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Rank the drivers in order of ability
Rank the drivers in order of ability at F1 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Albon 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Albon_1 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Albon_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Albon_3 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Albon_4 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Bottas_1 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Bottas_2 2%  2%  [ 28 ]
Bottas_3 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Bottas_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Gasly_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Gasly_2 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Gasly_3 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Gasly_4 1%  1%  [ 10 ]
Giovianzzi 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Giovianzzi_1 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Giovianzzi_2 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Giovianzzi_3 1%  1%  [ 8 ]
Giovianzzi_4 2%  2%  [ 28 ]
Grosjean 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Grosjean_1 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Grosjean_2 1%  1%  [ 9 ]
Grosjean_3 1%  1%  [ 9 ]
Grosjean_4 2%  2%  [ 27 ]
Hamilton 2%  2%  [ 34 ]
Hamilton_1 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Hamilton_2 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Hulkenberg_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Hulkenberg_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Hulkenberg_3 2%  2%  [ 29 ]
Hulkenberg_4 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Kubica 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Kubica_1 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Kubica_2 2%  2%  [ 33 ]
Kubica_3 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Kubica_4 2%  2%  [ 34 ]
Kyvat 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Kyvat_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Kyvat_2 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Kyvat_3 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Kyvat_4 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Leclerc 2%  2%  [ 27 ]
Leclerc_1 2%  2%  [ 27 ]
Leclerc_2 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Leclerc_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Magnussen_1 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Magnussen_2 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Magnussen_3 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Magnussen_4 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Norris 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_1 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Norris_2 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Norris_3 2%  2%  [ 31 ]
Norris_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Perez 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Perez_1 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Perez_2 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Perez_3 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Perez_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Raikkonen 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Raikkonen_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Raikkonen_2 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Raikkonen_3 2%  2%  [ 29 ]
Raikkonen_4 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Ricciardo_1 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Ricciardo_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Ricciardo_3 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Ricciardo_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Russell 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Russell_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Russell_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Russell_3 2%  2%  [ 27 ]
Russell_4 0%  0%  [ 6 ]
Sainz 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Sainz_1 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Sainz_2 2%  2%  [ 26 ]
Sainz_3 1%  1%  [ 10 ]
Sainz_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 2%  2%  [ 26 ]
Stroll_1 2%  2%  [ 28 ]
Stroll_2 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Stroll_3 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Stroll_4 2%  2%  [ 32 ]
Verstappen 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Verstappen_1 2%  2%  [ 33 ]
Verstappen_2 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Verstappen_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Verstappen_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Vettel_1 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Vettel_2 2%  2%  [ 29 ]
Vettel_3 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Vettel_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 1548
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:57 pm 
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As the final race of the season has now been completed, it is time for the end of season "Rank the drivers" poll.

The purpose of this poll is to rank the drivers in order of ability. It's not to rank their performance this season (I will run a poll for that later) - the purpose is purely in what order do you rank the drivers ability at Formula 1, from best to worst.

Here is a link to the previous poll, from the summer - so we can see how things change:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15559

How to use the poll
To add a driver to the list, click on their name in the left column and it will move to the right hand column below whichever driver is highlighted in blue (obviously, in the empty list it just gets added in position 1)

To remove a driver from the list, click on the x by their name. To change the driver you are adding after, click on the driver in the right hand list and they will be turned blue. To insert a driver at the top, click on the right hand column header.

Note, you must have ranked all items in the poll to be able to vote and you cannot rank things 'equal'


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:01 pm 
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Eh. Tried to vote but it didn't seem to work. Did I do something wrong? Can't vote now it seems...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:04 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Eh. Tried to vote but it didn't seem to work. Did I do something wrong? Can't vote now it seems...

Ah, there appears to be an error. I will lock the thread and investigate.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Ok, it should be fixed...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:30 pm 
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What I think -

Here is how I voted in the poll:



















1Hamilton
2Verstappen
3Ricciardo
4Leclerc
5Vettel
6Perez
7Bottas
8Hulkenberg
9Sainz
10Norris
11Russell
12Raikkonen
13Albon
14Grosjean
15Magnussen
16Gasly
17Giovianzzi
18Kyvat
19Stroll
20Kubica


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:42 pm 
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My list is pretty similar:

I've grouped my gold / silver / bronze tiers as well.



















1Hamilton
2Verstappen
3Ricciardo
4Leclerc
5Bottas
6Vettel
7Sainz
8Perez
9Hulkenberg
10Raikkonen
11Norris
12Russell
13Kyvat
14Albon
15Magnussen
16Gasly
17Giovianzzi
18Grosjean
19Stroll
20Kubica


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:49 pm 
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Tier 1
Hamilton
Verstappen

Tier 2
Bottas
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Vettel
Sainz
Perez

Tier 3
Russell
Hulkenberg
Norris

Tier 4
Raikkonen
Albon
Grosjean
Gasly
Magnussen
Kvyat

Tier 5
Giovinazzi
Stroll

Tier 6
Kubica

EDIT: moved Perez to Tier 2.


Last edited by Invade on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:54 pm 
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Couple of notes.

There is a big gap between Lewis+Max and the rest. There is no standout candidate for third position. My group of five drivers in Tier 2 all performed similarly well in my view and there's no obvious separation between them, but none of the group come remotely close to the sustained excellence achieved by the two best drivers on the grid. Bottas looks severely overshadowed because he's dealing with one of the highest ATGs at the top of his game in Hamilton, and Verstappen is annihilating his teammates, no matter who it is. Given that the Ferrari pair were spotty and that Ferrari underperformed, I think there's a fair argument for Bottas to be considered the third best driver of the season, but then again he can easily be placed as low as 7th or 8th.

My spreadsheets came up with the following scores for the top 6 cars for the season (won't include Gasly/Albon for now because lazy)...

Hamilton: 6.00 (Hamilton wins by virtue of having more scores of 7+ .. maximum score is 8 )
Verstappen: 6.00
Bottas: 5.00
Leclerc: 4.95
Vettel: 4.85

It's not important that you know how this works. I'm just presenting this to give a snapshot impression of how I gauged the performance of these drivers race by race through the season. Those are the results. Averaging 6+ is extremely hard and is a loose threshold in my system for sustained excellence.. (say 5.80 and higher or so).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:05 pm 
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I'm very similar. :)

mikeyg123 wrote:
What I think -

Here is how I voted in the poll:



















1Hamilton -
2Verstappen -
3Ricciardo -
4Leclerc -
5Vettel -
6Perez -1
7Bottas +1
8Hulkenberg -
9Sainz -1
10Norris -1
11Russell +2
12Raikkonen -
13Albon -1
14Grosjean -2
15Magnussen +2
16Gasly +1
17Giovianzzi -1
18Kyvat +1
19Stroll -
20Kubica -

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:15 pm 
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It's a bit difficult to work the Williams drivers in there since they were really only being compared to each other.

Tier 1
Hamilton
Verstappen
Leclerc

Tier 2
Ricciardo
Vettel
Bottas
Sainz

Tier 3
Raikkonen
Perez
Norris
Russell
Albon

Tier 4
Hulkenberg
Magnussen
Grosjean

Tier 5
Giovinazzi
Gasly
Stroll
Kvyat
Kubica

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Pick 10: 1 win, 8 podiums | 2016: 22nd | 2017: 21st | 2018: 3rd |
Top Three: 9 wins, 26 podiums | 2016: 9th [6th] | 2017: 16th [6th] | 2018: 4th [4th] |


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:42 am 
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My list isn't too far off the consensus:

Tier 1 - Unquestioned class-leading pace
Hamilton
Verstappen

Tier 1.5 - Only a smidgen off the best
Leclerc (*)
Ricciardo

Tier 2 - Close, but not within touching distance of the best
Vettel
Sainz
Bottas
Perez

Tier 3 - Solid F1 drivers who deserve their place on the grid
Hulkenberg
Raikkonen
Russell (*)
Norris (*)
Albon (*)

Tier 3.5 - The Bubble
Magnussen
Gasly

Tier 4 - The Broken Men of F1
Grosjean
Kyvat
Giovianzzi (*)
Stroll

Tier 5 - GP2 pace; GP2. AAaargh!
Kubica

The (*) star markings denote drives who I think haven't necessarily found their level yet, and have potential to move up a tier.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:56 am 
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Yeah - Leclerc has ascended quickly and still has lots of room to grow. Considering he's been in the sport for two years, his peak level is exceptional in qualifying, and on his day in the races he is also very quick. But that's where his real work needs to be done next season, especially regarding consistent race pace, and also to take matters more into his own hands at time to ensure he can't be snagged at the last as he was by Max in Austria.

It's taken Verstappen until his 5th season to reach something approaching his prime/peak in speed and consistency. I don't expect Leclerc to stop growing any time soon and think he will be seen in that very top echelon before too long.

I would contest the idea however that after a certain point the level of a driver becomes more or less static. It is usually the case taken as an average but often I feel we should allow for greater variance of form season on season rather than stick so rigidly to established baselines and that ascending or declining a half tier or a tier can happen even after years of experience in the game. And of course, drastic new regs can somewhat shake up the order of things.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Would be awesome if you could drag your picks up and down the list, currently the only way to insert a choice in the middle of the list is to remove all the picks below it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:02 pm 
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I'm baffled that many people seem to think Sainz is a fair bit better than Perez. Perez has done what Sainz has this season on a few occasions himself and beat Hulkenberg whilst Sainz lost to him.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:54 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


Yes but the vote isn't based on this season alone.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:11 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


Yes but the vote isn't based on this season alone.

Well the poll is how you rate them right now, so this season's performance will play a large part in that. But clearly, some drivers have underperformed - so it's not the be all and end all.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


Yes but the vote isn't based on this season alone.

Well the poll is how you rate them right now, so this season's performance will play a large part in that. But clearly, some drivers have underperformed - so it's not the be all and end all.


Yes I agree the most recent seasons will obviously have a higher weighting.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


Yes but the vote isn't based on this season alone.


For me it mostly was.

My rating is a 2019 rating. I appreciate there is SOME residue in which I have to use past performance as indicators, for guidance, but I'm using a very heavy 2019 season weighting, otherwise of course Bottas wouldn't be third on my list. And this is why I added comments on how it is worth considering not being so rigid with judgment by relying too much on established baselines for drivers. Bottas eking out an arguable third is a product of Ferrari woes and no standout third best on the grid. Sainz' performance has question marks given his rookie teammate. Perez kind of had a season of two halves. It's been hard for Ricciardo and Hulkenberg to shine against each other, and mistakes were made. And so it goes.

I would swing some of my ranking even further probably for a strict 2019 season ranking.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:46 pm 
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Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


Yes but the vote isn't based on this season alone.


For me it mostly was.

My rating is a 2019 rating. I appreciate there is SOME residue in which I have to use past performance as indicators, for guidance, but I'm using a very heavy 2019 season weighting, otherwise of course Bottas wouldn't be third on my list. And this is why I added comments on how it is worth considering not being so rigid with judgment by relying too much on established baselines for drivers. Bottas eking out an arguable third is a product of Ferrari woes and no standout third best on the grid. Sainz' performance has question marks given his rookie teammate. Perez kind of had a season of two halves. It's been hard for Ricciardo and Hulkenberg to shine against each other, and mistakes were made. And so it goes.

I would swing some of my ranking even further probably for a strict 2019 season ranking.


Each to their own I guess.

I think I look as if I was a team boss and was looking to pick drivers based purely on who I think would get me most points in the coming season who would I pick. And I guess I still think Perez would score me more points than Sainz.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.


Yes but the vote isn't based on this season alone.


For me it mostly was.

My rating is a 2019 rating. I appreciate there is SOME residue in which I have to use past performance as indicators, for guidance, but I'm using a very heavy 2019 season weighting, otherwise of course Bottas wouldn't be third on my list. And this is why I added comments on how it is worth considering not being so rigid with judgment by relying too much on established baselines for drivers. Bottas eking out an arguable third is a product of Ferrari woes and no standout third best on the grid. Sainz' performance has question marks given his rookie teammate. Perez kind of had a season of two halves. It's been hard for Ricciardo and Hulkenberg to shine against each other, and mistakes were made. And so it goes.

I would swing some of my ranking even further probably for a strict 2019 season ranking.


Each to their own I guess.

I think I look as if I was a team boss and was looking to pick drivers based purely on who I think would get me most points in the coming season who would I pick. And I guess I still think Perez would score me more points than Sainz.



I'm not sure who I'd pick there. They are both smart point hoovers. I'll shift Perez into the same tier as Sainz however because on further reflection I don't think there is clear separation... their names are next to each other in my list after all.

If I was a team boss right now, it would be extremely difficult for me to make a choice, no question. I'd see Sainz as a strong force still rising, giving him the benefit of the doubt regarding some of the questionable context of his performance. I'd see Perez as a known entity, a strong driver, who also might be more disruptive than Sainz when faced with intrateam competition, but a proven podium getter and race maximiser.

With say, Bottas and Vettel, it might be flattering to Bottas, but at this point we have two seasons of evidence in which Vettel has shown himself to be error prone and how long does he need to produce a relatively mediocre performance by his standards (I might have been too generous even in my ranking of him) for him to not get a pass for being a 4xWDC? The feeling with Bottas is different. He isn't young, yet drivers reach their best at different times and he's in a very open environment where he continues to learn and improve, and after a poor 2018 season he's probably produced a better season then either of the Ferrari drivers, yet based on the pedigree Vettel has and the assumptions of stardom attached to Leclerc this will probably be a minority opinion because a history of performance can obscure a. current performance and b. trending performance. In short, I think Bottas has rounded into his prime and is now at his best, whereas Vettel has declined, and on trend they are of a similar level now, along with Leclerc based on his very short history. Naturally, I'm sure many of us expect Leclerc has more room for growth than either Bottas or Vettel.

By pedigree, perhaps we give Hamilton the benefit of the doubt over Verstappen. For an absolute 2019 rating, perhaps many will place Verstappen ahead of Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:20 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.

That was all done to the car not being great in the first half of the season.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.

That was all done to the car not being great in the first half of the season.


Stroll was driving the same car though.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Driver A beats driver B when teammates, driver B moves to another team were he ends up in a better car than what driver A has and beats driver A, driver B is now seen as a better driver than drive A. :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Yes most appear to have Sainz above Hulkenberg right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:33 pm 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.

That was all done to the car not being great in the first half of the season.


Stroll was driving the same car though.

...and was getting beat by Perez but unfortunately in many of the races the car was incapable of scoring points, Stroll fluking a 4th place in Germany along with a car that struggled to score points helped to keep the points scored close.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:35 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Yes most appear to have Sainz above Hulkenberg right now.

Which shows a big weighting towards the car.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Perez had a great second half of the season but was somewhat anonymous in the first.

That was all done to the car not being great in the first half of the season.


Stroll was driving the same car though.

...and was getting beat by Perez but unfortunately in many of the races the car was incapable of scoring points, Stroll fluking a 4th place in Germany along with a car that struggled to score points helped to keep the points scored close.



Perez outclassed Stroll, but far more thoroughly in the second half of the season. Never has Stroll really been better than Perez though for any sustained period of time, of course. I have Stroll as one of the worst drivers on the grid.

pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Yes most appear to have Sainz above Hulkenberg right now.

Which shows a big weighting towards the car.


Yes I think having an able car and also having a weaker teammate increases the likelihood of being held in a good light. I'm sure Ricciardo will appear quite low in pure 2019 season ratings when that poll comes, yet perhaps he was one of the strongest drivers in the season and Hulkenberg is being underappreciated. Ultimately with Hulkenberg I find it hard to eradicate the fact he didn't achieve a single podium with ample opportunity. He's more deserving of a podium than some other drivers who do have one but over a pretty long career now, to not get it done with the opportunities he's had seems to have tainted my opinion on him generally.

Bottas is in the best car and lo and behold I suddenly think on form he's one of the best drivers on the grid, but perhaps there's something to also be said for being given such an opportunity and then rising to the occasion and growing in an environment which allows a driver to tap into their best potential. But then maybe as soon as he ends up in a Ricciardo type situation his stock will simply plummet in the estimation of many because he's in a worse car and won't be up against a teammate seen as a giant, giving him no room to hide if he isn't always on the level of his teammate.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:51 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Yes most appear to have Sainz above Hulkenberg right now.

I have Perez two places higher than Sainz.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:35 pm 
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Sainz against Norris is an interesting battle. Sainz has been very strong the second half of the season which could suggest he may have been holding a few aces up his sleeve from the practice sessions – as I bet many drivers do when in a close team mate battle. Norris does not strike me as being very political, but I’m sure he’ll develop in that area over the next few years. If the gap between them remains close, he’ll have to try and find a competitive edge, which will have a slight impact on the overall team performance. Definitely one to watch.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:14 pm 
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Right I put this off because I knew it was going to be a long post, I normally do this for the top 10 but as I've now had to list a top 20 here goes.

1. Lewis Hamilton - Now a 6 time world champion and I think he made the fewest mistakes of the top drivers, I also believe he achieved the most amount of wins for a driver not qualifying on pole? Hamilton is a driver with no real weakness that relates to his driving ability be it qualifying, race speed, race craft or wet weather driving, perhaps the only weakness might be in the ability to read a race from the cockpit in terms of race strategy?

2. Max Verstappen - Again a driver with no real weakness that relates to his driving ability, if I compare him with Hamilton maybe he's slightly quicker in 1 lap qualifying, race speed it's hard to measure, wet weather ability I feel Hamilton has the edge, I would be guessing seeing how the poll is going that it's mainly race craft that edges the voting to Hamilton but this is an area that Verstappen improved upon this year. In terms of Verstappen's ability to read a race I think that's something he perhaps doesn't have to think that much about because of Red Bull's superior pit wall, the bottom line for Verstappen is that he finished 3rd in the WDC in the 3rd best car.

3. Daniel Ricciardo - The positions 3-5 I view the drivers as being very close but a notch down from the top 2 drivers, if you like a tier 1.5, drivers that are good enough to be a #1 driver in a top team but ultimately not the best. I've gone for Ricciardo because I believe in the Ferrari he would have made fewer mistakes than their drivers, he's shown in the past driving for Red Bull when they've had a top 3 car he's very consistent.

4. Charles Leclerc - Nothing much to choose between him and Vettel but you have to bear in mind that Leclerc edged out Vettel in qualifying and in the title race.

5. Sebastian Vettel - Given his greater experience he should have really beat Leclerc, he may have had more mechanical issues but he also had the benefit of team orders early in the season and the errors again were not good, I think he made slightly more than Leclerc? But you kind of expect errors from Leclerc but for Vettel now it's become something that consistently puts him at the bottom of the top drivers. In the races themselves he is often quick, I think he edged Leclerc in that respect but just too may errors.

6. Valterri Bottas - Now we are into the tier 2 drivers, for convenience sake I will list them 6-10, these are drivers that I would consider would make decent #2 drivers in a top team, outside the top 10 are drivers that I start to consider as just making up the numbers. For me Bottas is the strongest qualifier of the tier 2 drivers, race pace and race craft is harder to quantify, I guess he's kind of proven his quality by continuing to be employed by Mercedes were he's not exactly getting completely destroyed by Hamilton.

7. Sergio Perez - I guess the opposite of Bottas he's not a bad qualifier but not the best of qualifiers either however he makes up for that in his midfield battles with his race pace and racecraft. I'm not sure how that would translate to a top team though, qualifying on the back foot is harder to make up against harder competition.

8. Nico Hulkenberg - For many years a top quality tier 2 driver but never got a chance in a top team but this year he got his chance against a top driver and what did we find out? That the Hulk is a tier 2 driver that would make a solid #2 driver in a top team. The Hulk is one of the fastest tier 2 drivers in qualifying but Ricciardo beat him reasonably easy on that score and also had him beat on WDC points.

9. George Russell - I guess this is slightly controversial, I have him higher than most, but here is a driver that trod the same path as Leclerc, a back to back rookie champion in GP3 and F2, and quite a convincing champion to boot both times. Then same as Leclerc managed to destroy his teammate as a F1 rookie, however he didn't have the fortune of having a car that could qualify into Q3 on occasion, the car couldn't even qualify into Q2, and this shows how much perception can belong to the car as well.

10. Carlos Sainz - Even more controversy as people rave on about Sainz I kind of think what really happened apart from him having a better car? I didn't have Sainz in my top 10 last year even though I didn't think he was a bad driver as such, but the first time he went up against a top 10 driver he got beat. Now in the 4th best car and with a rookie teammate to compare against were he was less than a tenth quicker, he gets vaulted up the rankings, I'm not so sure about that?

11. Lando Norris - A lot of credit has to be given to Norris as a rookie to be less than a tenth slower than Sainz in qualifying and he lost a lot of points through bad luck so should have finished higher in the WDC. But then again I have him lower than most because I'm seeing just how good his car was.

12. Kimi Raikkonen - The racecraft is still there but the pace maybe not so much in particular in qualifying, the last time he was able to show a clean pair of heels to a teammate in qualifying was Montoya in 2006, however he's shown given the car he's still a reliable points scorer.

13. Kevin Magnussen - I wouldn't be a big fan of KMag because of his dubious driving at times, this year you have to credit him with beating his teammate beyond that what more could he achieve in a car that come race day was terrible.

14. Alexander Albon - As a rookie I would say he's done reasonably alright, he was matching Kvyat at STR before his promotion to Red Bull, then at Red Bull he's doing better than what Gasly was doing but also like Gasly he's miles off the pace of Verstappen.

15. Pierre Gasly - He was performing terribly at Red Bull and quite rightly got demoted to STR from were he almost immediately started to look much better than Kvyat but how big of a scalp is that to take?

16. Romain Grosjean - On his day he can be really quick but you're not looking really quick if you get beat by your teammate. Then you factor in his age, his terrible racecraft, the comedic errors and you have to wonder why he's still in F1?

17. Daniil Kvyat - It was beginning to look like an Indian summer for Kvyat, a more mature improved Kvyat edging out his rookie teammate and then getting the podium in the farcical race in Germany on the weekend that he had his first child, he was very much on the up. Then we have the Red Bull musical chairs and he starts to get thrashed in qualifying by Gasly and you start asking will next season in F1 be his last?

18. Antonio Giovinazzi - You always have to give some leeway to rookies, to his credit he did match Kimi in qualifying although the races themselves were a different matter. He sometimes makes silly errors but then again like I said he is a rookie but I'm just not sure about him as a long term prospect in F1, let's see what next year brings?

19. Lance Stroll - Apparently for some Stroll improved this year because he didn't get thrashed by Perez as badly as they thought he would. However he still got thrashed and let's not forget this is Stroll's 3rd season in F1, without his Father's money Stroll would no longer be in F1. However you have to respect Lawrence Stroll's investment in F1 which is to the betterment of F1 and it's his wish to have his son drive for his team.

20. Robert Kubica - The fairy tale is over and it had a sad ending, a once great driver saddled with a disability, at his best Kubica would no doubt had made the top 6.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Driver A beats driver B when teammates, driver B moves to another team were he ends up in a better car than what driver A has and beats driver A, driver B is now seen as a better driver than drive A. :)


Exactly. All these people that are rating Sainz highly are being pretty short-sighted really.

Other than Kyvat, (who even Gasly can beat), Sainz has always lost to all the known quantities he has faced in the past, including Hulkenberg who is on his way out of the sport for not being good enough.

But then he beats an unknown quantity in Norris and suddenly he is deemed to have improved leaps and bounds from the past.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that, Norris could just be another Albon/Gasly/Kyvat for all we know.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:26 pm 
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1: Hamilton - Clearly the best, as he doesn't make many mistakes and is super fast
2: Verstappen - His time will come
3: Leclerc - Was unlucky and lost points through his own mistakes, but he will come good as the speed is there
4: Bottas - Did well to come 2nd in the WDC and outqualified Lewis a bit more often than I expected
5: Ricciardo - Showing that he's a solid pair of hands
6: Vettel - I think he's losing it as a top driver now
7: Russell - Hard to judge but he could be a star of the future and can only beat what is in front of him
8: Perez - A very solid driver for sure
9: Raikkonen - Occasionally he showed that the old man has still got it in him
10: Hulkenberg - Kind of unlucky to run out of seats but he won't be missed
11: Magnussen - A solid midfield driver but nothing special
12: Sainz - A solid midfield driver but nothing special
13: Norris - Disappointed with this guy, he's not cut out for the sharp end of F1 I don't think, but could make it as a midfielder
14: Grosjean - Hard to judge him in the midfield but he occasionally looks ok
15: Stroll - Just a boring pay driver to me
16: Albon - I think I've said enough on this guy
17: Giovinazzi - He's just keeping the seat warm for Schumacher
18: Gasly - He's like a worse version of Albon
19: Kyvat - He's like a worse version of Gasly
20: Kubica - Must be hard with his injury, but in an absolute sense he was super slow out there


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:49 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
17: Giovinazzi - He's just keeping the seat warm for Schumacher

While that may be true from a political point of view, everything I've seen in F2 suggests that Mick is no better than GIO. In his rookie (and only) season in GP2, Giovinazzi finished second, beating all of the experienced drivers in the field and narrowly losing out on the title. Mick finished 12th, beating only the most useless of the experienced drivers -- Sean Gelael.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:25 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
17: Giovinazzi - He's just keeping the seat warm for Schumacher

While that may be true from a political point of view, everything I've seen in F2 suggests that Mick is no better than GIO. In his rookie (and only) season in GP2, Giovinazzi finished second, beating all of the experienced drivers in the field and narrowly losing out on the title. Mick finished 12th, beating only the most useless of the experienced drivers -- Sean Gelael.

Yeah it's quite sad, Giovinazzi may be keeping the seat warm for Schumacher but he's probably also the better driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:21 pm 
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Things might not be so easy for Schumacher. They have a lot of drivers at that level now. If that Russian lad comes in and has a great rookie year they may have a problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Things might not be so easy for Schumacher. They have a lot of drivers at that level now. If that Russian lad comes in and has a great rookie year they may have a problem.

It actually took me a while to figure out who you meant -- for whatever reason, I never realized Shwartzman is Russian! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Things might not be so easy for Schumacher. They have a lot of drivers at that level now. If that Russian lad comes in and has a great rookie year they may have a problem.

Well something seems to have happened with the F1 super license rules which I wasn't aware of, I'm sure the points are only valid for the previous 3 years, now it appears once you acquire the required number of points then that lasts for 3 years. So rather than having lost his F1 super license points because his points In F4 no longer count, his license now counts until 2021 so he can afford to have another disastrous season in F2, I'm pretty sure he only got 30 points for winning Euro F3, not to be confused with the present F3.

I feel there is a mechanism in place to get Mick Schumacher into F1 because I'm sure some sleight of hand has taken place with the points, that being true then it's rubbered stamped for Schumacher to be in F1 regardless of how he performs in F2.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Things might not be so easy for Schumacher. They have a lot of drivers at that level now. If that Russian lad comes in and has a great rookie year they may have a problem.

It actually took me a while to figure out who you meant -- for whatever reason, I never realized Shwartzman is Russian! :lol:

I know it does sound German. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:14 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Driver A beats driver B when teammates, driver B moves to another team were he ends up in a better car than what driver A has and beats driver A, driver B is now seen as a better driver than drive A. :)


Exactly. All these people that are rating Sainz highly are being pretty short-sighted really.

Other than Kyvat, (who even Gasly can beat), Sainz has always lost to all the known quantities he has faced in the past, including Hulkenberg who is on his way out of the sport for not being good enough.

But then he beats an unknown quantity in Norris and suddenly he is deemed to have improved leaps and bounds from the past.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that, Norris could just be another Albon/Gasly/Kyvat for all we know.


Who was it who had ranked Sainz 3rd in the best drivers of 2019? Was it Rosberg?

When Checo was best of the rest in 2016 & 17, it wasn't as obvious because the Force India car then too wasn't as good. Sainz, on the other hand, has a very good McLaren under him. It's clearly the 4th best car on most of the tracks, all thanks to a splendid chassis & downforce.

Sainz is good but most of his performances are down to how good the McLaren is. Checo being in a similar position a few years back was more noteworthy as Force India has never been known to have a good chassis. It was kinder on tyres.

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