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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:04 pm 
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f1madman wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
f1madman wrote:
Hamilton is so G. O. A. T!

despite the team orders thing he's been driving excellently. Can't believe him and merc turned the tables around so well while ferrari had the advantage.

It’s really strange how Ferrari as a whole have fallen apart, but especially Vettel. Now 2014 doesn’t look like an anomaly any more judging by the way Hamilton has outclassed him in 2017 and 2018 and the mistakes he has accrued in that time which have to be in double figures by now. 2019 is a big year for Vettel because if Leclerc outshines him Vettel might never recover. I’m just astounded by the number of points a 4 X World champion has thrown away at supposedly his peak. BBC have calculated that without those high profile errors Vettel should be 13 point ahead! That’s 13 points ahead with 4 races remaining. What a different complexion that gives to the title fight. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45812129

Yeah Vettel mistakes then put more pressure on ferrari who then made mistakes to claw back points. Which then put more pressure on Vettel to overdrive.

It's funny, had the results in a couple of races gone differently there may have been a different outcome.

Atleast with Lewis he managed to stay calm and drive well even with the dodgy merc strategy calls at the beginning of the season. Yeah he complains sometimes but he managed to keep his head at key points when it mattered the most.

I would say a key point of the season was Vettel crashing out of the lead of the German GP, if that had not happened he could have ridden out some of the results that followed without the pressure ramping up.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 am 
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Yeah the German go was definitely going to hurt, from the lead, no real pressure (other than being wet), in front of his home GP, and also being the smallest of mistakes costing so dearly.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Vettel has always been very error prone - it's just that in 2011 & 2013 it meant nothing because nobody was ever close enough to put him under pressure in the championship. His mistakes were pretty much the only reason that the WDC was closer than it should have been in 2010 & 2012, and now they are one of the main reasons he has missed out in 2017 & 2018. Vettel makes mistakes throughout a season, simple as that. Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:08 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


I agree. He's clearly in the elite of his generation.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:28 am 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:38 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.



Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:48 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.

Third if we are not counting Verstappen as being the same generation as him, he's still elite in my book though it's just that the present standard is so high.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:10 am 
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Invade wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.



Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


Seb certainly started out the year very well in 2017 but had only 1 win in the last nine races. Those races include the disaster in Singapore (whatever combination of drivers you think caused that) and the spark plug fiasco of the Japanese Grand Prix. He also had needless contact with Lewis in Mexico and finished fourth there.

I count that as somewhat of a failed year mostly because the last nine races didn't measure up at all to the trajectory Seb and the team had set before the summer break. Everyone agreed that Lewis was in trouble after the Hungarian GP that year. Seb failed to close the deal. He led by 14 points after Hungary. At the end of the season his deficit to Lewis was 46 points. It's not as bad as the melt down this year but is a large belly drop for fans of tight racing.

Yes, that may be hard on Vettel since the first part of his season was excellent, but the championship is over the course of the whole season.

P.S. If Charles Leclerc is the next champion for Ferrari it will certainly not help Sebastian's legacy.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:50 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Vettel has always been very error prone - it's just that in 2011 & 2013 it meant nothing because nobody was ever close enough to put him under pressure in the championship. His mistakes were pretty much the only reason that the WDC was closer than it should have been in 2010 & 2012, and now they are one of the main reasons he has missed out in 2017 & 2018. Vettel makes mistakes throughout a season, simple as that. Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers


That's a really good point, forgot about the seasons where he was crashing into webber and still winning the wdc.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:28 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


I agree. He's clearly in the elite of his generation.


Disagree, he is a long way behind Hamilton and Alonso, found to be inferior to Riccardo in 2014. Now on that point granted a bad season for Vettel and every driver has these and as such I would make allowances for 2014 being a bad season and not use that against him. As such I would say he is on Riccardo's level despite coming off worse when paired. Riccardo is getting beaten by Verstappen on pace even if he doesn't have the race craft. That puts Vettel joint 4th best on the grid (obviously this is just my opinion) and that doesn't make him an elite driver. Obviously it's early days for Verstappen tho so he could end up being over rated but more likely he will improve and cement vettel as 4th best on the grid for his era. Not elite. Unless he improves (obviously)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:33 am 
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Also in relation to Vettel having a good 2017 - I would again disagree, very much a wasted opportunity with Singapore and Japan and let's not forget his actions in Baku, which were Maldonado levels of stupidity and cost him a win as well


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:35 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Also in relation to Vettel having a good 2017 - I would again disagree, very much a wasted opportunity with Singapore and Japan and let's not forget his actions in Baku, which were Maldonado levels of stupidity and cost him a win as well


Can't blame him for Japan unless he went out and bought the spark plug himself.

His 2017 was pretty good IMO without being very good. Mistakes in Baku, Singapore and Mexico stopped it being very good.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:10 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree. He's clearly in the elite of his generation.

Disagree, he is a long way behind Hamilton and Alonso, found to be inferior to Riccardo in 2014. Now on that point granted a bad season for Vettel and every driver has these and as such I would make allowances for 2014 being a bad season and not use that against him. As such I would say he is on Riccardo's level despite coming off worse when paired. Riccardo is getting beaten by Verstappen on pace even if he doesn't have the race craft. That puts Vettel joint 4th best on the grid (obviously this is just my opinion) and that doesn't make him an elite driver. Obviously it's early days for Verstappen tho so he could end up being over rated but more likely he will improve and cement vettel as 4th best on the grid for his era. Not elite. Unless he improves (obviously)

I'd say if he's the fourth best of his generation, he's pretty safely elite.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:27 am 
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JN23 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:

Mistakes in Baku, Singapore and Mexico stopped it being good.


Corrected for you. Even for Vettel and Ferrari they admitted they were not good enough. They were their own enemy. Likewise for this season.

Meaning they lost the title due to their mistakes.

= Not good enough.
= Not good.

The only difference between 2017/2018 is that this season they had a better car for more races and you could say they should be leading this by a nice margin.

Unless you compare Ferrari to previous years where they didn't have a race winning capable car. In that case.. Ferrari were good last year. BUT the expectations of Ferrari is to have a race winning car..


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:02 am 
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Invade wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.



Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


Since joining Red Bull he is maintaining his good odd and bad even years very well.

Good years: 2009,2011,2013,2015 and 2017
Bad years: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2018


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:29 am 
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JN23 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Also in relation to Vettel having a good 2017 - I would again disagree, very much a wasted opportunity with Singapore and Japan and let's not forget his actions in Baku, which were Maldonado levels of stupidity and cost him a win as well


Can't blame him for Japan unless he went out and bought the spark plug himself.

His 2017 was pretty good IMO without being very good. Mistakes in Baku, Singapore and Mexico stopped it being very good.

You can’t directly blame Vettel for the spark plug fiasco in Japan. Ferrari’s quality control failed in their processes. And we don’t really know the true nature of what happened. But I would argue that you can, perhaps, apportion Vettel some blame, for the general sense of pressure surrounding the team in the run up to Japan. Not only did Vettel play a role in the Singapore Ferrari double DNF, but he further compounds overall pressure by getting involved in an unnecessary post-race incident, with Stroll, in Malaysia. His car was extensively damaged, further adding to the team’s workload (including Raik FP3 crash in Japan), ramping up the pressure. Can we conclusively rule out a knock on effect? Did this extra strain on processes somehow contribute to the team’s failings/oversight in Japan? I have seen some within the industry argue that Ferrari’s late season reliability problems and errors came about because of the pressure they were under. Is it totally unreasonable to suggest that Vettel's crashes/mistakes, inadvertently contributed to that pressure?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.



Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


Since joining Red Bull he is maintaining his good odd and bad even years very well.

Good years: 2009,2011,2013,2015 and 2017
Bad years: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2018


Honestly don't see how you can say that 2017 was a good year when by Vettel/Ferrari's own admissions they lost the title due to their own mistakes and Vettel had an incident whereby he literally used his car as a weapon - something other drivers have been and rightly should recieve race bans for.

Exediron wrote:
I'd say if he's the fourth best of his generation, he's pretty safely elite.


Its always going to be subjective - my view is that to be an elite you have a clear advantage over the rest of the field - in the current crop i'd say it is Hamilton & Alonso. Previously, I would have put Vettel in that bracket but his post-2013 form has revealed a lot about him and also shone some retrospective light on a few things regarding his dominant years at Red Bull, such as i mentioned above that he was still making a lot of mistakes during those years.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I'd say if he's the fourth best of his generation, he's pretty safely elite.
FormulaFun wrote:
Its always going to be subjective - my view is that to be an elite you have a clear advantage over the rest of the field - in the current crop i'd say it is Hamilton & Alonso. Previously, I would have put Vettel in that bracket but his post-2013 form has revealed a lot about him and also shone some retrospective light on a few things regarding his dominant years at Red Bull, such as i mentioned above that he was still making a lot of mistakes during those years.

Then I think your definition of elite is far too narrow. Vettel is clearly one of the better drivers on the current grid, and taken in terms of all F1 drivers who have driven during his career he's got to be in the top 5%. That makes him elite by any reasonable definition, just not - as I said earlier - in the elite of the elite.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:49 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'd say if he's the fourth best of his generation, he's pretty safely elite.
FormulaFun wrote:
Its always going to be subjective - my view is that to be an elite you have a clear advantage over the rest of the field - in the current crop i'd say it is Hamilton & Alonso. Previously, I would have put Vettel in that bracket but his post-2013 form has revealed a lot about him and also shone some retrospective light on a few things regarding his dominant years at Red Bull, such as i mentioned above that he was still making a lot of mistakes during those years.

Then I think your definition of elite is far too narrow. Vettel is clearly one of the better drivers on the current grid, and taken in terms of all F1 drivers who have driven during his career he's got to be in the top 5%. That makes him elite by any reasonable definition, just not - as I said earlier - in the elite of the elite.


I think Vettel is among the elite. He just needs to sort his head out.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:24 am 
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It's like I clicked on the official Vettel thread by mistake............ :?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:24 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
It's like I clicked on the official Vettel thread by mistake............ :?


That's the only way that thread gets any traffic :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:34 am 
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Lojik wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
It's like I clicked on the official Vettel thread by mistake............ :?


That's the only way that thread gets any traffic :D

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Even by page numbers Lewis wins around 95-16 against Vettel

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:59 am 
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f1madman wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
It's like I clicked on the official Vettel thread by mistake............ :?


That's the only way that thread gets any traffic :D

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Even by page numbers Lewis wins around 95-16 against Vettel

KR: 436 pages :smug:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers

I think that's going too far, personally. He is clearly an elite driver, he just isn't among the elite of the elite. I would agree that an argument could be made that he is not truly an elite champion, but what he certainly is not (IMO) is an all-time great.


Would say that Sebastian is probably the second best driver of this generation. No worse than third. His star has certainly been tarnished over the last five years and especially the last two. The somewhat self inflicted nature of his losses in 2017 and 2018 do not bode well for his eventual legacy. To guarantee himself a place among the all time greats of the sport he will have to find a way to turn his team into one that can beat Lewis and Mercedes over the course of at least one full season.



Aren't we being unfair on Vettel here for 2017? He made no more mistakes than Schumacher did in 1998 (I only bring it up because I watched this season recently), which is regarded by some as one of his better years. We are comparing Vettel to a driver who has been as reasonably close to error-free as one could reasonably expect for two years running now.

I thought Vettel was very good in 2017.

Hamilton was better IMV but Vettel wasn't so far away. He was very good but Hamilton was just better, and in 2018 Hamilton has continued on and Vettel has had a poorer year.

Crudely speaking...

Vettel's good years since 2014: 2015 and 2017.
Vettel's less good years since 2014: 2014, 2016, 2018.

Overall that is a bit concerning in that he hasn't consistently produced the performance one might expect.


Since joining Red Bull he is maintaining his good odd and bad even years very well.

Good years: 2009,2011,2013,2015 and 2017
Bad years: 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2018


How is 2012 a bad year for Seb?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Behind Webber at the 2/3 point of the season with Webber having 2 wins to his 1. He also only won 1 race in the first 13, he had a good last 5-6 races though. He wasn't awful but far from his best and the level he was at in 2011 and 2013 when he made Webber look useless. He also had some scrappy incidents in the title run in (in the races he wasn't leading from pole) nearly losing the title on the first lap at Brazil.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:34 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD1lR4-knso

Great words of respect here from Alonso and it was a heart-felt appreciation from Hamilton. I really think that these two have known since 2007 that they are the two best in the world.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:48 am 
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Yeah read the Alonso comments. Very magnanimous of him, such nice words

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:51 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Vettel has always been very error prone - it's just that in 2011 & 2013 it meant nothing because nobody was ever close enough to put him under pressure in the championship. His mistakes were pretty much the only reason that the WDC was closer than it should have been in 2010 & 2012, and now they are one of the main reasons he has missed out in 2017 & 2018. Vettel makes mistakes throughout a season, simple as that. Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers


Good points. Mark/Webber collided and at times would go against each other causing problems.

The other teams usually got a result due to the RBR having inside issues or making mistakes. Likewise for Nico/Lewis. Occasionally there would be track suiting a car.

Although I do think he is 'elite'. It doesn't change the fact that Lewis/Merc have made the least amount of mistakes this season. Weather has gone their way and being on the right tyres. When the Ferraris turn up at the weekend and odds are in their.. Lewis/Merc are not turning up and just out performing Ferrari/Vettel.. instead there are outside circumstances. Like strategy, weather, mistakes, crashes.

Look at Japan. "Clear dominance". Even though Vettel was out of position, collided with Max... that put him back not just a foot but two.

This doesn't take credit away from Lewis or Merc.. but Vettel/Ferrari had a few fingers on this season and one by one.. let go.

It is very important to remember that. When Merc have beaten Ferrari this season.. they have not just out qualified or got the results.. Ferrari/Vettel had something go against them. And to make matters worse.. they really had the car capable of it this year. If Ferrari build something even better... we would see 'dominance' level.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Edit: video deleted


Last edited by shoot999 on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:49 pm 
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I would place Vettel behind Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo. Like others before him and after him he was in the right car at the right time, another Newey flyer. His qualifying is better than his racing. No lower than 5th but then again what about Rosberg ? ... ;)

p.s. congrats to Lewis Hamilton on his 5th championship this year. He has been just sublime this year taking his driving and decision making to another level, been an absolute pleasure to watch and this season was as good as 2011 was bad Just another 3 to go now ! ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:47 pm 
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mas wrote:
I would place Vettel behind Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo. Like others before him and after him he was in the right car at the right time, another Newey flyer. His qualifying is better than his racing. No lower than 5th but then again what about Rosberg ? ... ;)

Since drivers that made their debuts around 2006 there has actually been a pretty stable number of elite drivers compared to 1994-2005. Hamilton is the standout in this regard as Schumacher was. I'd say that you have to include Ricciardo, Rosberg and Vettel with him. Alonso and Raikkonen are the odd ones out given their debut between Schumacher and Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:29 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
mas wrote:
I would place Vettel behind Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo. Like others before him and after him he was in the right car at the right time, another Newey flyer. His qualifying is better than his racing. No lower than 5th but then again what about Rosberg ? ... ;)

Since drivers that made their debuts around 2006 there has actually been a pretty stable number of elite drivers compared to 1994-2005. Hamilton is the standout in this regard as Schumacher was. I'd say that you have to include Ricciardo, Rosberg and Vettel with him. Alonso and Raikkonen are the odd ones out given their debut between Schumacher and Hamilton.

Button as well is from that in-between generation.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:00 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Vettel has always been very error prone - it's just that in 2011 & 2013 it meant nothing because nobody was ever close enough to put him under pressure in the championship. His mistakes were pretty much the only reason that the WDC was closer than it should have been in 2010 & 2012, and now they are one of the main reasons he has missed out in 2017 & 2018. Vettel makes mistakes throughout a season, simple as that. Despite his 4 WDCs he isn't an elite driver. And as harsh as the words may be, if he doesn't show some top form again he's possibly going to be looked at as one of the worst multiple WDC winning drivers


Good points. Mark/Webber collided and at times would go against each other causing problems.

The other teams usually got a result due to the RBR having inside issues or making mistakes. Likewise for Nico/Lewis. Occasionally there would be track suiting a car.

Although I do think he is 'elite'. It doesn't change the fact that Lewis/Merc have made the least amount of mistakes this season. Weather has gone their way and being on the right tyres. When the Ferraris turn up at the weekend and odds are in their.. Lewis/Merc are not turning up and just out performing Ferrari/Vettel.. instead there are outside circumstances. Like strategy, weather, mistakes, crashes.

Look at Japan. "Clear dominance". Even though Vettel was out of position, collided with Max... that put him back not just a foot but two.

This doesn't take credit away from Lewis or Merc.. but Vettel/Ferrari had a few fingers on this season and one by one.. let go.

It is very important to remember that. When Merc have beaten Ferrari this season.. they have not just out qualified or got the results.. Ferrari/Vettel had something go against them. And to make matters worse.. they really had the car capable of it this year. If Ferrari build something even better... we would see 'dominance' level.


Jekyll and Hyde?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:31 am 
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Lewis is on the form of his life and he needed a 2011 type season to change his approach. He said recently that he was suffering with an illness during this season (could be an excuse) that will be disclosed in his autobiography so that will be interesting to see. There is hope for Vettel after this campaign.

This video shows Hamiltons 5 collisions with Massa during 2011;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MshdLhvTmoQ

On top of those 5, from memory I have Canada with JB which was a DNF. Spa where he cut back in front of the Sauber too soon - DNF. That is 8 collisions.

Schumacher also pushed him off the road at Monza, although it wasn't his fault its another incident. Did Hamilton have any others? I forgot how low the lows were in 2011, it makes the current form all the more sweet. Its also so odd that he was the man who hit 9 straight podiums from debut without a single error 4 years before 2011.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:49 am 
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Austin should have been an easy win for Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Austin should have been an easy win for Hamilton.

No it should have been an easy win for Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Austin should have been an easy win for Hamilton.

No it should have been an easy win for Vettel.


Agreed.

Then again. Ferrari are now back. They got their strategy just right. Lewis wasn't taking too many risks with his overtaking.

People are criticising him for finishing 3rd... when Ferrar/Merc and even RBR are so close to each other... when lewis only needs 5 more points to win another championship.

Shall we criticise Kimi for finally showing some form?
Shall we criticise Vettel for... well... a lot..

Funny old world isn't it. Lewis/Merc have an off race and all hell breaks loose. People are forgetting how far Lewis is with this championship. He doens't have a finger on it.. he 9 fingers on it already.. Vettel/Ferrari need a miracle.

As I said before.. one thing that went in favour of Merc was how Ferrari/Vettel imploded.. or rain went their way.. or Lewis pulled something out of the bag.. or even Bottas did some team play. Merc/Lewis have worked very hard for this.. and the one time things don't go their way.. people highly question Lewis.

It was only 6 months ago people were questioning his 'personal life style'....


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Austin should have been an easy win for Hamilton.

How so? It should have been an easy win from pole from Vettel but he earned a penalty in practice, was outqualified by a slower car and then had yet another first lap collision. Raikkonen ended up winning for the first time in ages.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:13 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Austin should have been an easy win for Hamilton.

How so? It should have been an easy win from pole from Vettel but he earned a penalty in practice, was outqualified by a slower car and then had yet another first lap collision. Raikkonen ended up winning for the first time in ages.


Wolff agrees ;) Vettels times was very quick on the softs.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/908427/1/ ... f-not-spin

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