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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
This thread is utter nonsense. Between Belgium last year and Hungary this year, a span of 21 races (so exactly a full season), Max had 21 straight finishes of 5th or better, including 3 wins and 4 second places. In the 3rd best car. Aside from Hamilton, nobody on the grid is as fast and as consistent, and Max is only 22 years old, which is the age Hamilton was when he started in F1. Max is taking more risks of late, but that's no surprise as he is mostly shooting for race wins and not interested in finishing 2nd-5th.


But that is exactly the point, if he is happy with top 5 finishes he is doing brilliant, If he wants to be in the top team rather than 3rd best he needs to have a unique selling point. Love or hate Hamilton he is a massive promotional tool for Mercedes, In Vettel and Leclerc they can represent the brand off track. Vettel is great at that.
Sulky, moody behavior with side swipes at his peers isn't appealing in the slightest. If he wants a top drive he has to swap teams or wait for RB to come good. If RB found a quick youngster, how long do you think MV would last, they "spit drivers out". That's why Verstappen needs to watch his back!


Come off it, Verstappen is massively popular. Most of the rounds we have in Europe the crowds are half orange and we are going to have a Dutch GP next season almost entirely off of Verstappen's back.

So whatever he is doing it is clearly proving to be very appealing to a lot of fans.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:07 pm 
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That not what I'm saying, its not public popularity that matters, it being an attractive commercial proposition and a worldwide one at that. Europe is not the be all and end all it, the owners are American, they want a product that works there not just in Holland.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:50 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
I think most people are basing their views on the totality and trajectory of the current season. So the 2019 season, rather than your unique 'exactly a full season'.


They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

shoot999 wrote:
I think in that season Hamilton achieved 14 wins to your boys 3; and not all in a dominant car.


That's why I mentioned Hamilton as the only one driving at a comparable level in terms of speed and consistency. It's safe to say that if they were driving the same car, it would not be 14:3 in wins, but much closer to an even split. Hamilton is near the end of his career though, perhaps two more seasons before he starts to decline visibly. It's not someone that Max needs to 'watch his back' for.

shoot999 wrote:
Today you have Ham at the top of his game, Vettel regaining a bit of form, and the emergence of Leclerc.


Vettel has neither the speed nor consistency and Leclerc, so far, has not shown consistency.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:59 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
But that is exactly the point, if he is happy with top 5 finishes he is doing brilliant


I just said that he isn't happy to finish anything lower than 1st. The one chink in his armor used to be a lack of consistency. Many people said that he is fast enough, but too wild and erratic to win a WDC. He has now proven that that's not the case.

Option or Prime wrote:
Love or hate Hamilton he is a massive promotional tool for Mercedes, In Vettel and Leclerc they can represent the brand off track. Vettel is great at that.
Sulky, moody behavior with side swipes at his peers isn't appealing in the slightest. If he wants a top drive he has to swap teams or wait for RB to come good. If RB found a quick youngster, how long do you think MV would last, they "spit drivers out". That's why Verstappen needs to watch his back!


Ummm, outspoken drivers tend to be very marketable and Verstappen is definitely not short of popularity. If anything, most fans complain that today's drivers are too robotic and show no emotion. The only problem would be if Max was toxic towards his own team, Alonso style, but I haven't really seen that.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:25 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I think most people are basing their views on the totality and trajectory of the current season. So the 2019 season, rather than your unique 'exactly a full season'.


They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

shoot999 wrote:
I think in that season Hamilton achieved 14 wins to your boys 3; and not all in a dominant car.


That's why I mentioned Hamilton as the only one driving at a comparable level in terms of speed and consistency. It's safe to say that if they were driving the same car, it would not be 14:3 in wins, but much closer to an even split. Hamilton is near the end of his career though, perhaps two more seasons before he starts to decline visibly. It's not someone that Max needs to 'watch his back' for.

shoot999 wrote:
Today you have Ham at the top of his game, Vettel regaining a bit of form, and the emergence of Leclerc.


Vettel has neither the speed nor consistency and Leclerc, so far, has not shown consistency.


So your argument is Max's 18/19 season that runs Spa to Hungary is a consistent run, second only to Ham?

So lets have a look at Max's current 19/20 season which started at Spa. Retired, 8, 3, 4, retired, 6. Not a great start to this new 'season; and where is the consistency?

You made a number of assumptions and then cherry picked a good Max run to 'prove' those assumptions. No different to taking the last half a dozen races to 'prove' Alex is more consistent and a better points scorer than Max is. Or that when Leclerc gets to his 5th season, he will almost certainly 'prove' be more consistent than Max is lately.

If nothing else you should be slightly concerned that Max's consistent run has hit a rocky patch.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Realistically Max in a Red Bull won't challenge for a WDC next year, then its a gamble to see if Red Bull are competitive in the New Regs. He won't go to Mercedes when Hamilton is there. Hamilton is saying he wants to keep going.
So is he gambling on Ferrari? Its all a long way off.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:23 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

I just want to say the only thing that really counts are consistent performances in calendar seasons.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

I just want to say the only thing that really counts are consistent performances in calendar seasons.


Why? There were no major regulation changes, Verstappen did not switch teams, everything was as close as it could be. Did something happen over the winter break that changed the landscape in some meaningful way?

The main difference is just in people's minds, not in racetrack reality. It's like the year 2000 was supposed to be the end of the world because it's a nice round date.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:15 pm 
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Verstappen doesn't need to watch his back at all.

Also getting SV and LH to say they give him more space when racing him is kudos to Verstappen, he is getting in the other drivers heads and they are giving him more space than they should during wheel-to-wheel battles, and this will be an edge to MV when they are racing.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:28 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Verstappen doesn't need to watch his back at all.

Also getting SV and LH to say they give him more space when racing him is kudos to Verstappen, he is getting in the other drivers heads and they are giving him more space than they should during wheel-to-wheel battles, and this will be an edge to MV when they are racing.


They give him more space because they fight.for championships whereas Verstappen has no long game to think about. All it shows is that verstappen has never fought for a WDC and when he is challenging there is 0% chance they will give him this space


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:29 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

I just want to say the only thing that really counts are consistent performances in calendar seasons.


Why? There were no major regulation changes, Verstappen did not switch teams, everything was as close as it could be. Did something happen over the winter break that changed the landscape in some meaningful way?

The main difference is just in people's minds, not in racetrack reality. It's like the year 2000 was supposed to be the end of the world because it's a nice round date.

Because you'd probably not win much being just good for half a season or even two thirds of season, imagine a football team that ends a season scoring more points than anyone else in the second half of the season, then starts the following season scoring more points than every other team in the first half of the season, but the end result is no titles, being the best team for a 12 month period spanning 2 seasons doesn't really cut it.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

I just want to say the only thing that really counts are consistent performances in calendar seasons.


Why? There were no major regulation changes, Verstappen did not switch teams, everything was as close as it could be. Did something happen over the winter break that changed the landscape in some meaningful way?

The main difference is just in people's minds, not in racetrack reality. It's like the year 2000 was supposed to be the end of the world because it's a nice round date.

Because you'd probably not win much being just good for half a season or even two thirds of season, imagine a football team that ends a season scoring more points than anyone else in the second half of the season, then starts the following season scoring more points than every other team in the first half of the season, but the end result is no titles, being the best team for a 12 month period spanning 2 seasons doesn't really cut it.


He's still been comfortably better than anyone else this season apart from Hamilton. He's not been bad.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
They were consecutive races, and very recent, so I don't see how that is so "unique". If I only picked them in a Fibonacci sequence or something, then that would be different.

I just want to say the only thing that really counts are consistent performances in calendar seasons.


Why? There were no major regulation changes, Verstappen did not switch teams, everything was as close as it could be. Did something happen over the winter break that changed the landscape in some meaningful way?

The main difference is just in people's minds, not in racetrack reality. It's like the year 2000 was supposed to be the end of the world because it's a nice round date.

Because you'd probably not win much being just good for half a season or even two thirds of season, imagine a football team that ends a season scoring more points than anyone else in the second half of the season, then starts the following season scoring more points than every other team in the first half of the season, but the end result is no titles, being the best team for a 12 month period spanning 2 seasons doesn't really cut it.


He's still been comfortably better than anyone else this season apart from Hamilton. He's not been bad.


He wasn't exactly bad last race, more unlucky really. But with Verstappen, it is often most of the time great them sometimes terrible. He certainly is sometimes bad. But balanced out, i suppose you can't say that.

But Italy and Spa were very poor indeed from him.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:01 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Verstappen doesn't need to watch his back at all.

Also getting SV and LH to say they give him more space when racing him is kudos to Verstappen, he is getting in the other drivers heads and they are giving him more space than they should during wheel-to-wheel battles, and this will be an edge to MV when they are racing.


They give him more space because they fight.for championships whereas Verstappen has no long game to think about. All it shows is that verstappen has never fought for a WDC and when he is challenging there is 0% chance they will give him this space


Then wouldn't they give all other drivers more space that weren't in the championship fight, and not just Max? And therefore they aren't really saying anything particularly revealing and instead are just saying something boring and generic?

No, these comments were aimed just at Max, and so they give Max and his driving style more space, (and therefore more respect), and as a result this actually gives Max more of an edge on them in the close racing moments. So the laugh is on them and not Max, he is getting in their heads with his racing and off-track attitude and kudos to him for this.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:30 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Verstappen doesn't need to watch his back at all.

Also getting SV and LH to say they give him more space when racing him is kudos to Verstappen, he is getting in the other drivers heads and they are giving him more space than they should during wheel-to-wheel battles, and this will be an edge to MV when they are racing.


They give him more space because they fight.for championships whereas Verstappen has no long game to think about. All it shows is that verstappen has never fought for a WDC and when he is challenging there is 0% chance they will give him this space


Then wouldn't they give all other drivers more space that weren't in the championship fight, and not just Max? And therefore they aren't really saying anything particularly revealing and instead are just saying something boring and generic?

No, these comments were aimed just at Max, and so they give Max and his driving style more space, (and therefore more respect), and as a result this actually gives Max more of an edge on them in the close racing moments. So the laugh is on them and not Max, he is getting in their heads with his racing and off-track attitude and kudos to him for this.


When asked whether Ham treats Max differently he responded I treat all drivers differently, some good, bad, dangerous, stupid, trustworthy, etc. So you decide that all the negatives Ham mentioned were aimed at Max? Sounds like Lewis has got into your head.

But just to get this right. When a reporter asks Ham about Max and Ham replies its 'Max getting into Hams head'.
But when a reporter asks Max about Ham and Max replies its not 'Ham getting into Max's head'?

And if you looked at these last few seasons you will see Ham on the opening laps; whether he is up near the front or had a bad qualifying, giving all over drivers space. Its what he does.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:35 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Verstappen doesn't need to watch his back at all.

Also getting SV and LH to say they give him more space when racing him is kudos to Verstappen, he is getting in the other drivers heads and they are giving him more space than they should during wheel-to-wheel battles, and this will be an edge to MV when they are racing.


They give him more space because they fight.for championships whereas Verstappen has no long game to think about. All it shows is that verstappen has never fought for a WDC and when he is challenging there is 0% chance they will give him this space


Then wouldn't they give all other drivers more space that weren't in the championship fight, and not just Max? And therefore they aren't really saying anything particularly revealing and instead are just saying something boring and generic?

No, these comments were aimed just at Max, and so they give Max and his driving style more space, (and therefore more respect), and as a result this actually gives Max more of an edge on them in the close racing moments. So the laugh is on them and not Max, he is getting in their heads with his racing and off-track attitude and kudos to him for this.


When asked whether Ham treats Max differently he responded I treat all drivers differently, some good, bad, dangerous, stupid, trustworthy, etc. So you decide that all the negatives Ham mentioned were aimed at Max? Sounds like Lewis has got into your head.

But just to get this right. When a reporter asks Ham about Max and Ham replies its 'Max getting into Hams head'.
But when a reporter asks Max about Ham and Max replies its not 'Ham getting into Max's head'?

And if you looked at these last few seasons you will see Ham on the opening laps; whether he is up near the front or had a bad qualifying, giving all over drivers space. Its what he does.


If that is the case then I got the wrong impression from what people were posting a week ago in relation to these comments in the post-race interview, (I only read on here that LH and SV were making some comments in relation to Max and I didn't actually see the interview myself). So I was misinformed without realising it, by taking the posters on here at face value. I assumed that they would only have posted about these comments if indeed the comments were aimed specifically at Max and not other drivers as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:18 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Verstappen doesn't need to watch his back at all.

Also getting SV and LH to say they give him more space when racing him is kudos to Verstappen, he is getting in the other drivers heads and they are giving him more space than they should during wheel-to-wheel battles, and this will be an edge to MV when they are racing.


They give him more space because they fight.for championships whereas Verstappen has no long game to think about. All it shows is that verstappen has never fought for a WDC and when he is challenging there is 0% chance they will give him this space


Then wouldn't they give all other drivers more space that weren't in the championship fight, and not just Max? And therefore they aren't really saying anything particularly revealing and instead are just saying something boring and generic?

No, these comments were aimed just at Max, and so they give Max and his driving style more space, (and therefore more respect), and as a result this actually gives Max more of an edge on them in the close racing moments. So the laugh is on them and not Max, he is getting in their heads with his racing and off-track attitude and kudos to him for this.


When asked whether Ham treats Max differently he responded I treat all drivers differently, some good, bad, dangerous, stupid, trustworthy, etc. So you decide that all the negatives Ham mentioned were aimed at Max? Sounds like Lewis has got into your head.

But just to get this right. When a reporter asks Ham about Max and Ham replies its 'Max getting into Hams head'.
But when a reporter asks Max about Ham and Max replies its not 'Ham getting into Max's head'?

And if you looked at these last few seasons you will see Ham on the opening laps; whether he is up near the front or had a bad qualifying, giving all over drivers space. Its what he does.


If that is the case then I got the wrong impression from what people were posting a week ago in relation to these comments in the post-race interview, (I only read on here that LH and SV were making some comments in relation to Max and I didn't actually see the interview myself). So I was misinformed without realising it, by taking the posters on here at face value. I assumed that they would only have posted about these comments if indeed the comments were aimed specifically at Max and not other drivers as well.


Id have to watch it again, but from what i recall Seb hardly said anything, basically just agreed with Ham, and Ham said later that he was just describing the turn 1/2 incident and wasnt criticising Max about that incident, in fact he enjoyed the fight.
But anyway, Max is now upset Ham overtook him despite Max slowing to cool his tyres. So Max is unhappy again.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:10 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
... and so they give Max and his driving style more space, (and therefore more respect)...
Clearly all F1 drivers respect Max Verstappen's talents and accomplishments, but I would never call their caution racing him respect. The fact you know a particular driver will put the responsibility for not having an accident fully with you, doesn't inspire respect, it makes it more difficult to respect him, not easier.
Max has improved a lot since the middle of last year, but not before time. Next year will be his 6th season in F1.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:05 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
1 race for Hamilton fighting a bit to the back, and suddenly the drama starts. Because he started in front for the last million years of course he will complain about not being enough space, cause it's uncharted teritory for him.

At the same time, Verstappen is Verstappen. I don't think he went further than he has in the past.

I just think that this time he had to deal with the "wrong" driver. And Hamilton is Hamilton, even with 6 titles under his belt, he will still complain and hold resentments, even towards a dog, if he'd step in his poo.

It's just his way of being, doesn't mean he's a bad person. The same with Verstappen, he will not accept that somebody else might be right from time to time.

It's funny, these traits are admired if you win, and are not accepted if you lose. If you win you're just passionate, if you are losing, you're just a sore loser. Even if your behaviour is identical, It's all down to circumstances.


All the drivers complain. Who are the nicest ones on the grid for me? Norris and Ric - both have sworn and gone absolute mad at mistakes or problems, Ric has certainly had his fair share of grumbles with the stewards.

I never did understand this "that driver moaning" rubbish. Vettel has gone insane and named Charlie Whiting by name at penalties he's got. Lewis has gone insane, Max too. Every driver thinks they are right regardless and innocent. Remember that time vettel turned IN TO Lewis when he thought he got break tested? Yet telemetry proved Lewis had not and the previous SC showed that Lewis did the same thing by slowing down in preparation for a restart. Vettel got angry and turned in to him, after the race he refused to answer why and what he did instead it was "but but Lewis Lewis Lewis".

Is this the same Lewis Hamilton that defended Vettel when he was being heavily questioned if his mentality was in the sport anymore? Lewis himself stood up to protect Vettel when it came to the press and not for the first time. And your last line is very similar to what Lewis had said. When things go your way, no one bats an eye lid. When you have an off period, everyone questions you. Lewis Hamilton has had the same thing.

They all have one thing in common. They want to win. They don't want to lose. Max, Lewis, Seb are all the same on that front. Shall we talk about what Max keeps saying? His moans?


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