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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:24 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Max won his first race with Red Bull and was in the mix from the beginning and he had about 25 grand prix under his belt at this point. Albon has had 18 grand prix and yet to put himself in the mix at all, (something that Christian Horner alluded to that he wanted from his second driver after watching a dismal display from Gasly in Hungary). The evidence so far suggests Albon is not able to do this.

I'm not expecting a Daniel Ricciardo level of performance but I would like to see a level that is perhaps only one tier down from DR. Instead Albon is looking two or three tiers down from DR right now.


Beating Verstappen tho


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:27 am 
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In terms of WDC points it is Albon 58 points Verstappen 39 points. Its not just about being quick. I can't see how Albon can be much further up with the top 5 given that Max is trying so hard that he is wrecking his own races. Max's volatile temperament on and off the track is costing him. Mexico was where he had a chance to succeed in the Red Bull, next race, well its not so obvious is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:45 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

For a guy in his debut year having changed teams mid season it was an OK effort.


The excuses are starting to run out for him. He is still not getting closer to the pace, he qualified well off Max too. He has had almost 20 grand prix now, that is a good chunk of experience.

Saying 'almost 20 Grands Prix' when it's actually 18 implies you're desperate to bring him down at any opportunity. Can't you just admit he's doing a solid job?


18 is almost 20 right?

18 is 18. Why not say almost 30 if that's the angle you're taking?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:07 am 
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jono794 wrote:
I think F1 Racer must be Pierre Gasly's Mum.
Or else Albon has unexplained history with a close relative...

Seriously man, Albon has exceeded everyone's expectations, which is exactly the opposite to Gasly. With 15 laps to go it was clear that he wasn't going to catch those ahead of him, so he backed off, saved all the major systems and cruised to his best F1 result. Would that one or two drivers with more speed could of done that in their first (or fourth or tenth) season.

He's certainly shown more ability in his first year than world champions like Lauda & Hill (D). Give the guy a break...


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:08 pm 
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I thought it was odd how Hamilton overcut Albon, I couldn’t get my head around that and he was suddenly miles behind Leclerc. Something happened to Albon on his out lap, he lost 4-5 seconds. Was it a long pit stop? Anybody know what happened?

Albion’s out lap is a 43.7 in comparison to Hamilton who did a 38.9? Leclerc a 39.4.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Leclerc


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:12 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I thought it was odd how Hamilton overcut Albon, I couldn’t get my head around that and he was suddenly miles behind Leclerc. Something happened to Albon on his out lap, he lost 4-5 seconds. Was it a long pit stop? Anybody know what happened?

Albion’s out lap is a 43.7 in comparison to Hamilton who did a 38.9? Leclerc a 39.4.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Leclerc

Albon found himself caught behind Sainz, who was struggling on softs. He lost a lot of time behind Sainz on his out lap.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:37 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I thought it was odd how Hamilton overcut Albon, I couldn’t get my head around that and he was suddenly miles behind Leclerc. Something happened to Albon on his out lap, he lost 4-5 seconds. Was it a long pit stop? Anybody know what happened?

Albion’s out lap is a 43.7 in comparison to Hamilton who did a 38.9? Leclerc a 39.4.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Leclerc

Albon found himself caught behind Sainz, who was struggling on softs. He lost a lot of time behind Sainz on his out lap.


Sainz pitted at the end of that lap though, so he didn't lose too much time and Hamilton didn't come in for quite a few more laps so the undercut was easily on if Albon had any pace, as Leclerc himself came out way ahead of Lewis after LH pitted.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:09 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I thought it was odd how Hamilton overcut Albon, I couldn’t get my head around that and he was suddenly miles behind Leclerc. Something happened to Albon on his out lap, he lost 4-5 seconds. Was it a long pit stop? Anybody know what happened?

Albion’s out lap is a 43.7 in comparison to Hamilton who did a 38.9? Leclerc a 39.4.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Leclerc

Albon found himself caught behind Sainz, who was struggling on softs. He lost a lot of time behind Sainz on his out lap.


Sainz pitted at the end of that lap though, so he didn't lose too much time and Hamilton didn't come in for quite a few more laps so the undercut was easily on if Albon had any pace, as Leclerc himself came out way ahead of Lewis after LH pitted.


He lost about 5 seconds.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think it was decent performance 21secs off Hamilton and some 14secs from Charles. I think this was his best performance. But obviously RBR was really good here and probably the best car. IMO Max was the fastest driver this weekend and should have won the race had things gone his way. Since the summer break he is going through a rot. Albon is doing enough to be in RBR next year


Being 21 seconds off the lead when your car is better, that is bad.

He allowed Hamilton in a slower car to comfortably overcut him, that was seriously poor play there.

Albon will likely keep the RBR drive for next year due to a lack of options for Red Bull, and not because he is getting the drive on merit due to his speed and talent.


For a guy in his debut year having changed teams mid season it was an OK effort.

Also he's putting in consistent results that Gasly could only dream about and would have kept his seat to the end of the season.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:19 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
kleefton wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I find it amazing how vociferously F1 Racer is pushing this "Albon's not good enough" narrative when Alex has performed better than Max since joining the team. Alex has more headroom for improvement than Max (this being his rookie year) and he has managed to do a better job these last few races of bringing home the points. No, he hasn't matched Max for pace but there aren't many who could hope to do that anyway. It's getting ridiculous.

Have to fully agree with this. There is a good reason why they don’t normally put a rookie in a top team. Not only is he still raw he is forced to try and compete with the best in the sport as he is trying to find his feet. You would actually forgive Albon for making some foolish mistakes as he tries to make up for the pace deficit he will inevitably have against the other 5 at this stage in his career and having to get to grips with a new team. Max may have the pace but he is the one racking up the errors while albon keeps his head. Perhaps he won't reach the level of those he finds himself having to compete with but he's doing a solid job given the circumstances.


:thumbup:

To me he is the ideal number 2 to max, definitely slower, but ultimately does not embarrass himself and consistently able to put the car where it belongs. In addition he happens to be an above average overtaker. Raw pace is suspect so far but he has already matched Max once in qualifying, so maybe he will only get closer. Actually the closer he gets to Max, the worst that dynamic will be for Redbull imo.


If he's putting the car where it belongs then how is his race pace suspect? Your post is a complete contradiction.

The reality is that he is not putting the car where it belongs, as Red Bull were fastest in Mexico, (as they were last season), so should have been having a 1-2 finish if their car was being put where it belongs. After Max's issues that came about mostly of his own making, the path should have been clear for Albon to win his first grand prix but he floundered again this weekend. At the very least he should have been in the mix with the top four cars but he fell away big time in the end and was not in contention at all.


How did he fall away big time?

He lost 4-5 seconds because Red Bull pitted him a lap too early, he was 3.6 seconds behind Leclerc but then 2 laps later 8.3 seconds behind him (even though he stopped before Leclerc) due to Sainz holding him up. By the last lap he was 10 seconds behind Leclerc and running a similar pace to him through the 2nd half of the race.

So from laps 17-70 he lost about 2.5 seconds to Leclerc, the only other driver on his inferior 2 stop strategy.

As for him being barely quicker than Verstappen on old tyres. Laps 45-70 Albon pulled away by 22 seconds from Verstappen. I wouldn’t call that barely quicker. Yes he had a massive tyre advantage but he built a big gap too.


Last edited by Johnson on Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:21 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think it was decent performance 21secs off Hamilton and some 14secs from Charles. I think this was his best performance. But obviously RBR was really good here and probably the best car. IMO Max was the fastest driver this weekend and should have won the race had things gone his way. Since the summer break he is going through a rot. Albon is doing enough to be in RBR next year


Being 21 seconds off the lead when your car is better, that is bad.

He allowed Hamilton in a slower car to comfortably overcut him, that was seriously poor play there.

Albon will likely keep the RBR drive for next year due to a lack of options for Red Bull, and not because he is getting the drive on merit due to his speed and talent.


For a guy in his debut year having changed teams mid season it was an OK effort.


The excuses are starting to run out for him. He is still not getting closer to the pace, he qualified well off Max too. He has had almost 20 grand prix now, that is a good chunk of experience.

You need to give a driver 2 years in F1 to start to see how good that driver is, Verstappen in his first year was barely any quicker than Sainz although given that Verstappen was also vastly inexperienced in single seater cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:22 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think it was decent performance 21secs off Hamilton and some 14secs from Charles. I think this was his best performance. But obviously RBR was really good here and probably the best car. IMO Max was the fastest driver this weekend and should have won the race had things gone his way. Since the summer break he is going through a rot. Albon is doing enough to be in RBR next year


Being 21 seconds off the lead when your car is better, that is bad.

He allowed Hamilton in a slower car to comfortably overcut him, that was seriously poor play there.

Albon will likely keep the RBR drive for next year due to a lack of options for Red Bull, and not because he is getting the drive on merit due to his speed and talent.


In Suzuka he was 1min behind Bottas and here he was 18secs only. Performance wise I think all the 3 top teams were on par. May be RBR were little better but I do not think anyone is expecting him to compete with the top guys already.


When do people expect him to start competing? Halfway through next season? He has had 7 races compared to Gasly's 11 races and by the time Gasly was dropped people were saying he had been given long enough.

He's clearly doing better than Gasly.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think it was decent performance 21secs off Hamilton and some 14secs from Charles. I think this was his best performance. But obviously RBR was really good here and probably the best car. IMO Max was the fastest driver this weekend and should have won the race had things gone his way. Since the summer break he is going through a rot. Albon is doing enough to be in RBR next year


Being 21 seconds off the lead when your car is better, that is bad.

He allowed Hamilton in a slower car to comfortably overcut him, that was seriously poor play there.

Albon will likely keep the RBR drive for next year due to a lack of options for Red Bull, and not because he is getting the drive on merit due to his speed and talent.


For a guy in his debut year having changed teams mid season it was an OK effort.

Also he's putting in consistent results that Gasly could only dream about and would have kept his seat to the end of the season.


Yes Galsy was lapped in 2 of his last 4 races. Albon hasn't been anything like that slow.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:24 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

For a guy in his debut year having changed teams mid season it was an OK effort.


He does have a very steep benchmark and learning curve. It just remains to be seen how much he can grow, but what encourages me is his willingness to mix it up and show quite accomplished racecraft wheel-to-wheel for one so inexperienced.



Yes, Max passed VB today.
What wheel-to-wheel race craft? We have only seen him overtake midfield cars so far, where he has a substantial pace advantage over them of course,. He hasn't overtaken one of the top 5 on track with equal tyre life yet has he?


Outside of lap 1 have any of the top 6 passed one another with equal tire life since Albon has been at Red Bull?


Yes, Max passed VB today.

...and punctures his rear tyre on Bottas' front wing.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:26 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
In Suzuka he was 1min behind Bottas and here he was 18secs only. Performance wise I think all the 3 top teams were on par. May be RBR were little better but I do not think anyone is expecting him to compete with the top guys already.


Albon has had how many races for Red Bull, 5 is it? Max has been at Red Bull since 2016.


And Albon has outscored Verstappen during their time together with a measured approach to his driving


See Danny Ric. vs Danny Kyv. from 2015.

A good comparison, Ricciardo also got himself involved in too many incidents.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:30 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Max won his first race with Red Bull and was in the mix from the beginning and he had about 25 grand prix under his belt at this point. Albon has had 18 grand prix and yet to put himself in the mix at all, (something that Christian Horner alluded to that he wanted from his second driver after watching a dismal display from Gasly in Hungary). The evidence so far suggests Albon is not able to do this.

I'm not expecting a Daniel Ricciardo level of performance but I would like to see a level that is perhaps only one tier down from DR. Instead Albon is looking two or three tiers down from DR right now.

Verstappen won because the 2 Mercedes drivers crashed themselves out and both Vettel and Ricciardo were given inferior strategies.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Battle Far wrote:
jono794 wrote:
I think F1 Racer must be Pierre Gasly's Mum.
Or else Albon has unexplained history with a close relative...

Seriously man, Albon has exceeded everyone's expectations, which is exactly the opposite to Gasly. With 15 laps to go it was clear that he wasn't going to catch those ahead of him, so he backed off, saved all the major systems and cruised to his best F1 result. Would that one or two drivers with more speed could of done that in their first (or fourth or tenth) season.

He's certainly shown more ability in his first year than world champions like Lauda & Hill (D). Give the guy a break...

His best result is actually 4th, he's had 6 races now and finished 5th, 6th, 6th, 5th, 4th and 5th, that's quite solid results in a period were the Red Bull car has been looking like 3rd best car and Verstappen's results in contrast have been all over the place.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:44 am 
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Oh Alex. Looking slow again. Even Bottas can outqualify a top teammate some of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:00 am 
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I got excited for a moment when he was faster than Max in Q2 and then realised he was on the soft tyres, with Max on the medium tyres.

Still, Alex did OK today in qualifying.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:10 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Oh Alex. Looking slow again. Even Bottas can outqualify a top teammate some of the time.

Apparently he was 3 tenths up on his best lap but then made a mistake, ifs, buts and maybes I suppose?

He's still doing a better job than Gasly did though who is presently beating Kvyat, strange world. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Oh Alex. Looking slow again. Even Bottas can outqualify a top teammate some of the time.

Apparently he was 3 tenths up on his best lap but then made a mistake, ifs, buts and maybes I suppose?

He's still doing a better job than Gasly did though who is presently beating Kvyat, strange world. :?


Yeah, a lot of people like to praise Alex because he is doing a bit better than a very poor driver that was in the car before him.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:50 am 
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For me this matchup does not make any sense. Verstappen makes a pretty big mistake at turn one and is still nearly half a second clear of his teammate. I'm struggling to believe that Albon is driving the same exact car. Like hamilton said, i "hope Redbull is good" to Albon.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:13 am 
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kleefton wrote:
For me this matchup does not make any sense. Verstappen makes a pretty big mistake at turn one and is still nearly half a second clear of his teammate. I'm struggling to believe that Albon is driving the same exact car. Like hamilton said, i "hope Redbull is good" to Albon.


Red Bull have no reason to give Albon a different car though.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 am 
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I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:40 am 
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Invade wrote:
I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:45 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


Well, for sure. I don't think Albon is on Bottas' level (at least yet). We've seen the sort of challenge a very good driver can give Verstappen in Daniel Ricciardo.

Max is a very formidable benchmark and it's clear right now that Albon isn't even close. However, he is merely a rookie and jumped into the role mid-season. The problem for Red Bull is that they might be shaping up for a title challenge next year, but if Albon doesn't improve significantly then he's not going to be able to pull off the required wingman duties RBR will need. Typically, rookies go on to improve substantially in the year following, wouldn't you say?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:09 am 
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Invade wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


Well, for sure. I don't think Albon is on Bottas' level (at least yet). We've seen the sort of challenge a very good driver can give Verstappen in Daniel Ricciardo.

Max is a very formidable benchmark and it's clear right now that Albon isn't even close. However, he is merely a rookie and jumped into the role mid-season. The problem for Red Bull is that they might be shaping up for a title challenge next year, but if Albon doesn't improve significantly then he's not going to be able to pull off the required wingman duties RBR will need. Typically, rookies go on to improve substantially in the year following, wouldn't you say?


Well there are plenty that don't improve the following year, Nelson Piquet Jr., Joleon Palmer, Stoffel Vandoorne and Brandon Hartley for example. I would say that there are far more that don't improve in any significant way than there are drivers that miraculously do get much better and force you to re-evaluate them.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:27 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


Bottas is in his 7th season and 3rd with Mercedes, is that the same as a Rookie that switched team mid season and in his 6th race.

It seems you forget that Albon set the same time in qualifying in Japan, race 4 in his Red Bull career.

Who are they going to replace Albon with? For 350,000 a year he is a bargain, the lowest earning driver on the grid.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:34 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


Well, for sure. I don't think Albon is on Bottas' level (at least yet). We've seen the sort of challenge a very good driver can give Verstappen in Daniel Ricciardo.

Max is a very formidable benchmark and it's clear right now that Albon isn't even close. However, he is merely a rookie and jumped into the role mid-season. The problem for Red Bull is that they might be shaping up for a title challenge next year, but if Albon doesn't improve significantly then he's not going to be able to pull off the required wingman duties RBR will need. Typically, rookies go on to improve substantially in the year following, wouldn't you say?


Well there are plenty that don't improve the following year, Nelson Piquet Jr., Joleon Palmer, Stoffel Vandoorne and Brandon Hartley for example. I would say that there are far more that don't improve in any significant way than there are drivers that miraculously do get much better and force you to re-evaluate them.


Nelson piquet was from the unlimited testing days, drivers didn’t improve much in the 2nd year then they had about 3-4 seasons worth of miles in testing before they even debuted.

Palmer had different team mates so what are you basing that on?

Brendon Hartley did 4 races as a stand in driver. Then a complete season and Gasly was a rookie himself so that makes no sense at all.

Vandoorne is the only recent example I can think of.

Verstappen did not look better than Ricciardo based on 2016, did you not re-evaluate that after 2016?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:42 am 
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Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen 5-0 in there first 5 races together in 2016 with an average gap of 0.6 tenths. So Albons doing better than that at least.


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:42 am 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
I feel like this sort of discussion is going to be a common theme over Max's career. I don't expect him to constantly smash his team-mates by half a second or more but he's probably going to be dominant over his team-mates for the majority of his career, in overwhelming fashion. In the end people are just going to accept that Max is damn fast.


Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


Well, for sure. I don't think Albon is on Bottas' level (at least yet). We've seen the sort of challenge a very good driver can give Verstappen in Daniel Ricciardo.

Max is a very formidable benchmark and it's clear right now that Albon isn't even close. However, he is merely a rookie and jumped into the role mid-season. The problem for Red Bull is that they might be shaping up for a title challenge next year, but if Albon doesn't improve significantly then he's not going to be able to pull off the required wingman duties RBR will need. Typically, rookies go on to improve substantially in the year following, wouldn't you say?


Well there are plenty that don't improve the following year, Nelson Piquet Jr., Joleon Palmer, Stoffel Vandoorne and Brandon Hartley for example. I would say that there are far more that don't improve in any significant way than there are drivers that miraculously do get much better and force you to re-evaluate them.


Nelson piquet was from the unlimited testing days, drivers didn’t improve much in the 2nd year then they had about 3-4 seasons worth of miles in testing before they even debuted.

Palmer had different team mates so what are you basing that on?

Brendon Hartley did 4 races as a stand in driver. Then a complete season and Gasly was a rookie himself so that makes no sense at all.

Vandoorne is the only recent example I can think of.

Verstappen did not look better than Ricciardo based on 2016, did you not re-evaluate that after 2016?


What about Marcus Ericsson and Felipe Nasr? They didn't seem to get any faster.

Wehrlein? Ocon? Stroll? Kyvat? There are tonnes that don't improve in any meaningful way in their second season.

Plus Palmer was slow, even with different teammates, Hartley had two seasons and Piquet had lots of testing to get things right so these examples also all count.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:42 am 
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Almost every driver that has their first two seasons against the same experienced teammate make a clear, noticeable jump forward in their second season.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:44 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen 5-0 in there first 5 races together in 2016 with an average gap of 0.6 tenths. So Albons doing better than that at least.


Yeah, but we are eight races in now and also Max won a race due to being in the mix at the right time during the race which also kind of helps. Albon is never in the mix.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:47 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Almost every driver that has their first two seasons against the same experienced teammate make a clear, noticeable jump forward in their second season.


Making a jump from being very slow in the first season to being slow in the second season does not count, when absolute pace is just as important as relative pace vs their previous low benchmark. I am combining the concepts of relative pace and absolute pace here to make my points. I don't care about any improvements made if after said improvements the driver is still slow in an absolute sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:52 am 
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Just pulling names out of a hat now, more than half of those had a big jump in year 2 performance and you wont know which ones because you are just making it up as you go along.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:53 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Just pulling names out of a hat now, more than half of those had a big jump in year 2 performance and you wont know which ones because you are just making it up as you go along.


Not true, I think I have a good understanding of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:55 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Just pulling names out of a hat now, more than half of those had a big jump in year 2 performance and you wont know which ones because you are just making it up as you go along.


Not true, I think I have a good understanding of this.


I’m sure you think that too. Making lots of statements backed up by thin air


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:56 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen 5-0 in there first 5 races together in 2016 with an average gap of 0.6 tenths. So Albons doing better than that at least.


Yeah, but we are eight races in now and also Max won a race due to being in the mix at the right time during the race which also kind of helps. Albon is never in the mix.


8 races? Max was 7-1 down in qualifying. Did he improve on that in the future? You tell me.

Wasn’t Albon in the mix last race. He was 3 seconds off the lead at the first pit stops before Red Bull screwed his race pitting him into traffic and 2 stopping him.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:57 am 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen 5-0 in there first 5 races together in 2016 with an average gap of 0.6 tenths. So Albons doing better than that at least.


Yeah, but we are eight races in now and also Max won a race due to being in the mix at the right time during the race which also kind of helps. Albon is never in the mix.


8 races? Max was 7-1 down in qualifying. Did he improve on that in the future? You tell me


It was pretty obvious to me at the time that he had strong potential, and it's irrelevant anyway because in 2015 he was demonstrating his talent too, even before this period you talk about.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:00 am 
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Johnson wrote:

Wasn’t Albon in the mix last race. He was 3 seconds off the lead at the first pit stops before Red Bull screwed his race pitting him into traffic and 2 stopping him.


He was not truly in the mix as he was eating up his tyres like crazy in the first stint just to keep up. Once he was forced to make the tyres last in his second and third stints, his true pace, (or lack of it), was revealed.


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