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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:40 am 
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Johnson wrote:
The only danger is he “Alonso’s” himself, that being he is blocked from joining numerous teams despite being recognised as the best. It’s the only time in F1 history I can recall arguably the best driver on the grid unable to get himself into a top car for the best part of a decade - circa 2011-2019.

This is largely due to Red Bulls drive program and in part Alonso’s somewhat toxic tendencies. In the past, if you were quick, you would always find a way to the best cars. A few tops seats will open up in the next 3-4 years including both Mercedes seats, probably a Ferrari seat in the next 1-2 seasons too.


How did Alonso come in this equation :? Alonso had his chance in Mclaren-Mercedes and Ferari. Anything is possible but with young drivers emerging I think his time is up in F1. If he wants to have fun driving F1 cars again may be some midfield team might be interested to take him.

As far as Max goes. He only did one big mistake in SPA. He would like RBR to improve next year though as he wants to be there but if it does not work out. I think he is prepared to go to Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:21 am 
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Johnson wrote:
The only danger is he “Alonso’s” himself, that being he is blocked from joining numerous teams despite being recognised as the best. It’s the only time in F1 history I can recall arguably the best driver on the grid unable to get himself into a top car for the best part of a decade - circa 2011-2019.

This is largely due to Red Bulls drive program and in part Alonso’s somewhat toxic tendencies. In the past, if you were quick, you would always find a way to the best cars. A few tops seats will open up in the next 3-4 years including both Mercedes seats, probably a Ferrari seat in the next 1-2 seasons too.

Alonso being the best would just be your opinion, I think the teams that count see him as just being one of the best.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:32 am 
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Randine wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.


I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.



Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.


A few counter points.

1) Depending who you are & your talent window, I think with Marko you're either the golden child or the retarded cousin. What other team boss would so blatantly throw one of his drivers under a bus so as to keep the other content (See Turkey 2010 & Baku 2018 as examples)?

2) Probably has but he's also only in his 2nd year in F1 in a team that's not built around him. Verstappen on the other hand is now in his 5th season in the sport & has the entire RB F1 organisation working for him.

3) Verstappen did beat Ricciardo but I will say, & I know i'm in the minority here, I firmly believe, taking a holistic view of the situation, the final scoreline flatters Verstappen very, very much.


Re point 3, I agree!

What most people do not take into account is that Dan was at Red Bull for 5 years.
And when did he join? Right on the back of them winning 4 championships in a row.

Imagine the excitement joining Red Bull for 2014. Thinking I have a real shot at the title.

When Dan had something to prove (mainly 2014), he was amazing.
Then year after year Red Bull talked up the next year how they would be contenders again, only for Dan to not get the right equipment, for 5 years.

Dan beat Max 2 years out of 3, and in the end was sick of waiting for a real title shot.

Now Max is about to hit his 5th year at Red Bull, everyone expects him to jump ship.
But how much flak did Dan cop for doing the same last year?

And what if Max does go to Merc and the same thing happens to him as happened to Dan, that is Merc slip backwards and don’t win a championship for 6+ years.
Do you think that might effect Max’s motivation? I certainly do.

Just like Dan’s motivation at Red Bull was lacking a little in his last year, which flattered Max.

Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:37 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The only danger is he “Alonso’s” himself, that being he is blocked from joining numerous teams despite being recognised as the best. It’s the only time in F1 history I can recall arguably the best driver on the grid unable to get himself into a top car for the best part of a decade - circa 2011-2019.

This is largely due to Red Bulls drive program and in part Alonso’s somewhat toxic tendencies. In the past, if you were quick, you would always find a way to the best cars. A few tops seats will open up in the next 3-4 years including both Mercedes seats, probably a Ferrari seat in the next 1-2 seasons too.


How did Alonso come in this equation :? Alonso had his chance in Mclaren-Mercedes and Ferari. Anything is possible but with young drivers emerging I think his time is up in F1. If he wants to have fun driving F1 cars again may be some midfield team might be interested to take him.

As far as Max goes. He only did one big mistake in SPA. He would like RBR to improve next year though as he wants to be there but if it does not work out. I think he is prepared to go to Mercedes.

Well I believe that once again he might be given the option to drive for Mercedes, I'm hoping next year that Red Bull will have a strong year, I'm thinking more for the sport here because what happens with Honda if Verstappen was to leave in 2021, I think presently that Verstappen is carrying the Red Bull Honda alliance.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.

Thing is with Leclerk and Hamitlon, they have one thing over Max. That is the multiple world champions team mate they were fighting. We've all seen the best of Vettel and Alonso (among their worst too). Many on that grid valuated Fernando as the best, meaning Lewis's prestige level has a notch higher than some other drivers on the grid.

Max is a talent but unlike the other two, he has yet to have a real challenging team mate that we know can win a title. I still hope we get a LeClerk, Max or Hamilton partnership in the same team. If Max is worth .2 more than those two drivers... it also makes a bit of a mockery of their team mates...

And Max reminds me of Vettel a little bit, the new prodigal son. We've seen what can go badly for Vettel when he isn't being cuddled. Max has Horner and Marko holding his hand outside of the car. Max might not do so well in a team like Ferrari that expect results and very few mistakes, we also know they don't cuddle their drivers. Likewise at Merc.



Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.


A few counter points.

1) Depending who you are & your talent window, I think with Marko you're either the golden child or the retarded cousin. What other team boss would so blatantly throw one of his drivers under a bus so as to keep the other content (See Turkey 2010 & Baku 2018 as examples)?

2) Probably has but he's also only in his 2nd year in F1 in a team that's not built around him. Verstappen on the other hand is now in his 5th season in the sport & has the entire RB F1 organisation working for him.

3) Verstappen did beat Ricciardo but I will say, & I know i'm in the minority here, I firmly believe, taking a holistic view of the situation, the final scoreline flatters Verstappen very, very much.


Re point 3, I agree!

What most people do not take into account is that Dan was at Red Bull for 5 years.
And when did he join? Right on the back of them winning 4 championships in a row.

Imagine the excitement joining Red Bull for 2014. Thinking I have a real shot at the title.

When Dan had something to prove (mainly 2014), he was amazing.
Then year after year Red Bull talked up the next year how they would be contenders again, only for Dan to not get the right equipment, for 5 years.

Dan beat Max 2 years out of 3, and in the end was sick of waiting for a real title shot.

Now Max is about to hit his 5th year at Red Bull, everyone expects him to jump ship.
But how much flak did Dan cop for doing the same last year?

And what if Max does go to Merc and the same thing happens to him as happened to Dan, that is Merc slip backwards and don’t win a championship for 6+ years.
Do you think that might effect Max’s motivation? I certainly do.

Just like Dan’s motivation at Red Bull was lacking a little in his last year, which flattered Max.

Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:26 am 
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Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:42 am 
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I'd argue that Verstappen probably edges Ricciardo on pace and, as his race management improves, will ultimately turn out to be the better driver. But, during their time together, Ricciardo was certainly a match for Verstappen overall. Reliability was not kind to Ricciardo during the latter stages of their time together.
Back on the subject of this topic. I'd expect that Honda powerplant to improve and RB to get their act together again in terms of a decent chassis. On that basis, Verstappen should be in a position to challenge for the title within the next year or two. Failing that, I'd suspect that options to be open to him.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:06 am 
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Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:54 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


I can't speak for other Australian's here but personally i'm on record as saying I've been pretty disappointed by the standard of Ricciardo's driving this year &, that Hulkenberg has compared pretty reasonably against him.

For me, thinking a bit about team dynamics, it's not really about Verstappen against Ricciardo as it wasn't really about Vettel vs Webber. It was more about how RB & Marko in particular so blatantly favoured Vettel & Verstappen at the expense of the other 2. I think of Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2010 & 2011, Baku 2016. I think of the disproportionate, coincidental or otherwise, reliability issues & general "bad luck" that plagued the Australian drivers. I think of the comments made by various members of senior management that infer a preference for one driver at the expense of the other (Thinking Horners comments regarding Verstappen).

I feel that RB treated Vettel then as they do Vestappen now as some type of golden child who must be pampered & kept content at the expense of anyone who may interfere with their destiny. I feel that RB want to set records & Vettel & Verstappen were & are the perfect vehicles for those records & as a result their team mates suffer.

Now I very openly admit Vettel was a much superior driver to Webber but I don't think RB were entirely fair on how they were treated. I will also say that anyone who judges last year as a fair comparison of the talent of Verstappen & Ricciardo is not looking at the full picture.

It was quite obvious that last season, even early when Ricciardo was ahead of Verstappen winning races while Verstappen was busy crash testing the new RB14, that the team was becoming increasingly Verstappen centric. Then after, well, really including, Monaco, Ricciardo suffered an unbelievable run of mechanical issues. Post Monaco he retired from 6 of the remaining 15 races, the worst record of any driver on the grid. By comparison Verstappen suffered 1 retirement. Add 4 grid penalties totaling 95 grid placings (Germany, Italy, Russia & Brazil), compared to 2 for Verstappen totaling 48 grid positions (Russia & USA) & the distraction of contract negotiations including constant media speculation regarding his future, I honestly believe Ricciardo drove very we'll to finish as close to Verstappen as he did.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:07 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


I can't speak for other Australian's here but personally i'm on record as saying I've been pretty disappointed by the standard of Ricciardo's driving this year &, that Hulkenberg has compared pretty reasonably against him.

For me, thinking a bit about team dynamics, it's not really about Verstappen against Ricciardo as it wasn't really about Vettel vs Webber. It was more about how RB & Marko in particular so blatantly favoured Vettel & Verstappen at the expense of the other 2. I think of Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2010 & 2011, Baku 2016. I think of the disproportionate, coincidental or otherwise, reliability issues & general "bad luck" that plagued the Australian drivers. I think of the comments made by various members of senior management that infer a preference for one driver at the expense of the other (Thinking Horners comments regarding Verstappen).

I feel that RB treated Vettel then as they do Vestappen now as some type of golden child who must be pampered & kept content at the expense of anyone who may interfere with their destiny. I feel that RB want to set records & Vettel & Verstappen were & are the perfect vehicles for those records & as a result their team mates suffer.

Now I very openly admit Vettel was a much superior driver to Webber but I don't think RB were entirely fair on how they were treated. I will also say that anyone who judges last year as a fair comparison of the talent of Verstappen & Ricciardo is not looking at the full picture.

It was quite obvious that last season, even early when Ricciardo was ahead of Verstappen winning races while Verstappen was busy crash testing the new RB14, that the team was becoming increasingly Verstappen centric. Then after, well, really including, Monaco, Ricciardo suffered an unbelievable run of mechanical issues. Post Monaco he retired from 6 of the remaining 15 races, the worst record of any driver on the grid. By comparison Verstappen suffered 1 retirement. Add 4 grid penalties totaling 95 grid placings (Germany, Italy, Russia & Brazil), compared to 2 for Verstappen totaling 48 grid positions (Russia & USA) & the distraction of contract negotiations including constant media speculation regarding his future, I honestly believe Ricciardo drove very we'll to finish as close to Verstappen as he did.


Ricciardo drove very well because he is a very good driver. One of the best there is.

I think your theory falls down. On a few things.

Marko doesn't have ultimate power in the team.

Verstappen isn't a Red Bull junior driver. Why would Marko support him particularly?

Red Bull did not criticise Webber for ignoring team orders in Silverstone.

Red Bull issued team orders against Vettel. E.G Hungary 2010 and Malaysia 2013.

Verstappen also had many failures over the 2017 and 2018 seasons.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:02 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:

I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


I can't speak for other Australian's here but personally i'm on record as saying I've been pretty disappointed by the standard of Ricciardo's driving this year &, that Hulkenberg has compared pretty reasonably against him.

For me, thinking a bit about team dynamics, it's not really about Verstappen against Ricciardo as it wasn't really about Vettel vs Webber. It was more about how RB & Marko in particular so blatantly favoured Vettel & Verstappen at the expense of the other 2. I think of Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2010 & 2011, Baku 2016. I think of the disproportionate, coincidental or otherwise, reliability issues & general "bad luck" that plagued the Australian drivers. I think of the comments made by various members of senior management that infer a preference for one driver at the expense of the other (Thinking Horners comments regarding Verstappen).

I feel that RB treated Vettel then as they do Vestappen now as some type of golden child who must be pampered & kept content at the expense of anyone who may interfere with their destiny. I feel that RB want to set records & Vettel & Verstappen were & are the perfect vehicles for those records & as a result their team mates suffer.

Now I very openly admit Vettel was a much superior driver to Webber but I don't think RB were entirely fair on how they were treated. I will also say that anyone who judges last year as a fair comparison of the talent of Verstappen & Ricciardo is not looking at the full picture.

It was quite obvious that last season, even early when Ricciardo was ahead of Verstappen winning races while Verstappen was busy crash testing the new RB14, that the team was becoming increasingly Verstappen centric. Then after, well, really including, Monaco, Ricciardo suffered an unbelievable run of mechanical issues. Post Monaco he retired from 6 of the remaining 15 races, the worst record of any driver on the grid. By comparison Verstappen suffered 1 retirement. Add 4 grid penalties totaling 95 grid placings (Germany, Italy, Russia & Brazil), compared to 2 for Verstappen totaling 48 grid positions (Russia & USA) & the distraction of contract negotiations including constant media speculation regarding his future, I honestly believe Ricciardo drove very we'll to finish as close to Verstappen as he did.


Ricciardo drove very well because he is a very good driver. One of the best there is.

I think your theory falls down. On a few things.

Marko doesn't have ultimate power in the team.

Verstappen isn't a Red Bull junior driver. Why would Marko support him particularly?

Red Bull did not criticise Webber for ignoring team orders in Silverstone.

Red Bull issued team orders against Vettel. E.G Hungary 2010 and Malaysia 2013.

Verstappen also had many failures over the 2017 and 2018 seasons.


Let me address those points.

Marko: I think Marko carries a lot of clout in RB, especially when it comes to the drivers. An example of this is Turkey 2010. If you remember Horner initial came out in support of Webber while Marko backed Vettel. Then quite quickly Horner changed his tune to support Vettel. It was Marko who led the chorus of duel responsibility for Baku 2016.

Verstappen & RB YDP: You must remember in all this that RB are on record as saying F1 is a "marketing exercise" which mostly targets young males. What drivers do you think are more relevent to the marketing philosophy? A teenage driver & an early 20's driver from a continent with a population or 3/4 of a billion people or a mid 20's & mid to late 30's driver from a continent with a population of 24 million people? How good would it look for Verstappen to hold the record for the youngest in just about everything driving a RB? It'll look even better if they hold the 1st 2 spots on the " Youngest driver to" record list with both Vettel & Verstappen.

Webber Silverstone 2011: That was the first race RB issued team orders. After Ferrari's antics in Germany 12 mths earlier, RB were very vocal in stating how they let their drivers race no matter the circumstances. Even Dietrich Mateschitz publicly stated stated words to the effect that he rather his team lose a race than win one with team orders. Then all of a sudden, in a mid season race, with Vettel romping towards the WC, 80 + pts clear of Webber, & Button, they call team orders. Funny that RB were willing to gamble with no team orders in AD 2010 when Webber was the obvious & safe choice for the championship that night. Luckily the gamble paid off & the right guy won the championship.

Vettel team orders: The team orders in Hungary 2010 was to try to get Webber, who was in 3rd with Vettel leading & Alonso in 2nd, into 2nd place behind Vettel. The fact that it all turned pear shape doesn't change the initial intent of the orders. What did the team do after Malaysia 2013 when it was Vettel who wronged? They released some stupid press release with both Vettel & Webber in a contrived photo & they partly justified Vettels actions saying it was payback for Brazil 2012.

Verstappen failures: In 2017 Verstappen had 7 retirements (3 via collision, 4 via component failure) & Ricciardo had 6 (1 via collision, 5 via component failure). Verstappen finished 32 pts behind Ricciardo. In 2018, Verstappen had 3 retirements ( 1 collision, 2 component), Ricciardo had 8 (2 collision, 6 component). Verstappen finished 79 pts ahead of Ricciardo.

_________________
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After USA- 19) - 137 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 357 trophies available, 24 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Last edited by Jezza13 on Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:37 am 
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Sorry to barge in guys, but what team orders were issued in Hungary 2010?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:

I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


I can't speak for other Australian's here but personally i'm on record as saying I've been pretty disappointed by the standard of Ricciardo's driving this year &, that Hulkenberg has compared pretty reasonably against him.

For me, thinking a bit about team dynamics, it's not really about Verstappen against Ricciardo as it wasn't really about Vettel vs Webber. It was more about how RB & Marko in particular so blatantly favoured Vettel & Verstappen at the expense of the other 2. I think of Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2010 & 2011, Baku 2016. I think of the disproportionate, coincidental or otherwise, reliability issues & general "bad luck" that plagued the Australian drivers. I think of the comments made by various members of senior management that infer a preference for one driver at the expense of the other (Thinking Horners comments regarding Verstappen).

I feel that RB treated Vettel then as they do Vestappen now as some type of golden child who must be pampered & kept content at the expense of anyone who may interfere with their destiny. I feel that RB want to set records & Vettel & Verstappen were & are the perfect vehicles for those records & as a result their team mates suffer.

Now I very openly admit Vettel was a much superior driver to Webber but I don't think RB were entirely fair on how they were treated. I will also say that anyone who judges last year as a fair comparison of the talent of Verstappen & Ricciardo is not looking at the full picture.

It was quite obvious that last season, even early when Ricciardo was ahead of Verstappen winning races while Verstappen was busy crash testing the new RB14, that the team was becoming increasingly Verstappen centric. Then after, well, really including, Monaco, Ricciardo suffered an unbelievable run of mechanical issues. Post Monaco he retired from 6 of the remaining 15 races, the worst record of any driver on the grid. By comparison Verstappen suffered 1 retirement. Add 4 grid penalties totaling 95 grid placings (Germany, Italy, Russia & Brazil), compared to 2 for Verstappen totaling 48 grid positions (Russia & USA) & the distraction of contract negotiations including constant media speculation regarding his future, I honestly believe Ricciardo drove very we'll to finish as close to Verstappen as he did.


Ricciardo drove very well because he is a very good driver. One of the best there is.

I think your theory falls down. On a few things.

Marko doesn't have ultimate power in the team.

Verstappen isn't a Red Bull junior driver. Why would Marko support him particularly?

Red Bull did not criticise Webber for ignoring team orders in Silverstone.

Red Bull issued team orders against Vettel. E.G Hungary 2010 and Malaysia 2013.

Verstappen also had many failures over the 2017 and 2018 seasons.


Let me address those points.

Marko: I think Marko carries a lot of clout in RB, especially when it comes to the drivers. An example of this is Turkey 2010. If you remember Horner initial came out in support of Webber while Marko backed Vettel. Then quite quickly Horner changed his tune to support Vettel. It was Marko who led the chorus of duel responsibility for Baku 2016.

Verstappen & RB YDP: You must remember in all this that RB are on record as saying F1 is a "marketing exercise" which mostly targets young males. What drivers do you think are more relevent to the marketing philosophy? A teenage driver & an early 20's driver from a continent with a population or 3/4 of a billion people or a mid 20's & mid to late 30's driver from a continent with a population of 24 million people? How good would it look for Verstappen to hold the record for the youngest in just about everything driving a RB? It'll look even better if they hold the 1st 2 spots on the " Youngest driver to" record list with both Vettel & Verstappen.

I won't comment on Markko and the YDP because that's all opinion and supposition.

Webber Silverstone 2011: That was the first race RB issued team orders. After Ferrari's antics in Germany 12 mths earlier, RB were very vocal in stating how they let their drivers race no matter the circumstances. Even Dietrich Mateschitz publicly stated stated words to the effect that he rather his team lose a race than win one with team orders. Then all of a sudden, in a mid season race, with Vettel romping towards the WC, 80 + pts clear of Webber, & Button, they call team orders. Funny that RB were willing to gamble with no team orders in AD 2010 when Webber was the obvious & safe choice for the championship that night. First off team orders were against the rules. Secondly did they even have an opportunity to apply team orders? Luckily the gamble paid off & the right guy won the championship.

Vettel team orders: The team orders in Hungary 2010 was to try to get Webber, who was in 3rd with Vettel leading & Alonso in 2nd, into 2nd place behind Vettel. The fact that it all turned pear shape doesn't change the initial intent of the orders. Doesn't sound like the actions of a team that is against WebberWhat did the team do after Malaysia 2013 when it was Vettel who wronged? They released some stupid press release with both Vettel & Webber in a contrived photo & they partly justified Vettels actions saying it was payback for Brazil 2012. team orders were issued in the race against Vettel. Why would a team fully behind Vettel tell him to hold station behind Webber. Vettel ignored them but the orders were issued.

Verstappen failures: In 2017 Verstappen had 7 retirements (3 via collision, 4 via component failure) & Ricciardo had 6 (1 via collision, 5 via component failure). Verstappen finished 32 pts behind Ricciardo. In 2018, Verstappen had 3 retirements ( 1 collision, 2 component), Ricciardo had 8 (2 collision, 6 component). Verstappen finished 79 pts ahead of Ricciardo.So Verstappen suffered a lot of failures but Ricciardo had more. Hamilton had more failures than Rosberg 2014-16 as well. I don't see it as a confirmation of bias


There's just too many things that contradict your theory for me to truly buy into it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Sorry to barge in guys, but what team orders were issued in Hungary 2010?


Under the safety car Vettel was told to back the guy in the second place up to allow Webber in 3rd to pass in some way (I can't remember the exact mechanics of it.)

This resulted in Vettel getting a drive through penalty.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:49 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


I can't speak for other Australian's here but personally i'm on record as saying I've been pretty disappointed by the standard of Ricciardo's driving this year &, that Hulkenberg has compared pretty reasonably against him.

For me, thinking a bit about team dynamics, it's not really about Verstappen against Ricciardo as it wasn't really about Vettel vs Webber. It was more about how RB & Marko in particular so blatantly favoured Vettel & Verstappen at the expense of the other 2. I think of Turkey 2010, Silverstone 2010 & 2011, Baku 2016. I think of the disproportionate, coincidental or otherwise, reliability issues & general "bad luck" that plagued the Australian drivers. I think of the comments made by various members of senior management that infer a preference for one driver at the expense of the other (Thinking Horners comments regarding Verstappen).

I feel that RB treated Vettel then as they do Vestappen now as some type of golden child who must be pampered & kept content at the expense of anyone who may interfere with their destiny. I feel that RB want to set records & Vettel & Verstappen were & are the perfect vehicles for those records & as a result their team mates suffer.

Now I very openly admit Vettel was a much superior driver to Webber but I don't think RB were entirely fair on how they were treated. I will also say that anyone who judges last year as a fair comparison of the talent of Verstappen & Ricciardo is not looking at the full picture.

It was quite obvious that last season, even early when Ricciardo was ahead of Verstappen winning races while Verstappen was busy crash testing the new RB14, that the team was becoming increasingly Verstappen centric. Then after, well, really including, Monaco, Ricciardo suffered an unbelievable run of mechanical issues. Post Monaco he retired from 6 of the remaining 15 races, the worst record of any driver on the grid. By comparison Verstappen suffered 1 retirement. Add 4 grid penalties totaling 95 grid placings (Germany, Italy, Russia & Brazil), compared to 2 for Verstappen totaling 48 grid positions (Russia & USA) & the distraction of contract negotiations including constant media speculation regarding his future, I honestly believe Ricciardo drove very we'll to finish as close to Verstappen as he did.


Agreed.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:54 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:03 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:13 pm 
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Randine wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Three things here -

Aren't Red Bull known for being the least cuddly team around? Isn't Marko accused of being too harsh with the young drivers?

Surely Leclerc has made as many mistakes in the past 12 months as Verstappen?

He has beaten Ricciardo. Who of course was able to beat Vettel.


A few counter points.

1) Depending who you are & your talent window, I think with Marko you're either the golden child or the retarded cousin. What other team boss would so blatantly throw one of his drivers under a bus so as to keep the other content (See Turkey 2010 & Baku 2018 as examples)?

2) Probably has but he's also only in his 2nd year in F1 in a team that's not built around him. Verstappen on the other hand is now in his 5th season in the sport & has the entire RB F1 organisation working for him.

3) Verstappen did beat Ricciardo but I will say, & I know i'm in the minority here, I firmly believe, taking a holistic view of the situation, the final scoreline flatters Verstappen very, very much.


Re point 3, I agree!

What most people do not take into account is that Dan was at Red Bull for 5 years.
And when did he join? Right on the back of them winning 4 championships in a row.

Imagine the excitement joining Red Bull for 2014. Thinking I have a real shot at the title.

When Dan had something to prove (mainly 2014), he was amazing.
Then year after year Red Bull talked up the next year how they would be contenders again, only for Dan to not get the right equipment, for 5 years.

Dan beat Max 2 years out of 3, and in the end was sick of waiting for a real title shot.

Now Max is about to hit his 5th year at Red Bull, everyone expects him to jump ship.
But how much flak did Dan cop for doing the same last year?

And what if Max does go to Merc and the same thing happens to him as happened to Dan, that is Merc slip backwards and don’t win a championship for 6+ years.
Do you think that might effect Max’s motivation? I certainly do.

Just like Dan’s motivation at Red Bull was lacking a little in his last year, which flattered Max.

Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.

You can use stats in isolation to tell the story you want to tell but the bigger picture tells us that in the last 2 years Verstappen out qualified Ricciardo 20-9.

Regarding the reliability like I said before it became a way to paste over the actual superiority of Verstappen in the races, the only thing that helped to keep Ricciardo in the game to a certain extent was Verstappen crashing out in the races in particular at the beginning of the 2018 season.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Sorry to barge in guys, but what team orders were issued in Hungary 2010?


Under the safety car Vettel was told to back the guy in the second place up to allow Webber in 3rd to pass in some way (I can't remember the exact mechanics of it.)

This resulted in Vettel getting a drive through penalty.


Hm, ok, thanks. It's just that memory is rusty and when I googled that race for orders I couldn't find anything that was issued to Vettel. In any case, that would still fall into Vettel's lap, he had to adhere to the 10 sec (harsh) rule.

But RB did have a horrible pit stop for Vettel that dropped him behind Alonso. So there's that


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

There's just too many things that contradict your theory for me to truly buy into it.


Without carrying this on too far mikey, I will say:

Marko & YDP - Agree it's an opinion based theory but it's a theory not based on national bias. I believe there's enough evidence to add a certain degree of validity to that theory.

Webber Silverstone - Yeah probably using AD 2010 as an example of RB not using team orders was not that smart as they were still illegal at that point. I was although trying to highlight the hypocrisy of RB at Silverstone by issuing T/O's when in reality they were completely un-necessary.

Vettel T/O's - The idea was to get a RB 1-2 in Hungary (Vettel 1st, Webber 2nd). This definitely is no indication of equality. Vettel was always meant to win the race until he screwed the pooch. The idea was to orchestrate a RB 1-2.

Verstappen retirements - This wasn't meant as an indication of RB bias but simply to add support to my thoughts that the results of last year actually flatter Verstappen when it comes to his season vs Ricciardo's.

Overall my argument is there's basically 2 ways to favour someone over another. You can either take something away from the unfavoured person, or you can give something extra to the favoured person. I'm not saying RB did the former, but I believe there's enough evidence to suggest they did the latter when it comes to the Vettel / Webber & the Verstappen / Ricciardo partnerships.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Sorry to barge in guys, but what team orders were issued in Hungary 2010?


Under the safety car Vettel was told to back the guy in the second place up to allow Webber in 3rd to pass in some way (I can't remember the exact mechanics of it.)

This resulted in Vettel getting a drive through penalty.


Hm, ok, thanks. It's just that memory is rusty and when I googled that race for orders I couldn't find anything that was issued to Vettel. In any case, that would still fall into Vettel's lap, he had to adhere to the 10 sec (harsh) rule.

But RB did have a horrible pit stop for Vettel that dropped him behind Alonso. So there's that


I don't think Vettel dropped behind Alonso at Hungary 2010 because of a bad pit stop.

He pitted first and was ahead of Alonso but behind Webber. He slowed down when SC was coming in to try and allow Webber to get away so he could try and jump Alonso when he pitted. Vettel got a penalty for this which then dropped him behind Alonso


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:40 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Sorry to barge in guys, but what team orders were issued in Hungary 2010?


Under the safety car Vettel was told to back the guy in the second place up to allow Webber in 3rd to pass in some way (I can't remember the exact mechanics of it.)

This resulted in Vettel getting a drive through penalty.


Hm, ok, thanks. It's just that memory is rusty and when I googled that race for orders I couldn't find anything that was issued to Vettel. In any case, that would still fall into Vettel's lap, he had to adhere to the 10 sec (harsh) rule.

But RB did have a horrible pit stop for Vettel that dropped him behind Alonso. So there's that


I don't think Vettel dropped behind Alonso at Hungary 2010 because of a bad pit stop.

He pitted first and was ahead of Alonso but behind Webber. He slowed down when SC was coming in to try and allow Webber to get away so he could try and jump Alonso when he pitted. Vettel got a penalty for this which then dropped him behind Alonso


Oh god you are right, that was the other one that was mentioned earlier, the Silverstone 2011. My bad, thanks for pointing it out


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:26 am 
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Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?


When Red Bull say they are building the team around Max, I’m pretty sure they just aren’t painting his trailer orange.
🤷‍♂️

On something in the above comments. Marko is advisor to Dietrich Mateschitz and has almost total power in the team. He does not look after day to day, but can and does override Horner.

On possible favouritism between Max and Dan. (Which I don’t necessarily believe between these 2 but did Webber/VEttel)
Marco publicly stated just this week that 2020 is the last year that Max can become the youngest champion ever in F1.

Ok, so if he didn’t care about records, why is that even a topic for discussion?
No one else in the media is talking about that...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:32 am 
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Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?


When Red Bull say they are building the team around Max, I’m pretty sure they just aren’t painting his trailer orange.
🤷‍♂️

On something in the above comments. Marko is advisor to Dietrich Mateschitz and has almost total power in the team. He does not look after day to day, but can and does override Horner.

On possible favouritism between Max and Dan. (Which I don’t necessarily believe between these 2 but did Webber/VEttel)
Marco publicly stated just this week that 2020 is the last year that Max can become the youngest champion ever in F1.

Ok, so if he didn’t care about records, why is that even a topic for discussion?
No one else in the media is talking about that...

Ok so it isn't clear, but rather supposition.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:33 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:49 am 
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Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


Ok, he's no Senna, no one is, but Maldonado? Come on, give him some credit!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:09 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.

But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?


When Red Bull say they are building the team around Max, I’m pretty sure they just aren’t painting his trailer orange.
🤷‍♂️

On something in the above comments. Marko is advisor to Dietrich Mateschitz and has almost total power in the team. He does not look after day to day, but can and does override Horner.

On possible favouritism between Max and Dan. (Which I don’t necessarily believe between these 2 but did Webber/VEttel)
Marco publicly stated just this week that 2020 is the last year that Max can become the youngest champion ever in F1.

Ok, so if he didn’t care about records, why is that even a topic for discussion?
No one else in the media is talking about that...

Ok so it isn't clear, but rather supposition.


How can a public statement by a team that they are building a team around a driver not imply that also the car that he will race will also be built around him.
It is not supposition.
Ok, by that logic, I was wrong, they built the car for Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:

I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.


But I don't see the logic here... For that theoru to work Verstappen would need to be making mistakes and crashing on his own because he's driving too fast.

He isn't.

He's making risky moves which don't always pay off.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:17 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
Randine wrote:
When Dan had an opportunity he grabbed it.
3 poles vs 0, Dan V’s Max says it all.

I remember so many races where Dan turned down his engine to save it for next races.
Unfortunately the unreliability robbed us all of a true fight between these guys.

I think Max cracks under pressure and unless he gets a car with a huge advantage will never win a championship.


I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


Ok, he's no Senna, no one is, but Maldonado? Come on, give him some credit!


Maldonado was a very quick driver. Unfortunately for him he didn’t have a good sense of when he was on the edge, and frequently went over it.
I see a huge similarity to Max.

Leclerc in his 2nd season drives more mature that Max in his 5th year.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:27 pm 
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Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.

But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?


When Red Bull say they are building the team around Max, I’m pretty sure they just aren’t painting his trailer orange.
🤷‍♂️

On something in the above comments. Marko is advisor to Dietrich Mateschitz and has almost total power in the team. He does not look after day to day, but can and does override Horner.

On possible favouritism between Max and Dan. (Which I don’t necessarily believe between these 2 but did Webber/VEttel)
Marco publicly stated just this week that 2020 is the last year that Max can become the youngest champion ever in F1.

Ok, so if he didn’t care about records, why is that even a topic for discussion?
No one else in the media is talking about that...

Ok so it isn't clear, but rather supposition.


How can a public statement by a team that they are building a team around a driver not imply that also the car that he will race will also be built around him.
It is not supposition.
Ok, by that logic, I was wrong, they built the car for Hamilton.

There was no such public statement. Horner was asked about Verstappen's plans for the future and replied:
Quote:
“I think he can see the strength and depth of the team,” Horner told Motorsport.com. “He feels comfortable in the team. He’s the youngest grand prix winner, he’s the youngest double winner, he’s the youngest points scorer.

"And Lewis is pretty set at Mercedes, Seb has signed for three years at Ferrari. The obvious thing is to build a team around you. But it’s down to us to provide him with a competitive car.”

From this you can say with a 100% certainty that when they were teammates with Ricciardo the car was built around Max?

You are clutching at straws quite frankly.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.

This kind of reminds me of the argument between Hamilton and Button, it was explained away that Hamilton's faster speed in relation to Button came at the expense of reliability issues, he basically was smashing the car over the kerbs in comparison to Button's smooth and car friendly driving style.

In recent years we've seen Hamilton break the record for longest run of scoring points whilst still being consistently quicker than his teammates, I feel this similar argument against Verstappen will be proven to carry the same weight.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:

I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?
Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.


But I don't see the logic here... For that theoru to work Verstappen would need to be making mistakes and crashing on his own because he's driving too fast.

He isn't.

He's making risky moves which don't always pay off.


He is under no pressure now. Except to try and win any race at all costs without consequence.

So under a title pressure he has to choose keep going for the risky moves, or play it safe and collect as many points as possible.
He would crack under pressure.

And as the title of this tread says, he certainly does need to watch his back as I can’t see him winning a title any time soon.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:34 pm 
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Randine wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?

Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


Ok, he's no Senna, no one is, but Maldonado? Come on, give him some credit!


Maldonado was a very quick driver. Unfortunately for him he didn’t have a good sense of when he was on the edge, and frequently went over it.
I see a huge similarity to Max.

Leclerc in his 2nd season drives more mature that Max in his 5th year.

Maldonado was slower than his teammates that's why ultimately he got dropped from F1 once his sponsorship ran out.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I can't imagine this will age well. Also, is it just me or are the Aussies quite harsh on Max?
Bingo, I don't think I've ever seen a non-aussie mirror these opinions. Seems like most of them have a bee in the bonnet about anyone who's been a teammate of Dan's.


Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.

This kind of reminds me of the argument between Hamilton and Button, it was explained away that Hamilton's faster speed in relation to Button came at the expense of reliability issues, he basically was smashing the car over the kerbs in comparison to Button's smooth and car friendly driving style.

In recent years we've seen Hamilton break the record for longest run of scoring points whilst still being consistently quicker than his teammates, I feel this similar argument against Verstappen will be proven to carry the same weight.


Fair point but Hamilton was battle ready because he was involved in one of the closest ever title fights in his rookie year and then backed that up with a title win.
He showed that he can handle the sustained pressure.

Max has showed he continues to make risky moves still in his 5th year in the sport. And he has had zero title pressure.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.


But I don't see the logic here... For that theoru to work Verstappen would need to be making mistakes and crashing on his own because he's driving too fast.

He isn't.

He's making risky moves which don't always pay off.


He is under no pressure now. Except to try and win any race at all costs without consequence.

So under a title pressure he has to choose keep going for the risky moves, or play it safe and collect as many points as possible.
He would crack under pressure.

And as the title of this tread says, he certainly does need to watch his back as I can’t see him winning a title any time soon.


He might continue to make errors, his attitude might change and he could become more risk adverse.

I don't see why he would become slower?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Randine wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:
Probably because most people don’t notice all of the intricacies of drivers they don’t have an invested interest in.

I’ll admit that I believe Max has a pace advantage over Dan.
However I believe that Dan is more a complete racer and if given the equipment could beat Max head to head in a championship fight.

Why do I think this? Because Max at times still makes mistakes like trying to win a race in the first corner. He is closer to Grosjean or Maldonado than Senna (which some have compared him to.)


The question is would Verstappen continue to do this if he was in a championship fight?

The position he's in at the moment means taking risks to try and create a small chance of winning is the best course of action.


That is exactly my point.
If he didn’t drive on the very edge, would he be as quick as he is?
I don’t believe so, which is also why I believe that he would not beat Dan, Lewis or Alonso under the pressure cooker of a head to heat title battle.
And he would possibly lose against Leclerc too.

This kind of reminds me of the argument between Hamilton and Button, it was explained away that Hamilton's faster speed in relation to Button came at the expense of reliability issues, he basically was smashing the car over the kerbs in comparison to Button's smooth and car friendly driving style.

In recent years we've seen Hamilton break the record for longest run of scoring points whilst still being consistently quicker than his teammates, I feel this similar argument against Verstappen will be proven to carry the same weight.


Fair point but Hamilton was battle ready because he was involved in one of the closest ever title fights in his rookie year and then backed that up with a title win.
He showed that he can handle the sustained pressure.

Max has showed he continues to make risky moves still in his 5th year in the sport. And he has had zero title pressure.

I take on board what you are saying and I've criticised him in the past for the same things, however you're relating his extra speed over Ricciardo to the extra risks he is taking which I don't believe to be true, he's just plain quicker.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:41 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Personally I think Ricciardo ran away from Verstappen and this beating Max 2 out of 3 seasons is a bit bogus, the first season Max joined mid season, the second season Max was clearly quicker but lost a lot of points with mechanical problems, I know Ricciardo did too in the second half of the season but nominally Max would run in front of Ricciardo when he retired, Ricciardo would run behind Max when he retired.

The third season after Max stopped crashing early in the season started to become a walkover for Max, I know again that Ricciardo again had a lot of mechanical issues later in the season but these mechanical issues for both drivers in 2017 and 2018 I think are a nice camouflage for Ricciardo.


But now that we have seen Albon and Gasly perform next to Max and he is making them look like formula 3 drivers can't we understand Ricciardo's decision to leave a little better?

The Redbull car is built around Max, that much is clear. If Ricciardo realized that and decided to pack his bags we cannot fault him for that. I am really starting to believe that not even Hamilton could beat Max in the Redbull, but if Max came to Mercedes he wouldn't be able to touch Lewis.

How exactly is that clear?


It is clear. At least to me. I have explained it in the first sentence of my post yet you seem to think it is somehow outlandish. Redbull has also stated it in the past. So again, legitimate F1 drivers like Albon and Gasly have trouble driving the Redbull, Ricciardo is an elite driver and he was not that close to Max. So to me at least, it is obvious that that car is built around Max. Not that hard to understand my view point to be honest.


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