to even make the wrong choice, e.g. the Hulk.

Despite it being said that the Ferrari improvements mean nothing because they still won't beat Mercedes this year, would Alonso fans rather see Alonso in the Ferrari this year or the McLaren?


In a Ferrari.

But then again, I'm also a Ferrari fan :D :D And rate him higher than both the current drivers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:12 am 
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To be fair bourbon19, I do think Alonso has been in a tougher decision than Vettel when it came to deciding where to drive. It is as you say: prior to going to Ferrari, he had to make no decisions at all. That one-off drive in a BMW was a no-brainer, getting a shot at F1 in an STR was a no-brainer, then being promoted to RBR was a no-brainer. And it turned out very well for him.

I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?) and that he maybe he wouldn't have signed for Ferrari during 2008, and 2009 could have seen him stay at RBR to win a few titles. But still, those were the kind of dilemma's Vettel never really faced up until having to decide whether to leave RBR or not.
And whatever choice Vettel now makes, it's all easier: he has those 4 WDC's whatever happens for the rest of his career. He gets to drive for his dream team, and I'm very sure he'll want to get at least one more title there, it doesn't really make or break his career (unless he takes beatings from team mates for years).

As for Hamilton, well, one could say he's made wrong decisions as well. Staying at McLaren was a decision and apart from a good number of race wins, it was rather unsuccessful after 2008. Mercedes was a bold move but it was a similar move Alonso could have made back in 2008, with the promise of a team in full build-up and with a lot of cash and very talented people being recruited. Hamilton handled that very well.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:20 pm 
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mds wrote:

I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)



He went to Renault for only one year, the deal with Ferrari was done for him to drive in 2009, but Ferrari couldn't get rid of Kimi and he stayed in Renault another year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:24 pm 
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Robot wrote:
mds wrote:

I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)



He went to Renault for only one year, the deal with Ferrari was done for him to drive in 2009, but Ferrari couldn't get rid of Kimi and he stayed in Renault another year.


Either way he would have been at Red Bull for 2009, possibly (probably?) won his third WDC, and maybe even stuck around.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
To be fair bourbon19, I do think Alonso has been in a tougher decision than Vettel when it came to deciding where to drive. It is as you say: prior to going to Ferrari, he had to make no decisions at all. That one-off drive in a BMW was a no-brainer, getting a shot at F1 in an STR was a no-brainer, then being promoted to RBR was a no-brainer. And it turned out very well for him.

I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?) and that he maybe he wouldn't have signed for Ferrari during 2008, and 2009 could have seen him stay at RBR to win a few titles. But still, those were the kind of dilemma's Vettel never really faced up until having to decide whether to leave RBR or not.
And whatever choice Vettel now makes, it's all easier: he has those 4 WDC's whatever happens for the rest of his career. He gets to drive for his dream team, and I'm very sure he'll want to get at least one more title there, it doesn't really make or break his career (unless he takes beatings from team mates for years).

As for Hamilton, well, one could say he's made wrong decisions as well. Staying at McLaren was a decision and apart from a good number of race wins, it was rather unsuccessful after 2008. Mercedes was a bold move but it was a similar move Alonso could have made back in 2008, with the promise of a team in full build-up and with a lot of cash and very talented people being recruited. Hamilton handled that very well.


Granted, having to make a decision is tougher than not having to make a decision at all. My only point was that having a complete lack of power and control over your career is not easier than having the power to make a tough choice about your career - it is just different.

I would definitely agree that Alonso's choices have been tough and he's had quite a bit of bad luck in that regard. But his latest decision doesn't yet fall into that category because they knew it would take time before they were competitive. Maybe not quite so long, but I am still positive they will turn it around.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:46 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
I agree that Fernando definitely had the opportunities, but sorting through all that's going on wasn't the easy decisions that Lewis and Seb had.


Seb had no choices whatsoever other than quitting the sport. He went from Friday driver to STRF and that was his only option. He had to prove himself in a junior team to be promoted to the senior team amid an ever changing group of drivers that were given a very small window to make an impact. So it was not any decision at all, rather take it or leave it. Furthermore, Macca has publicly stated that they tried to get Vettel for 2008 (with Vettel declaring he'd drive for free), but Red Bull refused and so Seb's career was completely out of his hands.

I don't know if Hamilton had other options - his GP2 was impressive. But he was able to move right into a top car, so again, not really an option - who would say no? Then of course his options opened up and he chose to move to Mercedes, but that was not an "easy decision". It was at the point of a major regulation change and Lewis was taking his chances with the Merc Hybrid.

Fernando also had hard choices, but no more difficult than his rivals for sure.

Quote:
Also at the time Fernando was to have had the opportunity to join Red Bull they were the party team. They were most definitely the outwardly win at all costs team they are now..............success tends to breed that high expectations and Red Bull didn't have it back then.


They remained the party team clear through earning all of their titles - the music was blasting from 1 garage at every GP I attended - Red Bull. But they made it clear they were serious when they hired Newey and had him put together the infrastructure. DC and Webber didn't join up to party... I think Fernando just believed that even with Newey it would take a long time before they were able to produce a title challenger and that he had a far better chance with Renault, who had been champions the year prior.




By Lewis and Seb having decisions I mean both drivers basically had their choice of where they wanted to drive after their times in McLaren and Red Bull/STR.

If you are talking about coming into the sport then I'd say Lewis still had a better choice being a McLaren/Mercedes driver since he was a kid and had a great outing in GP2 (2006 Champion). Both incumbent drivers coming in as well as Fernando. Pretty good situation to learn from a 2 time WDC. Everyone thought so except Lewis, we know this story.

Seb was Helmut Marko's boy for a long time as well and believed in him enough to place him in other teams. Seb was a Red Bull junior driver just like Daniel and just like Daniel was placed in a team to learn F1 (Seb in Sauber and Daniel in HRT.............yeah don't forget that Daniel was in HRT before STR). It's just that Seb was very opportunistic with his times in both Sauber (youngest to score points - Canada due to Kubica's shunt) and first win for STR/Red Bull (at STR)..........so saying he had no choice is a bit wonky.


With regards to DC.........the writing was on the wall, no ride at McLaren, he was getting bumped by JPM & Kimi. Mark...........where was he going? Nowhere so it behooved him to stay at Jaguar and the change to Red Bull with an unproven Horner, but with Newey and a lot of financial backing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:17 pm 
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I feel really bad for Alonso. Not only did Kimi ruin Alonso's race, but he also messed up his Silverstone race, as he'll have to take another penalty because of the damaged engine. The rules should be penalising Kimi for his countless mistakes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:22 pm 
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jrwb6e wrote:
I feel really bad for Alonso. Not only did Kimi ruin Alonso's race, but he also messed up his Silverstone race, as he'll have to take another penalty because of the damaged engine. The rules should be penalising Kimi for his countless mistakes.

I agree it's harsh on Alonso, but it's strange the rules don't allow for accident damage. That's hardly a reliability issue


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:22 pm 
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HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
I agree that Fernando definitely had the opportunities, but sorting through all that's going on wasn't the easy decisions that Lewis and Seb had.


Seb had no choices whatsoever other than quitting the sport. He went from Friday driver to STRF and that was his only option. He had to prove himself in a junior team to be promoted to the senior team amid an ever changing group of drivers that were given a very small window to make an impact. So it was not any decision at all, rather take it or leave it. Furthermore, Macca has publicly stated that they tried to get Vettel for 2008 (with Vettel declaring he'd drive for free), but Red Bull refused and so Seb's career was completely out of his hands.

I don't know if Hamilton had other options - his GP2 was impressive. But he was able to move right into a top car, so again, not really an option - who would say no? Then of course his options opened up and he chose to move to Mercedes, but that was not an "easy decision". It was at the point of a major regulation change and Lewis was taking his chances with the Merc Hybrid.

Fernando also had hard choices, but no more difficult than his rivals for sure.

Quote:
Also at the time Fernando was to have had the opportunity to join Red Bull they were the party team. They were most definitely the outwardly win at all costs team they are now..............success tends to breed that high expectations and Red Bull didn't have it back then.


They remained the party team clear through earning all of their titles - the music was blasting from 1 garage at every GP I attended - Red Bull. But they made it clear they were serious when they hired Newey and had him put together the infrastructure. DC and Webber didn't join up to party... I think Fernando just believed that even with Newey it would take a long time before they were able to produce a title challenger and that he had a far better chance with Renault, who had been champions the year prior.




By Lewis and Seb having decisions I mean both drivers basically had their choice of where they wanted to drive after their times in McLaren and Red Bull/STR.

If you are talking about coming into the sport then I'd say Lewis still had a better choice being a McLaren/Mercedes driver since he was a kid and had a great outing in GP2 (2006 Champion). Both incumbent drivers coming in as well as Fernando. Pretty good situation to learn from a 2 time WDC. Everyone thought so except Lewis, we know this story.

Seb was Helmut Marko's boy for a long time as well and believed in him enough to place him in other teams. Seb was a Red Bull junior driver just like Daniel and just like Daniel was placed in a team to learn F1 (Seb in Sauber and Daniel in HRT.............yeah don't forget that Daniel was in HRT before STR). It's just that Seb was very opportunistic with his times in both Sauber (youngest to score points - Canada due to Kubica's shunt) and first win for STR/Red Bull (at STR)..........so saying he had no choice is a bit wonky.


Those were very different arrangements. Seb was invited by BMW Sauber to be a test driver and it was approved by Red Bull (his junior team) and he got to do the one drive. Daniel was placed at HRT by Red Bull junior team as its primary driver alongside Narain Karthikeyan. I didn't understand you meant that Seb and Lewis had a choice after they were champions - of course I agree with that.

jrwb6e wrote:
I feel really bad for Alonso. Not only did Kimi ruin Alonso's race, but he also messed up his Silverstone race, as he'll have to take another penalty because of the damaged engine. The rules should be penalising Kimi for his countless mistakes.


According to Alonso, the way Kimi's rear-end shot out to the left was 'strange' and Kimi confirms that he did nothing out of the ordinary to cause it. Alonso said he had followed Kimi as they zipped back and forth passing cars when suddenly that happened. So I think there is something wrong with the car. You can't penalize the driver in that scenario as he made no 'mistake' which is why the stewards didn't issue one. However, I agree that Alonso should not get additional penalties on account of damage caused by an incident. He won't be the first though and he won't be the last - but I think they should look into changing that rule.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:56 am 
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Alonso will have to serve his penalties in Silverstone? Really?

What a travesty.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:39 pm 
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mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:44 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


Same thing happened again in 2014, with Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari for Macca. In both cases the car he left improved and interestingly, in both cases the driver that took over was Vettel.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:07 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


Same thing happened again in 2014, with Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari for Macca. In both cases the car he left improved and interestingly, in both cases the driver that took over was Vettel.


I guess part of what makes a consistent WDC, besides being fast, is to be able to make good decisions with some foresight. Of this, Alonso hasn't done very well. Lewis and Vettel have.

Alonso can say all he wants about Ferrari not being first. But it sure as hell is better than being near last.

The reality is it will take Honda at least 3-4 years to come up with something good. By then, Alonso would have reached the end of his career. Hopefully, Ferrari will take him back. Imagine Vettel and him together, truly formidable.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:17 pm 
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trento wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


Same thing happened again in 2014, with Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari for Macca. In both cases the car he left improved and interestingly, in both cases the driver that took over was Vettel.


I guess part of what makes a consistent WDC, besides being fast, is to be able to make good decisions with some foresight. Of this, Alonso hasn't done very well. Lewis and Vettel have.

Alonso can say all he wants about Ferrari not being first. But it sure as hell is better than being near last.

The reality is it will take Honda at least 3-4 years to come up with something good. By then, Alonso would have reached the end of his career. Hopefully, Ferrari will take him back. Imagine Vettel and him together, truly formidable.


You mean luck?
You can't predict success in F1. All of Alonso's moves were good moves (with the current McHonda being the exception). The difference is that Alonso's moves haven't paid off, which can only be judged with the benefit of hindsight and seeing it play out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:22 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


But... but Newey! And oodles of money!


Anyway, I'm sure you've read my entire post, through which you should have noticed I showed empathy for his situation and acknowledge that it wasn't exactly that easy. Quoting just a tiny snippet of that post... yeah, OK then.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:05 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
trento wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


Same thing happened again in 2014, with Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari for Macca. In both cases the car he left improved and interestingly, in both cases the driver that took over was Vettel.


I guess part of what makes a consistent WDC, besides being fast, is to be able to make good decisions with some foresight. Of this, Alonso hasn't done very well. Lewis and Vettel have.

Alonso can say all he wants about Ferrari not being first. But it sure as hell is better than being near last.

The reality is it will take Honda at least 3-4 years to come up with something good. By then, Alonso would have reached the end of his career. Hopefully, Ferrari will take him back. Imagine Vettel and him together, truly formidable.


You mean luck?
You can't predict success in F1. All of Alonso's moves were good moves (with the current McHonda being the exception). The difference is that Alonso's moves haven't paid off, which can only be judged with the benefit of hindsight and seeing it play out.


Some call it luck, others call it foresight or speculation. Let's not forget Schumacher took a many good years before actually winning. Yes, Alonso would have taken even longer, but the fact is with Ferrari, that time is bound to come sooner or later.

As for the past, I felt his return to Renault was unnecessary. There may have been tensions with Lewis. But if Button and Rosberg can manage it, it was Alonso's failing not to do so and this brought him back to square one with an inferior car. And now, it's happening all over again.

Perhaps, it's not just decisions, but his personality.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:13 am 
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@trento

I'd call it luck rather than foresight as well.

For example you cite Lewis and Seb with having foresight but if Lewis had got his way he would have been in a Red Bull. Which would have been great for 2013, if he could have overcome Seb, but not so great for '14 and '15. Because they turned him down he chose Mercedes over staying at McLaren and is where he is now. Good call on picking Merc over McLaren but still very fortunate RB said no.

Seb's decision was for emotional reasons and Ferrari were self admittedly looking at a multi year rebuilding process and the performance leap over the winter from them and RB going backwards surprised everyone. Quite fortunate too.



EDIT: Forgot to add that Alonso didn't leave McLaren because of tension with Lewis so it wasn't a case of dealing with it like Button or Rosberg. He left because he fell out with Ron and couldn't trust him and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
@trento

I'd call it luck rather than foresight as well.

For example you cite Lewis and Seb with having foresight but if Lewis had got his way he would have been in a Red Bull. Which would have been great for 2013, if he could have overcome Seb, but not so great for '14 and '15. Because they turned him down he chose Mercedes over staying at McLaren and is where he is now. Good call on picking Merc over McLaren but still very fortunate RB said no.

Seb's decision was for emotional reasons and Ferrari were self admittedly looking at a multi year rebuilding process and the performance leap over the winter from them and RB going backwards surprised everyone. Quite fortunate too.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Alonso didn't leave McLaren because of tension with Lewis so it wasn't a case of dealing with it like Button or Rosberg. He left because he fell out with Ron and couldn't trust him and vice versa.


But that distrust was built on the interaction and tension between he and Lewis. I think in that situation he lacked patience, which spawned poor decision making.

However, with Ferrari, I think he became impatient and lost faith in the team. He said at the time that after 5 years, he wanted to move to a team where he could improve his title chances. However, nothing went according to plan, despite Alonso declaring otherwise, and ultimately he had no choice but to go to McLaren or take a sabbatical. They were willing to pay ungodly money to have him so that happened. But to me, the problem is that Alonso is not "all in" with the whole McHonda deal. It was never his objective to help develop a car from baby steps through maturity. His objective was to challenge for the title and he was "all in" with the deal they proposed - short term hardship with the new car project, but quickly improving to a world beater. However, progress is much slower than anticipated so it is understandable that he is super frustrated with the project - and the team because they got it so wrong. I don't always agree with his manner of venting, but I get where he is coming from.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:20 pm 
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trento wrote:
Some call it luck, others call it foresight or speculation. Let's not forget Schumacher took a many good years before actually winning. Yes, Alonso would have taken even longer, but the fact is with Ferrari, that time is bound to come sooner or later.

As for the past, I felt his return to Renault was unnecessary. There may have been tensions with Lewis. But if Button and Rosberg can manage it, it was Alonso's failing not to do so and this brought him back to square one with an inferior car. And now, it's happening all over again.

Perhaps, it's not just decisions, but his personality.


Foresight and luck are not the same thing. Foresight is the ability to predict something, or the ability to predict what you need to do in the future. Everymove Alonso made had good foresight, moving to Ferrari made sense, moving to McLaren made sense. All had good foresight. The difference between his moves and Vettel/Hamilton's moves is that his moves haven't paid off. That is nothing to do with foresight, that is straight luck.

There is a reason foresight involves predictions. Predictions are not always accurate. The same way Alonso's moves haven't paid off, it could just have easily have happened to Vettel or Hamilton. It's just luck whether they pay off or not.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:16 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
@trento

I'd call it luck rather than foresight as well.

For example you cite Lewis and Seb with having foresight but if Lewis had got his way he would have been in a Red Bull. Which would have been great for 2013, if he could have overcome Seb, but not so great for '14 and '15. Because they turned him down he chose Mercedes over staying at McLaren and is where he is now. Good call on picking Merc over McLaren but still very fortunate RB said no.

Seb's decision was for emotional reasons and Ferrari were self admittedly looking at a multi year rebuilding process and the performance leap over the winter from them and RB going backwards surprised everyone. Quite fortunate too.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Alonso didn't leave McLaren because of tension with Lewis so it wasn't a case of dealing with it like Button or Rosberg. He left because he fell out with Ron and couldn't trust him and vice versa.


But that distrust was built on the interaction and tension between he and Lewis. I think in that situation he lacked patience, which spawned poor decision making.

However, with Ferrari, I think he became impatient and lost faith in the team. He said at the time that after 5 years, he wanted to move to a team where he could improve his title chances. However, nothing went according to plan, despite Alonso declaring otherwise, and ultimately he had no choice but to go to McLaren or take a sabbatical. They were willing to pay ungodly money to have him so that happened. But to me, the problem is that Alonso is not "all in" with the whole McHonda deal. It was never his objective to help develop a car from baby steps through maturity. His objective was to challenge for the title and he was "all in" with the deal they proposed - short term hardship with the new car project, but quickly improving to a world beater. However, progress is much slower than anticipated so it is understandable that he is super frustrated with the project - and the team because they got it so wrong. I don't always agree with his manner of venting, but I get where he is coming from.


The distrust was built on a belief his car was being messed around with on Alonso's side and that his driver tried to blackmail him on Ron's side. The working relationship was done, and that's why he left. And it was a huge mistake on Alonso's part it came to that. But the point is he didn't leave because of some Button-Lewis -Rosberg team mate tension which is what I was replying to.


Not sure what the 2nd paragraph has to do with me or my post but I don't think he was impatient with Ferrari but I agree he lost faith.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:26 am 
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mds wrote:
Alonso will have to serve his penalties in Silverstone? Really?

What a travesty.




Yeah, they should just start him from the factory.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:36 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
I still feel that maybe Alonso should have gone to RBR in 2008 instead of returning to Renault (what good was going to come from that, honestly?)

Its easy to say that when its all past it.
You remember that he won two WDC with Renault only about 1 season before the start of 2008? The logical think was to believe that Renault would be more or less competitive again as they were a proven winning team.... Unlike Red Bull, that prior 2009 no one expected them to be so much competitive in the following years.


Same thing happened again in 2014, with Alonso deciding to leave Ferrari for Macca. In both cases the car he left improved and interestingly, in both cases the driver that took over was Vettel.

Except Vettel didnt take over from Alonso at Red Bull, but yeah. Vettel is a really luck guy.


Last edited by nixxxon on Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:39 pm 
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Great result yesterday.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:56 am 
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chican wrote:
Great result yesterday.

Yeap, good drive from Fernando


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:21 am 
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Wasn't sure whether to post this in the Hamilton or Alonso thread.

An interesting race between the two... to be the one behind at the DRS detection line.

The speed Alonso realises and reacts to what Hamilton is trying is incredible 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:01 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the Hamilton or Alonso thread.

An interesting race between the two... to be the one behind at the DRS detection line.

The speed Alonso realises and reacts to what Hamilton is trying is incredible 8O


How many of the current crop of F1 drivers would have realised the same thing Alonso did I do wonder.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:09 pm 
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Tough tough year for Alonso fans. Hang in there.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:27 am 
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Alonso earned 161 points last year in the F14T, This year Kimi can only possibly get 160 if he wins at Abu Dhabi.

I admit, I lol'd.


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