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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:41 am 
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Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:32 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


I keep wondering who came up with the idea that the announcer at races should be a jovial dunce. Crofty and Leigh Diffey are the two who immediately come to mind but there have been others.

I like most all of the folks on the Sky Sports broadcast team but Crofty, I don't have much use for.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:56 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Verstappen said he had a hole in his floor after some damage on lap one - did anyone see anything that happened at the start?

Wasn't there someone around here who recently suggested that the weight reduction from such damage would more than make up for the reduced aerodynamic loss? Asking for a friend!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:00 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Greenman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I think you missed a question mark there.

Just coincidence then?

No qualifying advantage, no talk of time lost on straights, it's understandable if someone might wonder even if it's a case of 2+2=5.
.

Look on the viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15448 thread

.

Wow Hamilton actually said that Ferrari have lost power since the FIA technical directive. 8O


I think it's very clear.

Apparently Verstappen was asked why Ferrari performed so poorly and he said because they are no longer cheating. 8O

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:04 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Was not the issue last time concerning Leclerc?


I consider those separate issues. Leclerc ran Hamilton off on the way into the corner. It's generally been viewed differently.

Drivers do what Vertsappen did in Austria and what Hamilton did today every race. Usually without much comment.


I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.

I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:07 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I consider those separate issues. Leclerc ran Hamilton off on the way into the corner. It's generally been viewed differently.

Drivers do what Vertsappen did in Austria and what Hamilton did today every race. Usually without much comment.


I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.

I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?


Exactly this.

Verstappen failed to drive his car off the track in Japan so he ended up getting hit.

In USA Bottas succeeded in driving his car off the track so he didn't end up getting hit but he was still transgressed in the same way.

Verstappen's car was in front unlike the situation with Bottas, I daresay Verstappen even realised he was going to get hit to avoid the contact in the first place.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:10 am 
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Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.perez-takes-important-point-after-furious-kvyat-penalised-for-collision.2gqStxDGBnEvTk9FFdu0bX.html

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I consider those separate issues. Leclerc ran Hamilton off on the way into the corner. It's generally been viewed differently.

Drivers do what Vertsappen did in Austria and what Hamilton did today every race. Usually without much comment.


I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.

I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?

I don't recall what happened or was said in Monza. I just don't agree with the "leave the track or we crash" mentality, which I think you too have been quite vocal about. Or don't we think it's a problem when it's Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:05 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Was not the issue last time concerning Leclerc?


I consider those separate issues. Leclerc ran Hamilton off on the way into the corner. It's generally been viewed differently.

Drivers do what Vertsappen did in Austria and what Hamilton did today every race. Usually without much comment.


I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.


You recall incorrectly.

I can't remember a recent case of a driver being penalised for it.


No I recall correctly. He got penalised for it.


No. he didn't get penalised for forcing a driver off at corner exit. He got penalised for hitting Verstappen. He wasn't near the edge of the track at the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I consider those separate issues. Leclerc ran Hamilton off on the way into the corner. It's generally been viewed differently.

Drivers do what Vertsappen did in Austria and what Hamilton did today every race. Usually without much comment.


I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.

I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?


And in Monza did you agree with that or not?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:30 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I enjoyed the race, but I do feel they should be far stricter about cars going outside the track all the time.


Also didn't LH force VB off the track and it went unpunished?

Plus Leclerc seemed to move into Albon at the start and Albon moved into Sainz. Not sure who was at fault here out of Albon and Leclerc, I think Albon should have held his ground and not moved more to the right into Sainz. If Albon stayed firm in the middle of the track, maybe Leclerc stops continuing to move right?


People only care about that when Verstappen is the perpetrator.


I've been calling out the tactic of forcing drivers off the track, for many many seasons.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Apparently Verstappen was asked why Ferrari performed so poorly and he said because they are no longer cheating. 8O


8O Shock smilie indeed. Ferrari no longer cheating? That can't be true. What is Max on!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:21 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


The entire Sky coverage is cringeworthy. Had nearly 2 hours of build up which consisted of Jonny Herbert playing golf, George Russell and 2 sky presenters playing baseball in nets and a cheap remote control car race between Norris and Perez.

Crofty is just the poster boy for the complete dumbing down of F1 coverage in an attempt to attract new fans. Theyre the best cars on the planet so the lack of any proper tech analysis is an abomination


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:08 am 
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Zazu wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


The entire Sky coverage is cringeworthy. Had nearly 2 hours of build up which consisted of Jonny Herbert playing golf, George Russell and 2 sky presenters playing baseball in nets and a cheap remote control car race between Norris and Perez.

Crofty is just the poster boy for the complete dumbing down of F1 coverage in an attempt to attract new fans. Theyre the best cars on the planet so the lack of any proper tech analysis is an abomination



:thumbup: I'm lucky enough to have the time and money to spend on F1. But I just won't spend either on this joke of a broadcast. I can accept that croft is just plain dumb where F1 is concerned, but what I can't accept is I believe he doesn't care one jot about the sport or those who participate in it. The others just seem to follow the 'script' and dance for this clown; with only Davidson willing to stand up to him occasionally. The annoying thing is if you catch these bit players co-commentating on F2 and elsewhere they are really good at their jobs. Herbert in particular is a revelation.
I'll catch the C4 broadcast later and although only highlights you just know its going to be a far better F1 broadcast.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:03 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I enjoyed the race, but I do feel they should be far stricter about cars going outside the track all the time.


Also didn't LH force VB off the track and it went unpunished?
Remember the 'explanation' Charlie Whiting gave a few years ago? Hamilton was ahead at the apex, and according to Whiting, that gives the driver ahead the right to run the outside car off the track.
I've already said this many times, but I'm still to come across a rule in the sporting code that actually allows this. And I still haven't.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:19 am 
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Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I enjoyed the race, but I do feel they should be far stricter about cars going outside the track all the time.


Also didn't LH force VB off the track and it went unpunished?
Remember the 'explanation' Charlie Whiting gave a few years ago? Hamilton was ahead at the apex, and according to Whiting, that gives the driver ahead the right to run the outside car off the track.
I've already said this many times, but I'm still to come across a rule in the sporting code that actually allows this. And I still haven't.


I agree that they should not allow drivers to edge others off the circuit on corner exit, but to suddenly start calling for penalities here (not referring to you here) is pretty funny. This style of racing has long been accepted by the stewards, to penalise Lewis for the move on Valterri would be completely out of the blue with no precedent. General consensus here after Monza - I am referring now to Sainz pushing Albon into the freaking gravel - that it was horses for courses and Albon was stupid for trying to stick it out. Hilarious watching peoples opinions change like p*** in the wind really.

I personally think they shouldn't allow it - but you need to make that clear to the drivers before the fact, not suddenly after having it been accepted by the stewards for pretty much all of racing history - I mean I certainly can't remember any circumstance where a driver was penalised for this


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:28 am 
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Zazu wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


The entire Sky coverage is cringeworthy. Had nearly 2 hours of build up which consisted of Jonny Herbert playing golf, George Russell and 2 sky presenters playing baseball in nets and a cheap remote control car race between Norris and Perez.

Crofty is just the poster boy for the complete dumbing down of F1 coverage in an attempt to attract new fans. Theyre the best cars on the planet so the lack of any proper tech analysis is an abomination


I had to chuckle at one of the paddock interviewers after qualifying asking Sergio Perez if he thought he could try a divebomb info turn one to gain positions, despite the fact he was starting from the pitlane.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:46 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Zazu wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


The entire Sky coverage is cringeworthy. Had nearly 2 hours of build up which consisted of Jonny Herbert playing golf, George Russell and 2 sky presenters playing baseball in nets and a cheap remote control car race between Norris and Perez.

Crofty is just the poster boy for the complete dumbing down of F1 coverage in an attempt to attract new fans. Theyre the best cars on the planet so the lack of any proper tech analysis is an abomination


I had to chuckle at one of the paddock interviewers after qualifying asking Sergio Perez if he thought he could try a divebomb info turn one to gain positions, despite the fact he was starting from the pitlane.


I thought I misheard that, so thanks for confirming. :blush: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:52 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.perez-takes-important-point-after-furious-kvyat-penalised-for-collision.2gqStxDGBnEvTk9FFdu0bX.html

It gets to the point as I'm confused to what is allowed after Verstappen pushed Leclerc off the track in Austria.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.

I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?

I don't recall what happened or was said in Monza. I just don't agree with the "leave the track or we crash" mentality, which I think you too have been quite vocal about. Or don't we think it's a problem when it's Hamilton?

No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
I thought someone got done recently for forcing off on the corner exit like this? Leclerc in Japan if I recall correctly.

I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?


And in Monza did you agree with that or not?

No but then again I responded to a post that asked why Hamilton went unpunished, should Hamilton be treated differently by the stewards?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Blake wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I HATE it when the drivers are in the cooldown room and crofty won't stop talking. We miss the discussions. On channel 4 when they were live, Ben Edwards always says lets listen into what they are saying and stops talking unless there is total scilence. Crofty ruins the coverage in so many ways.....


You are being too generous towards Crofty. I end up angry with most every broadcast...to the point of turning of the sound, or even switching to a different program.


Gotta agree... I used to quite like crofty when he would commentate on practice with Anthony Davidson but now he seems to have gotten thicker, constantly saying the wrong thing, stammering during key racing moments, talking about utter shhhhhhiiiiii- all the damn time


The entire Sky coverage is cringeworthy. Had nearly 2 hours of build up which consisted of Jonny Herbert playing golf, George Russell and 2 sky presenters playing baseball in nets and a cheap remote control car race between Norris and Perez.

Crofty is just the poster boy for the complete dumbing down of F1 coverage in an attempt to attract new fans. Theyre the best cars on the planet so the lack of any proper tech analysis is an abomination

Wasn't that Kravitz's area but they seem to have cut back on his air time?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?

I don't recall what happened or was said in Monza. I just don't agree with the "leave the track or we crash" mentality, which I think you too have been quite vocal about. Or don't we think it's a problem when it's Hamilton?

No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:03 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
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So Stroll lost 3 places, Stroll who makes up for poor qualifying with incredible first laps.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think crashing into another car might be a bit different? :)

Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?


And in Monza did you agree with that or not?

No but then again I responded to a post that asked why Hamilton went unpunished, should Hamilton be treated differently by the stewards?


Well I don't think they're similar incidents. That was you. With that in mind why would you complain heartily about Leclerc but give Hamilton a free pass?

I'm not talking about penalties here necceserilly. But with your logic if you complained about the first being unfair you should also agree the second was unfair as well?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:07 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?

I don't recall what happened or was said in Monza. I just don't agree with the "leave the track or we crash" mentality, which I think you too have been quite vocal about. Or don't we think it's a problem when it's Hamilton?

No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Would they have crashed had Bottas not evaded off the track?

Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?


And in Monza did you agree with that or not?

No but then again I responded to a post that asked why Hamilton went unpunished, should Hamilton be treated differently by the stewards?


Well I don't think they're similar incidents. That was you. With that in mind why would you complain heartily about Leclerc but give Hamilton a free pass?

I'm not talking about penalties here necceserilly. But with your logic if you complained about the first being unfair you should also agree the second was unfair as well?

Yet again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, I never got into the semantics of fairness and I certainly didn't condone what Hamilton did.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:21 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I enjoyed the race, but I do feel they should be far stricter about cars going outside the track all the time.


Also didn't LH force VB off the track and it went unpunished?
Remember the 'explanation' Charlie Whiting gave a few years ago? Hamilton was ahead at the apex, and according to Whiting, that gives the driver ahead the right to run the outside car off the track.
I've already said this many times, but I'm still to come across a rule in the sporting code that actually allows this. And I still haven't.


I agree that they should not allow drivers to edge others off the circuit on corner exit, but to suddenly start calling for penalities here (not referring to you here) is pretty funny. This style of racing has long been accepted by the stewards, to penalise Lewis for the move on Valterri would be completely out of the blue with no precedent. General consensus here after Monza - I am referring now to Sainz pushing Albon into the freaking gravel - that it was horses for courses and Albon was stupid for trying to stick it out. Hilarious watching peoples opinions change like p*** in the wind really.

I personally think they shouldn't allow it - but you need to make that clear to the drivers before the fact, not suddenly after having it been accepted by the stewards for pretty much all of racing history - I mean I certainly can't remember any circumstance where a driver was penalised for this
Well, it's always the same problem; we don't know what the alledged rule says, or which interpretation allows it, but Albon was on the outside and slighly further back at the apex. So, according to Whiting, Sainz was allowed to run him off the track.
I didn't really remember it, nor the discussion that followed it, but finding Albon stupid for trying it is downright unsporting. As, in my understanding, is the very idea that a driver can "own" the racing line.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Wasn't that the argument actually used by Masi for not penalising Leclerc at Monza after forcing Hamilton off the track, but we want that to change for Hamilton?

I don't recall what happened or was said in Monza. I just don't agree with the "leave the track or we crash" mentality, which I think you too have been quite vocal about. Or don't we think it's a problem when it's Hamilton?

No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:01 pm 
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2019 points after US Grand Prix in Austin, Tx.

1 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes -381
2 Valtteri Bottas Mercedes -314
3 Charles Leclerc Ferrari -249
4 Max Verstappen Red Bull -235
5 Sebastian Vettel Ferrari -230
6 Alex Albon Red Bull -84
7 Carlos Sainz McLaren -80
8 Pierre Gasly Toro Rosso -77

There still is a cracking good battle for third place going on with two races to go. Sebastian didn't help is cause this last weekend but he is still within a race win of Charles.

I have to wonder if Ferrari can hold off Max for third after the lack of pace in Austin.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I don't recall what happened or was said in Monza. I just don't agree with the "leave the track or we crash" mentality, which I think you too have been quite vocal about. Or don't we think it's a problem when it's Hamilton?

No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?

That's like saying it's ok to steal because other people have got away with murder.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I don't like it either but then again I was responding to a post asking why Hamilton went unpunished, we change the rules as we go along depending perhaps on who we support or don't support?

No we obviously don't change the rules, I think the penalty no penalty decision just shouldn't depend on whether the innocent party bails out off the track or not.

This was said in Monza and Leclerc should not have won the race, the stewards decided otherwise, people ask for consistency but then others are happy for inconsistency for some reason.

Well apparently you were calling out for penalties in Monza but not in Austin so maybe it's you that's not very consistent. Or do you think Leclerc in Monza was the first driver in history not penalized for forcing another car off the track?

Not long ago it was a slam dunk penalty for moving in the braking zone and forcing another car off the track, for what Hamilton did nobody gets penalised for running a car that is behind off the track on corner entry, so for starters the 2 incidents are not the same.

Why am I going to call for Hamilton to be penalised for doing something less worse then what happened to him in Monza that was unpenalised, this being explained away by Masi at the time because there was no contact, seriously?


It was you that brought up Monza as an example as being a similar incidents that didn't result in a penalty so it was similar enough for you then!

When I questioned that you doubled down and said this -

"I don't understand how it's different, it's a driver running another driver off the track and comment being made, this time It's being suggested that Hamilton be penalised when neither of the previous drivers got penalised for things that I would consider to have been worse"


But now it's not the same?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Greenman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Just coincidence then?

No qualifying advantage, no talk of time lost on straights, it's understandable if someone might wonder even if it's a case of 2+2=5.
.

Look on the viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15448 thread

.

Wow Hamilton actually said that Ferrari have lost power since the FIA technical directive. 8O


I think it's very clear.

Apparently Verstappen was asked why Ferrari performed so poorly and he said because they are no longer cheating. 8O


Not exactly handing in his CV for a future Ferrari drive there Max!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:16 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.perez-takes-important-point-after-furious-kvyat-penalised-for-collision.2gqStxDGBnEvTk9FFdu0bX.html



Typical Kvyat, he so deserves the torpedo moniker. It seems ever since Albon got promoted over him, his performances have been shockingly bad and it looks like he is trying way too hard and looks clumsy in the process. The move on Hulk at Mexico was so bad. That's just somebody sticking his nose when he knows fully well the move was not on at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:36 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.perez-takes-important-point-after-furious-kvyat-penalised-for-collision.2gqStxDGBnEvTk9FFdu0bX.html



Typical Kvyat, he so deserves the torpedo moniker. It seems ever since Albon got promoted over him, his performances have been shockingly bad and it looks like he is trying way too hard and looks clumsy in the process. The move on Hulk at Mexico was so bad. That's just somebody sticking his nose when he knows fully well the move was not on at all.


I think you are being incredibly harsh on kvyat. That move in Mexico was a tiny bit of a nudge. I can't deny that it was wrong in the end, but Verstappen has done these moves before and simply relied on the driver ahead giving more space which usually happens.

You can hardly say all his performances have been shockingly bad since Albon got promoted either... You seem to be basing this on two light contacts right at the end of the race when his actual performance wasn't that bad - actually they were quite good. I also think that Gasly is well suited to his car and Kvyat hasn't exactly gone backwards. Gasly just did not work out at Red Bull.

Did you watch the first race after this switch happened? Kvyat driving up in 6th position for a good deal of the race and finished in 7th 20 seconds ahead of Gasly.

Italy, Kvyat comfortably ahead of Gasly until he had to retire.

I expect you to have a different view on the move on kimi in Singapore, but the stewards did note that he will have made that corner and they also noted that Kimi should have been more aware. He was harvesting energy so he should have expected that this will have given an opportunity to kvyat because of the massive speed difference. Gasly had a great race here. Kvyat was not great, but wasn't poor either.

He beats Gasly in Russia and the car didn't look good there at all anyway.

Japan he was comfortably beaten by Gasly by 10 seconds. But I honestly think Gasly is a different driver now. I was so critical towards him when he was at Red Bull, but he seems pretty good here.

I don't really know what you mean by shocking performance. His race in Mexico overall was not bad. It was simply one bad move which i can understand you can call poor. But poor performance that race? - Overall i just can't agree with that.

Even the most recent race, he did in the end out race his team mate. Overtook him right near the end and was very quick at this stage. He unfortunately had a really slow pit stop earlier on which won't have helped. His performance again was pretty good. And I will admit, he did ruin it a bit at the end. But i think you are being way too critical towards him.

He simply hasn't been that bad this season. I feel the same way about Grosjean. I think some people just base drivers seasons too heavily on their past and miss out the good things they have done this season. He's had a podium while the other 2 team mates of his have both had a chance at Red Bull and have not yet done so.

His season has not been excellent and he has had a few avoidable incidents (but so has Verstappen?), but nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making it look.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:26 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.perez-takes-important-point-after-furious-kvyat-penalised-for-collision.2gqStxDGBnEvTk9FFdu0bX.html


Another example of being forced off the track at corner exit being punishable, to all those naysayers that say it never gets punished.

It does seem like the outside driver needs to hold firm and stay on track and actually let themselves be physically bopped off the track by the other car in order to get the other driver penalised though, however in Austria Leclerc did exactly this and held his ground but Max was not penalised...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:34 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I enjoyed the race, but I do feel they should be far stricter about cars going outside the track all the time.


Also didn't LH force VB off the track and it went unpunished?
Remember the 'explanation' Charlie Whiting gave a few years ago? Hamilton was ahead at the apex, and according to Whiting, that gives the driver ahead the right to run the outside car off the track.
I've already said this many times, but I'm still to come across a rule in the sporting code that actually allows this. And I still haven't.


I agree that they should not allow drivers to edge others off the circuit on corner exit, but to suddenly start calling for penalities here (not referring to you here) is pretty funny. This style of racing has long been accepted by the stewards, to penalise Lewis for the move on Valterri would be completely out of the blue with no precedent. General consensus here after Monza - I am referring now to Sainz pushing Albon into the freaking gravel - that it was horses for courses and Albon was stupid for trying to stick it out. Hilarious watching peoples opinions change like p*** in the wind really.

I personally think they shouldn't allow it - but you need to make that clear to the drivers before the fact, not suddenly after having it been accepted by the stewards for pretty much all of racing history - I mean I certainly can't remember any circumstance where a driver was penalised for this


Yes, I was calling for a penalty for LH forcing VB off, (in the end it wasn't needed because VB got past later on, but if LH had won, his defensive driving was wrong and he deserved a penalty). Also a 5 second penalty would have dropped LH back to 3rd behind Max, so perhaps they should have dished it out anyway.

Then we see literally a few minutes later in the race, Kyvat gets a 5 second penalty for forcing another driver off the track, so this is no sudden call for penalties for something that typically never gets punished. This kind of thing does indeed get punished a reasonable amount of the time, particularly when we also include Leclerc at turn 2 in Japan.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:01 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Kvyat surely had the nerve to be angry for the 5-second penalty he received for colliding with Checo. It's clearly his fault & well deserved. Video of the collision below:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.perez-takes-important-point-after-furious-kvyat-penalised-for-collision.2gqStxDGBnEvTk9FFdu0bX.html



Typical Kvyat, he so deserves the torpedo moniker. It seems ever since Albon got promoted over him, his performances have been shockingly bad and it looks like he is trying way too hard and looks clumsy in the process. The move on Hulk at Mexico was so bad. That's just somebody sticking his nose when he knows fully well the move was not on at all.


I think you are being incredibly harsh on kvyat. That move in Mexico was a tiny bit of a nudge. I can't deny that it was wrong in the end, but Verstappen has done these moves before and simply relied on the driver ahead giving more space which usually happens.

You can hardly say all his performances have been shockingly bad since Albon got promoted either... You seem to be basing this on two light contacts right at the end of the race when his actual performance wasn't that bad - actually they were quite good. I also think that Gasly is well suited to his car and Kvyat hasn't exactly gone backwards. Gasly just did not work out at Red Bull.

Did you watch the first race after this switch happened? Kvyat driving up in 6th position for a good deal of the race and finished in 7th 20 seconds ahead of Gasly.

Italy, Kvyat comfortably ahead of Gasly until he had to retire.

I expect you to have a different view on the move on kimi in Singapore, but the stewards did note that he will have made that corner and they also noted that Kimi should have been more aware. He was harvesting energy so he should have expected that this will have given an opportunity to kvyat because of the massive speed difference. Gasly had a great race here. Kvyat was not great, but wasn't poor either.

He beats Gasly in Russia and the car didn't look good there at all anyway.

Japan he was comfortably beaten by Gasly by 10 seconds. But I honestly think Gasly is a different driver now. I was so critical towards him when he was at Red Bull, but he seems pretty good here.

I don't really know what you mean by shocking performance. His race in Mexico overall was not bad. It was simply one bad move which i can understand you can call poor. But poor performance that race? - Overall i just can't agree with that.

Even the most recent race, he did in the end out race his team mate. Overtook him right near the end and was very quick at this stage. He unfortunately had a really slow pit stop earlier on which won't have helped. His performance again was pretty good. And I will admit, he did ruin it a bit at the end. But i think you are being way too critical towards him.

He simply hasn't been that bad this season. I feel the same way about Grosjean. I think some people just base drivers seasons too heavily on their past and miss out the good things they have done this season. He's had a podium while the other 2 team mates of his have both had a chance at Red Bull and have not yet done so.

His season has not been excellent and he has had a few avoidable incidents (but so has Verstappen?), but nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making it look.


He's basically matched two drivers who have been a long way off a top driver for speed.

I actually don't think he's particularly crash happy. I just don't think he's very good full stop. At this point to even be judged an average F1 driver you need to be well beating Gasly.

I think he's worse than Grosjean.

Don't forget as well that in the race he got that podium he was actually well out performed by Albon.

Kudos for managing to criticise Verstappen and big up Grosjean in one completely unrelated post though. I can complete my Hogweed bingo card for this GP.


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