planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:20 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

Rank the driver's performance in 2019
Rank the driver's performance in 2019 2%  2%  [ 32 ]
Albon 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Albon_1 1%  1%  [ 10 ]
Albon_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Albon_3 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Albon_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Bottas_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Bottas_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Bottas_3 1%  1%  [ 8 ]
Bottas_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Gasly_1 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Gasly_2 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Gasly_3 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Gasly_4 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Giovianzzi 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Giovianzzi_1 2%  2%  [ 21 ]
Giovianzzi_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Giovianzzi_3 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Giovianzzi_4 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Grosjean 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Grosjean_1 2%  2%  [ 23 ]
Grosjean_2 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Grosjean_3 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Grosjean_4 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Hamilton 2%  2%  [ 26 ]
Hamilton_1 1%  1%  [ 7 ]
Hamilton_2 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hamilton_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hulkenberg 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Hulkenberg_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Hulkenberg_2 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Hulkenberg_3 2%  2%  [ 27 ]
Hulkenberg_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Kubica 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Kubica_1 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Kubica_2 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Kubica_3 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Kubica_4 2%  2%  [ 30 ]
Kyvat 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Kyvat_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Kyvat_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Kyvat_3 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Kyvat_4 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Leclerc 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Leclerc_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Leclerc_2 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Leclerc_3 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Leclerc_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Magnussen_1 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Magnussen_2 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Magnussen_3 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Magnussen_4 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Norris 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Norris_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Norris_3 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Norris_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Perez 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Perez_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Perez_2 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Perez_3 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Perez_4 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Raikkonen 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Raikkonen_1 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Raikkonen_2 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Raikkonen_3 2%  2%  [ 26 ]
Raikkonen_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Ricciardo_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Ricciardo_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Ricciardo_3 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Ricciardo_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Russell 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Russell_1 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Russell_2 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Russell_3 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Russell_4 0%  0%  [ 6 ]
Sainz 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Sainz_1 2%  2%  [ 21 ]
Sainz_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Sainz_3 1%  1%  [ 7 ]
Sainz_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Stroll_1 2%  2%  [ 22 ]
Stroll_2 1%  1%  [ 7 ]
Stroll_3 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Stroll_4 2%  2%  [ 28 ]
Verstappen 1%  1%  [ 8 ]
Verstappen_1 2%  2%  [ 23 ]
Verstappen_2 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Verstappen_3 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Verstappen_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Vettel_1 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Vettel_2 2%  2%  [ 22 ]
Vettel_3 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Vettel_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 1376
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:15 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:10 am
Posts: 613
Now the the team principals have voted on the driver performances of 2019, it's time for us to have our turn.

This is similar to the Rank the Drivers poll - except whereas that is a poll for how you rank them in terms of their ability, this is a poll for how they performed in 2019. Some drivers may have overperformed, some may have underperformed, so this won't necessarily line up with how you rate them as a driver.

This is how the team principals rated the drivers this season (top 10 only)










POSITIONDRIVERSCORE
1Lewis Hamilton169
2Max Verstappen146
3Charles Leclerc124
4Valtteri Bottas68
5Sebastian Vettel58
6Alexander Albon57
7Carlos Sainz55
8Daniel Ricciardo49
9George Russell41
10Lando Norris38


How to use the poll
To add a driver to the list, click on their name in the left column and it will move to the right hand column below whichever driver is highlighted in blue (obviously, in the empty list it just gets added in position 1)

To remove a driver from the list, click on the x by their name. To change the driver you are adding after, click on the driver in the right hand list and they will be turned blue. To insert a driver at the top, click on the right hand column header.

Note, you must have ranked all items in the poll to be able to vote and you cannot rank things 'equal'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16683
Here is how I voted in the poll:



















1Hamilton
2Verstappen
3Leclerc
4Bottas
5Perez
6Sainz
7Vettel
8Russell
9Norris
10Raikkonen
11Ricciardo
12Hulkenberg
13Albon
14Magnussen
15Giovianzzi
16Kyvat
17Grosjean
18Stroll
19Gasly
20Kubica


I'm happy with the top 2 and Bottom 3 but apart from that I found it really tough.

Russell you could put anywhere from 3rd to 17th. He's the hardest to place.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7628
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
Russell you could put anywhere from 3rd to 17th. He's the hardest to place.

I put him 3rd, as a matter of fact! Based purely on his season performance, I can't find any fault, and some of his on-track action early in races (before the car inevitably let him down and he fell back) was excellent.

The only one of yours I'd take issue with is Leclerc. I'm a firm believer in his ability, but I think he threw away far too many points through his own fault early in the year to make the top three.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16683
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Russell you could put anywhere from 3rd to 17th. He's the hardest to place.

I put him 3rd, as a matter of fact! Based purely on his season performance, I can't find any fault, and some of his on-track action early in races (before the car inevitably let him down and he fell back) was excellent.

The only one of yours I'd take issue with is Leclerc. I'm a firm believer in his ability, but I think he threw away far too many points through his own fault early in the year to make the top three.


Yeah I had a real problem trying to find anyone to put third! In the end I went for Leclerc because whilst Vettel is error prone he is still very quick and for a new guy to come into his team and basically match him was a very good achievement. I think anyone I put in the top 10 I could have justified putting 3rd for various reasons. Sometimes it's hard on the guys in the best cars. We notice their mistakes a lot more and I was trying to be a bit mindful of that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3706
Apart from Hamilton and Verstappen, the rest of my list was completely different!:




















Season PerformanceAbility Ranking
1HamiltonHamilton
2VerstappenVerstappen
3SainzRicciardo
4RussellLeclerc
5RicciardoBottas
6BottasVettel
7PerezSainz
8NorrisPerez
9LeclercHulkenberg
10HulkenbergRaikkonen
11AlbonNorris
12KyvatRussell
13VettelKyvat
14RaikkonenAlbon
15GaslyMagnussen
16KubicaGasly
17GiovianzziGiovianzzi
18MagnussenGrosjean
19GrosjeanStroll
20StrollKubica


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
mikeyg123 wrote:
Here is how I voted in the poll:



















1Hamilton
2Verstappen
3Leclerc
4Bottas
5Perez
6Sainz
7Vettel
8Russell
9Norris
10Raikkonen
11Ricciardo
12Hulkenberg
13Albon
14Magnussen
15Giovianzzi
16Kyvat
17Grosjean
18Stroll
19Gasly
20Kubica


I'm happy with the top 2 and Bottom 3 but apart from that I found it really tough.

Russell you could put anywhere from 3rd to 17th. He's the hardest to place.


I understand that is is very tough as whenever i wright a list, I disagree with myself that I don't want to put it up here :D

Here is my view on some of yours if you don't mind me questioning some of it. I agree with most.

I thought Perez was excellent in the 2nd half of the season, but very underwhelming indeed in the first half. He scored 13 points in the first half and only in 3 races and missed out on what likely could have been the best opportunity to grab a great deal. Stroll scored points in 4 races and entered the summer break 5 points ahead. Now I know Germany was sort of lucky, but it sure is interesting that Stroll scored more then Perez at first. In the 2nd half though, Perez finished in the points in every single race he finished while Stroll finished in the points twice and got 3. Perez got 39. This part of the season looked very good, although Stroll will have likely beaten him on merit in Brazil if not for his issue. I just feel 5th is very high for Perez given he didn't do a great deal better than Stroll in the first half. And Stroll is a pretty bad team mate to have as a comparison really.

As I have mentioned before, I don't really see what the reasons are for Grosjean being rated behind Magnussen this year. The points don't reflect their season at all. And example of a sudden swing in points could have been that Grosjean quite likely could have got 4th in Brazil without his MGU-k failure given all the chaos going on and that will have got him tied with Magnusen. He was running ahead of Sainz at the restart and then just after sainz got by, he had his issue. And that is before you factor that he retired in 1 third of this season's races. Pace wise, Grosjean has been quicker than Magnussen, spent more laps ahead even including the races one or other retired while they were both running. He also finished ahead more often. Magnussen is better at taking opportunities when things go wrong (spain for example) and seems to have comfortably got ahead of Grosjean in qualifying too. other than that, I'd say Grosjean has quite easily had a better season.

Your list is helping me decide mine while i am discussing it it seems. I think it is mainly just moving Perez and Magnussen down a few for me. I also personally think Giovinazzi has been worse than both Grosjean and Magnussen so would move him down.

Hamilton
Verstappen

Leclerc
Bottas
Sainz
Vettel
Perez
Russell
Norris

Raikkonen
Ricciardo
Hulkenberg
Albon

Kvyat
Grosjean
Magnussen
Giovinazzi
Gasly
Stroll
Kubica

Russell does seem about the hardest to rank. I agree with the point you made about putting him anywhere.

I have put them into rough groups. I think Kimi started this season very solid indeed. Possibly would have rated him as high as 6th mid season. But I think he has sort of faded and is one reason why Giovinazzi is looking better. I personally think Grosjean and Magnussen are better than him. Gasly was terrible as Red Bull, but think his recovery was pretty good at Toro Rosso, so think I have to rate him above Stroll now.

Other than all that, I think I mostly agree :D

But yours has helped me write mine anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2683
My opinion agrees with the majority, the only difference is that I rated Verstappen first.

It was neck in neck for the majority of the season, but Brazil sealed it for Max imo.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
KingVoid wrote:
My opinion agrees with the majority, the only difference is that I rated Verstappen first.

It was neck in neck for the majority of the season, but Brazil sealed it for Max imo.


It may sound a bit like I'm making an excuse here, but Hamilton made a mistake at a time that it didn't really matter for him there. Would he have been more careful if he hadn't yet sealed the title? Verstappen has made a fair few more mistakes at races where his position in the championship was not confirmed. Monaco, Belgium, Italy, Mexico in qualifying and even the race with Bottas. He could have been a bit more patient to get by Bottas. I think Verstappen has the same speed as Hamilton (maybe even better?), just lacks the patience to choose the right time to get by and often seems in too much of a rush to get it done quickly. That is basically what I think triggered his mistakes in Italy and Belgium. Both of those races, he collided with cars he could have easily got by later on if he just had more patience.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16683
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
My opinion agrees with the majority, the only difference is that I rated Verstappen first.

It was neck in neck for the majority of the season, but Brazil sealed it for Max imo.


It may sound a bit like I'm making an excuse here, but Hamilton made a mistake at a time that it didn't really matter for him there. Would he have been more careful if he hadn't yet sealed the title? Verstappen has made a fair few more mistakes at races where his position in the championship was not confirmed. Monaco, Belgium, Italy, Mexico in qualifying and even the race with Bottas. He could have been a bit more patient to get by Bottas. I think Verstappen has the same speed as Hamilton (maybe even better?), just lacks the patience to choose the right time to get by and often seems in too much of a rush to get it done quickly. That is basically what I think triggered his mistakes in Italy and Belgium. Both of those races, he collided with cars he could have easily got by later on if he just had more patience.


I don't think Verstappen is racing for championship position when he was out of the championship race. He is racing to win each race. That's the best strategy for him and in the position he is in he can't win many races by being patient. I voted for Hamilton as number 1 but I think it was very marginal. Hamilton made the highest consequence mistakes in Germany. Verstappen made slightly more minor errors. That's pretty good for Verstappen considering Hamilton was racing conservatively whilst Verstappen raced to win. Hamilton raced to win the last two races and ended up getting a penalty in one of them. It shows how high risk racing like that is.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2683
Hamilton:
Austria - got a penalty in qualifying and broke his front wing in the race
Germany - crashed into the barrier and spun later in the race
Monza - ran off the track and lost a position to Bottas
Brazil - crashed into Albon

Verstappen:
Monaco - the pit incident was the teams fault. He made an overly ambitious move on Lewis but that didn’t affect the final result
Belgium - this might be an unpopular opinion but this was at least 50% on Kimi
Monza - completely Max’s own fault
Mexico - got a penalty in qualifying and a puncture in the race when he could have been more patient

It’s very close, but the way I see it, I don’t really blame Verstappen that much for either Monaco or Belgium. Also, it should be noted that Max had to start from the back in Monza because of engine penalties, something that never happened to Lewis this year.

Lewis’ mistake in Monza was not a big deal as he probably would have let Bottas through anyway. However, his mistakes in Austria, Germany and Brazil were clear and undeniable.

As for ultimate pace, Verstappen was quicker than his teammate every weekend this season. Hamilton had a few weekends where he was inferior to Bottas. You could say that Bottas is better than Gasly/Albon which evens it out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2607
Here is how I voted in the poll:



















1Hamilton
2Verstappen
3Bottas
4Sainz
5Russell
6Leclerc
7Ricciardo
8Perez
9Vettel
10Norris
11Hulkenberg
12Raikkonen
13Albon
14Grosjean
15Magnussen
16Gasly
17Kyvat
18Giovianzzi
19Stroll
20Kubica


I might be overrating Hamilton but that is why Bottas rates so highly based on his efforts and abilitites to confirm track position this year. Although it's hard to judge Russell I think it's just best for a season to give the benefit of the doubt for what we can see vs than what we imagine hasn't been proven, so I've ranked him highly. TBH this was quite an easy list to make which maybe shows I didn't think hard enough about it, but ho hum! :twisted:

Tiers...

Hamilton
Verstappen

Bottas
Sainz
Russell

Leclerc
Ricciardo
Perez

Vettel
Norris
Hulk

Raikkonen

Albon
Grosjean
Magnussen

Gasly
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Stroll

Kubica

Thank you and goodnight.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

1: Hamilton https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... -hamilton/
2: Verstappen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... erstappen/
3: Sainz https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... sainz-jnr/
4: Leclerc https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... 4-leclerc/
5: Bottas https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/22/201 ... -5-bottas/
6: Perez https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/21/201 ... gio-perez/
7: Ricciardo https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... ricciardo/
8: Norris https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... -8-norris/
9: Raikkonen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/201 ... raikkonen/
10: Vettel https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/18/201 ... 10-vettel/
11: Russell https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... 1-russell/
12: Albon https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... der-albon/
13: Gasly https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... -13-gasly/
14: Magnussen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... magnussen/
15: Hulkenberg https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/15/201 ... ulkenberg/
16: Kvyat https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/14/201 ... -16-kvyat/
17: Giovinazzi https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... iovinazzi/
18: Grosjean https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... -grosjean/
19: Stroll https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... ce-stroll/
20: Kubica https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... rt-kubica/



Hmm, I'm unsure about a lot of these positions. But then it helps with what a lot of us have done here which is split them into groups.

I think some are accurate enough on this list, but some team mates are way too far apart.

While Leclerc has clearly done better than Vettel and I'm not against Leclerc being 4th or even 3rd, Vettel has not done badly enough to be down in 10th. Reliability was worse on Vettel's site. Team favours worse for Leclerc. Both missed out on a similar number of points I'd say. Leclerc will have edged Vettel with things being even, btu I don't think they should be this many places apart. Has Kimi done better than Vettel this year? Not sure really.

Sainz is really difficult to work out. Previous years, he has looked to have pretty poor race craft and caused many of his own and other's retirements. This year, I myself think the McLaren has made him look really good and he is infact incredibly hard to fault, but I don't think he's had much of a challenge in a lot of the races due to how good the car is. Many of the times he's looked to be best of the rest i think has more to do with the car than his driving. And the fact he's been out qualified by a rookie i think makes being rated 3rd just a bit too high.

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.

8 places between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg. Ohhh that is a stretch to me. Ricciardo is too high and the exact opposite for Hulkenberg. Magnussen really has not done better than Hulkenberg this year surely?
7th is just too high for Ricciardo. He's got more penalty points than any other driver this season. Made a mistake forcing himself to retire in the first race, hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain, Forced Kvyat off track in Baku, then reversed into him. Forced Noriss off track and cut a corner in france, got himself a time penalty, then seconds later up the road passed Kimi off track and got himself another time penalty. 3 penalty points in one race. Is that the worst of any driver this year? He also crashed into magnussen in Brazil getting himself another penalty. This list of mistakes from Ricciardo is endless this year. I respect wehn he's been on form, he's been brillient and often comfortably beaten Hulkenberg, but I think they should be 1 - 2 places apart. More like 11th and 12th with Ricciardo being on top. Don't think either have done enough for being in the top 10 this year given their mistakes.

Other one I don't agree with is one where I would also swap their positions. Grosjean and Magnussen. There hasn't been that much between them and it has been hard to judge. But I don't think grosjean should be as low as 18th. Magnussen has not been better, especially enough to warrant being 4 positions higher IMO. Grosjean should be just ahead of Magnussen at around 15th.

I would question why Gasly is just 1 place behind Albon and ahead of Kvyat. He was the worst driver other than Kubica for most of the season. Kvyat may not have been great, but he was far better than Gasly at the start of the season. Gasly was better than Kvyat when he came back to Toro Rosso, but not by a great deal overall. Several races, kvyat got the better of him, and taking the first part of the season into account, I think Gasly should be 19th or 18th really.


I certainly used to agree with the rankings more on this site anyway!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33755
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton:
Austria - got a penalty in qualifying and broke his front wing in the race
Germany - crashed into the barrier and spun later in the race
Monza - ran off the track and lost a position to Bottas
Brazil - crashed into Albon

Verstappen:
Monaco - the pit incident was the teams fault. He made an overly ambitious move on Lewis but that didn’t affect the final result
Belgium - this might be an unpopular opinion but this was at least 50% on Kimi
Monza - completely Max’s own fault
Mexico - got a penalty in qualifying and a puncture in the race when he could have been more patient

It’s very close, but the way I see it, I don’t really blame Verstappen that much for either Monaco or Belgium. Also, it should be noted that Max had to start from the back in Monza because of engine penalties, something that never happened to Lewis this year.

Lewis’ mistake in Monza was not a big deal as he probably would have let Bottas through anyway. However, his mistakes in Austria, Germany and Brazil were clear and undeniable.

As for ultimate pace, Verstappen was quicker than his teammate every weekend this season. Hamilton had a few weekends where he was inferior to Bottas. You could say that Bottas is better than Gasly/Albon which evens it out.

For Hamilton both Germany and Brazil were pre-empted by poor strategy calls, let's make Hamilton's race a lot harder, in Monza perhaps an easy win if not racing against an illegal car?

That apart in Monza Hamilton was used as a hare and Bottas the tortoise, Hamilton basically sacrificed his race to better enable one of the Mercedes cars wins the race, he wasn't allowed the luxury of merely beating his teammate, the losing position to Bottas because of a mistake is immaterial, the team order was soon to be given for Hamilton to concede position to Bottas anyway.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33755
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

1: Hamilton https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... -hamilton/
2: Verstappen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... erstappen/
3: Sainz https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... sainz-jnr/
4: Leclerc https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... 4-leclerc/
5: Bottas https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/22/201 ... -5-bottas/
6: Perez https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/21/201 ... gio-perez/
7: Ricciardo https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... ricciardo/
8: Norris https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... -8-norris/
9: Raikkonen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/201 ... raikkonen/
10: Vettel https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/18/201 ... 10-vettel/
11: Russell https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... 1-russell/
12: Albon https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... der-albon/
13: Gasly https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... -13-gasly/
14: Magnussen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... magnussen/
15: Hulkenberg https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/15/201 ... ulkenberg/
16: Kvyat https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/14/201 ... -16-kvyat/
17: Giovinazzi https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... iovinazzi/
18: Grosjean https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... -grosjean/
19: Stroll https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... ce-stroll/
20: Kubica https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... rt-kubica/



Hmm, I'm unsure about a lot of these positions. But then it helps with what a lot of us have done here which is split them into groups.

I think some are accurate enough on this list, but some team mates are way too far apart.

While Leclerc has clearly done better than Vettel and I'm not against Leclerc being 4th or even 3rd, Vettel has not done badly enough to be down in 10th. Reliability was worse on Vettel's site. Team favours worse for Leclerc. Both missed out on a similar number of points I'd say. Leclerc will have edged Vettel with things being even, btu I don't think they should be this many places apart. Has Kimi done better than Vettel this year? Not sure really.

Sainz is really difficult to work out. Previous years, he has looked to have pretty poor race craft and caused many of his own and other's retirements. This year, I myself think the McLaren has made him look really good and he is infact incredibly hard to fault, but I don't think he's had much of a challenge in a lot of the races due to how good the car is. Many of the times he's looked to be best of the rest i think has more to do with the car than his driving. And the fact he's been out qualified by a rookie i think makes being rated 3rd just a bit too high.

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.

8 places between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg. Ohhh that is a stretch to me. Ricciardo is too high and the exact opposite for Hulkenberg. Magnussen really has not done better than Hulkenberg this year surely?
7th is just too high for Ricciardo. He's got more penalty points than any other driver this season. Made a mistake forcing himself to retire in the first race, hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain, Forced Kvyat off track in Baku, then reversed into him. Forced Noriss off track and cut a corner in france, got himself a time penalty, then seconds later up the road passed Kimi off track and got himself another time penalty. 3 penalty points in one race. Is that the worst of any driver this year? He also crashed into magnussen in Brazil getting himself another penalty. This list of mistakes from Ricciardo is endless this year. I respect wehn he's been on form, he's been brillient and often comfortably beaten Hulkenberg, but I think they should be 1 - 2 places apart. More like 11th and 12th with Ricciardo being on top. Don't think either have done enough for being in the top 10 this year given their mistakes.

Other one I don't agree with is one where I would also swap their positions. Grosjean and Magnussen. There hasn't been that much between them and it has been hard to judge. But I don't think grosjean should be as low as 18th. Magnussen has not been better, especially enough to warrant being 4 positions higher IMO. Grosjean should be just ahead of Magnussen at around 15th.

I would question why Gasly is just 1 place behind Albon and ahead of Kvyat. He was the worst driver other than Kubica for most of the season. Kvyat may not have been great, but he was far better than Gasly at the start of the season. Gasly was better than Kvyat when he came back to Toro Rosso, but not by a great deal overall. Several races, kvyat got the better of him, and taking the first part of the season into account, I think Gasly should be 19th or 18th really.


I certainly used to agree with the rankings more on this site anyway!

I would have to question the gap between Perez and Stroll being as low as 0.13s?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

1: Hamilton https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... -hamilton/
2: Verstappen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... erstappen/
3: Sainz https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... sainz-jnr/
4: Leclerc https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... 4-leclerc/
5: Bottas https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/22/201 ... -5-bottas/
6: Perez https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/21/201 ... gio-perez/
7: Ricciardo https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... ricciardo/
8: Norris https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... -8-norris/
9: Raikkonen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/201 ... raikkonen/
10: Vettel https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/18/201 ... 10-vettel/
11: Russell https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... 1-russell/
12: Albon https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... der-albon/
13: Gasly https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... -13-gasly/
14: Magnussen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... magnussen/
15: Hulkenberg https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/15/201 ... ulkenberg/
16: Kvyat https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/14/201 ... -16-kvyat/
17: Giovinazzi https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... iovinazzi/
18: Grosjean https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... -grosjean/
19: Stroll https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... ce-stroll/
20: Kubica https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... rt-kubica/



Hmm, I'm unsure about a lot of these positions. But then it helps with what a lot of us have done here which is split them into groups.

I think some are accurate enough on this list, but some team mates are way too far apart.

While Leclerc has clearly done better than Vettel and I'm not against Leclerc being 4th or even 3rd, Vettel has not done badly enough to be down in 10th. Reliability was worse on Vettel's site. Team favours worse for Leclerc. Both missed out on a similar number of points I'd say. Leclerc will have edged Vettel with things being even, btu I don't think they should be this many places apart. Has Kimi done better than Vettel this year? Not sure really.

Sainz is really difficult to work out. Previous years, he has looked to have pretty poor race craft and caused many of his own and other's retirements. This year, I myself think the McLaren has made him look really good and he is infact incredibly hard to fault, but I don't think he's had much of a challenge in a lot of the races due to how good the car is. Many of the times he's looked to be best of the rest i think has more to do with the car than his driving. And the fact he's been out qualified by a rookie i think makes being rated 3rd just a bit too high.

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.

8 places between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg. Ohhh that is a stretch to me. Ricciardo is too high and the exact opposite for Hulkenberg. Magnussen really has not done better than Hulkenberg this year surely?
7th is just too high for Ricciardo. He's got more penalty points than any other driver this season. Made a mistake forcing himself to retire in the first race, hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain, Forced Kvyat off track in Baku, then reversed into him. Forced Noriss off track and cut a corner in france, got himself a time penalty, then seconds later up the road passed Kimi off track and got himself another time penalty. 3 penalty points in one race. Is that the worst of any driver this year? He also crashed into magnussen in Brazil getting himself another penalty. This list of mistakes from Ricciardo is endless this year. I respect wehn he's been on form, he's been brillient and often comfortably beaten Hulkenberg, but I think they should be 1 - 2 places apart. More like 11th and 12th with Ricciardo being on top. Don't think either have done enough for being in the top 10 this year given their mistakes.

Other one I don't agree with is one where I would also swap their positions. Grosjean and Magnussen. There hasn't been that much between them and it has been hard to judge. But I don't think grosjean should be as low as 18th. Magnussen has not been better, especially enough to warrant being 4 positions higher IMO. Grosjean should be just ahead of Magnussen at around 15th.

I would question why Gasly is just 1 place behind Albon and ahead of Kvyat. He was the worst driver other than Kubica for most of the season. Kvyat may not have been great, but he was far better than Gasly at the start of the season. Gasly was better than Kvyat when he came back to Toro Rosso, but not by a great deal overall. Several races, kvyat got the better of him, and taking the first part of the season into account, I think Gasly should be 19th or 18th really.


I certainly used to agree with the rankings more on this site anyway!

I would have to question the gap between Perez and Stroll being as low as 0.13s?



https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/

In the mid season driver rankings, it was 0.33 in Perez's favour. So Stroll must have closed that down somewhat in the remaining 9 races to get it to 0.13. I will see if i can look closer into it to see how it was done.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33755
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

1: Hamilton https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... -hamilton/
2: Verstappen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... erstappen/
3: Sainz https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... sainz-jnr/
4: Leclerc https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... 4-leclerc/
5: Bottas https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/22/201 ... -5-bottas/
6: Perez https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/21/201 ... gio-perez/
7: Ricciardo https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... ricciardo/
8: Norris https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... -8-norris/
9: Raikkonen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/201 ... raikkonen/
10: Vettel https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/18/201 ... 10-vettel/
11: Russell https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... 1-russell/
12: Albon https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... der-albon/
13: Gasly https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... -13-gasly/
14: Magnussen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... magnussen/
15: Hulkenberg https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/15/201 ... ulkenberg/
16: Kvyat https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/14/201 ... -16-kvyat/
17: Giovinazzi https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... iovinazzi/
18: Grosjean https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... -grosjean/
19: Stroll https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... ce-stroll/
20: Kubica https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... rt-kubica/



Hmm, I'm unsure about a lot of these positions. But then it helps with what a lot of us have done here which is split them into groups.

I think some are accurate enough on this list, but some team mates are way too far apart.

While Leclerc has clearly done better than Vettel and I'm not against Leclerc being 4th or even 3rd, Vettel has not done badly enough to be down in 10th. Reliability was worse on Vettel's site. Team favours worse for Leclerc. Both missed out on a similar number of points I'd say. Leclerc will have edged Vettel with things being even, btu I don't think they should be this many places apart. Has Kimi done better than Vettel this year? Not sure really.

Sainz is really difficult to work out. Previous years, he has looked to have pretty poor race craft and caused many of his own and other's retirements. This year, I myself think the McLaren has made him look really good and he is infact incredibly hard to fault, but I don't think he's had much of a challenge in a lot of the races due to how good the car is. Many of the times he's looked to be best of the rest i think has more to do with the car than his driving. And the fact he's been out qualified by a rookie i think makes being rated 3rd just a bit too high.

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.

8 places between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg. Ohhh that is a stretch to me. Ricciardo is too high and the exact opposite for Hulkenberg. Magnussen really has not done better than Hulkenberg this year surely?
7th is just too high for Ricciardo. He's got more penalty points than any other driver this season. Made a mistake forcing himself to retire in the first race, hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain, Forced Kvyat off track in Baku, then reversed into him. Forced Noriss off track and cut a corner in france, got himself a time penalty, then seconds later up the road passed Kimi off track and got himself another time penalty. 3 penalty points in one race. Is that the worst of any driver this year? He also crashed into magnussen in Brazil getting himself another penalty. This list of mistakes from Ricciardo is endless this year. I respect wehn he's been on form, he's been brillient and often comfortably beaten Hulkenberg, but I think they should be 1 - 2 places apart. More like 11th and 12th with Ricciardo being on top. Don't think either have done enough for being in the top 10 this year given their mistakes.

Other one I don't agree with is one where I would also swap their positions. Grosjean and Magnussen. There hasn't been that much between them and it has been hard to judge. But I don't think grosjean should be as low as 18th. Magnussen has not been better, especially enough to warrant being 4 positions higher IMO. Grosjean should be just ahead of Magnussen at around 15th.

I would question why Gasly is just 1 place behind Albon and ahead of Kvyat. He was the worst driver other than Kubica for most of the season. Kvyat may not have been great, but he was far better than Gasly at the start of the season. Gasly was better than Kvyat when he came back to Toro Rosso, but not by a great deal overall. Several races, kvyat got the better of him, and taking the first part of the season into account, I think Gasly should be 19th or 18th really.


I certainly used to agree with the rankings more on this site anyway!

I would have to question the gap between Perez and Stroll being as low as 0.13s?



https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/

In the mid season driver rankings, it was 0.33 in Perez's favour. So Stroll must have closed that down somewhat in the remaining 9 races to get it to 0.13. I will see if i can look closer into it to see how it was done.

If that's your source then that explains it, they just throw everything into the mix.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:36 pm 
Online

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am
Posts: 1493
I have just thrown everything into the mix and got 0.327 in Perez’s favour. Is it possible racefans have made a typo with their 0.127 in favour of Pérez?

Edit: not saying is a good way of doing things but I was interested to see what happened.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
These are the times from the highest qualifying session that they both got into to make the time comparison fair. The conditions may be different if we judge a Q2 time against Q1 so that is irrelevent. If they both get through to Q2 or Q3, I will use those times.

Australia - Stroll: 1:23.017 - Perez: 1:22.908
Bahrain - Stroll: 1:30.217 - Perez: 1:29.893
China - Stroll: 1:34.292 - Perez: 1:34.026
Azerbaijan - Stroll: 1:42.630 - Perez: 1:42.249
Spain - Stroll: 1:18.471 - Perez: 1:18.286
Monaco - Stroll: 1:12.846 - Perez: 1:12.233
Canada - Stroll: 1:12.266 - Perez: 1:12.197
France - Stroll: 1:31.726 - Perez: 1:30.964
Austria - Stroll: 1:04.832 - Perez: 1:04.789
Britain - Stroll: 1:26.762 - Perez: 1:26.649
Germany - Stroll: 1:13.450 - Perez: 1:12.776
Hungary - Stroll: 1:17.542 - Perez:1:17.109

Belgium - Stroll: 1:45.047 - Perez: 1:44.707
Italy - Stroll: 1:20.643 - Perez: 1:21.291
Singapore - Stroll: 1:39.979 - Perez: 1:39.909
Russia - Stroll: 1:34.233 - Perez: 1:33.958
Japan - Stroll: 1:29.594 - Perez: 1:30.344
Mexico - Stroll: 1:18.065 - Perez: 1:17.465
USA - Stroll: 1:33.921 - Perez: 1:35.808
Brazil - Stroll: 1:09.536 - Perez: 1:09.288
Abu Dhabi - Stroll: 1:37.103 - Perez: 1:37.055

Stroll's 21 session's averaged out is: 125.532.
Perez's 21 sessions averaged out is: 125.424

That is a difference of 0.108.

When calculating these, I haven't factored in any bad luck either had in qualifying, and I have to say, racefans.net usually does a very fair comparison and often does not count certain things if they are not fair to compare. (that is why they make adjustments for certain team mates comparisons)

Anyhow, from my calculations, the average gap is incredibly close to what this site says, and they should be more accurate than me.


Correct me if you think my maths is not right as i am not great in this area though.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

1: Hamilton https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... -hamilton/
2: Verstappen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... erstappen/
3: Sainz https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... sainz-jnr/
4: Leclerc https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... 4-leclerc/
5: Bottas https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/22/201 ... -5-bottas/
6: Perez https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/21/201 ... gio-perez/
7: Ricciardo https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... ricciardo/
8: Norris https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... -8-norris/
9: Raikkonen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/201 ... raikkonen/
10: Vettel https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/18/201 ... 10-vettel/
11: Russell https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... 1-russell/
12: Albon https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... der-albon/
13: Gasly https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... -13-gasly/
14: Magnussen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... magnussen/
15: Hulkenberg https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/15/201 ... ulkenberg/
16: Kvyat https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/14/201 ... -16-kvyat/
17: Giovinazzi https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... iovinazzi/
18: Grosjean https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... -grosjean/
19: Stroll https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... ce-stroll/
20: Kubica https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... rt-kubica/



Hmm, I'm unsure about a lot of these positions. But then it helps with what a lot of us have done here which is split them into groups.

I think some are accurate enough on this list, but some team mates are way too far apart.

While Leclerc has clearly done better than Vettel and I'm not against Leclerc being 4th or even 3rd, Vettel has not done badly enough to be down in 10th. Reliability was worse on Vettel's site. Team favours worse for Leclerc. Both missed out on a similar number of points I'd say. Leclerc will have edged Vettel with things being even, btu I don't think they should be this many places apart. Has Kimi done better than Vettel this year? Not sure really.

Sainz is really difficult to work out. Previous years, he has looked to have pretty poor race craft and caused many of his own and other's retirements. This year, I myself think the McLaren has made him look really good and he is infact incredibly hard to fault, but I don't think he's had much of a challenge in a lot of the races due to how good the car is. Many of the times he's looked to be best of the rest i think has more to do with the car than his driving. And the fact he's been out qualified by a rookie i think makes being rated 3rd just a bit too high.

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.

8 places between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg. Ohhh that is a stretch to me. Ricciardo is too high and the exact opposite for Hulkenberg. Magnussen really has not done better than Hulkenberg this year surely?
7th is just too high for Ricciardo. He's got more penalty points than any other driver this season. Made a mistake forcing himself to retire in the first race, hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain, Forced Kvyat off track in Baku, then reversed into him. Forced Noriss off track and cut a corner in france, got himself a time penalty, then seconds later up the road passed Kimi off track and got himself another time penalty. 3 penalty points in one race. Is that the worst of any driver this year? He also crashed into magnussen in Brazil getting himself another penalty. This list of mistakes from Ricciardo is endless this year. I respect wehn he's been on form, he's been brillient and often comfortably beaten Hulkenberg, but I think they should be 1 - 2 places apart. More like 11th and 12th with Ricciardo being on top. Don't think either have done enough for being in the top 10 this year given their mistakes.

Other one I don't agree with is one where I would also swap their positions. Grosjean and Magnussen. There hasn't been that much between them and it has been hard to judge. But I don't think grosjean should be as low as 18th. Magnussen has not been better, especially enough to warrant being 4 positions higher IMO. Grosjean should be just ahead of Magnussen at around 15th.

I would question why Gasly is just 1 place behind Albon and ahead of Kvyat. He was the worst driver other than Kubica for most of the season. Kvyat may not have been great, but he was far better than Gasly at the start of the season. Gasly was better than Kvyat when he came back to Toro Rosso, but not by a great deal overall. Several races, kvyat got the better of him, and taking the first part of the season into account, I think Gasly should be 19th or 18th really.


I certainly used to agree with the rankings more on this site anyway!

I would have to question the gap between Perez and Stroll being as low as 0.13s?



https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/

In the mid season driver rankings, it was 0.33 in Perez's favour. So Stroll must have closed that down somewhat in the remaining 9 races to get it to 0.13. I will see if i can look closer into it to see how it was done.

If that's your source then that explains it, they just throw everything into the mix.

I don't get what you mean here. These team mates apparently were a pair that didn't have their average times adjusted unlike some others. And from my statistics below, it looks like heavily because of Japan and the USA, that could be what helped it close right down. I still think the average gap given here sounds right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33755
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
These are the times from the highest qualifying session that they both got into to make the time comparison fair. The conditions may be different if we judge a Q2 time against Q1 so that is irrelevent. If they both get through to Q2 or Q3, I will use those times.

Australia - Stroll: 1:23.017 - Perez: 1:22.908
Bahrain - Stroll: 1:30.217 - Perez: 1:29.893
China - Stroll: 1:34.292 - Perez: 1:34.026
Azerbaijan - Stroll: 1:42.630 - Perez: 1:42.249
Spain - Stroll: 1:18.471 - Perez: 1:18.286
Monaco - Stroll: 1:12.846 - Perez: 1:12.233
Canada - Stroll: 1:12.266 - Perez: 1:12.197
France - Stroll: 1:31.726 - Perez: 1:30.964
Austria - Stroll: 1:04.832 - Perez: 1:04.789
Britain - Stroll: 1:26.762 - Perez: 1:26.649
Germany - Stroll: 1:13.450 - Perez: 1:12.776
Hungary - Stroll: 1:17.542 - Perez:1:17.109

Belgium - Stroll: 1:45.047 - Perez: 1:44.707
Italy - Stroll: 1:20.643 - Perez: 1:21.291
Singapore - Stroll: 1:39.979 - Perez: 1:39.909
Russia - Stroll: 1:34.233 - Perez: 1:33.958
Japan - Stroll: 1:29.594 - Perez: 1:30.344
Mexico - Stroll: 1:18.065 - Perez: 1:17.465
USA - Stroll: 1:33.921 - Perez: 1:35.808
Brazil - Stroll: 1:09.536 - Perez: 1:09.288
Abu Dhabi - Stroll: 1:37.103 - Perez: 1:37.055

Stroll's 21 session's averaged out is: 125.532.
Perez's 21 sessions averaged out is: 125.424

That is a difference of 0.108.

When calculating these, I haven't factored in any bad luck either had in qualifying, and I have to say, racefans.net usually does a very fair comparison and often does not count certain things if they are not fair to compare. (that is why they make adjustments for certain team mates comparisons)

Anyhow, from my calculations, the average gap is incredibly close to what this site says, and they should be more accurate than me.


Correct me if you think my maths is not right as i am not great in this area though.

I commend you for the legwork so I can see any discrepancies and what hits me in the face straight away is Stroll out qualifying Perez by nearly 2 seconds in Austin.

Perez had to start the race from the pit lane after missing the weigh bridge in practice so didn't really take part in qualifying.

This is what racefans does, they just include everything without consideration of circumstance and why I don't take their data seriously.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33755
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

1: Hamilton https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... -hamilton/
2: Verstappen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/24/201 ... erstappen/
3: Sainz https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... sainz-jnr/
4: Leclerc https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/23/201 ... 4-leclerc/
5: Bottas https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/22/201 ... -5-bottas/
6: Perez https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/21/201 ... gio-perez/
7: Ricciardo https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... ricciardo/
8: Norris https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/20/201 ... -8-norris/
9: Raikkonen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/19/201 ... raikkonen/
10: Vettel https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/18/201 ... 10-vettel/
11: Russell https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... 1-russell/
12: Albon https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/17/201 ... der-albon/
13: Gasly https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... -13-gasly/
14: Magnussen https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/16/201 ... magnussen/
15: Hulkenberg https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/15/201 ... ulkenberg/
16: Kvyat https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/14/201 ... -16-kvyat/
17: Giovinazzi https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... iovinazzi/
18: Grosjean https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/13/201 ... -grosjean/
19: Stroll https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... ce-stroll/
20: Kubica https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/12/201 ... rt-kubica/



Hmm, I'm unsure about a lot of these positions. But then it helps with what a lot of us have done here which is split them into groups.

I think some are accurate enough on this list, but some team mates are way too far apart.

While Leclerc has clearly done better than Vettel and I'm not against Leclerc being 4th or even 3rd, Vettel has not done badly enough to be down in 10th. Reliability was worse on Vettel's site. Team favours worse for Leclerc. Both missed out on a similar number of points I'd say. Leclerc will have edged Vettel with things being even, btu I don't think they should be this many places apart. Has Kimi done better than Vettel this year? Not sure really.

Sainz is really difficult to work out. Previous years, he has looked to have pretty poor race craft and caused many of his own and other's retirements. This year, I myself think the McLaren has made him look really good and he is infact incredibly hard to fault, but I don't think he's had much of a challenge in a lot of the races due to how good the car is. Many of the times he's looked to be best of the rest i think has more to do with the car than his driving. And the fact he's been out qualified by a rookie i think makes being rated 3rd just a bit too high.

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.

8 places between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg. Ohhh that is a stretch to me. Ricciardo is too high and the exact opposite for Hulkenberg. Magnussen really has not done better than Hulkenberg this year surely?
7th is just too high for Ricciardo. He's got more penalty points than any other driver this season. Made a mistake forcing himself to retire in the first race, hit Hulkenberg in Bahrain, Forced Kvyat off track in Baku, then reversed into him. Forced Noriss off track and cut a corner in france, got himself a time penalty, then seconds later up the road passed Kimi off track and got himself another time penalty. 3 penalty points in one race. Is that the worst of any driver this year? He also crashed into magnussen in Brazil getting himself another penalty. This list of mistakes from Ricciardo is endless this year. I respect wehn he's been on form, he's been brillient and often comfortably beaten Hulkenberg, but I think they should be 1 - 2 places apart. More like 11th and 12th with Ricciardo being on top. Don't think either have done enough for being in the top 10 this year given their mistakes.

Other one I don't agree with is one where I would also swap their positions. Grosjean and Magnussen. There hasn't been that much between them and it has been hard to judge. But I don't think grosjean should be as low as 18th. Magnussen has not been better, especially enough to warrant being 4 positions higher IMO. Grosjean should be just ahead of Magnussen at around 15th.

I would question why Gasly is just 1 place behind Albon and ahead of Kvyat. He was the worst driver other than Kubica for most of the season. Kvyat may not have been great, but he was far better than Gasly at the start of the season. Gasly was better than Kvyat when he came back to Toro Rosso, but not by a great deal overall. Several races, kvyat got the better of him, and taking the first part of the season into account, I think Gasly should be 19th or 18th really.


I certainly used to agree with the rankings more on this site anyway!

I would have to question the gap between Perez and Stroll being as low as 0.13s?



https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/

In the mid season driver rankings, it was 0.33 in Perez's favour. So Stroll must have closed that down somewhat in the remaining 9 races to get it to 0.13. I will see if i can look closer into it to see how it was done.

If that's your source then that explains it, they just throw everything into the mix.

I don't get what you mean here. These team mates apparently were a pair that didn't have their average times adjusted unlike some others. And from my statistics below, it looks like heavily because of Japan and the USA, that could be what helped it close right down. I still think the average gap given here sounds right.

Also in Japan Perez did one less lap than Stroll in Q1, I normally take notes on such things but something must have happened to Perez on his final run, I remember one time when the team sent him out too late and he missed the chequered flag, on an improving track it can make a difference and it's something I would take into account.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I would have to question the gap between Perez and Stroll being as low as 0.13s?



https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/

In the mid season driver rankings, it was 0.33 in Perez's favour. So Stroll must have closed that down somewhat in the remaining 9 races to get it to 0.13. I will see if i can look closer into it to see how it was done.

If that's your source then that explains it, they just throw everything into the mix.

I don't get what you mean here. These team mates apparently were a pair that didn't have their average times adjusted unlike some others. And from my statistics below, it looks like heavily because of Japan and the USA, that could be what helped it close right down. I still think the average gap given here sounds right.

Also in Japan Perez did one less lap than Stroll in Q1, I normally take notes on such things but something must have happened to Perez on his final run, I remember one time when the team sent him out too late and he missed the chequered flag, on an improving track it can make a difference and it's something I would take into account.


In Japan, Perez could have improved. On Stroll's final run was where he ended up going 8 tenths faster than Perez's earlier set time. Perez was still on a lap when Stroll set this time and failed to improve. If Stroll improved by nearly a second on his previous time, why couldn't Perez?

I know the USA may be irrelevant, but I can't even be sure the way I added these up was the same way race fans did them. If I did the average gaps just based on Q1, I think Stroll would be closer still.

Anyhow, I still don't think he was quite as far off Perez as it often looked. He was often close time wise but split by many positions. I personally think Both are pretty weak in qualifying which is what makes Perez able to do a decent job and recovery in the race. But this is why I think he is just a little over rated this season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33755
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/

In the mid season driver rankings, it was 0.33 in Perez's favour. So Stroll must have closed that down somewhat in the remaining 9 races to get it to 0.13. I will see if i can look closer into it to see how it was done.

If that's your source then that explains it, they just throw everything into the mix.

I don't get what you mean here. These team mates apparently were a pair that didn't have their average times adjusted unlike some others. And from my statistics below, it looks like heavily because of Japan and the USA, that could be what helped it close right down. I still think the average gap given here sounds right.

Also in Japan Perez did one less lap than Stroll in Q1, I normally take notes on such things but something must have happened to Perez on his final run, I remember one time when the team sent him out too late and he missed the chequered flag, on an improving track it can make a difference and it's something I would take into account.


In Japan, Perez could have improved. On Stroll's final run was where he ended up going 8 tenths faster than Perez's earlier set time. Perez was still on a lap when Stroll set this time and failed to improve. If Stroll improved by nearly a second on his previous time, why couldn't Perez?

I know the USA may be irrelevant, but I can't even be sure the way I added these up was the same way race fans did them. If I did the average gaps just based on Q1, I think Stroll would be closer still.

Anyhow, I still don't think he was quite as far off Perez as it often looked. He was often close time wise but split by many positions. I personally think Both are pretty weak in qualifying which is what makes Perez able to do a decent job and recovery in the race. But this is why I think he is just a little over rated this season.

In a nutshell Perez had to start from the pit lane in Austin and didn't properly take part in qualifying, Stroll out qualifying Perez by 2 seconds just isn't a justifiable comparison, that one qualifying session brings Stroll's average gap down by 1 tenth over the season, racefans has the gap at 1 tenth, I have the gap at 2 tenths so there you go.

I also only use the Q1 times when Stroll fails to progress to Q2.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 592
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Here are the Driver rankings this year from racefans.net:

Although I think I will be in the minority here, I think 13 places between Perez and Stroll is maybe a bit much. Despite Stroll virtually never outqualifying Perez, the average gap was 0.13, which certainly isn't that big. I think both are actually pretty weak in qualifying. And Stroll is very weak in general. So this is not a good team mate to have as a comparison for Perez. I know some really don't like be comparing their season like this, but I still think the fact Stroll outscores Perez before the summer break must reflect that that stage of the season can't have been that good for perez. Not saying Stroll was better, he certainly wasn't but I don't think there was a big difference overall at this stage results wise. Even with perez's excellent 9 races after this, with Stroll putting in at least 1 excellent performance in Brazil, i don't think that the season as a whole should have this bigger gap between their rankings. 9 - 10 places maybe, but I don't think perez has been good enough to be 6th this season. He was underwhelming in the first half.


We have to remember that Perez was handily outqualified by Ocon last season, yet often outperformed him in races. So Stroll would.be expected to be reasonably close on Saturday.

A lot of Stroll's points came in pretty unusual circumstances. He scored points at Melbourne owing to other drivers getting stuck behind Gio. 12 of his 21 points came at that crazy race in Germany where keeping it on the track earned him 4th place. Canada was admittedly a good performance from him, but again it was heavily assisted by a bold strategy call. I'm not trying to belittle the Germany performance, but you might get one race a season like that if you're lucky.

In the bread and butter "normal" races his pace was often absolutely nowhere, and I can't help thinking that his underperfoming might have cost Racing Point 5th place in the constructers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16683
Perez being outscored by Stroll before the summer break is every bit as misleading as Russell getting outscored by Kubica.

When you're not in a car that consistently scores points one lucky race will distort things.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 2217
mikeyg123 wrote:
Perez being outscored by Stroll before the summer break is every bit as misleading as Russell getting outscored by Kubica.

When you're not in a car that consistently scores points one lucky race will distort things.

Well take away that "lucky" race that Perez binned it in then and Perez would be 7 ahead rather than Stroll 5 ahead. But still, they both finished in the points on 3 occasions. I don't think Stroll was dominated by Perez in the same way as Kubica was by Russel in the first half of the season. Not even close.

IMO, it was only the 2nd half of the season where we started to see Perez truly dominate Stroll overall in terms of results and performance. Although this forum seemed to miss that Brazil was clearly the other way round and Stroll was beating Perez all race until he had his suspension problem. He got 4 votes vs 24 for the team mate wars. 8 times as many. I think it shows that Stroll is often judged unfairly and many just seem to assume Perez is always far better. That is pretty often the case, but Stroll is sometimes closer than some realise.

Perez has still been far better than Stroll overall, but I think the first half let him down somewhat when being compared to Stroll.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16683
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Perez being outscored by Stroll before the summer break is every bit as misleading as Russell getting outscored by Kubica.

When you're not in a car that consistently scores points one lucky race will distort things.

Well take away that "lucky" race that Perez binned it in then and Perez would be 7 ahead rather than Stroll 5 ahead. But still, they both finished in the points on 3 occasions. I don't think Stroll was dominated by Perez in the same way as Kubica was by Russel in the first half of the season. Not even close.

IMO, it was only the 2nd half of the season where we started to see Perez truly dominate Stroll overall in terms of results and performance. Although this forum seemed to miss that Brazil was clearly the other way round and Stroll was beating Perez all race until he had his suspension problem. He got 4 votes vs 24 for the team mate wars. 8 times as many. I think it shows that Stroll is often judged unfairly and many just seem to assume Perez is always far better. That is pretty often the case, but Stroll is sometimes closer than some realise.

Perez has still been far better than Stroll overall, but I think the first half let him down somewhat when being compared to Stroll.


It was lucky. Stroll was plodding around almost dead last until the late safety car changed everything. Stroll was dominated by Perez in the first half of the season. The car just wasn't good enough to score regular points. As I said Stroll outscoring Perez up to the summer break is misleading in the same way as Kubica outscoring Russell. If you're defending Stroll using that statistic then you should really be doing the same for Kubica. It's just as relevant.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 592
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Perez being outscored by Stroll before the summer break is every bit as misleading as Russell getting outscored by Kubica.

When you're not in a car that consistently scores points one lucky race will distort things.

Well take away that "lucky" race that Perez binned it in then and Perez would be 7 ahead rather than Stroll 5 ahead. But still, they both finished in the points on 3 occasions. I don't think Stroll was dominated by Perez in the same way as Kubica was by Russel in the first half of the season. Not even close.

IMO, it was only the 2nd half of the season where we started to see Perez truly dominate Stroll overall in terms of results and performance. Although this forum seemed to miss that Brazil was clearly the other way round and Stroll was beating Perez all race until he had his suspension problem. He got 4 votes vs 24 for the team mate wars. 8 times as many. I think it shows that Stroll is often judged unfairly and many just seem to assume Perez is always far better. That is pretty often the case, but Stroll is sometimes closer than some realise.

Perez has still been far better than Stroll overall, but I think the first half let him down somewhat when being compared to Stroll.


Leaving aside the freak Germany result, the main difference in the second half of the season IMO is that the Racing Point chassis became good enough for Perez to convert his superiority over his teammate into points. Sergio had a lot of strong drives earlier in the year that only yielded 11th or 12th place as the chassis was so poor. Stroll was a little unfortunate to only pick up 3 PTS in the second half of the season. But he didn't deserve that many more.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JN23 and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group