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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Sandman, Zoue, agree to disagree. I'm having to come into this thread much too often of late

You don't have to. You choose to. I'm beginning to wonder what it is that you're so worried about. We're all adults here.

This is a thread for everyone, not just the two of you. When most of your post is detailing another user's posting style it's ceasing to be on topic. If you want to have an argument take it to PMs or Twitter. If you want to discuss this matter further take it to the feedback thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Mod Aqua wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Sandman, Zoue, agree to disagree. I'm having to come into this thread much too often of late

You don't have to. You choose to. I'm beginning to wonder what it is that you're so worried about. We're all adults here.

This is a thread for everyone, not just the two of you. When most of your post is detailing another user's posting style it's ceasing to be on topic. If you want to have an argument take it to PMs or Twitter. If you want to discuss this matter further take it to the feedback thread.

Twitter? Yikes. Ok, fair enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:27 pm 
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shay550 wrote:
JV never won a race or came close to it after 97' so that comparison was dead on arrival.

He was never in a car that could win races after '97, unless you count his brief appearance at Renault in 2004.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:51 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40


I still remember the people that sat there calling him average or "it's the car".

Love how every single one of them vanish quickly.


Name one person who has called Lewis average. However, whether you want to admit it or not, the car is the biggest factor.. For Lewis or the other drivers.

So long as that also goes for every other single driver that's ever driven in F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:57 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Nitpicking at mistakes is something you can do with any driver (but that you noticeably only seem to do with Hamilton). If you accuse Lewis of not maximizing 2007, don't you have to level the same accusation at Alonso (he was in the same car)? If you suggest he should have won the championship in 2010, don't you have to do the same for Alonso (who had a better car, a #2 driver teammate and was in control of the championship before Vettel took it off him at the end)? I'm not trying to criticize Fred either. I don't agree with that whole line of thinking. I'm just pointing out the imbalance of your assertion. Greatness isn't about mistakes or failures anyway. It's about triumphs and successes. Failure is just part of the process.

I get that you're unhappy with me for bringing up the whole team orders thing in the Hamilton thread, but you're way off base claiming I only criticize Hamilton. Don't try to turn this into some crappy Hamilton fans vs. Hamilton haters thing. I am not a fan of Hamilton, but I am not a Hamilton hater either. He is almost certainly the best driver on the grid right now, and an all-time great.

As for Alonso in 2007, of course he threw it away! It was probably his worst year in all of F1. He (and the team) also made some big mistakes in 2010. But we weren't talking about Alonso, so why would I have brought that up? My assertion was specifically on the validity of comparisons made before 2014 between Hamilton and Villeneuve. What does Alonso have to do with that?

In respect to Villenueve the comparison was made solely by what I would call serial Hamilton detractors, there was no actual validity.

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2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:00 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I used to like Jacques too. Rooted for him when he raced in the Indy 500 (I was actually there that day). The fact though, is that JV never won a race after his second season in F1. He is not an all-time great by any stretch.

And neither was Hamilton in 2013, when people were still making all those threads. I don't think the comparison was ever completely fair, but it wasn't absurd at the time - both were 1-time WDCs whom many felt should have won more.

Seriously even after he got beat by Button, Massa and replaced by Kubica, did he ever win a race after his title winning year?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:04 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Good metaphor for the 2018 season. :lol:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/

Sebastian working too hard and Lewis just cruising on by!!! Love the smug look on Lewis face just before the pass.

Yeah that's been posted before and happened long before the title looked to be in the bag, an epitaph of things to come. :)

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:06 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)



Who on Earth (apart from Verstappen Sr. maybe) is calling Max "a great"??????

He is a future star, he has the potential to be a WDC, even a multi one, but "a great"??? I have never seen anyone calling him that.

I have seen the term used on here.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:09 am 
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Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

2018, he's won easily in not the best car.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:13 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it

That's a lopsided statement. Last year things were relatively even up to the point when the title was sewn up. Overaall, Mercedes had the better car on the year in 2017 but that was only due to them pulling away in the final part of the year (after Ferrari had already bottled it). You can suggest that the relative edge in qualifying last year might have been the difference but this year, the shoe was on the other foot. He has been at a disadvantage up to this point. You just can't be objective can you?

It's not a lopsided statement, just one that you don't disagree with.

It takes a special kind of paranoia to see controversy even when I'm paying the guy a complement. I've said I'm tempted to say this is Hamilton's best WDC, which is high praise indeed, yet all you see is a lack of objectivity? Words fail me. :uhoh:

I don't agree with your assessment that Hamilton has been at any kind of disadvantage this year. I think they've been fairly even. We've been through this and I'm happy to simply disagree but it seems you cannot accept someone having a different opinion to your own. But the fact that you'd try to make a big deal out of it even when it's clear that I'm trying to say something nice about him is just pathetic

A different informed opinion based on facts is something I welcome. An assertion that ignores facts that have been presented to you multiple times becomes a bit of an annoyance...

As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:48 am 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I'm inclined to agree. He's in a rich period right now in terms of form and opportunity and though he did well in 2017, I'd say he's done better still in 2018. How long can he keep it up? It's no trivial matter to sustain a longer period of such form.

Yes I agree as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:19 am 
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TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)



Who on Earth (apart from Verstappen Sr. maybe) is calling Max "a great"??????

He is a future star, he has the potential to be a WDC, even a multi one, but "a great"??? I have never seen anyone calling him that.

I have seen the term used on here.

Really?

Ok, can you point me to the right direction? I need to use the ignore button on that poster!!!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)



Who on Earth (apart from Verstappen Sr. maybe) is calling Max "a great"??????

He is a future star, he has the potential to be a WDC, even a multi one, but "a great"??? I have never seen anyone calling him that.

I have seen the term used on here.

Really?

Ok, can you point me to the right direction? I need to use the ignore button on that poster!!!!!


Oh I can help you there.

My vote for the " Most absurd post of the year" award.

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15022&p
ReserviorDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:42 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I'm inclined to agree. He's in a rich period right now in terms of form and opportunity and though he did well in 2017, I'd say he's done better still in 2018. How long can he keep it up? It's no trivial matter to sustain a longer period of such form.

Yes I agree as well.

Me too. This year the cars have been overall fairly equal compared to the recent past. Ferrari going to the long wheel design and their stronger power unit gave them the upper hand most of the year (albeit not by much in my opinion, they are faster in the straights but seem slower in the corners), so it really accentuated the drivers' skills. Bottas last year finished 100 points ahead of Kimi, this year they are separated by 10 points. Not the best indication obviously, but quite telling of how the year went so far. Seb dropped the ball way too often and this is what robbed us of a great showdown. Lewis got a shaky start, but he got over it and he has delivered.

The whole point is that car and driver are a package. As far as packages go then, Seb-Fer < Lew-Mer so far and this is what matters. Lewis has been relentless this year, the closest any driver has reminded me of MS (quite telling that he is the one driver in clear line of breaking his records), so with the cars looking close, it's Lewis's driving that has made the difference.

Some people seem hell bent to big Lewis's achievement even more, pointing to the car disadvantage. I'm not convinced about the amount of the disadvantage that the Merc had this year. A stronger engine is good to have, but it is not the only thing that matters in F1. Otherwise Red Bull had no business winning races or getting podiums on merit, while Williams should have been at least ahead of the Renault powered cars. Mercedes may lack a bit in the power sector, but they have had the best pit stops, strategy calls, one of the best aero packages and a faultless driver. Who's at a disadvantage then?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:44 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)



Who on Earth (apart from Verstappen Sr. maybe) is calling Max "a great"??????

He is a future star, he has the potential to be a WDC, even a multi one, but "a great"??? I have never seen anyone calling him that.

I have seen the term used on here.

Really?

Ok, can you point me to the right direction? I need to use the ignore button on that poster!!!!!


Oh I can help you there.

My vote for the " Most absurd post of the year" award.

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15022&p
ReserviorDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.


Dammit!!!!!

I like ReservoirDog's posts normally. Thanks for opening my eyes though, I really thought that no one called him that...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers


So with the results being so close as to surely be within the margin of error, Seb and Kimi have between them comprehensively blown Ferrari's chances of a WCC and WDC when provided with capable machinery. Kimi is off next year already, and I'd say Seb's future hangs on his performance next year. Another poor year and I can see him disappearing into obscurity, either through retirement or a lower team.

I guess a question still remaining though is how we apportion the blame between drivers and team strategy errors. Seems like they are both giving it a pretty good go to win that one.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:21 am 
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TedStriker wrote:
Zoue wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers


So with the results being so close as to surely be within the margin of error, Seb and Kimi have between them comprehensively blown Ferrari's chances of a WCC and WDC when provided with capable machinery. Kimi is off next year already, and I'd say Seb's future hangs on his performance next year. Another poor year and I can see him disappearing into obscurity, either through retirement or a lower team.

I guess a question still remaining though is how we apportion the blame between drivers and team strategy errors. Seems like they are both giving it a pretty good go to win that one.


Dunno, Kimi has been pulling this trick off for nearly a decade now and is still in a top team!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:45 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
Zoue wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers


So with the results being so close as to surely be within the margin of error, Seb and Kimi have between them comprehensively blown Ferrari's chances of a WCC and WDC when provided with capable machinery. Kimi is off next year already, and I'd say Seb's future hangs on his performance next year. Another poor year and I can see him disappearing into obscurity, either through retirement or a lower team.

I guess a question still remaining though is how we apportion the blame between drivers and team strategy errors. Seems like they are both giving it a pretty good go to win that one.


Dunno, Kimi has been pulling this trick off for nearly a decade now and is still in a top team!


I could be wrong, but think the BiB was referring to Vettel's performance next year, not Kimi. I think it is fair to say that if Vettel struggles vs Leclerc next year/keeps making mistakes then he won't be at Ferrari beyond the end of his current contract.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:56 am 
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TedStriker wrote:
Zoue wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers


So with the results being so close as to surely be within the margin of error, Seb and Kimi have between them comprehensively blown Ferrari's chances of a WCC and WDC when provided with capable machinery. Kimi is off next year already, and I'd say Seb's future hangs on his performance next year. Another poor year and I can see him disappearing into obscurity, either through retirement or a lower team.

I guess a question still remaining though is how we apportion the blame between drivers and team strategy errors. Seems like they are both giving it a pretty good go to win that one.



There always seems to be the one new thread/topic that lasts pretty much through the off season; and this is probably it if as expected Mercedes/Hamilton win the championships. Where do Ferrari go from here? Will they pull together or is there some blood letting to do? Jock Clear has a demotion back to Race Engineer already announced (although that may be a shrewd move); and I believe it was Ted saying that the finger is already pointing at Binotto. Or given the type of Ferrari failure; easily remedied errors, will they come back next year with a bang?

Meanwhile us Hamilton fans can enjoy ourselves on this thread during the off season blowing smoke up Hamilton's backside. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:20 am 
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TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

It's the overall performance of the car

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:21 am 
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Zoue wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As an arbitrator let's see what AMUS say

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... efore_the/


Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers

Yep

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:25 am 
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Posts: 28701
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)



Who on Earth (apart from Verstappen Sr. maybe) is calling Max "a great"??????

He is a future star, he has the potential to be a WDC, even a multi one, but "a great"??? I have never seen anyone calling him that.

I have seen the term used on here.

Really?

Ok, can you point me to the right direction? I need to use the ignore button on that poster!!!!!


Oh I can help you there.

My vote for the " Most absurd post of the year" award.

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15022&p
ReserviorDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

That would be the post, good find. :thumbup:

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:30 am 
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Posts: 28701
Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I'm inclined to agree. He's in a rich period right now in terms of form and opportunity and though he did well in 2017, I'd say he's done better still in 2018. How long can he keep it up? It's no trivial matter to sustain a longer period of such form.

Yes I agree as well.

Me too. This year the cars have been overall fairly equal compared to the recent past. Ferrari going to the long wheel design and their stronger power unit gave them the upper hand most of the year (albeit not by much in my opinion, they are faster in the straights but seem slower in the corners), so it really accentuated the drivers' skills. Bottas last year finished 100 points ahead of Kimi, this year they are separated by 10 points. Not the best indication obviously, but quite telling of how the year went so far. Seb dropped the ball way too often and this is what robbed us of a great showdown. Lewis got a shaky start, but he got over it and he has delivered.

The whole point is that car and driver are a package. As far as packages go then, Seb-Fer < Lew-Mer so far and this is what matters. Lewis has been relentless this year, the closest any driver has reminded me of MS (quite telling that he is the one driver in clear line of breaking his records), so with the cars looking close, it's Lewis's driving that has made the difference.

Some people seem hell bent to big Lewis's achievement even more, pointing to the car disadvantage. I'm not convinced about the amount of the disadvantage that the Merc had this year. A stronger engine is good to have, but it is not the only thing that matters in F1. Otherwise Red Bull had no business winning races or getting podiums on merit, while Williams should have been at least ahead of the Renault powered cars. Mercedes may lack a bit in the power sector, but they have had the best pit stops, strategy calls, one of the best aero packages and a faultless driver. Who's at a disadvantage then?

Last year we had to hear relentless moaning about the Mercedes power advantage, this year such a thing is no real advantage.

Who is at a disadvantage, by your reasoning both Ferrari in having Vettel and Vettel in having Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:32 am 
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pokerman wrote:
That would be the post, good find. :thumbup:


Believe me Poker it's one I could hardly forget

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:34 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That would be the post, good find. :thumbup:


Believe me Poker it's one I could hardly forget

Obviously me too as I pulled him up for it. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:37 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:47 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

I wish AMUS had also done a power rating of the cars for 2017.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.

To an extent this is how you rate the drivers, if you believe Vettel is as fast over 1 lap as Hamilton, Vettel beat Bottas quite easily in qualifying last year, this year Ferrari had the car to have the most poles, this year at times Hamilton has been making the difference, this is what the publications see as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

I wish AMUS had also done a power rating of the cars for 2017.


You would need to go back to each race weekend and see what the power ranking was which would take a while, I'm not 100% sure and i could be wrong but i thought they had Ferrari ahead by Singapore then Merc pulled away.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:46 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

I wish AMUS had also done a power rating of the cars for 2017.


You would need to go back to each race weekend and see what the power ranking was which would take a while, I'm not 100% sure and i could be wrong but i thought they had Ferrari ahead by Singapore then Merc pulled away.

You mean on their site?

Ferrari ahead by Singapore, yet history is rewritten that Mercedes stormed the season.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:11 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
Zoue wrote:
TedStriker wrote:

Is that just ranking the power unit or the car overall?

I think, from what I can gather, that this is supposed to rank the car independent of the drivers


So with the results being so close as to surely be within the margin of error, Seb and Kimi have between them comprehensively blown Ferrari's chances of a WCC and WDC when provided with capable machinery. Kimi is off next year already, and I'd say Seb's future hangs on his performance next year. Another poor year and I can see him disappearing into obscurity, either through retirement or a lower team.

I guess a question still remaining though is how we apportion the blame between drivers and team strategy errors. Seems like they are both giving it a pretty good go to win that one.


Dunno, Kimi has been pulling this trick off for nearly a decade now and is still in a top team!


I could be wrong, but think the BiB was referring to Vettel's performance next year, not Kimi. I think it is fair to say that if Vettel struggles vs Leclerc next year/keeps making mistakes then he won't be at Ferrari beyond the end of his current contract.

Oh I know ,I am just jesting. That he will not necessarily go, Kimi has been under performing at Ferrari for so long and got away with it!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

I wish AMUS had also done a power rating of the cars for 2017.


You would need to go back to each race weekend and see what the power ranking was which would take a while, I'm not 100% sure and i could be wrong but i thought they had Ferrari ahead by Singapore then Merc pulled away.

You mean on their site?

Ferrari ahead by Singapore, yet history is rewritten that Mercedes stormed the season.


Strong words for something that F1_Ernie said he can't remember...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Oh I know ,I am just jesting. That he will not necessarily go, Kimi has been under performing at Ferrari for so long and got away with it!


Oops :blush: apologies.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I'm inclined to agree. He's in a rich period right now in terms of form and opportunity and though he did well in 2017, I'd say he's done better still in 2018. How long can he keep it up? It's no trivial matter to sustain a longer period of such form.

Yes I agree as well.

Me too. This year the cars have been overall fairly equal compared to the recent past. Ferrari going to the long wheel design and their stronger power unit gave them the upper hand most of the year (albeit not by much in my opinion, they are faster in the straights but seem slower in the corners), so it really accentuated the drivers' skills. Bottas last year finished 100 points ahead of Kimi, this year they are separated by 10 points. Not the best indication obviously, but quite telling of how the year went so far. Seb dropped the ball way too often and this is what robbed us of a great showdown. Lewis got a shaky start, but he got over it and he has delivered.

The whole point is that car and driver are a package. As far as packages go then, Seb-Fer < Lew-Mer so far and this is what matters. Lewis has been relentless this year, the closest any driver has reminded me of MS (quite telling that he is the one driver in clear line of breaking his records), so with the cars looking close, it's Lewis's driving that has made the difference.

Some people seem hell bent to big Lewis's achievement even more, pointing to the car disadvantage. I'm not convinced about the amount of the disadvantage that the Merc had this year. A stronger engine is good to have, but it is not the only thing that matters in F1. Otherwise Red Bull had no business winning races or getting podiums on merit, while Williams should have been at least ahead of the Renault powered cars. Mercedes may lack a bit in the power sector, but they have had the best pit stops, strategy calls, one of the best aero packages and a faultless driver. Who's at a disadvantage then?

Last year we had to hear relentless moaning about the Mercedes power advantage, this year such a thing is no real advantage.

Who is at a disadvantage, by your reasoning both Ferrari in having Vettel and Vettel in having Ferrari.


Relentless moaning??? In contrast, we have had to hear you moaning about everything that Ferrari brought to the table, from burning oil, to every little rumour in the paddock that backed whatever your argument was. But there is no point in any discussion when you start like that.

Now, if you remember the FIA had this "engine power convergence" meeting where they tested the engines and got them to be by 0.3 secs of within each other, or something along these lines. So where did you hear the relentless moaning about their engine's power advantage? Stop talking nonsense please. Last year the engines' power levels started to converge and Mercedes lost their power advantage that they held the previous 3 years.

Merc had probably still the strongest power unit last year, but also sported the longest wheelbase. They dominated the faster circuits, while Ferrari was faster in the slower, high downforce ones. Ferrari caught up due to the rule changes, the Merc was very temperamental with finding the tire sweetspot (remember they called it a diva). Finally we had a closer fight.

This year both cars have the longer wheelbase and the Ferrari has had the better engine advances. It is why I said it is easier to compare them this year. What is so difficult to understand?


To answer your final question, it is easy; they have both let each other down. Seeing that they lost races from both strategy AND driver errors. So what's your point really?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:54 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Oh I know ,I am just jesting. That he will not necessarily go, Kimi has been under performing at Ferrari for so long and got away with it!


Oops :blush: apologies.


No reason to apologise, maybe I wasn't clear!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Posts: 570
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I disagree. Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari won 5 races and at times made it look easy. You don't win 5 races when the other guy has a clear better car (not unless they made mistakes galore). Not forgetting the times when Vettel could have won if he and Ferrari didn't make mistakes....

2017 and 2018 are very similar. Some cars suit one track and vice versa for the others. This is the 2nd year where Ferrari have had a race winning car and Merc/Lewis have made the least mistakes.

I wish AMUS had also done a power rating of the cars for 2017.


You would need to go back to each race weekend and see what the power ranking was which would take a while, I'm not 100% sure and i could be wrong but i thought they had Ferrari ahead by Singapore then Merc pulled away.


I did keep my own rough log of their power rankings from last year. It's a bit long winded, but I'll just copy paste it here. The rankings have Ferrari & Mercedes almost equal.


Australia https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lien-2017/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Williams
Toro Rosso
Force India
HaasF1
Renault
Sauber
McLaren

China https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... hina-2017/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Toro Rosso
HaasF1
Force India
Williams
Renault
McLaren
Sauber

Bahrain https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -nummer-1/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Williams
Force India
HaasF1
Renault
Toro Rosso
Sauber
McLaren

Russia https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... eiter-top/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Williams
Force India
Renault
Toro Rosso
HaasF1
McLaren
Sauber

Spain https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... app-vorne/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Force India
Toro Rosso
Williams
Renault
HaasF1
Sauber
McLaren

Monaco https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rcedes-ab/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Toro Rosso
Force India
HaasF1
Williams
McLaren
Renault
Sauber

Canada https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... des-vorne/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Force India
Williams
Renault
McLaren
Toro Rosso
HaasF1
Sauber

Azerbaijan https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... r-ranking/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Williams
Foce India
McLaren
HaasF1
Toro Rosso
Renault
Sauber


Austria https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-ferrari/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Force India
HaasF1
Williams
McLaren
Toro Rosso
Renault
Sauber

GB https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ari-davon/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Force India
Renault
Williams
McLaren
HaasF1
Toro Rosso
Sauber

Hungary https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
McLaren
Renault
Force India
Toro Rosso
HaasF1
Williams F1
Sauber

Belgium https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rari-nr-1/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Renault
Force India
Haas F1
Toro Rosso
McLaren
Williams
Sauber

Italy https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... er-spitze/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Force India
Williams
Haas F1
Toro Rosso
Renault
McLaren
Sauber

Singapore https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lage-vorn/
Ferrari
Mercedes
Red Bull
Renault
McLaren
Force India
Toro Rosso
Williams
Haas F1
Sauber

Malaysia https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... formcheck/
Ferrari
Red Bull
Mercedes
Force India
McLaren
Williams
Toro Rosso
Renault
HaasF1
Sauber

Japan https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... apan-2017/
Mercedes
Red Bull
Ferrari
Force India
HaasF1
Williams
McLaren
Renault
Toro Rosso
Sauber

USA https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... uf-rang-2/
Mercedes
Red Bull
Ferrari
Force India
Renault
McLaren
Williams
Toro Rosso
HaasF1
Sauber

Mexico https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-platz-1/
Red Bull
Mercedes
Ferrari
Force India
Williams
McLaren
Renault
HaasF1
Toro Rosso
Sauber

Brazil https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Force India
Williams
McLaren
Renault
Toro Rosso
HaasF1
Sauber

Abu Dhabi https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... habi-2017/
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Force India
Renault
McLaren
Williams
HaasF1
Toro Rosso
Sauber

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Nice work aice :thumbup:

So including Singapore they had the scores 9-5 to Ferrari, I was right in the end but I wasn't sure.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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