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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:30 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Points aren’t performance... Albon would have out scored Max if not for Brazil crash with Hamilton I believe. So that tells you everything about points.

But yes Italy sums it up best. Hamilton battling for the win all race with Bottas a distant 3rd all race, but through pushing the limits of his tyres to win and getting pushed off track it ended Bottas P2 and Hamilton P3. Likewise Singapore, Hamilton in for the win if they pit him at the right time but it ends P4 and P5 due to poor strategy. Spa, again Hamilton fighting for win and Bottas a distant 3rd.

Bottas has been in the fight for the win 2 times in 9 races. Hamilton 9 out of 9, I think he lead all 9 races at some point. In 6-7 of those 9 races, there was another car between Bottas and Hamilton or a large gap.



I may be the opposite, but you do seem a bit like you really try to point out Bottas's negatives at times. And not always correctly. Italy, a distant 3rd ALL race? 11 laps in he still was a fraction of a second off getting DRS from Hamilton. He didn't drop back any more that 2 seconds in this stint. As you point out Hamilton has often led a race (which isn't always down to him earning the position). Well Bottas was leading it for a few laps in this case. When he pitted, he was 8 seconds behind Hamilton in 4th, not 3rd. By the time he was 3rd, it dropped to 5 seconds when Ricciardo pitted during the VSC. Meanwhile, just before this, Bottas had done fastest lap. Within 10 laps Bottas had caught and passed Hamilton. Then spent the next 11 laps ahead.

You saying Bottas was a distant 3rd all race really is not accurate.

I am fully aware Hamilton likely will have had had more pace in hand and was stuck behind Leclerc, but as other drivers like Verstappen got away with a warning at this track last year, maybe it is fair that Leclerc got away with similar first time he does it. Bottas may also have had a slightly better strategy, but he made it work pretty well and got a better result than Hamilton. You are making him look worse than he was that race. Given that Hamilton was stuck behind Leclerc, all we actually know is that Bottas could keep up with Hamilton in the 1st stint, and caught up and got by in the 2nd stint. I think this is a good enough case for me to make a point that I think bottas overall did a betetr job that race despite Hamilton putting more pressure on Leclerc and likely being quicker.

But I agree there are not many weekends where Hamilton isn't a fair bit quicker with it more clearly slowing that.


I spoke about Bottas' positives, those 2 races. But there were 7 others. Of course you focus on the negatives, that's how you critically evaluate something.

Ok, lets say Bottas was good in Italy. That gives him 3 great/good performances of those 9 races. If you want to say Bottas was better in Italy then go it. He had the perfect strategy to win, Hamilton as the hare and Bottas the tortoise. He was better than I remember but there is no real race pace comparison as Leclerc held Hamilton up the entire race.

But you can't hide the fact, Bottas had a car to battle for all 9 races wins and realistically he was in the battle 2 or 3 times.

You say, IF this happend or that happened then Bottas would have equalled Hamilton in points. But IF Mercedes pitted Hamilton at the right time in Singapore and Leclerc was penalised in Italy as you would expect, Hamilton would have outscored him by 60+ points. IFs work both ways, lets not ignore that. The usual gulf in class between them was as apparent as ever. If Ferrari were not possible cheating, Hamilton would have won 6 or 7 races to Bottas' 2.


I think i can see your point regarding all the other races regarding performance over results. And I also agree Hamilton will have likely had better pace in Italy, but that pace and running so close to Leclerc had consequences which put him behind Bottas. And that is where I think Bottas did better and I have already explained why I think Bottas couldn't get past.

I don't get the big deal being made about Ferrari cheating. I it actually was against the rules, they shouldn't have anything count this season. And Leclerc got away with the sort of thing Verstappen constantly has. The races where i think Hamilton lost out a bit was Singapore and Japan, but not by as much as bottas in the last two races combined.


Hamilton won 3 races, Bottas 2 races. If Ferrari weren't cheating, the Hamilton would have won a lot more races. Almost certainly Spa, Monza and Singapore and maybe Japan too.

If you were to re-run the Italain GP after qualifying, which driver would you back to win it. Hamilton or Bottas? I would choose Hamilton every time. Bottas may have got the better result but Hamilton had a much greater chance to win the race.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Points aren’t performance... Albon would have out scored Max if not for Brazil crash with Hamilton I believe. So that tells you everything about points.

But yes Italy sums it up best. Hamilton battling for the win all race with Bottas a distant 3rd all race, but through pushing the limits of his tyres to win and getting pushed off track it ended Bottas P2 and Hamilton P3. Likewise Singapore, Hamilton in for the win if they pit him at the right time but it ends P4 and P5 due to poor strategy. Spa, again Hamilton fighting for win and Bottas a distant 3rd.

Bottas has been in the fight for the win 2 times in 9 races. Hamilton 9 out of 9, I think he lead all 9 races at some point. In 6-7 of those 9 races, there was another car between Bottas and Hamilton or a large gap.



I may be the opposite, but you do seem a bit like you really try to point out Bottas's negatives at times. And not always correctly. Italy, a distant 3rd ALL race? 11 laps in he still was a fraction of a second off getting DRS from Hamilton. He didn't drop back any more that 2 seconds in this stint. As you point out Hamilton has often led a race (which isn't always down to him earning the position). Well Bottas was leading it for a few laps in this case. When he pitted, he was 8 seconds behind Hamilton in 4th, not 3rd. By the time he was 3rd, it dropped to 5 seconds when Ricciardo pitted during the VSC. Meanwhile, just before this, Bottas had done fastest lap. Within 10 laps Bottas had caught and passed Hamilton. Then spent the next 11 laps ahead.

You saying Bottas was a distant 3rd all race really is not accurate.

I am fully aware Hamilton likely will have had had more pace in hand and was stuck behind Leclerc, but as other drivers like Verstappen got away with a warning at this track last year, maybe it is fair that Leclerc got away with similar first time he does it. Bottas may also have had a slightly better strategy, but he made it work pretty well and got a better result than Hamilton. You are making him look worse than he was that race. Given that Hamilton was stuck behind Leclerc, all we actually know is that Bottas could keep up with Hamilton in the 1st stint, and caught up and got by in the 2nd stint. I think this is a good enough case for me to make a point that I think bottas overall did a betetr job that race despite Hamilton putting more pressure on Leclerc and likely being quicker.

But I agree there are not many weekends where Hamilton isn't a fair bit quicker with it more clearly slowing that.


I spoke about Bottas' positives, those 2 races. But there were 7 others. Of course you focus on the negatives, that's how you critically evaluate something.

Ok, lets say Bottas was good in Italy. That gives him 3 great/good performances of those 9 races. If you want to say Bottas was better in Italy then go it. He had the perfect strategy to win, Hamilton as the hare and Bottas the tortoise. He was better than I remember but there is no real race pace comparison as Leclerc held Hamilton up the entire race.

But you can't hide the fact, Bottas had a car to battle for all 9 races wins and realistically he was in the battle 2 or 3 times.

You say, IF this happend or that happened then Bottas would have equalled Hamilton in points. But IF Mercedes pitted Hamilton at the right time in Singapore and Leclerc was penalised in Italy as you would expect, Hamilton would have outscored him by 60+ points. IFs work both ways, lets not ignore that. The usual gulf in class between them was as apparent as ever. If Ferrari were not possible cheating, Hamilton would have won 6 or 7 races to Bottas' 2.


I think i can see your point regarding all the other races regarding performance over results. And I also agree Hamilton will have likely had better pace in Italy, but that pace and running so close to Leclerc had consequences which put him behind Bottas. And that is where I think Bottas did better and I have already explained why I think Bottas couldn't get past.

I don't get the big deal being made about Ferrari cheating. I it actually was against the rules, they shouldn't have anything count this season. And Leclerc got away with the sort of thing Verstappen constantly has. The races where i think Hamilton lost out a bit was Singapore and Japan, but not by as much as bottas in the last two races combined.


Hamilton won 3 races, Bottas 2 races. If Ferrari weren't cheating, the Hamilton would have won a lot more races. Almost certainly Spa, Monza and Singapore and maybe Japan too.

If you were to re-run the Italain GP after qualifying, which driver would you back to win it. Hamilton or Bottas? I would choose Hamilton every time. Bottas may have got the better result but Hamilton had a much greater chance to win the race.

As I have said, why would Ferrari get away with "cheating"? I am hearing this everywhere but I don't think I believe it unless they actually get punished for it. What evidence is there for it?

When I watched qualifying, yes, I did think Hamilton looked better, and I do believe Leclerc was holding him up and had better pace. But I look at the possible results sometimes and not the pace, and Hamilton could have done better than he did by holding back and saving his tyres and prevented Bottas getting by him later on. Him doing this "incredible job" of staying close to Leclerc for so long is what got him beat by Bottas. That is what I find amusing that people still are saying he did better. If those people are purely basing it on his ability to stay close rather than the end result, then I agree he did better.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


I may be the opposite, but you do seem a bit like you really try to point out Bottas's negatives at times. And not always correctly. Italy, a distant 3rd ALL race? 11 laps in he still was a fraction of a second off getting DRS from Hamilton. He didn't drop back any more that 2 seconds in this stint. As you point out Hamilton has often led a race (which isn't always down to him earning the position). Well Bottas was leading it for a few laps in this case. When he pitted, he was 8 seconds behind Hamilton in 4th, not 3rd. By the time he was 3rd, it dropped to 5 seconds when Ricciardo pitted during the VSC. Meanwhile, just before this, Bottas had done fastest lap. Within 10 laps Bottas had caught and passed Hamilton. Then spent the next 11 laps ahead.

You saying Bottas was a distant 3rd all race really is not accurate.

I am fully aware Hamilton likely will have had had more pace in hand and was stuck behind Leclerc, but as other drivers like Verstappen got away with a warning at this track last year, maybe it is fair that Leclerc got away with similar first time he does it. Bottas may also have had a slightly better strategy, but he made it work pretty well and got a better result than Hamilton. You are making him look worse than he was that race. Given that Hamilton was stuck behind Leclerc, all we actually know is that Bottas could keep up with Hamilton in the 1st stint, and caught up and got by in the 2nd stint. I think this is a good enough case for me to make a point that I think bottas overall did a betetr job that race despite Hamilton putting more pressure on Leclerc and likely being quicker.

But I agree there are not many weekends where Hamilton isn't a fair bit quicker with it more clearly slowing that.


I spoke about Bottas' positives, those 2 races. But there were 7 others. Of course you focus on the negatives, that's how you critically evaluate something.

Ok, lets say Bottas was good in Italy. That gives him 3 great/good performances of those 9 races. If you want to say Bottas was better in Italy then go it. He had the perfect strategy to win, Hamilton as the hare and Bottas the tortoise. He was better than I remember but there is no real race pace comparison as Leclerc held Hamilton up the entire race.

But you can't hide the fact, Bottas had a car to battle for all 9 races wins and realistically he was in the battle 2 or 3 times.

You say, IF this happend or that happened then Bottas would have equalled Hamilton in points. But IF Mercedes pitted Hamilton at the right time in Singapore and Leclerc was penalised in Italy as you would expect, Hamilton would have outscored him by 60+ points. IFs work both ways, lets not ignore that. The usual gulf in class between them was as apparent as ever. If Ferrari were not possible cheating, Hamilton would have won 6 or 7 races to Bottas' 2.


I think i can see your point regarding all the other races regarding performance over results. And I also agree Hamilton will have likely had better pace in Italy, but that pace and running so close to Leclerc had consequences which put him behind Bottas. And that is where I think Bottas did better and I have already explained why I think Bottas couldn't get past.

I don't get the big deal being made about Ferrari cheating. I it actually was against the rules, they shouldn't have anything count this season. And Leclerc got away with the sort of thing Verstappen constantly has. The races where i think Hamilton lost out a bit was Singapore and Japan, but not by as much as bottas in the last two races combined.


Hamilton won 3 races, Bottas 2 races. If Ferrari weren't cheating, the Hamilton would have won a lot more races. Almost certainly Spa, Monza and Singapore and maybe Japan too.

If you were to re-run the Italain GP after qualifying, which driver would you back to win it. Hamilton or Bottas? I would choose Hamilton every time. Bottas may have got the better result but Hamilton had a much greater chance to win the race.

As I have said, why would Ferrari get away with "cheating"? I am hearing this everywhere but I don't think I believe it unless they actually get punished for it. What evidence is there for it?

When I watched qualifying, yes, I did think Hamilton looked better, and I do believe Leclerc was holding him up and had better pace. But I look at the possible results sometimes and not the pace, and Hamilton could have done better than he did by holding back and saving his tyres and prevented Bottas getting by him later on. Him doing this "incredible job" of staying close to Leclerc for so long is what got him beat by Bottas. That is what I find amusing that people still are saying he did better. If those people are purely basing it on his ability to stay close rather than the end result, then I agree he did better.


I don't know if they cheated or not but there are reasons they may get away with it.

It would be for the FIA to punish Ferrari.

The FIA are trying to push through a huge raft of changes for 2021. Some of which hurt Ferrari like the budget cap. As Ferrari are given the special privilege of a veto they have to be kept onside or could kibosh those changes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Hamilton could have done better and collected an easy P2 in Italy yes, but he was racing only to win. Just like Brazil, again he could have collected another easy P2 there too. But he had the title essentially wrapped up so he was only interested in race wins especially if Bottas was behind him and not going to win himself.

I never said Hamilton did an incredible job to keep up with Leclerc.

I am just objectively analysing the race weekend and specifically Bottas. He looked ok that race but Hamilton was in traffic all race. So its hard to actually analyse eithers performance. So I was incorrect in saying that Bottas was a distant 3rd all race.

Whether Ferrari cheated or not isn't my point, my point is Hamilton was up top fighting for every race win and Bottas was fighting for 4th-5th in many of those races. Brazil, Singapore, Mexico and Russia.

Bottas did win 2 races but even that took a kind of perfect storm;

Japan, he needed a perfect start to go 3rd to 1st and Hamilton to be held up by Vettel the entire first stint and then for Mercedes to not allow Hamilton to stop one less time. Japan is also Hamiltons weakest track in qualifying. Lost 3-1 to Rosberg and it was the only track Button out qualified him on, losing 2-1.

USA, he did well in both qualifying and the race. But Hamilton had an issue on his first run with his brake balance switch moving all through his lap and then on his 2nd run the track was slower and Hamilton had to push harder to find the time.

I am not taking anything away from Bottas, he won 2 races fair and square but it took a big combination of factors to win those and those are the only 2 races and maybe Italy he was ever in the hunt to win. Bottas also had a bad race in Russia which is usually his best track.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:42 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Points aren’t performance... Albon would have out scored Max if not for Brazil crash with Hamilton I believe. So that tells you everything about points.

But yes Italy sums it up best. Hamilton battling for the win all race with Bottas a distant 3rd all race, but through pushing the limits of his tyres to win and getting pushed off track it ended Bottas P2 and Hamilton P3. Likewise Singapore, Hamilton in for the win if they pit him at the right time but it ends P4 and P5 due to poor strategy. Spa, again Hamilton fighting for win and Bottas a distant 3rd.

Bottas has been in the fight for the win 2 times in 9 races. Hamilton 9 out of 9, I think he lead all 9 races at some point. In 6-7 of those 9 races, there was another car between Bottas and Hamilton or a large gap.



I may be the opposite, but you do seem a bit like you really try to point out Bottas's negatives at times. And not always correctly. Italy, a distant 3rd ALL race? 11 laps in he still was a fraction of a second off getting DRS from Hamilton. He didn't drop back any more that 2 seconds in this stint. As you point out Hamilton has often led a race (which isn't always down to him earning the position). Well Bottas was leading it for a few laps in this case. When he pitted, he was 8 seconds behind Hamilton in 4th, not 3rd. By the time he was 3rd, it dropped to 5 seconds when Ricciardo pitted during the VSC. Meanwhile, just before this, Bottas had done fastest lap. Within 10 laps Bottas had caught and passed Hamilton. Then spent the next 11 laps ahead.

You saying Bottas was a distant 3rd all race really is not accurate.

I am fully aware Hamilton likely will have had had more pace in hand and was stuck behind Leclerc, but as other drivers like Verstappen got away with a warning at this track last year, maybe it is fair that Leclerc got away with similar first time he does it. Bottas may also have had a slightly better strategy, but he made it work pretty well and got a better result than Hamilton. You are making him look worse than he was that race. Given that Hamilton was stuck behind Leclerc, all we actually know is that Bottas could keep up with Hamilton in the 1st stint, and caught up and got by in the 2nd stint. I think this is a good enough case for me to make a point that I think bottas overall did a betetr job that race despite Hamilton putting more pressure on Leclerc and likely being quicker.

But I agree there are not many weekends where Hamilton isn't a fair bit quicker with it more clearly slowing that.


Verstappen got a penalty for his move on Bottas in Italy last year from memory, because he threw a tantrum after getting the penalty.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:45 pm 
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Hamilton can take the race to a Ferrari dominate on the straights in Monza and Bottas cant, that is the big difference between the drivers. Hamilton could have simply sat back and take 2nd and say I got the better result but that's not the attitude of a champion and one of the best, that's also another difference between Hamilton and Bottas.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Hamilton could have done better and collected an easy P2 in Italy yes, but he was racing only to win. Just like Brazil, again he could have collected another easy P2 there too. But he had the title essentially wrapped up so he was only interested in race wins especially if Bottas was behind him and not going to win himself.

I never said Hamilton did an incredible job to keep up with Leclerc.

I am just objectively analysing the race weekend and specifically Bottas. He looked ok that race but Hamilton was in traffic all race. So its hard to actually analyse eithers performance. So I was incorrect in saying that Bottas was a distant 3rd all race.

Whether Ferrari cheated or not isn't my point, my point is Hamilton was up top fighting for every race win and Bottas was fighting for 4th-5th in many of those races. Brazil, Singapore, Mexico and Russia.

Bottas did win 2 races but even that took a kind of perfect storm;

Japan, he needed a perfect start to go 3rd to 1st and Hamilton to be held up by Vettel the entire first stint and then for Mercedes to not allow Hamilton to stop one less time. Japan is also Hamiltons weakest track in qualifying. Lost 3-1 to Rosberg and it was the only track Button out qualified him on, losing 2-1.

USA, he did well in both qualifying and the race. But Hamilton had an issue on his first run with his brake balance switch moving all through his lap and then on his 2nd run the track was slower and Hamilton had to push harder to find the time.

I am not taking anything away from Bottas, he won 2 races fair and square but it took a big combination of factors to win those and those are the only 2 races and maybe Italy he was ever in the hunt to win. Bottas also had a bad race in Russia which is usually his best track.


Yea i was disappointed with Bottas in Russia especially based on his usual performance there.

I think that in Singapore, Bottas qualified about where the car is performance wise, and Hamilton simply did better than that. But once he had his pit stop, his pace seemed nowhere as he was slower than verstappen, who was already slower than Leclerc. I'm not convinced he would have kept challenging for the win given Vettel and Leclerc both looked quicker than Verstappen. Or do you think he had one of his moments where he had given up hope and wasn't really trying? He was faster than Bottas, but then Bottas had been told to slow down by over 3 seconds to apparently make his tyres last when it was more to prevent Hamilton being at risk from Albon. Bottas maybe took it easy from there and Hamilton didn't show much either for the rest of the race.

I thought many on this forum were pretty impressed by Bottas's pace in Mexico despite his crash in qualifying (more so than me at the time in fact). He came pretty close close to getting by Vettel, who was barely behind Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Bottas had bad starts here. After Leclerc had pitted (which was pretty near the start), Bottas was set for 3rd rather than 4th or 5th. He may have been in those positions at times, but them Hamilton was 3rd for a lot of it too. But neither of these represented the likely finishing position. I don't think Mexico was weak point for Bottas compared to Hamilton on race day. There wasn't a great deal of pace difference between them.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:06 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Points aren’t performance... Albon would have out scored Max if not for Brazil crash with Hamilton I believe. So that tells you everything about points.

But yes Italy sums it up best. Hamilton battling for the win all race with Bottas a distant 3rd all race, but through pushing the limits of his tyres to win and getting pushed off track it ended Bottas P2 and Hamilton P3. Likewise Singapore, Hamilton in for the win if they pit him at the right time but it ends P4 and P5 due to poor strategy. Spa, again Hamilton fighting for win and Bottas a distant 3rd.

Bottas has been in the fight for the win 2 times in 9 races. Hamilton 9 out of 9, I think he lead all 9 races at some point. In 6-7 of those 9 races, there was another car between Bottas and Hamilton or a large gap.



I may be the opposite, but you do seem a bit like you really try to point out Bottas's negatives at times. And not always correctly. Italy, a distant 3rd ALL race? 11 laps in he still was a fraction of a second off getting DRS from Hamilton. He didn't drop back any more that 2 seconds in this stint. As you point out Hamilton has often led a race (which isn't always down to him earning the position). Well Bottas was leading it for a few laps in this case. When he pitted, he was 8 seconds behind Hamilton in 4th, not 3rd. By the time he was 3rd, it dropped to 5 seconds when Ricciardo pitted during the VSC. Meanwhile, just before this, Bottas had done fastest lap. Within 10 laps Bottas had caught and passed Hamilton. Then spent the next 11 laps ahead.

You saying Bottas was a distant 3rd all race really is not accurate.

I am fully aware Hamilton likely will have had had more pace in hand and was stuck behind Leclerc, but as other drivers like Verstappen got away with a warning at this track last year, maybe it is fair that Leclerc got away with similar first time he does it. Bottas may also have had a slightly better strategy, but he made it work pretty well and got a better result than Hamilton. You are making him look worse than he was that race. Given that Hamilton was stuck behind Leclerc, all we actually know is that Bottas could keep up with Hamilton in the 1st stint, and caught up and got by in the 2nd stint. I think this is a good enough case for me to make a point that I think bottas overall did a betetr job that race despite Hamilton putting more pressure on Leclerc and likely being quicker.

But I agree there are not many weekends where Hamilton isn't a fair bit quicker with it more clearly slowing that.


Verstappen got a penalty for his move on Bottas in Italy last year from memory, because he threw a tantrum after getting the penalty.


Much earlier on in the race, Bottas made an attempt on the inside of Verstappen, verstappen locked up and released the breaks and cuts the corner. He gets away with this. Then gets a penalty for what happens later. They sometimes are a little slack on certain things and I am wondering if they forgave Leclerc first time and would have punished him if he did something later.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:02 pm 
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https://www.facebook.com/MercedesAMGF1/ ... 859591028/


and a dodgy vid






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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:36 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Points aren’t performance... Albon would have out scored Max if not for Brazil crash with Hamilton I believe. So that tells you everything about points.

But yes Italy sums it up best. Hamilton battling for the win all race with Bottas a distant 3rd all race, but through pushing the limits of his tyres to win and getting pushed off track it ended Bottas P2 and Hamilton P3. Likewise Singapore, Hamilton in for the win if they pit him at the right time but it ends P4 and P5 due to poor strategy. Spa, again Hamilton fighting for win and Bottas a distant 3rd.

Bottas has been in the fight for the win 2 times in 9 races. Hamilton 9 out of 9, I think he lead all 9 races at some point. In 6-7 of those 9 races, there was another car between Bottas and Hamilton or a large gap.



I may be the opposite, but you do seem a bit like you really try to point out Bottas's negatives at times. And not always correctly. Italy, a distant 3rd ALL race? 11 laps in he still was a fraction of a second off getting DRS from Hamilton. He didn't drop back any more that 2 seconds in this stint. As you point out Hamilton has often led a race (which isn't always down to him earning the position). Well Bottas was leading it for a few laps in this case. When he pitted, he was 8 seconds behind Hamilton in 4th, not 3rd. By the time he was 3rd, it dropped to 5 seconds when Ricciardo pitted during the VSC. Meanwhile, just before this, Bottas had done fastest lap. Within 10 laps Bottas had caught and passed Hamilton. Then spent the next 11 laps ahead.

You saying Bottas was a distant 3rd all race really is not accurate.

I am fully aware Hamilton likely will have had had more pace in hand and was stuck behind Leclerc, but as other drivers like Verstappen got away with a warning at this track last year, maybe it is fair that Leclerc got away with similar first time he does it. Bottas may also have had a slightly better strategy, but he made it work pretty well and got a better result than Hamilton. You are making him look worse than he was that race. Given that Hamilton was stuck behind Leclerc, all we actually know is that Bottas could keep up with Hamilton in the 1st stint, and caught up and got by in the 2nd stint. I think this is a good enough case for me to make a point that I think bottas overall did a betetr job that race despite Hamilton putting more pressure on Leclerc and likely being quicker.

But I agree there are not many weekends where Hamilton isn't a fair bit quicker with it more clearly slowing that.


Verstappen got a penalty for his move on Bottas in Italy last year from memory, because he threw a tantrum after getting the penalty.


Much earlier on in the race, Bottas made an attempt on the inside of Verstappen, verstappen locked up and released the breaks and cuts the corner. He gets away with this. Then gets a penalty for what happens later. They sometimes are a little slack on certain things and I am wondering if they forgave Leclerc first time and would have punished him if he did something later.


Both broke the rules though which is kind of the point.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:36 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Hamilton could have done better and collected an easy P2 in Italy yes, but he was racing only to win. Just like Brazil, again he could have collected another easy P2 there too. But he had the title essentially wrapped up so he was only interested in race wins especially if Bottas was behind him and not going to win himself.

I never said Hamilton did an incredible job to keep up with Leclerc.

I am just objectively analysing the race weekend and specifically Bottas. He looked ok that race but Hamilton was in traffic all race. So its hard to actually analyse eithers performance. So I was incorrect in saying that Bottas was a distant 3rd all race.

Whether Ferrari cheated or not isn't my point, my point is Hamilton was up top fighting for every race win and Bottas was fighting for 4th-5th in many of those races. Brazil, Singapore, Mexico and Russia.

Bottas did win 2 races but even that took a kind of perfect storm;

Japan, he needed a perfect start to go 3rd to 1st and Hamilton to be held up by Vettel the entire first stint and then for Mercedes to not allow Hamilton to stop one less time. Japan is also Hamiltons weakest track in qualifying. Lost 3-1 to Rosberg and it was the only track Button out qualified him on, losing 2-1.

USA, he did well in both qualifying and the race. But Hamilton had an issue on his first run with his brake balance switch moving all through his lap and then on his 2nd run the track was slower and Hamilton had to push harder to find the time.

I am not taking anything away from Bottas, he won 2 races fair and square but it took a big combination of factors to win those and those are the only 2 races and maybe Italy he was ever in the hunt to win. Bottas also had a bad race in Russia which is usually his best track.


Yea i was disappointed with Bottas in Russia especially based on his usual performance there.

I think that in Singapore, Bottas qualified about where the car is performance wise, and Hamilton simply did better than that. But once he had his pit stop, his pace seemed nowhere as he was slower than verstappen, who was already slower than Leclerc. I'm not convinced he would have kept challenging for the win given Vettel and Leclerc both looked quicker than Verstappen. Or do you think he had one of his moments where he had given up hope and wasn't really trying? He was faster than Bottas, but then Bottas had been told to slow down by over 3 seconds to apparently make his tyres last when it was more to prevent Hamilton being at risk from Albon. Bottas maybe took it easy from there and Hamilton didn't show much either for the rest of the race.

I thought many on this forum were pretty impressed by Bottas's pace in Mexico despite his crash in qualifying (more so than me at the time in fact). He came pretty close close to getting by Vettel, who was barely behind Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Bottas had bad starts here. After Leclerc had pitted (which was pretty near the start), Bottas was set for 3rd rather than 4th or 5th. He may have been in those positions at times, but them Hamilton was 3rd for a lot of it too. But neither of these represented the likely finishing position. I don't think Mexico was weak point for Bottas compared to Hamilton on race day. There wasn't a great deal of pace difference between them.


Singapore is 100% track position, pace is irrevelant. Hence how Leclerc could drive 3-4 seconds off the ultimate pace for the entire first stint and nobody could get near him.

Mercedes pits Hamilton as soon as the window opened up (the same lap as Vettel) and he wins the race, simple as that. In fact the window was opened for Hamilton a lap earlier than that.

Hamilton out qualified Bottas by 0.650 in Singapore, there is no way Bottas got what the car deserved. That's nonsense.

Mexico, Bottas was ok, but beaten by a Ferrari when he ran an optimum strategy.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:05 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Hamilton could have done better and collected an easy P2 in Italy yes, but he was racing only to win. Just like Brazil, again he could have collected another easy P2 there too. But he had the title essentially wrapped up so he was only interested in race wins especially if Bottas was behind him and not going to win himself.

I never said Hamilton did an incredible job to keep up with Leclerc.

I am just objectively analysing the race weekend and specifically Bottas. He looked ok that race but Hamilton was in traffic all race. So its hard to actually analyse eithers performance. So I was incorrect in saying that Bottas was a distant 3rd all race.

Whether Ferrari cheated or not isn't my point, my point is Hamilton was up top fighting for every race win and Bottas was fighting for 4th-5th in many of those races. Brazil, Singapore, Mexico and Russia.

Bottas did win 2 races but even that took a kind of perfect storm;

Japan, he needed a perfect start to go 3rd to 1st and Hamilton to be held up by Vettel the entire first stint and then for Mercedes to not allow Hamilton to stop one less time. Japan is also Hamiltons weakest track in qualifying. Lost 3-1 to Rosberg and it was the only track Button out qualified him on, losing 2-1.

USA, he did well in both qualifying and the race. But Hamilton had an issue on his first run with his brake balance switch moving all through his lap and then on his 2nd run the track was slower and Hamilton had to push harder to find the time.

I am not taking anything away from Bottas, he won 2 races fair and square but it took a big combination of factors to win those and those are the only 2 races and maybe Italy he was ever in the hunt to win. Bottas also had a bad race in Russia which is usually his best track.


Yea i was disappointed with Bottas in Russia especially based on his usual performance there.

I think that in Singapore, Bottas qualified about where the car is performance wise, and Hamilton simply did better than that. But once he had his pit stop, his pace seemed nowhere as he was slower than verstappen, who was already slower than Leclerc. I'm not convinced he would have kept challenging for the win given Vettel and Leclerc both looked quicker than Verstappen. Or do you think he had one of his moments where he had given up hope and wasn't really trying? He was faster than Bottas, but then Bottas had been told to slow down by over 3 seconds to apparently make his tyres last when it was more to prevent Hamilton being at risk from Albon. Bottas maybe took it easy from there and Hamilton didn't show much either for the rest of the race.

I thought many on this forum were pretty impressed by Bottas's pace in Mexico despite his crash in qualifying (more so than me at the time in fact). He came pretty close close to getting by Vettel, who was barely behind Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Bottas had bad starts here. After Leclerc had pitted (which was pretty near the start), Bottas was set for 3rd rather than 4th or 5th. He may have been in those positions at times, but them Hamilton was 3rd for a lot of it too. But neither of these represented the likely finishing position. I don't think Mexico was weak point for Bottas compared to Hamilton on race day. There wasn't a great deal of pace difference between them.


Singapore is 100% track position, pace is irrevelant. Hence how Leclerc could drive 3-4 seconds off the ultimate pace for the entire first stint and nobody could get near him.

Mercedes pits Hamilton as soon as the window opened up (the same lap as Vettel) and he wins the race, simple as that. In fact the window was opened for Hamilton a lap earlier than that.

Hamilton out qualified Bottas by 0.650 in Singapore, there is no way Bottas got what the car deserved. That's nonsense.

Mexico, Bottas was ok, but beaten by a Ferrari when he ran an optimum strategy.


I think Bottas got a decent enough run given his lap was compromised. Even I had forgot this happened. Bottas had backed off the car ahead while preparing his lap and right as he did this, Hamilton drove by. I don't think the gap will have been this large if Hamilton didn't do this. But then you could say if Hamilton hadn't overtook, Hamilton's own lap may have been effected. Bottas did question at the time why Hamilton passed him as he was too close to get a start without having to back off to much.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:30 pm 
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Hamilton has out qualified Bottas by 0.700, 0.700 and 0.650 at Singapore. He may well have got a little closer in 2019 but that’s his level at that track. He isn’t very good there.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Hamilton has out qualified Bottas by 0.700, 0.700 and 0.650 at Singapore. He may well have got a little closer in 2019 but that’s his level at that track. He isn’t very good there.

The fact that he was well under a tenth in his first run and was effected at the start of his 2nd doesn't indicate he likely lost a bit this time though? Not saying he was going to be that close to hamilton, but I don't think this gap was representative as Hamilton overtook Bottas just as Bottas was about to start his. They were close to even before this, but Hamilton visible made a mistake that run.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:09 am 
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Lewis Hamilton and Valentino Rossi: The ultimate F1, MotoGP job swap
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... p-job-swap


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:18 am 
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Longer version.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:16 am 
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shoot999 wrote:


Longer version.


:thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:55 am 
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Slightly interesting fact I've just noticed.

Lewis Hamilton is the only driver to start every race of the decade.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:20 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Slightly interesting fact I've just noticed.

Lewis Hamilton is the only driver to start every race of the decade.


Him and Vettel?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Slightly interesting fact I've just noticed.

Lewis Hamilton is the only driver to start every race of the decade.


Him and Vettel?


No, Vettel didn't start one. I think i remember him having a break down on a formation lap? Hamilton has 198 starts and Vettel has 197. Hamilton may well have the longest run of unbroken starts ever actually.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:37 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Slightly interesting fact I've just noticed.

Lewis Hamilton is the only driver to start every race of the decade.


Him and Vettel?


No, Vettel didn't start one. I think i remember him having a break down on a formation lap? Hamilton has 198 starts and Vettel has 197. Hamilton may well have the longest run of unbroken starts ever actually.

Bahrain 2016.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:48 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Slightly interesting fact I've just noticed.

Lewis Hamilton is the only driver to start every race of the decade.


Him and Vettel?


No, Vettel didn't start one. I think i remember him having a break down on a formation lap? Hamilton has 198 starts and Vettel has 197. Hamilton may well have the longest run of unbroken starts ever actually.

Bahrain 2016.

Ah, ok, thank you. I was thinking missing a race for other reasons like illness or something, but yeah, he broke down in the formation lap.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:15 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
A worthy nomination for the BBC’s sports personality of the year for Hamilton. He probably won’t win and I don’t think he’d get my vote if I bothered voting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/50471639

Other nominations are: Ben Stokes, Alun-Wyn Jones, Raheem Sterling, Dina Asher-Smith, Katarina Johnson-Thompson.


Hamilton came second so congrats to him for that :thumbup: I believe he is now joint top in the most top third finishes in this award (1 win and 4 second places).

Stokes won and Dina Asher-Smith third.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:49 pm 
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All i know about Stokes he has spent half the last few years suspended or banned, or up in front of the magistrate


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:21 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
All i know about Stokes he has spent half the last few years suspended or banned, or up in front of the magistrate


Then you missed 2 of the most magnificent sporting moments of the century, he was the inevitable winner.


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Option or Prime wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
All i know about Stokes he has spent half the last few years suspended or banned, or up in front of the magistrate


Then you missed 2 of the most magnificent sporting moments of the century, he was the inevitable winner.


This is interesting as so often the private life of a sportsperson is taken into account - how often has Lewis Hamilton been attacked for his lifestyle for example and it factors into how people perceive him.

To go from a drunken thug to a national sporting hero in a relatively short period of time is impressive to be fair.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:47 pm 
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scouseknight wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
All i know about Stokes he has spent half the last few years suspended or banned, or up in front of the magistrate


Then you missed 2 of the most magnificent sporting moments of the century, he was the inevitable winner.


This is interesting as so often the private life of a sportsperson is taken into account - how often has Lewis Hamilton been attacked for his lifestyle for example and it factors into how people perceive him.

To go from a drunken thug to a national sporting hero in a relatively short period of time is impressive to be fair.

It certainly demonstrates the 'personality' side of it! Congrats to him though; it was his stand-out moments that won England the Cricket World Cup and coming from a rather low point earlier in the year at that.
Hamilton certainly has personality - whether you like it or not is another thing - but, coupled with a ruthlessly consistent season, is justification enough for runner-up.
Mention to Dina Asher-Smith, who is simply a great personality as far as I am concerned. Good on her.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:23 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
A worthy nomination for the BBC’s sports personality of the year for Hamilton. He probably won’t win and I don’t think he’d get my vote if I bothered voting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/50471639

Other nominations are: Ben Stokes, Alun-Wyn Jones, Raheem Sterling, Dina Asher-Smith, Katarina Johnson-Thompson.


Hamilton came second so congrats to him for that :thumbup: I believe he is now joint top in the most top third finishes in this award (1 win and 4 second places).

Stokes won and Dina Asher-Smith third.

Right I was out and missed it, no surprise to see Stokes win it so in that case second place for Hamilton wasn't too bad.

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