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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-midfield-edge-down-to-little-stuff-at-every-race-sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed


Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason. ;)


Well this post is entirely false. Here is why -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370


I think it's clear people were expecting Sainz to walk over Norris. He has on points but certainly not in terms of performances.

Seeing this reinforces my opinion that had Sainz performing like this against Norris in a poorer car that was not able to score consistent points he'd be getting panned rather than praised.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-midfield-edge-down-to-little-stuff-at-every-race-sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed


Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason. ;)


Well this post is entirely false. Here is why -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370


I think it's clear people were expecting Sainz to walk over Norris. He has on points but certainly not in terms of performances.

Seeing this reinforces my opinion that had Sainz performing like this against Norris in a poorer car that was not able to score consistent points he'd be getting panned rather than praised.


Well it is clear you don't rate him.
And I have read enough forums in multiple languages to know that people don't rate him either for whatever reason.
Any time Norris had a good weekend the threads were very active. But when Sainz had one it was very quiet.

You are not alone though as Brown/Seidl said months ago how they were surprised by Sainz's speed.
It makes you wonder if we ever watch the same races (with live timing).

Since Perez is your favorite you should know that I rate him very highly and I think it is a tragedy he has never had a top car and if it was not for the Ferrari interference in 2012, Alonso would have had 1 win less. But hey it is what it is.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Posts: 16446
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Could Sainz's awesome performance this year also down to the McLaren car? McLaren hasn't brought a big upgrade package but instead has brought small upgrades to every race which is why it kept improving ever so slightly to build such a cushion to the midfield.
https://f1i.com/news/358709-mclaren-midfield-edge-down-to-little-stuff-at-every-race-sainz.html

IMO Sainz in this year's McLaren would be more comfortable & competitive around most of the tracks when compared to Checo in '16 or '17 Force India. McLaren's chassis & downforce were always awesome whereas in '16 & '17 Force India was best of the rest mainly due to the (then best)Mercedes engine & because most of the midfield teams were struggling to improve.

Mod edit: URL fixed


Like every driver.
The only way to make "more" points than what is possible is through luck.

I don't understand why you and others are trying very hard not to give any credit to Sainz Jr.

I remember a thread at the beginning of the year where people could vote on who would beat who between Norris vs Sainz and Norris was the clear winner in any poll I have read on the internet.

The reality is not what people were expecting and they don't like it, so there must be a reason. ;)


Well this post is entirely false. Here is why -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15370


I think it's clear people were expecting Sainz to walk over Norris. He has on points but certainly not in terms of performances.

Seeing this reinforces my opinion that had Sainz performing like this against Norris in a poorer car that was not able to score consistent points he'd be getting panned rather than praised.


Well it is clear you don't rate him.
And I have read enough forums in multiple languages to know that people don't rate him either for whatever reason.
Any time Norris had a good weekend the threads were very active. But when Sainz had one it was very quiet.

You are not alone though as Brown/Seidl said months ago how they were surprised by Sainz's speed.
It makes you wonder if we ever watch the same races (with live timing).

Since Perez is your favorite you should know that I rate him very highly and I think it is a tragedy he has never had a top car and if it was not for the Ferrari interference in 2012, Alonso would have had 1 win less. But hey it is what it is.


Norris beating Sainz is simply more noteworthy because we expect Sainz to be able to beat a rookie. The poll at the beginning of the year indicates that.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:47 am 
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Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.


...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:16 am 
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Posts: 773
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.


...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.


Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:26 am 
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Location: Michigan, USA
F1 Racer wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.

...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.

Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.

If you're looking at it like that, anything but 1st is meaningless.

6th place would be a nice morale boost for Carlos and for the team. It would mean he beat the combined point earning of the #2 Red Bull seat over the course of the year, finishing ahead of both drivers who drove in that car. That's a statement that means McLaren isn't too far from fighting with the big teams. Since 2016, I don't think anyone has beaten a driver from one of the Big Three.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:39 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.

...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.

Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.

If you're looking at it like that, anything but 1st is meaningless.

6th place would be a nice morale boost for Carlos and for the team. It would mean he beat the combined point earning of the #2 Red Bull seat over the course of the year, finishing ahead of both drivers who drove in that car. That's a statement that means McLaren isn't too far from fighting with the big teams. Since 2016, I don't think anyone has beaten a driver from one of the Big Three.

To be fair, both drivers spent around half the season in a Toro Rosso, which was generally slower than the McLaren in race trim.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Congrats to Carlos Jr. for a well earned podium even if he didn't get to celebrate it from there.

That was a great drive from the very back of the grid. Yes, he had some help from retirements and a few things falling his way but he did do what he needed to.

I am hoping that Carlos can start to make a few more trips to the podium and to earn some by outperforming drivers from the top three teams.

At 92 points on the season Carlos is only 3 points adrift from Pierre Gasly. Looks like that will be the battle for the 2019 "Best of the Rest".

Gasly doesn't qualify for that because he drove half a season for Red Bull.

...and even so Carlos could end up beating Pierre in the WDC standings. Will be interesting to watch the results from Abu Dhabi.

Not really because whether you come 6th or 7th in the WDC is kind of meaningless.

If you're looking at it like that, anything but 1st is meaningless.

6th place would be a nice morale boost for Carlos and for the team. It would mean he beat the combined point earning of the #2 Red Bull seat over the course of the year, finishing ahead of both drivers who drove in that car. That's a statement that means McLaren isn't too far from fighting with the big teams. Since 2016, I don't think anyone has beaten a driver from one of the Big Three.


No, getting runner up spot or maybe even 3rd in the WDC is not meaningless, but after that no one really remembers where you came. A couple of years ago, or maybe even last season, some people were wondering if Alonso could come 10th in the WDC in his terrible McLaren, but in reality it didn't matter whether he did or not, the same with this 6th/7th battle with Gasly/Sainz.

As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:15 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.

Okay, so not as close as I had thought. Oh well. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:41 am 
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It's hard being a McLaren tragic hey Ex...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:45 am 
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Ruste13 wrote:
It's hard being a McLaren tragic hey Ex...

It has been. This year I've been enjoying it, just because it's nice for the team to have something to fight for every weekend. I'll get tired of it if there's no step forward next year, but for now not so bad...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.

Okay, so not as close as I had thought. Oh well. :lol:


But McLaren are the best of the rest by a good margin. They've got an all-round car which is good on literally most tracks due to their brilliant chassis & downforce. No doubt, they're far off from Red Bull now but in 2021 when they'll use Mercedes engines, I believe they'll be in the top tier group.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:09 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
As for the supposed morale boost of beating the number 2 Red Bull seat, he obviously is nowhere near doing this, (Gasly scored I think 62 points and Albon 68 points with a race left so a combined 130 points in total, Sainz is on 95 points). So no statement would be made, McLaren is still far from fighting the big teams as they are still comfortably losing to the number 2 Red Bull car even when it is driven by bad drivers.

Okay, so not as close as I had thought. Oh well. :lol:


But McLaren are the best of the rest by a good margin. They've got an all-round car which is good on literally most tracks due to their brilliant chassis & downforce. No doubt, they're far off from Red Bull now but in 2021 when they'll use Mercedes engines, I believe they'll be in the top tier group.


I think McLaren will also be very much aided by the driver lineup they have in place. Both Sainz and Norris have learned a lot in 2019 and improved their racecraft. I expect that Albon will find a lot of competition from Sainz and Norris next year in the WDC.

That said McLaren have a long way to go to catch Red Bull in the WCC.
1 Mercedes 739
2 Ferrari 504
3 Red Bull 417
4 McLaren 145
5 Renault 91
6 Toro Rosso 85

They will definitely need to up their game to get into the top tier.

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