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 Post subject: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:54 pm
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Crash.net has a articsl on there from ross brawn saying that they ate looking at recreating the safety car restarts that occurred in Brazil.

Well I can think of 1 way of recreating it. But I think it will be controversial.
Nascar's restart zone. That will give you the best way of recreating the restarts that we witnessed in Brazil.

Do we need these restarts on formula 1?


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:11 pm 
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The fact that they are trying to use the safety car to spice up the racing makes me think even more that currently the "safety" car is being used disingenuously.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The fact that they are trying to use the safety car to spice up the racing makes me think even more that currently the "safety" car is being used disingenuously.


Exactly, the safety car restarts in Brazil created overtaking and action that shouldn't and wouldn't have happened if Bottas' car doesn't blow up. Gasly and Sainz drove well, but their podium places were down to massive fortune that I don't want to see repeated regularly.

They need to fix the core racing itself that occurs naturally and non-contrived, like supposedly these 2021 regulations will help sort, (a closer field spread and cars being able to run physically closer to each other is mainly all that is needed to fix the racing), but then when Ross Brawn comes out with comments like this, it says to me that he still doesn't really get it.

The safety car is being used as a tool to spice up the action and it disgusts me. I really do feel like they look for any excuse they can to bring the safety car out now.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:02 pm 
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It's easy. When the pace car comes in to the pit, the following cars all have to travel at the same speed, bit like the pit lane limiter but faster. Then, when they cross a line on the track, off they go.

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:05 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
Do we need these restarts on formula 1?

No. It was the beginning of the end for NASCAR when they started artificially creating green-white-checkered finishes, and F1 should stay well away from the concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:23 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The fact that they are trying to use the safety car to spice up the racing makes me think even more that currently the "safety" car is being used disingenuously.

:nod:

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:25 am 
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Rather than trying to decrease the unfair disruption to races that the SC causes, instead they see the introduction of the SC as an asset and they are looking at how they can increase it's 'effectiveness' going forwards. It's pretty disturbing really for fans of true racing.

To me it seems pretty simple, employ the VSC the vast majority of the time over the SC, and have pit stop time levys for any stops made under SC and VSC conditions. That causes the minimum disruption to the racing, it neutralises the race as much as is reasonably practical and also allows windows of safety for the marshals to do what they need to do. But unfortunately doing this would rule out all the artificial excitement that gets caused by a random safety car period being thrown in to help jumble up the order, so the powers that be will never go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:03 am 
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Here are Ross Brawn's worrying comments:

''He (Verstappen) was particularly strong at the second re-start, when he slowed the field right down with the aim of ensuring no one would be able to slipstream past him and snatch victory.

It was an exciting and fascinating re-start which will be analysed very carefully, as the closeness of the pack in the seconds leading up to the green flags resulted in a thrilling spectacle as drivers jockeyed for position and where the slightest advantage proved decisive.

Examining the possibility of procedurally recreating those conditions in the future is an interesting concept
and one that will undoubtedly be explored in the coming period.''


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:18 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Here are Ross Brawn's worrying comments:

''He (Verstappen) was particularly strong at the second re-start, when he slowed the field right down with the aim of ensuring no one would be able to slipstream past him and snatch victory.

It was an exciting and fascinating re-start which will be analysed very carefully, as the closeness of the pack in the seconds leading up to the green flags resulted in a thrilling spectacle as drivers jockeyed for position and where the slightest advantage proved decisive.

Examining the possibility of procedurally recreating those conditions in the future is an interesting concept
and one that will undoubtedly be explored in the coming period.''

Worrying indeed, but I have a feeling those aren't really Brawn's own words even though they might have come out of his mouth...

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:36 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
It's easy. When the pace car comes in to the pit, the following cars all have to travel at the same speed, bit like the pit lane limiter but faster. Then, when they cross a line on the track, off they go.


What if, a really big what if, they had a limiter button, like the pit limiter. So when the VSC or a SC comes out, all cars are automatically limited to say 100kph, so that they stay at the same distance with each other during the VSC and they don't bunch up behind the SC.

I haven't put much thought into this, but they already do it in the pits, so it is not an alien technology really.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:00 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
It's easy. When the pace car comes in to the pit, the following cars all have to travel at the same speed, bit like the pit lane limiter but faster. Then, when they cross a line on the track, off they go.


What if, a really big what if, they had a limiter button, like the pit limiter. So when the VSC or a SC comes out, all cars are automatically limited to say 100kph, so that they stay at the same distance with each other during the VSC and they don't bunch up behind the SC.

I haven't put much thought into this, but they already do it in the pits, so it is not an alien technology really.


Well yes, there is no reason why the VSC period can't have them lapping substantially slower, (to make it ludicrously safe while still neutralising the race), particularly if they factor into the design of the cars so they don't overheat at these slower speeds.

Safety has such an easy solution but it doesn't cause as much excitement doing that way. They prefer the current SC method as it is a bit like the sprinkler system, only much cheaper.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7855
Location: Belgium
wire2004 wrote:
Crash.net has a articsl on there from ross brawn saying that they ate looking at recreating the safety car restarts that occurred in Brazil.

Well I can think of 1 way of recreating it. But I think it will be controversial.
Nascar's restart zone. That will give you the best way of recreating the restarts that we witnessed in Brazil.
1. I know nothing about NASCAR, and doubt I would watch it if I could.
2. I still don't trust Ross Brawn, despite being mightily impressed by what he did for 2009.

wire2004 wrote:
Do we need these restarts on formula 1?
No we don't. We don't even need the SC; it simply doesn't serve the purpose it is named for.

There is no doubt that Carlos Sainz and Pierre Gasly and their respective teams were overjoyed on Sunday. But the direct reason for their points success is the Safety Car called for Bottas's DNF, because it is now in Race Control's checklist after Bianchi's accident to send it out if a crane is needed - whatever the actual situation at the incident site.

Sunday's Safety Car period led semi-directly to the clash between the Ferraris, and the accident that destroyed Albon's race. I fail to understand who could possibly wish to repeat such nonsense. It's bringing the sport into disrepute.

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:37 am 
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Basically it was bad enough in the 90's and 00's that you used to lose your 30 second lead over the guy behind you, but at least you could keep the seven lapped cars in place between you and the guy behind so you still had a reasonable buffer to the guy in second once the race got underway again. Not only that but the safety car was rarely called out and only for necessary situations, so it didn't affect the outcome of races too much.

Then in the 10's you now have those seven lapped cars cleared out of the way too, so your lead is even smaller with the second placed guy right on your a$$ for the restart, with potentially better tyres too, (think how Danny Ric's victory in China 2018 was so lucky thanks to a late race safety car effectively gifting him or Max the win when just prior to the safety car they were completely out of contention). You also have to start dealing with safety cars more and more regularly so it becomes a much bigger issue than before.

Then in the 20's you not only lose your entire lead and the backmarkers evaporate out of the way, but the rule makers are actively searching for ways to allow the guy in second place to get a run on you at the restart, meaning there is a greater chance than ever that you lose the lead.

That is the evolution of safety procedures everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Posts: 33330
F1 Racer wrote:
Here are Ross Brawn's worrying comments:

''He (Verstappen) was particularly strong at the second re-start, when he slowed the field right down with the aim of ensuring no one would be able to slipstream past him and snatch victory.

It was an exciting and fascinating re-start which will be analysed very carefully, as the closeness of the pack in the seconds leading up to the green flags resulted in a thrilling spectacle as drivers jockeyed for position and where the slightest advantage proved decisive.

Examining the possibility of procedurally recreating those conditions in the future is an interesting concept
and one that will undoubtedly be explored in the coming period.''

So we are going to have a NASCAR type dash for the cash, what's the point in watching a race for over an hour when you know it's going to be reduced to this?

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Here are Ross Brawn's worrying comments:

''He (Verstappen) was particularly strong at the second re-start, when he slowed the field right down with the aim of ensuring no one would be able to slipstream past him and snatch victory.

It was an exciting and fascinating re-start which will be analysed very carefully, as the closeness of the pack in the seconds leading up to the green flags resulted in a thrilling spectacle as drivers jockeyed for position and where the slightest advantage proved decisive.

Examining the possibility of procedurally recreating those conditions in the future is an interesting concept
and one that will undoubtedly be explored in the coming period.''

Worrying indeed, but I have a feeling those aren't really Brawn's own words even though they might have come out of his mouth...

Liberty Media perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Posts: 177
There was no reason for the safety car at that point in the race. A virtual safety car would been more than enough if not just yellow flags. I feel this was done to bunch up the field to artificially create excitement and it worked. Now I worry they will be looking to spice things up using the safety car whenever possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Location: Salisbury, Wiltshire UK
This is even worse than Bernie's sprinkler idea (and I thought that was stupid......).

At least the sprinklers would give all drivers the opportunity to use a certain amount of their talent to control their car through the slippery part of the track.

All this safety car idea does is penalise the drivers who have spent the whole race creating a gap between themselves and the car(s) behind.....

Ridiculous.

WWF1


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:45 pm
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If the safety car is truly warranted, by all means have the rules so the restart is exciting. I have no problem with that.
But competition cautions and forced Green-White-Checkers have no business anywhere.

Anybody know if the FIA or Race Director have some sort of Set of Rules governing when the safety car is deployed?

SteveW, the sprinklers are starting to look like a respectable option compared to some of these things.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Safety car restarts.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:50 pm 
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donr wrote:

Anybody know if the FIA or Race Director have some sort of Set of Rules governing when the safety car is deployed?



Not to my knowledge they don't. The last thing they would want is to be forced into doing or not doing certain actions. They much prefer to do what they want in the moment, and then try and justify it with some weird rationale later, which often contradicts with them doing the opposite action in the past. It's a bit like when the stewards hand out penalties sometimes but it is never clear which rules have been broken, and also when they don't hand out penalties they don't make it clear why not either. If they did, it would force consistency. Examples would be a lack of a 5 second penalty for Leclerc's unsafe release in Germany, or the sometimes penalising/sometimes not penalising forcing other drivers off the track.

In contrast with football say, with the new Video Assistant Referee rules and how it comes to implementing it for offside; it is consistent because the rule is well created, understood and applied. Some fans might not be happy if a goal is ruled out for someone having a toe offside, but the interpretation is consistent and will always be flagged as offside in any match where this occurs. There is very little of that when it comes to Formula One, (it is possible but the rule makers don't seem to want to define things properly and create very clear and detailed rules so that most things are clear).


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