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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.

I would say that drivers normally improve with more experience at a team, Hamilton's worse season at Mercedes was in 2013.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:06 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


He did, after a slow start... Same pattern again. Ericsson out qualified him in the first 2 races and people began to question Leclerc early last year. Then Leclerc thrashed him all season with Ericsson only managing to out qualify him 3 times in total but it did take Leclerc all pre season and 2 race weekends to get up to speed.

Even Hamilton in famous rookie year all thousands of miles of unlimited testing took all pre season and 3-4 races to match Alonso. Alonso thrashed him in the first 2 races.


''All pre season'' is what, two or three tests? This period of time is nothing special as we have so many more races these days. Whereas we are 19 races into Albon's career and he hasn't done anything of note yet. Possibly matching Verstappen over one lap in Q3 in Japan is about it, although since that lap time was still far off the Ferrari's and Mercedes', (0.8 seconds off pole), perhaps it could have just been a poor lap from MV, whereas if Albon had matched Max while also having his lap time close to the other four front running drivers, then I would be a bit more convinced to count this as a highlight.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:15 pm 
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For me the Japan lap was far more than I'd have expected from albon. It's not like red Bull are spoilt for choices at the moment. I'd guess what red Bull have been pleasantly surprised by how solid and consistent albon has been for a rookie. That is the side that has definitely surprised me as like many i don't think he is really expected to reach the heights of those around him. Who knows though, if he can find the right balance of consistency and aggression and has the right work ethic then maybe he can close the gap to the elite. Be certainly strikes me as someone who is willing to put in the hard graft and not take what he has for granted. I do really hope he continues to surprise but do not argue that he has an uphill struggle in terms of out and out pace. Statements coming out of red Bull do suggest he's done enough to be in the car for next season testing though.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:33 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
For me the Japan lap was far more than I'd have expected from albon. It's not like red Bull are spoilt for choices at the moment. I'd guess what red Bull have been pleasantly surprised by how solid and consistent albon has been for a rookie. That is the side that has definitely surprised me as like many i don't think he is really expected to reach the heights of those around him. Who knows though, if he can find the right balance of consistency and aggression and has the right work ethic then maybe he can close the gap to the elite. Be certainly strikes me as someone who is willing to put in the hard graft and not take what he has for granted. I do really hope he continues to surprise but do not argue that he has an uphill struggle in terms of out and out pace. Statements coming out of red Bull do suggest he's done enough to be in the car for next season testing though.


For me the Japan Q3 lap looks like it really was just underperformance from MV though.

MV was 0.3 and 0.4 quicker than Albon in the two practice sessions, (practice 3 was cancelled), and Albon's fastest race lap wasn't anything special, although unfortunately Max was crashed into at the start and never got any clear laps before retiring so we couldn't see his race pace and so the picture is a bit unclear, but based on Albon's lack of speed in the other six races he has done for Red Bull, I don't think we can just automatically give him credit for Japan when it was essentially an unclear weekend where the small but inconclusive evidence tends to point towards him probably still being slow, particularly as in the race he didn't finish that far ahead of the midfield, only 10 seconds ahead of Sainz.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:58 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?

Maybe but I think it's too early to have a definitive opinion about Albon.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?

Maybe but I think it's too early to have a definitive opinion about Albon.


When does Albon need to show pace by for you? How many more races?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:21 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?

Maybe but I think it's too early to have a definitive opinion about Albon.


When does Albon need to show pace by for you? How many more races?

I give any driver 2 seasons to prove themselves, the likes of Button and Rosberg would never have been world champions under this kind of prove yourself immediately scrutiny.

Like I say it's too soon to know the actual level of Albon.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:20 am 
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The reason Bottas was able to do that hold up job at Monza 2018 was because he was slow that weekend. He was 10 seconds off the lead on lap 21 when Kimi pitted.

The number two needs to be quick but not too quick. Well actually if they are quick they can be used to undercut rivals and force them into pitting but if they are that quick they will beat the number 1 quite a lot of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:56 am 
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Obviously Gasly has done enough to secure his place, he has been confirmed as Red Bull's second driver.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Obviously Gasly has done enough to secure his place, he has been confirmed as Red Bull's second driver.

You mean Albon? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Obviously Gasly has done enough to secure his place, he has been confirmed as Red Bull's second driver.

You mean Albon? :?


Oops, ALBON sorry to confuse the issue, thank you Mr P


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:02 pm 
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Albon nearly half a second off Verstappen on a short lap like Interlagos? Sorry, not good enough again. It's his 8th race weekend in the car now and he's not getting any closer.

If Red Bull produce a good enough car next year to put Verstappen in the title fight, Albon will almost certainly cost them the constructors' title on this form.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:42 pm 
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j man wrote:
Albon nearly half a second off Verstappen on a short lap like Interlagos? Sorry, not good enough again. It's his 8th race weekend in the car now and he's not getting any closer.

If Red Bull produce a good enough car next year to put Verstappen in the title fight, Albon will almost certainly cost them the constructors' title on this form.


The difficulty is who would you get in as an upgrade?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Exactly, I'm beginning to think that there will be a difference no matter who drives the Red Bull.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:02 pm 
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Gasly scoring a podium before Albon does - crazy stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:23 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Exactly, I'm beginning to think that there will be a difference no matter who drives the Red Bull.

I suppose the question is; how big of a difference will there be. It's not unreasonable to suggest that Red Bull could hire someone quicker than Albon. I'm sure Hulkenberg was available and might possibly have been an upgrade, for example.

That said, Bottas was way off of his teammate's pace today too so you have to be careful comparing drivers to the very top guys. Those guys can make anyone look bad and Max was absolutely on fire this weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:31 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Exactly, I'm beginning to think that there will be a difference no matter who drives the Red Bull.

I suppose the question is; how big of a difference will there be. It's not unreasonable to suggest that Red Bull could hire someone quicker than Albon. I'm sure Hulkenberg was available and might possibly have been an upgrade, for example.

That said, Bottas was way off of his teammate's pace today too so you have to be careful comparing drivers to the very top guys. Those guys can make anyone look bad and Max was absolutely on fire this weekend.


Using Ricciardo as a benchmark Hulk is about 3-4 tenths off Verstappen. Albon is about half a second.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Exactly, I'm beginning to think that there will be a difference no matter who drives the Red Bull.

I suppose the question is; how big of a difference will there be. It's not unreasonable to suggest that Red Bull could hire someone quicker than Albon. I'm sure Hulkenberg was available and might possibly have been an upgrade, for example.

That said, Bottas was way off of his teammate's pace today too so you have to be careful comparing drivers to the very top guys. Those guys can make anyone look bad and Max was absolutely on fire this weekend.


Using Ricciardo as a benchmark Hulk is about 3-4 tenths off Verstappen. Albon is about half a second.

Yeah, not an exact science but I think with Hulk, they would probably just about have their Bottas. The question is; can Albon make that step forward in his second year (not an unreasonable expectation).


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:42 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


In the current climate where they've been terrified of penalising anything, a penalty for Hamilton here is massively out of step. It would basically a penalty for being nice and accepting fault.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:51 pm 
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Albon had a shocker today, he was probably on course to finish about 50 seconds behind Max if the race wasn't safety car'ed.

Bottas was pretty bad himself but would have beaten Albon still even with worse equipment at this circuit. Leclerc too, despite a worse car and starting way behind him on the grid.

As for the penultimate lap crash, Albon was a baffoon, he just turned into Hamilton, who had a significant portion of his car alongside and there was tonnes of space on the outside for Albon to have used. He was not unlucky to miss out on a podium, he was poor and I'm glad he didn't fluke one. Kevin Magnussen vs Danny Ric. showed what the outside driver should do, and that is leave space on the inside, (hence why KM was not penalised).


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:52 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Albon had a shocker today, he was probably on course to finish about 50 seconds behind Max if the race wasn't safety car'ed.

Bottas was pretty bad himself but would have beaten Albon still even with worse equipment at this circuit. Leclerc too, despite a worse car and starting way behind him on the grid.

As for the penultimate lap crash, Albon was a baffoon, he just turned into Hamilton, who had a significant portion of his car alongside and there was tonnes of space on the outside for Albon to have used. He was not unlucky to miss out on a podium, he was poor and I'm glad he didn't fluke one. Kevin Magnussen vs Danny Ric. showed what the outside driver should do, and that is leave space on the inside, (hence why KM was not penalised).


Surprised it took you so long!


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:53 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Albon had a shocker today, he was probably on course to finish about 50 seconds behind Max if the race wasn't safety car'ed.

Bottas was pretty bad himself but would have beaten Albon still even with worse equipment at this circuit. Leclerc too, despite a worse car and starting way behind him on the grid.

As for the penultimate lap crash, Albon was a baffoon, he just turned into Hamilton, who had a significant portion of his car alongside and there was tonnes of space on the outside for Albon to have used. He was not unlucky to miss out on a podium, he was poor and I'm glad he didn't fluke one. Kevin Magnussen vs Danny Ric. showed what the outside driver should do, and that is leave space on the inside, (hence why KM was not penalised).


Surprised it took you so long!


Yeah, I was as slow as Albon today!


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:57 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Albon had a shocker today, he was probably on course to finish about 50 seconds behind Max if the race wasn't safety car'ed.

Bottas was pretty bad himself but would have beaten Albon still even with worse equipment at this circuit. Leclerc too, despite a worse car and starting way behind him on the grid.

As for the penultimate lap crash, Albon was a baffoon, he just turned into Hamilton, who had a significant portion of his car alongside and there was tonnes of space on the outside for Albon to have used. He was not unlucky to miss out on a podium, he was poor and I'm glad he didn't fluke one. Kevin Magnussen vs Danny Ric. showed what the outside driver should do, and that is leave space on the inside, (hence why KM was not penalised).


Why are you obsessed with speed? Albon showed great overtaking till the end. I suppose you want Gasly back now.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


It depends on the Stewards and their decision is never consistent. But he took a driver out of podium by running into him. For whatever reason if Hamilton is not given penalty. I think one of the reason would because his name is Hamilton and other driver is a rookie :uhoh: I am not a Mcalren fan but Sainz should have been on the podium

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Albon had a shocker today, he was probably on course to finish about 50 seconds behind Max if the race wasn't safety car'ed.

Bottas was pretty bad himself but would have beaten Albon still even with worse equipment at this circuit. Leclerc too, despite a worse car and starting way behind him on the grid.

As for the penultimate lap crash, Albon was a baffoon, he just turned into Hamilton, who had a significant portion of his car alongside and there was tonnes of space on the outside for Albon to have used. He was not unlucky to miss out on a podium, he was poor and I'm glad he didn't fluke one. Kevin Magnussen vs Danny Ric. showed what the outside driver should do, and that is leave space on the inside, (hence why KM was not penalised).


Why are you obsessed with speed? Albon showed great overtaking till the end. I suppose you want Gasly back now.


He passed Vettel after an SC restart/bunching where SV lost out more than Albon, and Albon had better tyres too! That move doesn't count!

I can't think of any other passes he did?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:22 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


It depends on the Stewards and their decision is never consistent. But he took a driver out of podium by running into him. For whatever reason if Hamilton is not given penalty. I think one of the reason would because his name is Hamilton and other driver is a rookie :uhoh: I am not a Mcalren fan but Sainz should have been on the podium


Wrong, Albon moved into LH's inside lane and crashed into him, costing LH second place. Albon is at fault for this crash as he is the one with big lateral movement towards LH's car.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:35 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


It depends on the Stewards and their decision is never consistent. But he took a driver out of podium by running into him. For whatever reason if Hamilton is not given penalty. I think one of the reason would because his name is Hamilton and other driver is a rookie :uhoh: I am not a Mcalren fan but Sainz should have been on the podium

I think that's totally ridiculous to be honest. Hamilton has gotten the short end of it when it comes to penalties. They let Leclerc get away with a lot in defending against him back at Monza but they apply the penalty to Hamilton today. If you think he benefits from the stewards, I'd like to know what series you've been watching.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think that's totally ridiculous to be honest. Hamilton has gotten the short end of it when it comes to penalties. They let Leclerc get away with a lot in defending against him back at Monza but they apply the penalty to Hamilton today. If you think he benefits from the stewards, I'd like to know what series you've been watching.

I think you have to consider two factors for Hamilton's penalty today:

1) The Ricciardo/Magnussen crash earlier in the race. They already penalized Ricciardo for doing almost exactly the same thing, leaving them little room to go.
2) Hamilton admitted fault in his interviews.

It was a racing incident, but so was the RIC/MAG clash. I'm just happy to see they called them both the same way, even if I don't necessarily agree with either call.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Red minded me a lot of Hill-Schumacher at Silverstone. The space was there but it was a pretty optimistic move from Lewis. Real shame for Albon, no-sh*t he isn’t as fast as Max but he deserves a podium IMO.

That said, I’m also delighted for Gasly.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:34 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:56 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think that's totally ridiculous to be honest. Hamilton has gotten the short end of it when it comes to penalties. They let Leclerc get away with a lot in defending against him back at Monza but they apply the penalty to Hamilton today. If you think he benefits from the stewards, I'd like to know what series you've been watching.

I think you have to consider two factors for Hamilton's penalty today:

1) The Ricciardo/Magnussen crash earlier in the race. They already penalized Ricciardo for doing almost exactly the same thing, leaving them little room to go.
2) Hamilton admitted fault in his interviews.

It was a racing incident, but so was the RIC/MAG clash. I'm just happy to see they called them both the same way, even if I don't necessarily agree with either call.


The Ricciardo/Magnussen crash was completely different. There KMag gave DR plenty of space on the inside but DR went flying into KMag anyway. If KMag had chopped fully across to the inside then I would agree with you that these two incidents are very similar, but he didn't.

With Hamilton/Albon, Lewis was not given any space at all because Albon clumsily wasn't looking and underestimated Hamilton.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:23 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


It depends on the Stewards and their decision is never consistent. But he took a driver out of podium by running into him. For whatever reason if Hamilton is not given penalty. I think one of the reason would because his name is Hamilton and other driver is a rookie :uhoh: I am not a Mcalren fan but Sainz should have been on the podium


Wrong, Albon moved into LH's inside lane and crashed into him, costing LH second place. Albon is at fault for this crash as he is the one with big lateral movement towards LH's car.

And this is why Lewis apologised to Albon, because Albon crashed into him... Oh wait


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:32 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


It depends on the Stewards and their decision is never consistent. But he took a driver out of podium by running into him. For whatever reason if Hamilton is not given penalty. I think one of the reason would because his name is Hamilton and other driver is a rookie :uhoh: I am not a Mcalren fan but Sainz should have been on the podium


Wrong, Albon moved into LH's inside lane and crashed into him, costing LH second place. Albon is at fault for this crash as he is the one with big lateral movement towards LH's car.

My my, that's transpired to be a rather embarrassing post. I think you will find LH apologised for the incident immediately after the race and took full responsibility for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:30 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Albon lacks speed but that move on Vettel from outside was very skillful. He deserved a podium just for that. Quite baffling why Hamilton has not been handed over penalty for running into him. Kvyat would not even allowed to be podium or being interviewed if he was there instead of Hamilton :uhoh:

I think the incident is far from a slam dunk penalty in this case. Hamilton had the gap and he went for it. Albon took the corner as if he wasn't there. Opinions will differ on incidents like that. Some might say that the move wasn't on and that Hamilton shouldn't have gone for it. Others will say that it's racing and that he had to have a go and Albon lacked awareness. I don't think I'd personally hand out a penalty for that one.


It depends on the Stewards and their decision is never consistent. But he took a driver out of podium by running into him. For whatever reason if Hamilton is not given penalty. I think one of the reason would because his name is Hamilton and other driver is a rookie :uhoh: I am not a Mcalren fan but Sainz should have been on the podium


Wrong, Albon moved into LH's inside lane and crashed into him, costing LH second place. Albon is at fault for this crash as he is the one with big lateral movement towards LH's car.

My my, that's transpired to be a rather embarrassing post. I think you will find LH apologised for the incident immediately after the race and took full responsibility for it.


The apology means nothing, it was just a kind gesture to say that sort of thing when he doesn't really care whether he comes 3rd or 7th in this race with the WDC title already in the bag. If this race mattered to LH, he would have been saying ''Albon was crazy to be turning in on me like that'' or words to that effect. So the comments mean nothing, all that matters is what the cars actually did leading up to the contact.

Also, Albon's comments afterwards showed that he is annoyed at himself for his driving here, leaving the door open like that and not really looking as he assumed no passing move would be attempted and he relaxed too much. But like I said, we can't look into comments too much, when all the evidence we need is in the footage of the incident.

At worst this is a 50:50 racing incident, but I am inclined to feel that you should be able to go for a gap if it's there, and this was not a Danny Ric. style divebomb either as Lewis was easily making it round the corner via a tight inside line as his car is snug against the inside of the corner and not flying towards the outside of the track.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:47 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
The apology means nothing, it was just a kind gesture to say that sort of thing when he doesn't really care whether he comes 3rd or 7th in this race with the WDC title already in the bag. If this race mattered to LH, he would have been saying ''Albon was crazy to be turning in on me like that'' or words to that effect. So the comments mean nothing, all that matters is what the cars actually did leading up to the contact.

Also, Albon's comments afterwards showed that he is annoyed at himself for his driving here, leaving the door open like that and not really looking as he assumed no passing move would be attempted and he relaxed too much. But like I said, we can't look into comments too much, when all the evidence we need is in the footage of the incident.

At worst this is a 50:50 racing incident, but I am inclined to feel that you should be able to go for a gap if it's there, and this was not a Danny Ric. style divebomb either as Lewis was easily making it round the corner via a tight inside line as his car is snug against the inside of the corner and not flying towards the outside of the track.


I've just seen this properly for the first time with inboards etc, and I can't believe I'm about to agree with F1 Racer... but this was a 50:50 collision, Albon left the door WIDE open against a charging Hamilton who was perfectly entitled to have a go, and he was in part alongside on corner entry, in control on the inside and hugging the apex - he didn't run wide a la ricciardo on KMAG - but Albon didn't leave him the necessary room, and you can't leave the inside open and then go ahead and take the normal line, it's gonna end up in a collision.

Hamilton took the blame because he felt bad for Albon, as did probably majority of spectators, including myself, but hamilton really didn't deserve a penalty and Albon will have to learn from this


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:04 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
The apology means nothing, it was just a kind gesture to say that sort of thing when he doesn't really care whether he comes 3rd or 7th in this race with the WDC title already in the bag. If this race mattered to LH, he would have been saying ''Albon was crazy to be turning in on me like that'' or words to that effect. So the comments mean nothing, all that matters is what the cars actually did leading up to the contact.

Also, Albon's comments afterwards showed that he is annoyed at himself for his driving here, leaving the door open like that and not really looking as he assumed no passing move would be attempted and he relaxed too much. But like I said, we can't look into comments too much, when all the evidence we need is in the footage of the incident.

At worst this is a 50:50 racing incident, but I am inclined to feel that you should be able to go for a gap if it's there, and this was not a Danny Ric. style divebomb either as Lewis was easily making it round the corner via a tight inside line as his car is snug against the inside of the corner and not flying towards the outside of the track.


I've just seen this properly for the first time with inboards etc, and I can't believe I'm about to agree with F1 Racer... but this was a 50:50 collision, Albon left the door WIDE open against a charging Hamilton who was perfectly entitled to have a go, and he was in part alongside on corner entry, in control on the inside and hugging the apex - he didn't run wide a la ricciardo on KMAG - but Albon didn't leave him the necessary room, and you can't leave the inside open and then go ahead and take the normal line, it's gonna end up in a collision.

Hamilton took the blame because he felt bad for Albon, as did probably majority of spectators, including myself, but hamilton really didn't deserve a penalty and Albon will have to learn from this

Did he confide that to you? How can people make claims like that? You just don't know that this is the reason. Maybe it is true, but you can't present it as a fact, just because.

So from now on every time someone accepts blame it is because they don't really mean it? I am trying very hard to understand this; we have the driver accepting blame and the stewards awarding a penalty after reviewing the incident, yet we are still questioning it?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:10 am 
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I’m in agreement with F1 racer for once, but I do want to see the onboards. That wasn’t Hamiltons fault and a big trait of the current Hamilton is to be over apologetic (unless it’s with Rosberg) and very self critical to his own mistakes. So his apology to me is more a sorry I lost you your first podium Alex.

The accident happened because Albon had no idea he was there so it’s not comparable to Ricciardo and KMag and in that incident Ricciardo understeered into KMag.

Albons pass on Vettel was great but for me, the race pace and qualifying was sub par. Yes it was his first time in Brazil and he is quite new to the car. But he has 8 races under his belt now. I’m not writing him off but he needs to find a couple of tenths in qualifying and race pace. I am glad he got the seat for next season and he will get a full pre season under his belt and importantly he knows all the tracks now. It will be interesting to see how that unfolds, I can see him being a perfect number 2 to Verstappen he just needs to find a few tenths that is very plausible.


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