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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

No clearly it was said that Hamilton shouldn't have been allowed to keep his pole position with no reference to other drivers or did I misread?

Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.

I didn't see much of a back down after it was explained that other drivers were doing the same and the track limits were not being policed.

You can't be asking for lap times to be deleted when drivers are not breaking any rules.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.

Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:34 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.

I didn't see much of a back down after it was explained that other drivers were doing the same and the track limits were not being policed.

You can't be asking for lap times to be deleted when drivers are not breaking any rules.

Let me help you with that, this is what Fiki wrote:

Fiki wrote:
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?



Crystal clear that he is not aiming at Hamilton, which ever way anyone may want to read this...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:



Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Like the one that says that they should stick within the track limits?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:



Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Pretty sure there is a rule that says you have to use the actual track. If there isn't then obviously there should be.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.
According to the official Race Director's Event Notes, there was no corner where it was specifically allowed to go off track. Any excursion at the corners named was to be finished by rejoining as prescribed in the document. Just for the sake of avoiding doubt and time loss; the final corner was number 21.
FIA Race Director Event Notes wrote:
12) Track Limits
12.1 Support Category Pit Exit – Entry to Turn 11
a) The dotted white line across the pit exit of the support category pit lane is the track edge.
12.2 Turns 11, 12 and 13
a) For safety reasons, any driver who either passes to the right of or runs over the fluorescent orange kerb sections on the driver’s right between Turns 11 and 12, must re-join the track by driving around the end of the fluorescent orange kerb and bollard on the driver’s left between Turns 12 and 13.
b) In the case detailed above, the driver must only re-join the track when it is safe to do so and without gaining a lasting advantage.
c) The above requirement will not automatically apply to any driver who is judged to have been forcedoff the track, each such case will be judged individually.


And there is indeed a rule that says where the drivers can race. Whether it is policed or not is irrelevant, though it is obviously not in the FIA's interest to allow the drivers to do as they like.
App L CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS wrote:
c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
d) Causing a collision, repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:46 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:07 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


If lap times were automatically deleted for going off track then drivers wouldn't all be going off track. The solution is pretty simple. It doesn't even need any new rules. Just the application of the existing ones.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:00 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The focus is not Hamilton, it is the rule that needs to be enforced. I am not sure why you have to explain yourself so many times Fiki, I admire your patience!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


If lap times were automatically deleted for going off track then drivers wouldn't all be going off track. The solution is pretty simple. It doesn't even need any new rules. Just the application of the existing ones.


Solution to what? A problem that only a very few have issues with. I've been concentrating on the last turn, but if you look at I think Max he cuts the corner at the end of sector two, and certainly in the last sector where the barriers are considered the limits, just about everyone goes off track; inc. Leclerc. So in what order do you penalise them with your simple solution? I don't accept your assertion that if they enforce limits no one would abuse them. They are all going to push the limits, thats what they do. So lets assume half of them went off track, in what order are you going to apply the penalties?
And we haven't even discussed preparation laps where in a number of cases you cannot have an automatic delete. From what I can see we will have a system with no penalties during practice, possible penalties during prep lap, automatic penalties during qually, and a relaxation during the race.
As I said earlier just about every top line motorsport series has a similar system and most understand it. They are not going to change with all that entails just to satisfy a few; particularly as it would lead to slower qualifying laps, less drivers willing to risk all, more point and squirt, and delays why we work out who abused the system or who didn't. If a driver goes off on a corner where he will lose lap time, I don't see any need to introduce further penalties. The loss of lap time is the penalty.
Edit: in ref to Fiki post. All weekend we saw the best drivers drivers brushing the wall at turn 19, with a few crashing into it. And you would be happier to see them penalised way before the wall becomes a problem for them to deal with, because they crossed a white line. Basically sanitise the last sector at AD because you are fixated about them crossing a white line? I see a number of issues with your simple solution. One being convincing the majority of motorsport fans that this is what they want.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:47 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Edit: in ref to Fiki post. All weekend we saw the best drivers drivers brushing the wall at turn 19, with a few crashing into it. And you would be happier to see them penalised way before the wall becomes a problem for them to deal with, because they crossed a white line. Basically sanitise the last sector at AD because you are fixated about them crossing a white line? I see a number of issues with your simple solution. One being convincing the majority of motorsport fans that this is what they want.
I would say that if only the best drivers go off, it might be interesting to know why they can't keep it on the black stuff, as the old expression went. In other words, if they are truly the best, they can and should race by the rules. Pushing the limits is not the same as breaking them.

Your last line is where the problem truly lies I think. The fans should not have to be convinced of what they want. If they lose interest simply because the drivers race by the rules, then they're not truly fans of F1.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:32 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


If lap times were automatically deleted for going off track then drivers wouldn't all be going off track. The solution is pretty simple. It doesn't even need any new rules. Just the application of the existing ones.


Solution to what? A problem that only a very few have issues with. I've been concentrating on the last turn, but if you look at I think Max he cuts the corner at the end of sector two, and certainly in the last sector where the barriers are considered the limits, just about everyone goes off track; inc. Leclerc. So in what order do you penalise them with your simple solution? I don't accept your assertion that if they enforce limits no one would abuse them. They are all going to push the limits, thats what they do. So lets assume half of them went off track, in what order are you going to apply the penalties?
And we haven't even discussed preparation laps where in a number of cases you cannot have an automatic delete. From what I can see we will have a system with no penalties during practice, possible penalties during prep lap, automatic penalties during qually, and a relaxation during the race.
As I said earlier just about every top line motorsport series has a similar system and most understand it. They are not going to change with all that entails just to satisfy a few; particularly as it would lead to slower qualifying laps, less drivers willing to risk all, more point and squirt, and delays why we work out who abused the system or who didn't. If a driver goes off on a corner where he will lose lap time, I don't see any need to introduce further penalties. The loss of lap time is the penalty.
Edit: in ref to Fiki post. All weekend we saw the best drivers drivers brushing the wall at turn 19, with a few crashing into it. And you would be happier to see them penalised way before the wall becomes a problem for them to deal with, because they crossed a white line. Basically sanitise the last sector at AD because you are fixated about them crossing a white line? I see a number of issues with your simple solution. One being convincing the majority of motorsport fans that this is what they want.

Couldn’t agree with this more – this perfectly sets out what the true consequences of managing this rule to the letter. I do see both sides of the argument, but I think if you support deleting all laps that stray beyond the white lines there will be many unintended consequences of that rule.

While it will of course happen less if enforced, the best drivers will still set the best times, more consistently, and as pointed out all drivers will take less risk and ultimately lose lap time, while being less entertaining to watch. And presumably this would need to be enforced right through the feeder series which is going to be fun to police.

I also don’t think casual fans would be particularly impressed. Even happening less frequently, we would all have to remain calm at the end of qualifying until the good laps are confirmed. Of the areas of sport that would benefit improvement, do we really think that this is one to focus on?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:15 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


If lap times were automatically deleted for going off track then drivers wouldn't all be going off track. The solution is pretty simple. It doesn't even need any new rules. Just the application of the existing ones.


Solution to what? A problem that only a very few have issues with. I've been concentrating on the last turn, but if you look at I think Max he cuts the corner at the end of sector two, and certainly in the last sector where the barriers are considered the limits, just about everyone goes off track; inc. Leclerc. So in what order do you penalise them with your simple solution? I don't accept your assertion that if they enforce limits no one would abuse them. They are all going to push the limits, thats what they do. So lets assume half of them went off track, in what order are you going to apply the penalties?
And we haven't even discussed preparation laps where in a number of cases you cannot have an automatic delete. From what I can see we will have a system with no penalties during practice, possible penalties during prep lap, automatic penalties during qually, and a relaxation during the race.
As I said earlier just about every top line motorsport series has a similar system and most understand it. They are not going to change with all that entails just to satisfy a few; particularly as it would lead to slower qualifying laps, less drivers willing to risk all, more point and squirt, and delays why we work out who abused the system or who didn't. If a driver goes off on a corner where he will lose lap time, I don't see any need to introduce further penalties. The loss of lap time is the penalty.
Edit: in ref to Fiki post. All weekend we saw the best drivers drivers brushing the wall at turn 19, with a few crashing into it. And you would be happier to see them penalised way before the wall becomes a problem for them to deal with, because they crossed a white line. Basically sanitise the last sector at AD because you are fixated about them crossing a white line? I see a number of issues with your simple solution. One being convincing the majority of motorsport fans that this is what they want.

Couldn’t agree with this more – this perfectly sets out what the true consequences of managing this rule to the letter. I do see both sides of the argument, but I think if you support deleting all laps that stray beyond the white lines there will be many unintended consequences of that rule.

While it will of course happen less if enforced, the best drivers will still set the best times, more consistently, and as pointed out all drivers will take less risk and ultimately lose lap time, while being less entertaining to watch. And presumably this would need to be enforced right through the feeder series which is going to be fun to police.

I also don’t think casual fans would be particularly impressed. Even happening less frequently, we would all have to remain calm at the end of qualifying until the good laps are confirmed. Of the areas of sport that would benefit improvement, do we really think that this is one to focus on?


I actually think very few things would benefit the sport more.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:19 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


If lap times were automatically deleted for going off track then drivers wouldn't all be going off track. The solution is pretty simple. It doesn't even need any new rules. Just the application of the existing ones.


Solution to what? A problem that only a very few have issues with. I've been concentrating on the last turn, but if you look at I think Max he cuts the corner at the end of sector two, and certainly in the last sector where the barriers are considered the limits, just about everyone goes off track; inc. Leclerc. So in what order do you penalise them with your simple solution? I don't accept your assertion that if they enforce limits no one would abuse them. They are all going to push the limits, thats what they do. So lets assume half of them went off track, in what order are you going to apply the penalties?
And we haven't even discussed preparation laps where in a number of cases you cannot have an automatic delete. From what I can see we will have a system with no penalties during practice, possible penalties during prep lap, automatic penalties during qually, and a relaxation during the race.
As I said earlier just about every top line motorsport series has a similar system and most understand it. They are not going to change with all that entails just to satisfy a few; particularly as it would lead to slower qualifying laps, less drivers willing to risk all, more point and squirt, and delays why we work out who abused the system or who didn't. If a driver goes off on a corner where he will lose lap time, I don't see any need to introduce further penalties. The loss of lap time is the penalty.
Edit: in ref to Fiki post. All weekend we saw the best drivers drivers brushing the wall at turn 19, with a few crashing into it. And you would be happier to see them penalised way before the wall becomes a problem for them to deal with, because they crossed a white line. Basically sanitise the last sector at AD because you are fixated about them crossing a white line? I see a number of issues with your simple solution. One being convincing the majority of motorsport fans that this is what they want.


We already know what happens when track limits are enforced. Look at Monaco, Baku and Singapore. We don't have scores of drivers crashing in qualifying. They almost all manage to stay in the boundary of the track.

I'm fixated on them actually using the track provided yes. In the same way I'm fixated on the cars not running under weight. Breaking either of those rules would allow you to take the track at a quicker speed.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.

I didn't see much of a back down after it was explained that other drivers were doing the same and the track limits were not being policed.

You can't be asking for lap times to be deleted when drivers are not breaking any rules.

Let me help you with that, this is what Fiki wrote:

Fiki wrote:
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?



Crystal clear that he is not aiming at Hamilton, which ever way anyone may want to read this...

He knew that other drivers went off the track but initially only wanted to highlight Hamilton's pole lap and said it should have been deleted.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:31 pm 
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But again the barriers are self-regulating in that the collision is penalty enough. You do however have drivers glance barriers and not get penalized – sometimes it will cost them the lap, others they will get away with it.

Would it take not take a lot of resource and time to check every timed lap? And for minimal gain when time is often lost anyway. GPS certainly would not be accurate enough to do it given the fine margins we have seen disputed in the past so someone would have to check every single lap. Wouldn’t they have to issue a revised grid a couple of hours after qualifying, even if there are only a couple of transgressions? What if someone shows them evidence of a driver on pole going beyond the limits in Q1 that no one picked up because they couldn’t review all the data in time.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:34 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Like the one that says that they should stick within the track limits?

That being the case why do the stewards normally have to tell the drivers were they can abuse track limits, on certain corners they sometimes decide no advantage has been gained so it's alright to do so, I can't help feel there's a certain blinkeredness to the mechanisms that play out.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:35 pm 
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It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Pretty sure there is a rule that says you have to use the actual track. If there isn't then obviously there should be.

Again I have to ask whats being watched here, were drivers being penalised for running off the track on certain corners at COTA?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Recently they even let one of Vettel’s laps stand because it was so close to the line, even at a point they said they would penalize. While I have softened to Vettel of late, I’ve been a critic of his for a long time, but I still think they made the right decision because the punishment didn’t fit the crime. Point is sometimes the decision is too hard to make when there is a known advantage. Why give yourself that headache where it isn’t. I actually don’t have a preference either way, so will leave it there anyway. It just raises more questions for me than answers.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.
According to the official Race Director's Event Notes, there was no corner where it was specifically allowed to go off track. Any excursion at the corners named was to be finished by rejoining as prescribed in the document. Just for the sake of avoiding doubt and time loss; the final corner was number 21.
FIA Race Director Event Notes wrote:
12) Track Limits
12.1 Support Category Pit Exit – Entry to Turn 11
a) The dotted white line across the pit exit of the support category pit lane is the track edge.
12.2 Turns 11, 12 and 13
a) For safety reasons, any driver who either passes to the right of or runs over the fluorescent orange kerb sections on the driver’s right between Turns 11 and 12, must re-join the track by driving around the end of the fluorescent orange kerb and bollard on the driver’s left between Turns 12 and 13.
b) In the case detailed above, the driver must only re-join the track when it is safe to do so and without gaining a lasting advantage.
c) The above requirement will not automatically apply to any driver who is judged to have been forcedoff the track, each such case will be judged individually.


And there is indeed a rule that says where the drivers can race. Whether it is policed or not is irrelevant, though it is obviously not in the FIA's interest to allow the drivers to do as they like.
App L CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS wrote:
c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
d) Causing a collision, repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

I believe that was to prevent drivers from taking a short cut and had to rejoin the track a certain way, did that apply to Hamilton's pole lap?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:42 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.

I think people are just being rational. In every sport there are rules and laws that it just isn’t practical to enforce to the letter in every single circumstance. In motorsport this is one example.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?


If lap times were automatically deleted for going off track then drivers wouldn't all be going off track. The solution is pretty simple. It doesn't even need any new rules. Just the application of the existing ones.

Indeed but the stewards were not doing this, I brought this forward during practice but it was like tumbleweed on here, now it's of greatest importance it seems after someone came forward saying that Hamilton's pole lap should not have counted because of track limits.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:59 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:06 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.

I think they should be enforced but in Abu Dhabi they decided not to do it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:21 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.


Its pretty staggering that people want to spend untold amounts of money , time, adjudication and effort to punish somebody who has already been punished with a time deficit by going off. Its staggering that someone who momentarily loses the back end to track limits (and a considerable amount of time) during a Brazilian downpour should be penalised further.
But whats not staggering is that those who wants track limits enforced can't even agree on the implementation of such a regime. 'no good reason'; 'automatic deletion','maybe relax the rule during the race', 'not unless you gain time'.
Noting that almost none of these tracks have the wherewithal to even police it properly; or the manpower and systems in place even if the vast sums of money to install such a system were made available.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:39 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MTeFcgFEzo

I think you have to love Kvyat's reaction in an interview when asked about the unsafe release! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:41 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.

Its pretty staggering that people want to spend untold amounts of money , time, adjudication and effort to punish somebody who has already been punished with a time deficit by going off. Its staggering that someone who momentarily loses the back end to track limits (and a considerable amount of time) during a Brazilian downpour should be penalised further.
But whats not staggering is that those who wants track limits enforced can't even agree on the implementation of such a regime. 'no good reason'; 'automatic deletion','maybe relax the rule during the race', 'not unless you gain time'.
Noting that almost none of these tracks have the wherewithal to even police it properly; or the manpower and systems in place even if the vast sums of money to install such a system were made available.

They're not doing it because they're bad drivers. If more than one F1 driver does it on their flying lap, I can pretty much guarantee you they're gaining time doing it.

Simply enforcing track limits universally is the only sane solution. You can't leave it to the stewards to decide if someone 'gained an advantage'. However, I am pretty darned confident that if there was a blanket penalty for running off track you would hardly ever see anyone do it anymore.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:33 am 
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Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:50 am 
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jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.



So remind us again how you enforce 5 plus miles of meandering white lines in all weathers? And if we take Q3 alone thats 20 corners x 10 drivers x 2 runs; so 400 events to investigate before we declare a top ten grid. What evidence are you going to use to prove an infringement. Multiple cameras? Lets hope its not raining. How many people are you going to use to view footage and whose going to decide whether that Ferrari at Monza really needs to be touching the white to be 'on track'. And whose going to pay for this full proof system when you decide which system you need?


Last edited by shoot999 on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:51 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MTeFcgFEzo

I think you have to love Kvyat's reaction in an interview when asked about the unsafe release! :D

I heard about that, thanks for sharing. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:09 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

So remind us again how you enforce 5 plus miles of meandering white lines in all weathers? And if we take Q3 alone thats 20 corners x 10 drivers x 2 runs; so 400 events to investigate before we declare a top ten grid. What evidence are you going to use to prove an infringement. Multiple cameras? Lets hope its not raining. How many people are you going to use to view footage and whose going to decide whether that Ferrari at Monza really needs to be touching the white to be 'on track'. And whose going to pay for this full proof system when you decide which system you need?

Buried wire, transponders on the car. If they go over the line, the system picks it up and automatically tags them. It doesn't need to be on all 5 miles -- just corners, and maybe even just exits.

Having a computer do it eliminates any need for stewards to consider the 'merits' of the case. Just like having walls, it becomes a question of getting as near as possible without going over -- risk/reward, not just taking advantage of lax rules.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:27 am 
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jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

Unsurprisingly, different sports have different priorities.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:37 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

Unsurprisingly, different sports have different priorities.

Why, though? Racing is about completing the course in the fastest time possible. If you leave the course to gain an advantage, haven't you fundamentally violated the rules of play?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:13 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

Unsurprisingly, different sports have different priorities.

The line is there to mark where the playing surface ends. Going outside the line is not necessarily an advantage, but doing so is against the rules. Simple.

Please explain to me how this can't be applied to motorsports.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:31 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
If you want to make your point without being accused of doing so out of bias, make it as soon as you see drivers going wide considering that majority of drivers were doing it throughout all of quali. Don't wait till the end of the session in silence and then go "Hamilton went out the circuit on his pole lap it should be deleted".

Posting like that you're obviously gonna get called on a bias, so dont be surprised when it happens, because intentional or not you look biased as anything

I don't think you can accuse Fiki of bias against Hamilton frankly; only against rule breaking

Not accusing him of bias, just saying his initial post sparked this because it was badly put across. I agree with his opinion 100% but there's no way you could have watched quali and not seen other drivers doing it until seeing the pole lap


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.

I didn't see much of a back down after it was explained that other drivers were doing the same and the track limits were not being policed.

You can't be asking for lap times to be deleted when drivers are not breaking any rules.

Let me help you with that, this is what Fiki wrote:

Fiki wrote:
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?



Crystal clear that he is not aiming at Hamilton, which ever way anyone may want to read this...

He knew that other drivers went off the track but initially only wanted to highlight Hamilton's pole lap and said it should have been deleted.


Yes he knew and he also mentioned it. It's just that he happened to be watching the pole lap and noticed it, please come off the Hamilton bias angle


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