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What caused Ferrari's lack of pace in Austin?
Engine changed to comply with technical directive 59%  59%  [ 17 ]
Circuit does not suit their car 21%  21%  [ 6 ]
Had to avoid kerbs and bumps 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Trialing high downforce setting 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Sandbagging 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc ate too much of Binotto's birthday cake 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Other 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 29
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:05 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:55 am 
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Yep, you got it, iano
:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:25 am 
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iano wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!

Incorrect. The thread and the poll have nothing to do with Max's comments. This is something that was reported at the start of the weekend and Max's comments were made as a reaction to the topic of this thread, they are not the cause of it. Max's comments were given as the most extreme interpretation of the events of the story and I then added alternative explanations in an effort to balance his more widely reported views.

I clarified in my second post (and the third post in this thread) that this is to gauge what people's gut instinct was, as well as open a wider discussion on the matter. So far it's been - bar a couple of off topic jokey comments that have nothing to do with the thread or Ferrari - conducted in a serious, fair and reasonable manner.

I am failing to see what your objection is. That none of us are members of an F1 team and therefore are uninformed can be applied to literally every single F1 technical or sporting debate. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law. Our opinions will not influence any outcomes in the sport, nor will our discussion be the detective work that gets to the bottom of the issue. The thread is to see where people stand now on the issue, and follow the story as it develops. That's what a discussion forum is for.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:01 am 
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iano wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!

Furthermore, it's not an uninformed opinion, or a guess. While I think (and hope) that he's wrong, and is ultimately going to be spinning it as the interpretation that best benefits his own team, it is based on and research done by Red Bull into how to fool the fuel flow sensors. Your post seems to suggest that you are completely unaware of the wider topic - although I assume you have not been living in a cave on a remote island with no internet. Autosport published a video yesterday that covers pretty much everything my original post contained here:


Everyone in F1 knows that Ferrari have had a significant power step on their engine, that's not been in doubt. All the teams will know the profile of that power delivery too, from the GPS traces, the sound from the onboard etc etc.

The question the other teams are asking is how have Ferrari achieved that power step? Given the difference they have seen - it's pretty mighty - it has puzzled the other teams because it's not incremental like is usually seen. It suggests Ferrari have found something fundamentally new and different in philosophy, or they a breaking the rules (or both)

The easiest way for any engine to generate more power is to burn more fuel. Also, given that the power from the MGU-K is defined in the regulations, the only way to generate more power from the engine is from the Internal Combustion component. The torque curves of these two components are very different, and all these things combined means that teams can conclude with a reasonable degree of certainty that that is where Ferrari are getting their extra power from. It's not a guess.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question of HOW they are getting more power from their ICE, and it is entirely possible that it's legal, not illegal nor in a grey area. But Red Bull (and all the other teams) have far more data to go on than we do - and they can see the changes to the power delivery that their loophole would have made, so unless this was a possible match with that they were seeing with Ferrari's engine they wouldn't have raised it, because it was pointless. They knew the FIA would say it was illegal - the regulations explicitly say that you can't cheat the sensors and that's what they were asking "can we use this specific technique to cheat the sensors"

Again, this does not prove anything, it's only circumstantial whether or not it's what Ferrari was actually doing. But what it does mean is that going forward the FIA will be looking closely to see if such a system is in place, meaning that if Ferrari had been using such a system they would take it off or deactivate it. Given that this weekend Ferrari's power curve was significantly lower, it's raised eyebrows - but one race is not enough, particularly as Leclerc had an old engine and Vettel's suspension collapsed.

No one can know yet. But as my previous post stated, that's not what this thread is for. It's to see what people think now, and to then follow this story as it develops.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:07 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Is the Pope catholic?


No he isn't.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:25 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
iano wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ferrari appeared to be much slower in a straight line in this last race.

This has obviously raised a lot of suspicions with people, giving the timing of the technical clarification that Red Bull requested.

Max Verstappen has outright accused them of cheating, but obviously whether they were or were not it's not something that can ever be proven, other then by circumstantial evidence, such as the connection being made regarding their pace.

However, it's not the only explanation for why they were slow. Austin could have just not suited their car - although with the long straight and Suzuka esses, the circuit style is one you'd expect them to be closer than Leclerc was prior to his fastest lap pit stop.

Of course, it was very bumpy and after Vettel's failure Ferrari instructed Charles to avoid the major kerbs and bumps so that could have compromised his pace, the Ferrari certainly looks more fragile than the Red Bull and the Merc.

One final hypothesis I saw was that Ferrari were experimenting with a higher drag set up - which would make sense given they are out of contention for the championship, they may as well get data on a Merc style set up. They wouldn't be competitive with it as it goes against the philosophy of their car, but they can learn data for tyre wear for next year.

But whether you see it as cheating or a legitimate loophole that's been closed, the engine factor is always going to a suspected by many, but the question is, what do you think caused Ferrari's pace drop off?


If I get the general idea of the poll..
Max accussed Ferrari of cheating, but obviously Max would not really know.

So the idea is to turn from an uninformed guess such as what Max would be doing, to the people who would actually know for sure......us!!

Furthermore, it's not an uninformed opinion, or a guess. While I think (and hope) that he's wrong, and is ultimately going to be spinning it as the interpretation that best benefits his own team, it is based on and research done by Red Bull into how to fool the fuel flow sensors. Your post seems to suggest that you are completely unaware of the wider topic - although I assume you have not been living in a cave on a remote island with no internet. Autosport published a video yesterday that covers pretty much everything my original post contained here:


Everyone in F1 knows that Ferrari have had a significant power step on their engine, that's not been in doubt. All the teams will know the profile of that power delivery too, from the GPS traces, the sound from the onboard etc etc.

The question the other teams are asking is how have Ferrari achieved that power step? Given the difference they have seen - it's pretty mighty - it has puzzled the other teams because it's not incremental like is usually seen. It suggests Ferrari have found something fundamentally new and different in philosophy, or they a breaking the rules (or both)

The easiest way for any engine to generate more power is to burn more fuel. Also, given that the power from the MGU-K is defined in the regulations, the only way to generate more power from the engine is from the Internal Combustion component. The torque curves of these two components are very different, and all these things combined means that teams can conclude with a reasonable degree of certainty that that is where Ferrari are getting their extra power from. It's not a guess.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question of HOW they are getting more power from their ICE, and it is entirely possible that it's legal, not illegal nor in a grey area. But Red Bull (and all the other teams) have far more data to go on than we do - and they can see the changes to the power delivery that their loophole would have made, so unless this was a possible match with that they were seeing with Ferrari's engine they wouldn't have raised it, because it was pointless. They knew the FIA would say it was illegal - the regulations explicitly say that you can't cheat the sensors and that's what they were asking "can we use this specific technique to cheat the sensors"

Again, this does not prove anything, it's only circumstantial whether or not it's what Ferrari was actually doing. But what it does mean is that going forward the FIA will be looking closely to see if such a system is in place, meaning that if Ferrari had been using such a system they would take it off or deactivate it. Given that this weekend Ferrari's power curve was significantly lower, it's raised eyebrows - but one race is not enough, particularly as Leclerc had an old engine and Vettel's suspension collapsed.

No one can know yet. But as my previous post stated, that's not what this thread is for. It's to see what people think now, and to then follow this story as it develops.


The comment on the opinion of max being an uninformed guess relative to us on the forum was intended to be sarcasm.... but although you can mark text bold or italic...i have not found how to mark it as sarcastic.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:29 am 
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.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

-----------

[ edit ]

One thing I didn't understand in the Autosport video was that they thought that Ferrari would be upset if the other teams did call them out over any (putative) cheating ! IF (a big "if") it is found that Ferrari did "cheat" then why should Ferrari feel entitled to be upset about it? Do they feel that they have a right to cheat ?

.


Last edited by Greenman on Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:43 am 
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Greenman wrote:
.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

.


I was only half listening to a broadcast last night, but from what I gather the way RB went about this was deliberate, in that the route they followed means their will be no investigation, punishments or accusations. And its in everyone's interests, inc Ferrari and RB, for their not to be.

In answer to your edit. All teams push the boundaries; sometimes going over them. So its in everyone's interests to seek clarification on a rule rather than accuse the other guy of cheating. Apart from having to prove it rather than seek a clarification which will stop any apparent 'abuse', there is every chance that the next time this comes up you will be on the receiving end. And who needs a season full of accusations and counter accusations? Although on occasion teams will resort to a formal accusation.


Last edited by shoot999 on Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think this makes back to back seasons where, as soon as the FIA took steps to "clarify" their approach, they lost performance noticeably. If you recall, the same thing happened when the FIA temporarily installed a second sensor to monitor their battery output last year. So at the very least, it seems that Ferrari are fairly consistently trying to circumvent the regulations. From there, whether or not you choose to call them cheaters is more about semantics.

If that's what they're doing then the powers that will be will look for the issue to quietly go away for the good of the sport, on Ferrari's part they are upset either because they are not guilty or because of how public it's becoming with accusations of cheating, on their part if guilty they perhaps thought the worse that would happen is they agree to stop doing what they're doing and it's all dealt with behind closed doors?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:04 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

.


I was only half listening to a broadcast last night, but from what I gather the way RB went about this was deliberate, in that the route they followed means their will be no investigation, punishments or accusations. And its in everyone's interests, inc Ferrari and RB, for their not to be.

By coincidence I've just posted similar, Ferrari have a special place in F1 and it's better for F1 if they are competitive but I guess there is a limit?

However unfortunately I guess you can't control everything and everybody like Max Verstappen. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Technically, I can easily think of a method to circumvent the fuel flow regulations. The fuel flow sensors are at least before the fuel rail that leads to each cylinder. If not, you need six individual sensors versus one. At each cylinder the fuel rail leads to a solenoid that opens and closes to regulate the fuel into the combustion chamber. All one has to do is install a hydraulic accumulator into the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the fuel flow sensor. When off-throttle, the fuel is pumped into the accumulator, at the legal flow rate. When on the gas and accelerating the excess fuel now stored in the accumulator is delivered into each cylinder (along with the fuel allowed under the prescribed flow rate), allowing more fuel burn.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:46 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Technically, I can easily think of a method to circumvent the fuel flow regulations. The fuel flow sensors are at least before the fuel rail that leads to each cylinder. If not, you need six individual sensors versus one. At each cylinder the fuel rail leads to a solenoid that opens and closes to regulate the fuel into the combustion chamber. All one has to do is install a hydraulic accumulator into the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the fuel flow sensor. When off-throttle, the fuel is pumped into the accumulator, at the legal flow rate. When on the gas and accelerating the excess fuel now stored in the accumulator is delivered into each cylinder (along with the fuel allowed under the prescribed flow rate), allowing more fuel burn.

The regulations specifically outlaw any device that collects the fuel after the measuring point, whether by design or inconsequentially.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Technically, I can easily think of a method to circumvent the fuel flow regulations. The fuel flow sensors are at least before the fuel rail that leads to each cylinder. If not, you need six individual sensors versus one. At each cylinder the fuel rail leads to a solenoid that opens and closes to regulate the fuel into the combustion chamber. All one has to do is install a hydraulic accumulator into the fuel rail somewhere downstream of the fuel flow sensor. When off-throttle, the fuel is pumped into the accumulator, at the legal flow rate. When on the gas and accelerating the excess fuel now stored in the accumulator is delivered into each cylinder (along with the fuel allowed under the prescribed flow rate), allowing more fuel burn.

The regulations specifically outlaw any device that collects the fuel after the measuring point, whether by design or inconsequentially.


I stand corrected, FIA Formula One technical regulations ..

5.10.5  Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow  rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:14 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mmi16 wrote:
Is the Pope catholic?


No he isn't.

He isn't Jewish or Muslim......


Nor a Catholic I believe. Just sayin'!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Greenman wrote:
.

I ASSUME (?) that the FIA can go through all the race (and practice date) to see how the Ferrari engine performance has changed over the season, and for the future races to see what the recorded fuel flow/power relationship has been (and will be).

Again, ASSUMING they find something suspicious, are they going to allow Ferrari to keep all their points in both the Constructors and Drivers championships ? Red Bull, at least, would seem to have a fair case for claiming second place in the Constructors ?

-----------

[ edit ]

One thing I didn't understand in the Autosport video was that they thought that Ferrari would be upset if the other teams did call them out over any (putative) cheating ! IF (a big "if") it is found that Ferrari did "cheat" then why should Ferrari feel entitled to be upset about it? Do they feel that they have a right to cheat ?

.


Well, if you are used to be allowed to cheat, then you may feel entitled to do so (generally speaking).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:54 pm 
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The way I understood it was:

Cars are not allowed to exceed a set fuel flow rate.

To check this the fuel flow rate is measured before it enters the plenum. (Where fuel and air mix? before entering engine)

At certain times when under maximum flow rate, a little extra is added through the meter (Which still registers below maximum flow rate)

This fuel somehow stays in the plenum chamber to be used when required. (an undetected reserve)

Add this undetected reserve to the detectable fuel rate and you have more fuel than anybody else and subsequently more power.

Have I explained it correctly?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:00 pm 
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It seems to me that the pace of the Ferrari cars this weekend in Brazil will tell us a lot about whether Team Red has had to give up some extra-legal tricks in response to the Technical Directive. If Vettel & Leclerc are right back there giving Merc and Red Bull fits about their top speed then a lot of folks will shrug off the accusations of cheating. If Ferrari continues it's substandard performance as they did in Austin then a lot of tongues will be set wagging.

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