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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:04 am 
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Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
How Mercedes reacts to the 2019 rule change will determine if Hamilton has a good shot at breaking or equalling all of Schumachers records.

80 poles today.
70 vs 91 wins with Schumacher.

If he can get 3 more wins this season, he needs one more dominant year (10+ wins) then he is in striking distance of the win total. If Mercedes produce another 2014-2016 car, I sense he will lose less wins to Bottas than he did Nico. The Mercedes of the last few races is starting to look more like those dominant cars.


Are the rule changes for 2019 that much different?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:18 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
How Mercedes reacts to the 2019 rule change will determine if Hamilton has a good shot at breaking or equalling all of Schumachers records.

80 poles today.
70 vs 91 wins with Schumacher.

If he can get 3 more wins this season, he needs one more dominant year (10+ wins) then he is in striking distance of the win total. If Mercedes produce another 2014-2016 car, I sense he will lose less wins to Bottas than he did Nico. The Mercedes of the last few races is starting to look more like those dominant cars.


Are the rule changes for 2019 that much different?

They are if you are a team at the back promising new potential new sponsors you're going to make a massive leap forwards, but they are no 2016 to 2017.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:58 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
How Mercedes reacts to the 2019 rule change will determine if Hamilton has a good shot at breaking or equalling all of Schumachers records.

80 poles today.
70 vs 91 wins with Schumacher.

If he can get 3 more wins this season, he needs one more dominant year (10+ wins) then he is in striking distance of the win total. If Mercedes produce another 2014-2016 car, I sense he will lose less wins to Bottas than he did Nico. The Mercedes of the last few races is starting to look more like those dominant cars.


Are the rule changes for 2019 that much different?

They are if you are a team at the back promising new potential new sponsors you're going to make a massive leap forwards, but they are no 2016 to 2017.


Thanks, so more of the same would be my guess


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:52 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
How Mercedes reacts to the 2019 rule change will determine if Hamilton has a good shot at breaking or equalling all of Schumachers records.

80 poles today.
70 vs 91 wins with Schumacher.

If he can get 3 more wins this season, he needs one more dominant year (10+ wins) then he is in striking distance of the win total. If Mercedes produce another 2014-2016 car, I sense he will lose less wins to Bottas than he did Nico. The Mercedes of the last few races is starting to look more like those dominant cars.


Are the rule changes for 2019 that much different?

They are if you are a team at the back promising new potential new sponsors you're going to make a massive leap forwards, but they are no 2016 to 2017.


Thanks, so more of the same would be my guess

The main thing are the changes to the front wing, and the front wing does dictate your whole aero package, so it isn't a trivial change. But it's unlikely to radically change the order, particularly as Merc and Ferrari look unlikely to be developing past Austin.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:48 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40

Nice symmetry. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:38 pm 
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It surprises me a bit that Hamilton only has 40 fastest laps (out of 224 races, 18%) but I guess that's partly down to the fact that the best way to get a fastest lap now is to be on the softest tyre towards the end of the race.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:11 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
It surprises me a bit that Hamilton only has 40 fastest laps (out of 224 races, 18%) but I guess that's partly down to the fact that the best way to get a fastest lap now is to be on the softest tyre towards the end of the race.


No reward for it really, and plenty to lose for the frontrunners if you stack it trying to get the FL while out in front.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:39 pm 
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F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40


I still remember the people that sat there calling him average or "it's the car".

Love how every single one of them vanish quickly.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:40 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
It surprises me a bit that Hamilton only has 40 fastest laps (out of 224 races, 18%) but I guess that's partly down to the fact that the best way to get a fastest lap now is to be on the softest tyre towards the end of the race.


Plus take a heavy risk on the last few laps.. which Hamilton isn't going to do... unless a position is up for grabs.

As much as Lewis doesn't like to talk about the title.. he is thinking about it and has been all season. It's why he is leading it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40


I still remember the people that sat there calling him average or "it's the car".

Love how every single one of them vanish quickly.

who's called him average?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40


I still remember the people that sat there calling him average or "it's the car".

Love how every single one of them vanish quickly.


Nobodies ever called Hamilton "average".


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40


I still remember the people that sat there calling him average or "it's the car".

Love how every single one of them vanish quickly.


Nobodies ever called Hamilton "average".


You remember every negative Hamilton post? That must be thousands!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:27 pm 
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shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


That is true in fairness.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:17 pm 
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shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.

And back when they were both 1-time WDCs, it made some sense. There was plenty of reason to say that Hamilton could and should have been more than a 1-time WDC. Or would you disagree with that?

Hamilton is a great of the sport - but he's not perfect, and he will always have not maximized his first few years in the sport. 2007 he should have won, 2010 he had a chance, and in 2011 he was just bad. He's not perfect.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
F1Tyrant wrote:
Lewis Hamilton's statistics are thing of beauty after his lap at Suzuka.

Poles - 80
Wins - 70
Podiums - 130
Fastest Laps - 40


I still remember the people that sat there calling him average or "it's the car".

Love how every single one of them vanish quickly.


Name one person who has called Lewis average. However, whether you want to admit it or not, the car is the biggest factor.. For Lewis or the other drivers.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:45 pm 
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You’re right Blake that the car is the biggest factor but it’s not that simply when it’s close. As shown by Seb in the middle of the season Ferrari had the fastest car yet he didn’t maximise its potential and lost lots of points. He’s been playing catch up and that’s breed more mistakes from him. I’ll admit these last few races Merc have found something and have the better car now but having the fastest car doesn’t mean you automatically win


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:38 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.

And back when they were both 1-time WDCs, it made some sense. There was plenty of reason to say that Hamilton could and should have been more than a 1-time WDC. Or would you disagree with that?

Hamilton is a great of the sport - but he's not perfect, and he will always have not maximized his first few years in the sport. 2007 he should have won, 2010 he had a chance, and in 2011 he was just bad. He's not perfect.

No one is perfect. All of the greats have had both successes and failures. All of them have had seasons where they have struggled or times where they had a title shot but came up short. The idea that Lewis didn't maximize his first few years is a lopsided and uneven way of assessing his career. 2007 was his rookie season. 2010 was a year where he had the third best car and was only in the championship picture because of mistakes made by his rivals.

Nitpicking at mistakes is something you can do with any driver (but that you noticeably only seem to do with Hamilton). If you accuse Lewis of not maximizing 2007, don't you have to level the same accusation at Alonso (he was in the same car)? If you suggest he should have won the championship in 2010, don't you have to do the same for Alonso (who had a better car, a #2 driver teammate and was in control of the championship before Vettel took it off him at the end)? I'm not trying to criticize Fred either. I don't agree with that whole line of thinking. I'm just pointing out the imbalance of your assertion. Greatness isn't about mistakes or failures anyway. It's about triumphs and successes. Failure is just part of the process.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:26 pm 
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and here we go again.
;)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:37 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Nitpicking at mistakes is something you can do with any driver (but that you noticeably only seem to do with Hamilton). If you accuse Lewis of not maximizing 2007, don't you have to level the same accusation at Alonso (he was in the same car)? If you suggest he should have won the championship in 2010, don't you have to do the same for Alonso (who had a better car, a #2 driver teammate and was in control of the championship before Vettel took it off him at the end)? I'm not trying to criticize Fred either. I don't agree with that whole line of thinking. I'm just pointing out the imbalance of your assertion. Greatness isn't about mistakes or failures anyway. It's about triumphs and successes. Failure is just part of the process.

I get that you're unhappy with me for bringing up the whole team orders thing in the Hamilton thread, but you're way off base claiming I only criticize Hamilton. Don't try to turn this into some crappy Hamilton fans vs. Hamilton haters thing. I am not a fan of Hamilton, but I am not a Hamilton hater either. He is almost certainly the best driver on the grid right now, and an all-time great.

As for Alonso in 2007, of course he threw it away! It was probably his worst year in all of F1. He (and the team) also made some big mistakes in 2010. But we weren't talking about Alonso, so why would I have brought that up? My assertion was specifically on the validity of comparisons made before 2014 between Hamilton and Villeneuve. What does Alonso have to do with that?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:59 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Nitpicking at mistakes is something you can do with any driver (but that you noticeably only seem to do with Hamilton). If you accuse Lewis of not maximizing 2007, don't you have to level the same accusation at Alonso (he was in the same car)? If you suggest he should have won the championship in 2010, don't you have to do the same for Alonso (who had a better car, a #2 driver teammate and was in control of the championship before Vettel took it off him at the end)? I'm not trying to criticize Fred either. I don't agree with that whole line of thinking. I'm just pointing out the imbalance of your assertion. Greatness isn't about mistakes or failures anyway. It's about triumphs and successes. Failure is just part of the process.

I get that you're unhappy with me for bringing up the whole team orders thing in the Hamilton thread, but you're way off base claiming I only criticize Hamilton. Don't try to turn this into some crappy Hamilton fans vs. Hamilton haters thing. I am not a fan of Hamilton, but I am not a Hamilton hater either. He is almost certainly the best driver on the grid right now, and an all-time great.

As for Alonso in 2007, of course he threw it away! It was probably his worst year in all of F1. He (and the team) also made some big mistakes in 2010. But we weren't talking about Alonso, so why would I have brought that up? My assertion was specifically on the validity of comparisons made before 2014 between Hamilton and Villeneuve. What does Alonso have to do with that?

Fair enough. Let's just leave that alone then. Though I have to say that Alonso's 2007 was far from his worst year. 2010 was a worse year as was 2004.

I would say though that the people who compared Hamilton to JV were kidding themselves. JV was smoked by Damon Hill as a rookie. Hamilton bested Alonso as a rookie. The comparison should end there.

I used to like Jacques too. Rooted for him when he raced in the Indy 500 (I was actually there that day). The fact though, is that JV never won a race after his second season in F1. He is not an all-time great by any stretch.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:59 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I used to like Jacques too. Rooted for him when he raced in the Indy 500 (I was actually there that day). The fact though, is that JV never won a race after his second season in F1. He is not an all-time great by any stretch.

And neither was Hamilton in 2013, when people were still making all those threads. I don't think the comparison was ever completely fair, but it wasn't absurd at the time - both were 1-time WDCs whom many felt should have won more.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I used to like Jacques too. Rooted for him when he raced in the Indy 500 (I was actually there that day). The fact though, is that JV never won a race after his second season in F1. He is not an all-time great by any stretch.

And neither was Hamilton in 2013, when people were still making all those threads. I don't think the comparison was ever completely fair, but it wasn't absurd at the time - both were 1-time WDCs whom many felt should have won more.

I disagree with you completely. No one felt JV "should have won more" and Hamilton was already considered great in 2013 (though he had yet to achieve what he has since). The difference between them was obvious to anyone who knew what they were talking about.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Nobody thought JV should have won more titles. He is regularly described as the worst or one of the worst WDC of the last 30-40 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Nobody thought JV should have won more titles. He is regularly described as the worst or one of the worst WDC of the last 30-40 years.


Which was the very reason that certain posters at the time were comparing the two. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. As for the Hamilton 'average' comment; there are approx 4,000 posts containing 'Hamilton' and 'average'. Having just checked 4 of the 250 pages containing those two phrases, Massa and Rubens are definitely average. But it seems Button and Schumacher are also average. So not that bad a company for Hamilton to keep. I'll take average for Hamilton if that means he is comparable to MS. (If indeed the 'average' phrase was used.) So far all I can find is Hamilton is 'merely good' after becoming a 3 x WDC.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:41 pm 
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JV never won a race or came close to it after 97' so that comparison was dead on arrival.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:51 am 
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Good metaphor for the 2018 season. :lol:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/

Sebastian working too hard and Lewis just cruising on by!!! Love the smug look on Lewis face just before the pass.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:26 am 
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shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:42 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.


It is telling that people are already calling Verstappen a "great" when he has won nothing at to this day would be incapable of repeating Lewis's first season with his first laps antics.

If you gave Lewis statistics to Alonso or Verstappen they would be called the bestestestest of the universe but those belong to Hamilton woops.. Just keep laughing my friend and enjoy the ride.. I certainly do and I am often amused by how wrong people can get it. 8)



Who on Earth (apart from Verstappen Sr. maybe) is calling Max "a great"??????

He is a future star, he has the potential to be a WDC, even a multi one, but "a great"??? I have never seen anyone calling him that.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
shay550 wrote:
Until 2014 there would be a thread on this forum every year comparing Hamilton’s career to Jacques Villeneuve.

And back when they were both 1-time WDCs, it made some sense. There was plenty of reason to say that Hamilton could and should have been more than a 1-time WDC. Or would you disagree with that?

Hamilton is a great of the sport - but he's not perfect, and he will always have not maximized his first few years in the sport. 2007 he should have won, 2010 he had a chance, and in 2011 he was just bad. He's not perfect.


Laughable.

No driver is perfect.. and I've yet to see a single fan claim he is.. or any driver on the grid.. Fernando Alonso is considered to be the best rounded driver - he's made mistakes this season and made some in Japan. 2007 lewis should have won? while having again the best driver on the grid as a team mate and double champion. While competing with a race winning Ferrari drivers? He was a Rookie with no experience of F1. In the first phase of the year he was quite consistent in getting results. The team also made mistakes that year.

Lewis in his first season should have finished 4th while facing a double champ and two experienced Ferrari drivers. It was a very close season that year where like 2018 - a single mistake or bad call lost you the race. Do you consider Massa a better driver than Alonso/Lewis? when Massa was out performing the Mclaren drivers in a Ferrari.. would you say Alonso could have done better in the Ferrari? I'd say so. Alonso/Massa paired up and it was almost a whitewash in Fernandos favour

Feels like you are bashing Lewis Hamilton for the sake of it. He's had a single poor season in his career where he made a ton of mistakes. Every driver has an off one. As for 2010... he won 3 races in the questionably 2nd/3rd best car. While Ferrari had a clear number 1 (as I mentioned before about Alonso/Massa pairing). Lewis had to contend with a race performing Button as a team mate.

You look at Ferrari/Vettel this year. Kimi has rarely challenged Vettel but Ferrari have not made team orders. Funny mention this weekend that Kimi would refuse team orders. Also proved by Kimi asking the question is it a team order some time ago. Vettel has also had team mistakes and his own.

If Vettel was made a clear number 1 it would make a difference. Maybe not a huge one but I'd say about 20 points in his favour.

2007 - If Mclaren made a clear number 1 either way.. they would probably have won 2007. Problem is though.. there was no clear number 1.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


2018 (if/when he wins it)
2017
2014
2015
2008

2008 is hard to judge because he was excellent at some races but also made quite a few mistakes. The mistakes is why I have put it bottom. What do others think?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it

That's a lopsided statement. Last year things were relatively even up to the point when the title was sewn up. Overaall, Mercedes had the better car on the year in 2017 but that was only due to them pulling away in the final part of the year (after Ferrari had already bottled it). You can suggest that the relative edge in qualifying last year might have been the difference but this year, the shoe was on the other foot. He has been at a disadvantage up to this point. You just can't be objective can you?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it

That's a lopsided statement. Last year things were relatively even up to the point when the title was sewn up. Overaall, Mercedes had the better car on the year in 2017 but that was only due to them pulling away in the final part of the year (after Ferrari had already bottled it). You can suggest that the relative edge in qualifying last year might have been the difference but this year, the shoe was on the other foot. He has been at a disadvantage up to this point. You just can't be objective can you?

It's not a lopsided statement, just one that you don't disagree with.

It takes a special kind of paranoia to see controversy even when I'm paying the guy a complement. I've said I'm tempted to say this is Hamilton's best WDC, which is high praise indeed, yet all you see is a lack of objectivity? Words fail me. :uhoh:

I don't agree with your assessment that Hamilton has been at any kind of disadvantage this year. I think they've been fairly even. We've been through this and I'm happy to simply disagree but it seems you cannot accept someone having a different opinion to your own. But the fact that you'd try to make a big deal out of it even when it's clear that I'm trying to say something nice about him is just pathetic


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it

That's a lopsided statement. Last year things were relatively even up to the point when the title was sewn up. Overaall, Mercedes had the better car on the year in 2017 but that was only due to them pulling away in the final part of the year (after Ferrari had already bottled it). You can suggest that the relative edge in qualifying last year might have been the difference but this year, the shoe was on the other foot. He has been at a disadvantage up to this point. You just can't be objective can you?

It's not a lopsided statement, just one that you don't disagree with.

It takes a special kind of paranoia to see controversy even when I'm paying the guy a complement. I've said I'm tempted to say this is Hamilton's best WDC, which is high praise indeed, yet all you see is a lack of objectivity? Words fail me. :uhoh:

I don't agree with your assessment that Hamilton has been at any kind of disadvantage this year. I think they've been fairly even. We've been through this and I'm happy to simply disagree but it seems you cannot accept someone having a different opinion to your own. But the fact that you'd try to make a big deal out of it even when it's clear that I'm trying to say something nice about him is just pathetic

A different informed opinion based on facts is something I welcome. An assertion that ignores facts that have been presented to you multiple times becomes a bit of an annoyance...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Up to this point, in which year was Lewis Hamilton better out of 2017 and 2018?

I think last year he had a clear car advantage but this year he was fighting on equal terms for the most part, so on that basis I'd say he's been better this year. I'm tempted to say this has been his best WDC as it was against very strong opposition and he nailed it


I'm inclined to agree. He's in a rich period right now in terms of form and opportunity and though he did well in 2017, I'd say he's done better still in 2018. How long can he keep it up? It's no trivial matter to sustain a longer period of such form.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Sandman, Zoue, agree to disagree. I'm having to come into this thread much too often of late

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:43 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Sandman, Zoue, agree to disagree. I'm having to come into this thread much too often of late

You don't have to. You choose to. I'm beginning to wonder what it is that you're so worried about. We're all adults here.


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