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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:29 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:

The top 3 have had the advantage for so long now, and (safest bold prediction ever) will have again next season. Maybe 2021 will mix it up a bit, maybe not.

Yeah the grid is "closer" now than at times in the past, but.... the natural variables that mixed it up are so stretched that even small advantages are significant and consistent advantages.

I agree with you fully. You only have to look at McLaren and Williams though to see that even the biggest names (of their days) can fall from their grace. It can happen is all I'm saying


To be fair it is happening more and more across team sport.

The Champions League for example has became same old same old when it gets to the latter stages - a vast financial chasm based on geography and the haves and have nots. Plenty of huge teams across Europe left behind because of what country they are from and restricted to TV money.

I genuinely think team sport was better across the board 20-30yrs ago. Became too results focused, too professional and too money based.


Is that true?

Last year the champions league semi finalists were -

Ajax - First time since 1997
Tottenham - First time ever
Barcelona- First time since 2015
Liverpool - Repeating after reaching the final in 2018 but before that hadn't reached the later stages since 2008.

I think Badgeronimous has a point, but yes, just look at Manchester United for example, how they fell from grace. Or how Leicester won the Premiership just a few years ago. So many examples, not only in football but in many sports.


Yes. The stability we have currently F1 is pretty much unprecedented in this sport. I've said this a few times on this forum but this is the only time watching F1 that going into Australlia in 2017, 18 or 19 I could tell you not only who would be the top 3 teams for the coming season but also the season after that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I agree with you fully. You only have to look at McLaren and Williams though to see that even the biggest names (of their days) can fall from their grace. It can happen is all I'm saying


To be fair it is happening more and more across team sport.

The Champions League for example has became same old same old when it gets to the latter stages - a vast financial chasm based on geography and the haves and have nots. Plenty of huge teams across Europe left behind because of what country they are from and restricted to TV money.

I genuinely think team sport was better across the board 20-30yrs ago. Became too results focused, too professional and too money based.


Is that true?

Last year the champions league semi finalists were -

Ajax - First time since 1997
Tottenham - First time ever
Barcelona- First time since 2015
Liverpool - Repeating after reaching the final in 2018 but before that hadn't reached the later stages since 2008.

I think Badgeronimous has a point, but yes, just look at Manchester United for example, how they fell from grace. Or how Leicester won the Premiership just a few years ago. So many examples, not only in football but in many sports.


Yes. The stability we have currently F1 is pretty much unprecedented in this sport. I've said this a few times on this forum but this is the only time watching F1 that going into Australlia in 2017, 18 or 19 I could tell you not only who would be the top 3 teams for the coming season but also the season after that.

Very true. Not even in the Ferrari '00 domination years could you do that, 2003 and 2005 would not have been an easy guess after the slaughters of 2002 and 2004. But a lot more rule changes happened back then from memory than now, so there's that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:12 pm 
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Posts: 16668
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:

To be fair it is happening more and more across team sport.

The Champions League for example has became same old same old when it gets to the latter stages - a vast financial chasm based on geography and the haves and have nots. Plenty of huge teams across Europe left behind because of what country they are from and restricted to TV money.

I genuinely think team sport was better across the board 20-30yrs ago. Became too results focused, too professional and too money based.


Is that true?

Last year the champions league semi finalists were -

Ajax - First time since 1997
Tottenham - First time ever
Barcelona- First time since 2015
Liverpool - Repeating after reaching the final in 2018 but before that hadn't reached the later stages since 2008.

I think Badgeronimous has a point, but yes, just look at Manchester United for example, how they fell from grace. Or how Leicester won the Premiership just a few years ago. So many examples, not only in football but in many sports.


Yes. The stability we have currently F1 is pretty much unprecedented in this sport. I've said this a few times on this forum but this is the only time watching F1 that going into Australlia in 2017, 18 or 19 I could tell you not only who would be the top 3 teams for the coming season but also the season after that.

Very true. Not even in the Ferrari '00 domination years could you do that, 2003 and 2005 would not have been an easy guess after the slaughters of 2002 and 2004. But a lot more rule changes happened back then from memory than now, so there's that.


the Tech regulations were pretty static between 98-04. The sporting regulations obviously changed in 03.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:25 am 
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I've thought about it a lot, and wondering if it is looking back through rose tinted glasses, but I don't think it is.

Motorsport was better 20-25yrs ago.

F1 was better - although far from a golden era
BTCC was better
DTM was better
WRC was better
Cart/Indycar was better
LeMans was better

Even things like the British Rally Championship, Superbikes, etc. All better and had a following. Those were just the series I watched.

MotoGP has maintained itself well and is about the only one that has.

I ask myself what has changed? WRC and BTCC are pale imitations these days - WRC especially as it should be a huge championship. But..... nobody wants to see Hyundai hot hatches rally about - no kid has these on their bedroom walls (or phone screen wallpaper). Same with BTCC, the cars are uninspired, un-iconic and drivers nearly all pay for seats.

For F1, I just feel let down as a fan. The 2010's should have been a golden era for the sport - the grid in 2010 was one of the strongest ever in front end talent - but the era delivered stagnation, predictability and really was nothing like the golden era it should have been.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:17 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I've thought about it a lot, and wondering if it is looking back through rose tinted glasses, but I don't think it is.

Motorsport was better 20-25yrs ago.

F1 was better - although far from a golden era

I have to disagree with this. 20-25 years ago means 1995-2000, and during those years:

a) There was a single driver who was obviously the best, unlike the situation we have now with multiple top quality talents (at least Max and Lewis, and potentially Leclerc as well). The only reason most of the years were close is that Michael spent most of them in an inferior car.
b) No more than two teams ever fought for the championship in a single year, and for 1995 and 1996 it was only one. In 1997, 1998 and 1999, one car had a significant advantage but a slower driver in it.

I really don't see an objective way in which the late 90s were any better than what we have now. There was more unreliability to randomize the results, but that's about it. Find a midfield podium in the 90s, and I guarantee it was brought about by reliability.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:29 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I've thought about it a lot, and wondering if it is looking back through rose tinted glasses, but I don't think it is.

Motorsport was better 20-25yrs ago.

F1 was better - although far from a golden era

I have to disagree with this. 20-25 years ago means 1995-2000, and during those years:

a) There was a single driver who was obviously the best, unlike the situation we have now with multiple top quality talents (at least Max and Lewis, and potentially Leclerc as well). The only reason most of the years were close is that Michael spent most of them in an inferior car.
b) No more than two teams ever fought for the championship in a single year, and for 1995 and 1996 it was only one. In 1997, 1998 and 1999, one car had a significant advantage but a slower driver in it.

I really don't see an objective way in which the late 90s were any better than what we have now. There was more unreliability to randomize the results, but that's about it. Find a midfield podium in the 90s, and I guarantee it was brought about by reliability.


I don't agree. Schumacher was the best driver but not in the best car which kept things interesting and there was way more unpredictability. There were loads of occasions when a midfield car hit the podium and not just due to reliability. Check out the 97 season. I mean, obviously it depends what you call midfield but Benetton whose drivers averaged a grid positions of something like 9th and 11th won a race and scored other podiums on merit in Brazil and Italy. McLaren, 4th in the WCC won 3 races. Jordan finished 5th in the WCC and competed for race wins on merit in Argentina and Germany. Pan is scored legitimate podiums in the Prost in Brazil and Spain.

As a fan at the time I found F1 a lot more entertaining then than it is today.

This time of year in the late 90s I wouldn't have been able to confidently predict the top 3 teams for the upcoming season. I could have told you the 3 for this year 12 months ago.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:01 am 
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I don't think the late 90s was better quality, but it was more interesting. Performance was nowhere near as locked in as today.

As said as a fan I'm just frustrated, most of the things I used to enjoy in motorsport are either not very good any more, or don't exist.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:27 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I've thought about it a lot, and wondering if it is looking back through rose tinted glasses, but I don't think it is.

Motorsport was better 20-25yrs ago.

F1 was better - although far from a golden era
BTCC was better
DTM was better
WRC was better
Cart/Indycar was better
LeMans was better

Even things like the British Rally Championship, Superbikes, etc. All better and had a following. Those were just the series I watched.

MotoGP has maintained itself well and is about the only one that has.

I ask myself what has changed? WRC and BTCC are pale imitations these days - WRC especially as it should be a huge championship. But..... nobody wants to see Hyundai hot hatches rally about - no kid has these on their bedroom walls (or phone screen wallpaper). Same with BTCC, the cars are uninspired, un-iconic and drivers nearly all pay for seats.

For F1, I just feel let down as a fan. The 2010's should have been a golden era for the sport - the grid in 2010 was one of the strongest ever in front end talent - but the era delivered stagnation, predictability and really was nothing like the golden era it should have been.

In respect to F1 I very much believe it's rose tinted glasses, F1 has history for being boring, no overtaking etc.

However 20/25 years ago we didn't have the internet for people to complain about things.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I don't think the late 90s was better quality, but it was more interesting. Performance was nowhere near as locked in as today.

As said as a fan I'm just frustrated, most of the things I used to enjoy in motorsport are either not very good any more, or don't exist.

It's basically become far more professional, some things that happened that long ago would seem somewhat amatuerist today.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:23 pm 
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I wouldnt say F1 was better in the late 90's than now. It was up until about 1992. After that the huge technical advancements brought about by CAD, windtunnels etc sent costs through the roof and reduced F1 entries from 30+ per race to 20. That was the tipping point between an era where small outfits could hope to compete with the big teams, and the current era where it's a struggle to fill a 20-car grid. There are no small teams any more - just huge ones and gigantic ones by the standards of those times.

Relating that to the subject of this thread; larger grids with poorer reliability gives more unpredictability. Even if it's always the same teams at the front small teams could hope for the odd point (and that was when only the top 6 scored points).


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