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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:55 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
I think his biggest problem is he's never played with a good, experienced, reliable playmaker who can take the pressure off him. Almost every time he's played at Saints, the pressure has been on him to be the ball player, or he's been around flakes. If he'd had Nick Evans at 10 or someone like that he'd have had a much smoother development period.


Maybe, but he's also started playing at a time when the Saints midfield defensive system has been collapsing like wet paper mache.

If he'd been able to start a couple of years earlier his defensive frailties wouldn't be anywhere near as obvious and he would have been able to work out his problems without every mistake leading to a loss of 20 meters territory


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Saint wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I think his biggest problem is he's never played with a good, experienced, reliable playmaker who can take the pressure off him. Almost every time he's played at Saints, the pressure has been on him to be the ball player, or he's been around flakes. If he'd had Nick Evans at 10 or someone like that he'd have had a much smoother development period.


Maybe, but he's also started playing at a time when the Saints midfield defensive system has been collapsing like wet paper mache.

If he'd been able to start a couple of years earlier his defensive frailties wouldn't be anywhere near as obvious and he would have been able to work out his problems without every mistake leading to a loss of 20 meters territory


That's fair! I think Francis is a real coup for you guys so perhaps that'll be a big boon to him next season.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:37 am 
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I've not posted as much as I'd probably have expected on the international selections. In truth, it's because I'm rather shocked, and not sure what to say. I'm shocked Launch isn't going to the lions, I'm shocked that Taylor and Robson aren't off to Argentina, and a bit surprised that some other Wasps aren't involved in Arg.

I'm not sure what Eddie is trying to do, all I can really see is that he's seemingly managed to get almost every single vaguely promising player in the AP, involved in one camp or another. Perhaps trying to see everything that is on offer.

I can't say I think taking the Currys to Arg is a bad idea, they're both already doing so well at just 18, that they could have big futures. Equally Maunder has settled well at AP level from what we've seen. Fiji Joe has future England wing written all over him, so I can't argue that. Mallinder has class but needs to prove he can be physical in defence etc. My only concern is that England isn't where these players should be developing their skills. They should be showing effectively international ability with their clubs, that show them to basically be ready for international selection (not necessarily blow the international world away, but at least do their job effectively), rather than international potential which is attempted to be developed at international level.

Perhaps he's happy with his normal 25/26 that he's using, and confident they can go all the way to 2019, and now he's looking for players that in 3-4 years time could be capable of taking over, but as I said, I think players should show they are capable with their clubs, and then be given a shot, rather than show that they are half decent when young, but never get anywhere. A huge number of players have looked like potential rockstars as youngsters, but never really developed or improved, and especially after a 2nd or 3rd season after analysis has exposed their weaknesses no longer look like internationals in the making.

I just hope that we don't pin our future hopes on a large number of very young players, who never end up reaching the potential they showed, whilst a number of already very talented mid 20 year old players, miss out on the international exposure required to take their game to the utmost level. There's always a danger of chasing the most exciting youngster, and considering someone at 26/27 not worth considering, when in truth they could easily continue to operate at an exceptionally high level until well into their 30s.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am 
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Raggs wrote:
I've not posted as much as I'd probably have expected on the international selections. In truth, it's because I'm rather shocked, and not sure what to say. I'm shocked Launch isn't going to the lions, I'm shocked that Taylor and Robson aren't off to Argentina, and a bit surprised that some other Wasps aren't involved in Arg.

I'm not sure what Eddie is trying to do, all I can really see is that he's seemingly managed to get almost every single vaguely promising player in the AP, involved in one camp or another. Perhaps trying to see everything that is on offer.

I can't say I think taking the Currys to Arg is a bad idea, they're both already doing so well at just 18, that they could have big futures. Equally Maunder has settled well at AP level from what we've seen. Fiji Joe has future England wing written all over him, so I can't argue that. Mallinder has class but needs to prove he can be physical in defence etc. My only concern is that England isn't where these players should be developing their skills. They should be showing effectively international ability with their clubs, that show them to basically be ready for international selection (not necessarily blow the international world away, but at least do their job effectively), rather than international potential which is attempted to be developed at international level.

Perhaps he's happy with his normal 25/26 that he's using, and confident they can go all the way to 2019, and now he's looking for players that in 3-4 years time could be capable of taking over, but as I said, I think players should show they are capable with their clubs, and then be given a shot, rather than show that they are half decent when young, but never get anywhere. A huge number of players have looked like potential rockstars as youngsters, but never really developed or improved, and especially after a 2nd or 3rd season after analysis has exposed their weaknesses no longer look like internationals in the making.

I just hope that we don't pin our future hopes on a large number of very young players, who never end up reaching the potential they showed, whilst a number of already very talented mid 20 year old players, miss out on the international exposure required to take their game to the utmost level. There's always a danger of chasing the most exciting youngster, and considering someone at 26/27 not worth considering, when in truth they could easily continue to operate at an exceptionally high level until well into their 30s.



If he can find a couple of genuine superstars (like we did with Maro) then great. We are thin in the back row.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:33 am 
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Saint wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
I think his biggest problem is he's never played with a good, experienced, reliable playmaker who can take the pressure off him. Almost every time he's played at Saints, the pressure has been on him to be the ball player, or he's been around flakes. If he'd had Nick Evans at 10 or someone like that he'd have had a much smoother development period.


Maybe, but he's also started playing at a time when the Saints midfield defensive system has been collapsing like wet paper mache.

If he'd been able to start a couple of years earlier his defensive frailties wouldn't be anywhere near as obvious and he would have been able to work out his problems without every mistake leading to a loss of 20 meters territory


Defensively he seems to have - i. an issue tackling on his left shoulder - perhaps a confidence thing due to serious injuries? - and ii. he's got the turning ability of an oil tanker - someone earlier compared him to a tug-boat which has the opposite level of manoeuvrability!

Surprised Yoda hasn't explained why Ewers Williams not in given after Timmy's omission they were next cabs on the rank.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:41 am 
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According to this Daily Mail article from yesterday, the rights for the England/Argentina games haven't been picked up yet. Hopefully one of the terrestrial channels or BT will grab them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... -2021.html


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:03 am 
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Real shame no terrestrial highlights being put out on the Lions tour.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:13 am 
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Raggs wrote:
I'm not sure what Eddie is trying to do, all I can really see is that he's seemingly managed to get almost every single vaguely promising player in the AP, involved in one camp or another. Perhaps trying to see everything that is on offer.


Eddie's basically assembled a squad with a group of 28-31 year olds (Hartley, Brown, Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Mullan etc) leading a bunch of 18-21 year olds

provided it's handled properly I can see the logic and the benefits for both groups. a) the young guys get the exposure to the senior set-up in order to speed up their development, but more importantly b) the senior players have to become more vocal as leaders

I would say the latter is arguably more important. realistically only two/three of those 18-21 year olds will become England-calibre players (at least in time for 2019) but all of those senior players will probably be playing in 2019 and we surely can't remain as reliant on Hartley's captaincy by then too


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:48 am 
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Very Australian of eddie- if they're good enough they're old enough.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:08 am 
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geordie_6 wrote:
According to this Daily Mail article from yesterday, the rights for the England/Argentina games haven't been picked up yet. Hopefully one of the terrestrial channels or BT will grab them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... -2021.html

You would assume BT will pick them up, if they're still available they'll go for bugger all now as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:12 am 
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If BT do pick them up, I'd be pissed if they put them on anything other than BT Sport 1. Just have BT sports lite at the moment as all AP games used to be on BTS1 until recently.
Pain in the arse trying to run with multiple subscriptions if you don't want to deal with crappy streams.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Will Evans back in the U20 mix for the JWC. Ali Crossdale is also pretty handy and back from the injury that kept him out of the 6N

Image

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/englan ... 72121166=1


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
Will Evans back in the U20 mix for the JWC. Ali Crossdale is also pretty handy and back from the injury that kept him out of the 6N

Image

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/englan ... 72121166=1


Whats the likely 1st choice line up? Not wanting to end up in the same situation as last year with Mallinder having to play 10 they look to have included 5 flyhalves in the squad.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:14 pm 
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choc wrote:
Whats the likely 1st choice line up? Not wanting to end up in the same situation as last year with Mallinder having to play 10 they look to have included 5 flyhalves in the squad.


Um, something like this perhaps..

15. Parton/Crossdale
14. Aspland-Robinson
13. Wright
12. Butler/Umaga
11. Ibitoye
10. Malins/TBC
9. Randall
8. Mercer
7. Evans
6. Earl
5. Clegg
4. Nay
3. Knight
2. Mullis
1. Dawe

Still a decent team, despite the absences. They usually mix and match in the pool stages anyway


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Margin_Walker wrote:
choc wrote:
Whats the likely 1st choice line up? Not wanting to end up in the same situation as last year with Mallinder having to play 10 they look to have included 5 flyhalves in the squad.


Um, something like this perhaps..

15. Parton/Crossdale
14. Aspland-Robinson
13. Wright
12. Butler/Umaga
11. Ibitoye
10. Malins/TBC
9. Randall
8. Mercer
7. Evans
6. Earl
5. Clegg
4. Nay
3. Knight
2. Mullis
1. Dawe

Still a decent team, despite the absences. They usually mix and match in the pool stages anyway


They have to mix and match in the pool stages


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Petros wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:
choc wrote:
Whats the likely 1st choice line up? Not wanting to end up in the same situation as last year with Mallinder having to play 10 they look to have included 5 flyhalves in the squad.


Um, something like this perhaps..

15. Parton/Crossdale
14. Aspland-Robinson
13. Wright
12. Butler/Umaga
11. Ibitoye
10. Malins/TBC
9. Randall
8. Mercer
7. Evans
6. Earl
5. Clegg
4. Nay
3. Knight
2. Mullis
1. Dawe

Still a decent team, despite the absences. They usually mix and match in the pool stages anyway


They have to mix and match in the pool stages


Yeah, I know. Everyone gets a game


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:36 pm 
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from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:39 pm 
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TBC should think about changing his name, its a confusing set of initials


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:41 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


I think he could make it at 12. He can be useful in attack, his biggest problem was being a bit of a Mallinder in defence, however his last game, he put in two really big bonecrunching tackles, and attempted a third, could be he's turned a corner, and he also still looks like a kid, rather than a man which half the u20s do these days, oddly enough for a PI guy, I suspect he's still got a bit of muscle mass to add.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:43 pm 
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happyhooker wrote:
TBC should think about changing his name, its a confusing set of initials


His brother Ben says it's great for dating sites


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


I think he could make it at 12. He can be useful in attack, his biggest problem was being a bit of a Mallinder in defence, however his last game, he put in two really big bonecrunching tackles, and attempted a third, could be he's turned a corner, and he also still looks like a kid, rather than a man which half the u20s do these days, oddly enough for a PI guy, I suspect he's still got a bit of muscle mass to add.


He's half PI half English, which might have something to do with it


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:44 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


Yeah, agree re Umaga. Definitely a 12 for me, but was impressed by Butler, who looked an unflashy, but very tidy player.

Interestingly Theo's been playing a fair bit at 12 for LI since his return from injury and Johnny Williams being unavailable.

Has looked pretty solid there and wouldn't surprise me if he ended up there long term. He's got the size/defence for it and his distribution is very good. He's not got the best kicking game at this level though, which may hold him back long term at 10.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


I think he could make it at 12. He can be useful in attack, his biggest problem was being a bit of a Mallinder in defence, however his last game, he put in two really big bonecrunching tackles, and attempted a third, could be he's turned a corner, and he also still looks like a kid, rather than a man which half the u20s do these days, oddly enough for a PI guy, I suspect he's still got a bit of muscle mass to add.


it's not just being a Mallinder-esque fanny in defence, it's physicality in attack too. you would expect someone like Umaga to at least do a decent impression of a crash-ball centre if required but he just had no appetite for the rough stuff


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:55 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
TBC should think about changing his name, its a confusing set of initials


His brother Ben says it's great for dating sites


Image


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:55 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
happyhooker wrote:
TBC should think about changing his name, its a confusing set of initials


His brother Ben says it's great for dating sites

V good


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:56 pm 
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:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:59 pm 
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:lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:01 pm 
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My goal in life is to be as quick as JM :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Hawk97 wrote:
My goal in life is to be as quick as JM :lol:

JM says that's a shit line on dating websites


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:03 pm 
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I remember when JM meant Johnny Marrmong. Who says the bored is getting worse?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:13 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
hp18 wrote:
Are your tour games on council telly? It's quite a fascinatingly random squad selection.


Think Sky has this wrapped up but can't find confirmation

Ta. Figured it might be.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Brazil wrote:
hp18 wrote:
Are your tour games on council telly? It's quite a fascinatingly random squad selection.


f**k knows. However, since you're here, "Dug Eaters" - why?

Why not? :P


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
I remember when JM meant Johnny Marrmong. Who says the bored is getting worse?


That was a dark time.


hp18: We don't think anyone has the rights to the tour yet, which is bizarre, but there you have it


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Everybody should ignore HP until he answers the question about Dog Eaters. They should also commit to saying only positive things about Moriarty, AWJ and Dan Biggar (FFS) until that time.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:19 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
Raggs wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


I think he could make it at 12. He can be useful in attack, his biggest problem was being a bit of a Mallinder in defence, however his last game, he put in two really big bonecrunching tackles, and attempted a third, could be he's turned a corner, and he also still looks like a kid, rather than a man which half the u20s do these days, oddly enough for a PI guy, I suspect he's still got a bit of muscle mass to add.


it's not just being a Mallinder-esque fanny in defence, it's physicality in attack too. you would expect someone like Umaga to at least do a decent impression of a crash-ball centre if required but he just had no appetite for the rough stuff


He's definitely a stepper at the moment, but what exactly do you expect him to do crashball wise? He's not big enough, it would be pointless for him to try. He's looked pretty wiry in attack to me, I guess it's just a matter of waiting to see if there's going to be more muscle mass going on him, or if he's stature will potentially limit him to 10 more than 12.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Didn't everyone have to watch Arg vs England on some bizarre USA online feed before as no UK broadcaster got rights?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:24 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
I remember when JM meant Johnny Marrmong. Who says the bored is getting worse?


That was a dark time.


hp18: We don't think anyone has the rights to the tour yet, which is bizarre, but there you have it

Could be holding it back for PR reasons, timed announcement etc though would be an odd tactic.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:25 pm 
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SamShark wrote:
Didn't everyone have to watch Arg vs England on some bizarre USA online feed before as no UK broadcaster got rights?


Yep, espn something for the tests, and some crazy argentinian feed for the pampas XV I think.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
Raggs wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
from what I've seen of Umaga I'm not particularly convinced, doesn't seem to have the decision-making for a 10 or the physicality for a 12

Butler and Wright were a steady and safe pair of centres in the 6Ns, nothing particularly flashy but carried the ball well in contact and provided a target for the English forwards. I would stick with them at 12 and 13, and play Malins or TBC at 10


I think he could make it at 12. He can be useful in attack, his biggest problem was being a bit of a Mallinder in defence, however his last game, he put in two really big bonecrunching tackles, and attempted a third, could be he's turned a corner, and he also still looks like a kid, rather than a man which half the u20s do these days, oddly enough for a PI guy, I suspect he's still got a bit of muscle mass to add.


it's not just being a Mallinder-esque fanny in defence, it's physicality in attack too. you would expect someone like Umaga to at least do a decent impression of a crash-ball centre if required but he just had no appetite for the rough stuff


He's definitely a stepper at the moment, but what exactly do you expect him to do crashball wise? He's not big enough, it would be pointless for him to try. He's looked pretty wiry in attack to me, I guess it's just a matter of waiting to see if there's going to be more muscle mass going on him, or if he's stature will potentially limit him to 10 more than 12.


pretty sure Umaga is bigger than Butler, and Butler does a decent crash ball job for the U20s


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:35 pm 
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I trust u20s weights about half as much as seniors. From photos alone, Butler looks more powerfully built than Umaga.

Image

Image

Angles make it tough, but I couldn't find a photo of Umaga that made him look that big. Closest was probably here.

http://www.gettyimages.com/event/exeter ... d632913314

Like I said, I was concerned about his physicality in defence, but the last game I watched it looked like he'd been pulled up on it, and trying to fix it, some big solid hits. I don't know if he'll ever end up as a power running 12, but I don't really mind if he doesn't, if he puts on a bit more weight, he'll be functional there, and if he continues to use his feet alongside it, he'll be fine. Biggest concern for me is his defence.


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