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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
.
Quote:

No matter how many times I see this sort of comment from you, I still cannot fathom how you can compare Obama's ego with bubblefart's...we live in a parallel universe.


Fascinating isn't it.

Half the American population saw a deeply magnanimous and humble man. The other half saw a narcissistic, bitter man.

I suspect the failure of the elites to fully get to grips with that divide cost them the election.

I went to a debate on this before the election in London, and Christopher Caldwell tried to make this point: that to a certain refined portion of the population they were just not picking up that Obama was simply talking past and over a very large sector of the electorate. How could he? The mellifluous tones, the gravitas, the thoughtful cadences and the pauses, head tilted archly for effect.

Across America punters in bars were reaching for the remote whenever he appeared on screen.

Personally, I thought he was completely full of shit.


m8888, not even you really believe that. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
penguin wrote:
Yes,on the salesman part but the difference between a salesman and conman is whether they actually have something real to sell you. bubblefart did not and does not have a real solution to these problems. He sold them snake oil. He's a conman.



And Obama delivered on all his promises ...


name the ones he failed on....


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Dongerous ground there, Danger. I mean there's Gitmo for starters


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
Obama didn't have a complete majority, bubblefart has a clear majority.

So far the only thing bubblefart has done better than Obama, is golf holiday.


I thought Trmp lost the popular vote.

If you are talking about "control" in the House and Senate, Trmp is subject to vicious attacks and backstabs from his "own" Republicans - he controls fokkol, he has to make deals yo just stay alive.


Do you think that would have happened if Obama controlled the house and the senate?

Obama got stuff through, even though they tried to block him at every turn.

The current administration is the political equivalent of constipation. Nothing is getting out.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Donger wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
penguin wrote:
Yes,on the salesman part but the difference between a salesman and conman is whether they actually have something real to sell you. bubblefart did not and does not have a real solution to these problems. He sold them snake oil. He's a conman.



And Obama delivered on all his promises ...


name the ones he failed on....


Closing Guantanamo, you've got to give them that one...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:57 pm 
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shanky wrote:
bessantj wrote:
shanky wrote:
If anyone can get HBO, I would recommend this

http://youtu.be/AyloY0AexbM

'A House Divided'.

Compelling viewing and an insight into how Obama went from hero to not, in 2 years.


Would you be able to give us some of the highlights? I doubt I'm getting HBO anytime soon.


It's an interview-based format, with players from both sides.

The first item was the response to the GFC. A rare opportunity to get bipartisan response was lost due to politics getting in the way. Obama does not come out of that bit well. He basically would not let the Republicans have anything in the bill, saying 'winners get to call the shots'.
As a result, not one single GOP congressman voted for the stimulus bill.

He then did something similar on the health bill, and it was downhill from there. The hatred set in.

What was really good was the candour these guys were talking with. Real House of Cards type insight.

Saw it on the plane so it might pop up on youtube some time


not true.

mate, that is a complete turn the table on what actually happened. they opposed everything he did from day one, and admitted to doing so. they had no desire to be negotiate meaningfully, and absolutely no desire for him to have any victories at all. the greatest undermining of government for political gain I have seen anywhere.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Not sure if it's already been discussed, but Donald is looking for another healthcare vote next week.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/20/obamacare-repeal-republicans-new-deal-237397

Donald is so focused on getting a win before his 100 days are up, that he's going to push for something that hasn't got a snowballs chance in hell of passing. I doubt it'll even get as far as a vote, but if they release the details of their new bill, the media will pick up the story and Donald will have another big failure to have in the headlines just as his 100 days are finishing.

It's amazing how thick his whole administration is.


Last edited by MorseCode on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:00 pm 
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penguin wrote:
Donger wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
penguin wrote:
Yes,on the salesman part but the difference between a salesman and conman is whether they actually have something real to sell you. bubblefart did not and does not have a real solution to these problems. He sold them snake oil. He's a conman.



And Obama delivered on all his promises ...


name the ones he failed on....


Closing Guantanamo, you've got to give them that one...


:lol: yes, and despite finding several states that would take the perps, some of those even being Red states, the GOP still obstructed it. :blush:

here. in my view, it was an astonishing record for a guy faced with unprecedented obstruction from day one, and losing control of Congress after two years.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

note that the promises he was unable to keep generally ended up in compromise. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:02 pm 
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henry wrote:
Cheeto Jesus :lol:

Quality.

Good to see the light still burns bright for some Trumpers.

I was worried that his failure to repeal Obamacare, his flip-flopping on NATO, his big increase in US defence spending, his bombing of Syria, the deteriorating relationship with Russia, his schooling at the hands of China and his war-like rhetoric over North Korea would have antagonised some of his change-orientated, peace-loving supporters.

But so far, only Silver appears to have possessed the intellectual consistency to abandon ship.

That said, haven't seen Oceanbreeze the Wise for some time.


:lol:

probably sick of winning...


Last edited by Taranaki Snapper on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
bessantj wrote:
shanky wrote:
If anyone can get HBO, I would recommend this

http://youtu.be/AyloY0AexbM

'A House Divided'.

Compelling viewing and an insight into how Obama went from hero to not, in 2 years.


Would you be able to give us some of the highlights? I doubt I'm getting HBO anytime soon.


It's an interview-based format, with players from both sides.

The first item was the response to the GFC. A rare opportunity to get bipartisan response was lost due to politics getting in the way. Obama does not come out of that bit well. He basically would not let the Republicans have anything in the bill, saying 'winners get to call the shots'.
As a result, not one single GOP congressman voted for the stimulus bill.

He then did something similar on the health bill, and it was downhill from there. The hatred set in.

What was really good was the candour these guys were talking with. Real House of Cards type insight.

Saw it on the plane so it might pop up on youtube some time


not true.

mate, that is a complete turn the table on what actually happened. they opposed everything he did from day one, and admitted to doing so. they had no desire to be negotiate meaningfully, and absolutely no desire for him to have any victories at all. the greatest undermining of government for political gain I have seen anywhere.


Have you seen the show?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
Obama didn't have a complete majority, bubblefart has a clear majority.

So far the only thing bubblefart has done better than Obama, is golf holiday.


I thought Trmp lost the popular vote.

If you are talking about "control" in the House and Senate, Trmp is subject to vicious attacks and backstabs from his "own" Republicans - he controls fokkol, he has to make deals yo just stay alive.


so, not having a compliant Congress is now a reason for not achieving your objectives?

I can't wait for the next instalment of WT flip floppery. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
houtkabouter wrote:
Obama didn't have a complete majority, bubblefart has a clear majority.

So far the only thing bubblefart has done better than Obama, is golf holiday.


I thought Trmp lost the popular vote.

If you are talking about "control" in the House and Senate, Trmp is subject to vicious attacks and backstabs from his "own" Republicans - he controls fokkol, he has to make deals yo just stay alive.


It's almost as if he isn't God-Emperor of Mankind. But how can this be?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:08 pm 
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shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
bessantj wrote:
shanky wrote:
If anyone can get HBO, I would recommend this

http://youtu.be/AyloY0AexbM

'A House Divided'.

Compelling viewing and an insight into how Obama went from hero to not, in 2 years.


Would you be able to give us some of the highlights? I doubt I'm getting HBO anytime soon.


It's an interview-based format, with players from both sides.

The first item was the response to the GFC. A rare opportunity to get bipartisan response was lost due to politics getting in the way. Obama does not come out of that bit well. He basically would not let the Republicans have anything in the bill, saying 'winners get to call the shots'.
As a result, not one single GOP congressman voted for the stimulus bill.

He then did something similar on the health bill, and it was downhill from there. The hatred set in.

What was really good was the candour these guys were talking with. Real House of Cards type insight.

Saw it on the plane so it might pop up on youtube some time


not true.

mate, that is a complete turn the table on what actually happened. they opposed everything he did from day one, and admitted to doing so. they had no desire to be negotiate meaningfully, and absolutely no desire for him to have any victories at all. the greatest undermining of government for political gain I have seen anywhere.


Have you seen the show?


mate, I lived it. I don't need anyone to dress it up and tell me the GOP were actually in good faith reaching out to have input. it never happened.

the sabotaging of the economy for political gain was outrageous.

but you know that.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:12 pm 
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Donger wrote:
penguin wrote:
Donger wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
penguin wrote:
Yes,on the salesman part but the difference between a salesman and conman is whether they actually have something real to sell you. bubblefart did not and does not have a real solution to these problems. He sold them snake oil. He's a conman.



And Obama delivered on all his promises ...


name the ones he failed on....


Closing Guantanamo, you've got to give them that one...


:lol: yes, and despite finding several states that would take the perps, some of those even being Red states, the GOP still obstructed it. :blush:

here. in my view, it was an astonishing record for a guy faced with unprecedented obstruction from day one, and losing control of Congress after two years.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

note that the promises he was unable to keep generally ended up in compromise. :thumbup:


How is compromise defined there?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Donger wrote:

mate, I lived it. I don't need anyone to dress it up and tell me the GOP were actually in good faith reaching out to have input. it never happened.

the sabotaging of the economy for political gain was outrageous.

but you know that.


I know your mind is made up already, if that's what you're asking.

Boehner went to great lengths to make a deal. The evidence is there to see.

You should watch it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:20 pm 
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shanky wrote:
bessantj wrote:
shanky wrote:
If anyone can get HBO, I would recommend this

http://youtu.be/AyloY0AexbM

'A House Divided'.

Compelling viewing and an insight into how Obama went from hero to not, in 2 years.


Would you be able to give us some of the highlights? I doubt I'm getting HBO anytime soon.


It's an interview-based format, with players from both sides.

The first item was the response to the GFC. A rare opportunity to get bipartisan response was lost due to politics getting in the way. Obama does not come out of that bit well. He basically would not let the Republicans have anything in the bill, saying 'winners get to call the shots'.
As a result, not one single GOP congressman voted for the stimulus bill.

He then did something similar on the health bill, and it was downhill from there. The hatred set in.

What was really good was the candour these guys were talking with. Real House of Cards type insight.

Saw it on the plane so it might pop up on youtube some time


Thanks. It's sad to see how something like the ACA was battered about.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Kiwias wrote:
Man In Black wrote:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-on-the-new-book-that-brutalizes-the-clinton-campaign-w477978

Good article here about the arrogance and failures of the Clintons.


I watched Clinton in an interview recently and she sounded like an alcoholic in advanced denial.

All the shit that was happening in her life was because of this or that or something else or that other thing or that person or this group.

Nothing was ever down to her own failings.


Yeah, here in the United States we've been exposed to this since 1993.

Campaign staff circling the wagons to disclaim all this stuff. I did in December read a Politico article about the national staff trying to say nothing was their fault on a conference call, which had left some state-level Democratic Party figures incredulous with "are you f**k kidding me?"


Last edited by Flyin Ryan on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:24 pm 
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MorseCode wrote:
Not sure if it's already been discussed, but Donald is looking for another healthcare vote next week.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/20/obamacare-repeal-republicans-new-deal-237397

Donald is so focused on getting a win before his 100 days are up, that he's going to push for something that hasn't got a snowballs chance in hell of passing. I doubt it'll even get as far as a vote, but if they release the details of their new bill, the media will pick up the story and Donald will have another big failure to have in the headlines just as his 100 days are finishing.

It's amazing how thick his whole administration is.


You're just not smart enough to understand the 5D chess that the Donald is playing.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Silver wrote:
MorseCode wrote:
Not sure if it's already been discussed, but Donald is looking for another healthcare vote next week.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/20/obamacare-repeal-republicans-new-deal-237397

Donald is so focused on getting a win before his 100 days are up, that he's going to push for something that hasn't got a snowballs chance in hell of passing. I doubt it'll even get as far as a vote, but if they release the details of their new bill, the media will pick up the story and Donald will have another big failure to have in the headlines just as his 100 days are finishing.

It's amazing how thick his whole administration is.


You're just not smart enough to understand the 5D chess that the Donald is playing.


I think Donald only likes Double Ds.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:32 pm 
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shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:

mate, I lived it. I don't need anyone to dress it up and tell me the GOP were actually in good faith reaching out to have input. it never happened.

the sabotaging of the economy for political gain was outrageous.

but you know that.


I know your mind is made up already, if that's what you're asking.

Boehner went to great lengths to make a deal. The evidence is there to see.

You should watch it.


and I know your mind is made up. ;)

mate, seriously, I lived it up close and personal on a daily basis.

Boehner indeed was one of the few that tried to actually deal, and Obama responded to that.

But Boehner was hamstrung by a party that had no real interest in doing a deal. none. their hatred of Obama was so entrenched as was their understanding that obstruction would lead to a change in ruling party in the House in the next cycle, especially after the significant gerrymandering of 2010.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:

mate, I lived it. I don't need anyone to dress it up and tell me the GOP were actually in good faith reaching out to have input. it never happened.

the sabotaging of the economy for political gain was outrageous.

but you know that.


I know your mind is made up already, if that's what you're asking.

Boehner went to great lengths to make a deal. The evidence is there to see.

You should watch it.


and I know your mind is made up. ;)

mate, seriously, I lived it up close and personal on a daily basis.

Boehner indeed was one of the few that tried to actually deal, and Obama responded to that.

But Boehner was hamstrung by a party that had no real interest in doing a deal. none. their hatred of Obama was so entrenched as was their understanding that obstruction would lead to a change in ruling party in the House in the next cycle, especially after the significant gerrymandering of 2010.


Well, since you're pulling rank, I'll leave it there then


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:46 pm 
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shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:

mate, I lived it. I don't need anyone to dress it up and tell me the GOP were actually in good faith reaching out to have input. it never happened.

the sabotaging of the economy for political gain was outrageous.

but you know that.


I know your mind is made up already, if that's what you're asking.

Boehner went to great lengths to make a deal. The evidence is there to see.

You should watch it.


and I know your mind is made up. ;)

mate, seriously, I lived it up close and personal on a daily basis.

Boehner indeed was one of the few that tried to actually deal, and Obama responded to that.

But Boehner was hamstrung by a party that had no real interest in doing a deal. none. their hatred of Obama was so entrenched as was their understanding that obstruction would lead to a change in ruling party in the House in the next cycle, especially after the significant gerrymandering of 2010.


Well, since you're pulling rank, I'll leave it there then


;)

just giving you the benefit of my observations.

DT is right. Obama made a huge effort to cross the aisle, but the GOP had some things they would not compromise on, and those things were directly counter to the Dems philosophy. hence his "elections have consequences"...ironically, followed by "so I trump you there"!.

to be fair, Obama had some things he would not compromise on, but having won the election by a significant majority, unlike GW 8 years earlier, he had a right to claim mandates.

also ironically, the GOP used "mandate" like they had just discovered the word in 2000, but kept telling Obama he didn't have one.

I know you know this, but the gridlock on Congress is primarily, not totally, but primarily due to the fact that one party understands that obstructionism is good for their electability. their supporters love the hairy chested chest thumping and dog whistles. there really has not been a reasonable and good faith effort of the GOP to cross the aisles since before Gingrich. it's documented in their manifesto repeatedly.

I have said this before, but when I landed here, I was a true Red believer. but watching Gingrich play with the economy and governing as if the impact did not matter except that it would help the GOP get back into power, a lesson not lost on any of his successors, is when they lost me.

cnuts....the lot of them.

and it is with great delight that I keep seeing them fall. Cantor, Delay, Frist, Haster...etc etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Well we agree on one thing, definitely

Gingrich is a human shitstain who has virtually single-handedly ruined the status of Congress in the national psyche

Plum. :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Since nobody heard me the first time
Quote:
I have my doubts about this doc. Mainly because having lived through it, Republicans said the economy was fine until it crashed then Bush started the recovery and turned it over to Obama. At that point Republicans were now blaming the Dems and acting like they didn't push through Gramm-Leach-Biley and run congress for the years leading up to the crash. They then let the bailouts continue and after it was done cried foul and said it shouldn't have happened.

And Healthcare was greater joke as they decided points could be scored. You should see the Frank Lutz pdf on how to frame the argument. Obama spent more time crafting that bill and trying to get buy-in than people realize. It took almost a year and half, The GOP stood by and called death panels and everything else. The Dems passed it knowing full well they could lose seats but they did it for their leader and it was a way to move the conversation forward on Healthcare. The Dems got wallopped in the 2010 midterm because of it, and GOP firing up their base with Obama is the devil talk. Now they have it all and can't pass a thing because they know how to cause a stir but not how to governing.


I also want to add, the proof of their all hat no cattle talk can be seen in how they can't agree to anything. Calling the president a Liar at the state of the Union was fair play and got funds but actually governing and doing policies, they got nothing.


Last edited by Deadtigers on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Good post DT. :thumbup:

Both times. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:07 pm 
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shanky wrote:
Well we agree on one thing, definitely

Gingrich is a human shitstain who has virtually single-handedly ruined the status of Congress in the national psyche

Plum. :thumbdown:


:thumbup:

his sister is a lesbo rugby player. fantastic gal. she regularly takes him to task. it's beautiful.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:07 pm 
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There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Deadtigers wrote:
Since nobody heard me the first time
Quote:
I have my doubts about this doc. Mainly because having lived through it, Republicans said the economy was fine until it crashed then Bush started the recovery and turned it over to Obama. At that point Republicans were now blaming the Dems and acting like they didn't push through Gramm-Leach-Biley and run congress for the years leading up to the crash. They then let the bailouts continue and after it was done cried foul and said it shouldn't have happened.

And Healthcare was greater joke as they decided points could be scored. You should see the Frank Lutz pdf on how to frame the argument. Obama spent more time crafting that bill and trying to get buy-in than people realize. It took almost a year and half, The GOP stood and called death panels and everything else. The Dems passed it knowing full well they could lose seats but they did it for their leader and it was a way to move the conversation forward on Healthcare. The Dems got wallopped in the 2012 midterm because of it, and GOP firing up their base and Obama is the devil. Now they have it all and can't pass a thing because they know how to cause a stir but not how to governing.


:x

Quote:
DT is right. Obama made a huge effort to cross the aisle, but the GOP had some things they would not compromise on


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


I think social media and instant gratification play a part, but for the US, the big issues are:

- free money in politics. repeal Citizens and limit candidates to a publicly funded pool of funds that is equal.
- make everyone vote. right now, you only need to talk with the crazies to win.
- eliminate gerrymandering. it's appalling that a nation obsessed with foisting "democracy" on everyone else has such an undemocratic set of standards itself.
- not as necessary, but make the electoral college less dominant.

all of the above will help make people work toward to center whereas now, the incentive is to head for the fringes.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
Well we agree on one thing, definitely

Gingrich is a human shitstain who has virtually single-handedly ruined the status of Congress in the national psyche

Plum. :thumbdown:


:thumbup:

his sister is a lesbo rugby player. fantastic gal. she regularly takes him to task. it's beautiful.


Have you met him? Or talked to sis about him?

Is he really like that in real life ?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:20 pm 
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shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
Well we agree on one thing, definitely

Gingrich is a human shitstain who has virtually single-handedly ruined the status of Congress in the national psyche

Plum. :thumbdown:


:thumbup:

his sister is a lesbo rugby player. fantastic gal. she regularly takes him to task. it's beautiful.


Have you met him? Or talked to sis about him?

Is he really like that in real life ?


no, but you would swear that you had met him if you met her. ;)

nah, that's unfair. she is a great lass.

seen him up close, though, and it's sort of like the cobra hypnotizing it's prey before spitting deadly venom in their eyes. he is, at first, a convincing speaker. brilliant. and he can put forward diametrically opposed propositions in one discussion believably. until you leave the room and start thinking again.

the only one I found more convincing, but in a more frightening way, was Wolfowitz. I would instinctively check that I still had my wallet after hearing him live. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Donger wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


I think social media and instant gratification play a part, but for the US, the big issues are:

- free money in politics. repeal Citizens and limit candidates to a publicly funded pool of funds that is equal.
- make everyone vote. right now, you only need to talk with the crazies to win.
- eliminate gerrymandering. it's appalling that a nation obsessed with foisting "democracy" on everyone else has such an undemocratic set of standards itself.
- not as necessary, but make the electoral college less dominant.

all of the above will help make people work toward to center whereas now, the incentive is to head for the fringes.


:thumbup: Crucial to everything. Not sure how lobbying was ever legal in the first place...seems such a basic rule to put in place.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
Donger wrote:
shanky wrote:
Well we agree on one thing, definitely

Gingrich is a human shitstain who has virtually single-handedly ruined the status of Congress in the national psyche

Plum. :thumbdown:


:thumbup:

his sister is a lesbo rugby player. fantastic gal. she regularly takes him to task. it's beautiful.


Have you met him? Or talked to sis about him?

Is he really like that in real life ?


no, but you would swear that you had met him if you met her. ;)

nah, that's unfair. she is a great lass.

seen him up close, though, and it's sort of like the cobra hypnotizing it's prey before spitting deadly venom in their eyes. he is, at first, a convincing speaker. brilliant. and he can put forward diametrically opposed propositions in one discussion believably. until you leave the room and start thinking again.

the only one I found more convincing, but in a more frightening way, was Wolfowitz. I would instinctively check that I still had my wallet after hearing him live. :lol:



Great insights, thanks. :thumbup:

I can especially accept the Wolfowitz one. Probably only Perle himself was more convincing. No wonder the Bush simpleton was entranced.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Donger wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


I think social media and instant gratification play a part, but for the US, the big issues are:

- free money in politics. repeal Citizens and limit candidates to a publicly funded pool of funds that is equal.
- make everyone vote. right now, you only need to talk with the crazies to win.
- eliminate gerrymandering. it's appalling that a nation obsessed with foisting "democracy" on everyone else has such an undemocratic set of standards itself.
- not as necessary, but make the electoral college less dominant.

all of the above will help make people work toward to center whereas now, the incentive is to head for the fringes.


One of the best posts on this thread. If these issues aren't properly addressed in the near future, there is no way the US can convince the rest of the world to embrace democracy. I think the events of the last couple of years, illuminated in this thread (with the recent election as the "pinnacle") speak for themselves.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Donger wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


I think social media and instant gratification play a part, but for the US, the big issues are:

- free money in politics. repeal Citizens and limit candidates to a publicly funded pool of funds that is equal.
- make everyone vote. right now, you only need to talk with the crazies to win.
- eliminate gerrymandering. it's appalling that a nation obsessed with foisting "democracy" on everyone else has such an undemocratic set of standards itself.
- not as necessary, but make the electoral college less dominant.

all of the above will help make people work toward to center whereas now, the incentive is to head for the fringes.


Donger

Excellent points but the key question is, in your learned opinion, how realistic are they?

I know there is no hope under Trump but assuming the next president is a decent human being, from either party


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Kiwias wrote:
Donger wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


I think social media and instant gratification play a part, but for the US, the big issues are:

- free money in politics. repeal Citizens and limit candidates to a publicly funded pool of funds that is equal.
- make everyone vote. right now, you only need to talk with the crazies to win.
- eliminate gerrymandering. it's appalling that a nation obsessed with foisting "democracy" on everyone else has such an undemocratic set of standards itself.
- not as necessary, but make the electoral college less dominant.

all of the above will help make people work toward to center whereas now, the incentive is to head for the fringes.


Donger

Excellent points but the key question is, in your learned opinion, how realistic are they?

I know there is no hope under bubblefart but assuming the next president is a decent human being, from either party


Maybe it's just my view of america from a distance, but I'd anticipate strong resistance to mandatory voting on the basis of it being the government imposing itself on personal freedoms. I think it would be a good move but I'd imagine there would be some fierce libertarian style opposition there.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


Examples?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:49 pm 
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Donger wrote:
Taranaki Snapper wrote:
There have been times in the modern era when bi-cameral 2-party polities within the anglosphere/western democratic tradition have reached across the aisle and forged bi-partisan agreements for the benefit of the electorate...however, it appears that we have descended so far into our entrenched and tribal positions that this is no longer or not currently feasible...where to from here?


I think social media and instant gratification play a part, but for the US, the big issues are:

- free money in politics. repeal Citizens and limit candidates to a publicly funded pool of funds that is equal.
- make everyone vote. right now, you only need to talk with the crazies to win.
- eliminate gerrymandering. it's appalling that a nation obsessed with foisting "democracy" on everyone else has such an undemocratic set of standards itself.
- not as necessary, but make the electoral college less dominant.

all of the above will help make people work toward to center whereas now, the incentive is to head for the fringes.


Sign me up.

I would also add that the primary system might need some tweaking so that idealogues have less of a look in, particularly with regards to House members. Perhaps run offs.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Location: A gaf in Bracknell
Dongs, I'm in DC in September if you fancy a pint.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:13 pm 
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houtkabouter wrote:
Dongs, I'm in DC in September if you fancy a pint.


:lol: september! Fark, this will be the most planned and co-ordinated cabal eva!

Sure. Any time. And my southern maryland and west Virginia redoubts are open for my fellow commies if you fancy a break from the big city...


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