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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regulations
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:58 pm 
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The car in the picture posted looks awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regulations
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Grip is currently 55% at one car length new rules will up this to 86%


Can someone explain what this means?


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regulations
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:25 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Grip is currently 55% at one car length new rules will up this to 86%


Can someone explain what this means?



Levels of downforce retained. 100% is maximum, and currently cars one length behind the car in front lose (according to Option or Prime's figures) 45% of downforce. The new regs suppose that at one length the cars will only lose about 14% of downforce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JddVHuPmCM

You can go to minute 16-17 or so for the segment on downforce levels.

It's supposed during the segment that after teams develop as best they can around the regulations, these figures will be a bit lower, but that ultimately there will be a drastic improvement in the cars retaining downforce whilst following.


Last edited by Invade on Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regulations
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:25 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Grip is currently 55% at one car length new rules will up this to 86%


Can someone explain what this means?


I'm no expert but:

Because the current aero regs generate turbulence if a car is following another that following car only has 55% of the grip it would have in clean air.
The new proposed regulation get their downforce from elsewhere, (under the car basically). This means a car following in the new aero package at one cars length would have 86% of the grip it would have if it were in clean air.

Basically it can follow close behind without losing grip making overtaking in bends much more feasible. If the car were 3 lengths behind it would have 96% of the grip.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regulations
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Thanks for your replies - sounds quite promising at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:38 pm 
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merged thread with existing one

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:51 pm 
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I hope the racing is as awesome as the cars look.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regulations
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:44 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
The car in the picture posted looks awesome.


Yes. Are we finally rid of high noses and that awful underbody arch between the front wheels? If so, good!

Not sure about the 'mudguards'. Are they a safety measure to stop one car lifting another up if their wheels touch?


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Ross Brawn:
A new "reference specification" will be introduced, whereby cars undergo initial scrutineering and the bodywork - excluding radiators - presented will effectively be frozen.
Development parts can then be trialled in FP1 and FP2 but cannot be used for the rest of the weekend, as the car must be returned to its reference specification before the start of final practice.
"You will on the Friday be able to try things. If you want to try a new front wing you can do that but you can't race it.
"The idea behind that is to stop the proliferation or the necessity to build lots of parts in case that front wing works.
"In current F1 you want to take a new front wing to the track and try it, you're concerned it will work well and therefore you need to make two or three of them for when you turn up at the track so both drivers can have it and you've got a spare.
"Suddenly you've got a huge expense and you're flying in parts last-minute to satisfy that need."

So, with this new system, you can't test mods for the race and track you're at, hence the testing is for future races. You still do it though as any testing's better than none. How much does that save?

Yes you avoid having to rush to make extra new wings, but you still have to make them for the next race. So apart from hiring charter flights, what is saved?

Excellent thinking from Liberty as usual... x(


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:44 am 
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Image
Source: https://d3cm515ijfiu6w.cloudfront.net/w ... 00x367.jpg

Given all the bits and pieces of small aero devices on the current cars, I can't believe that those smooth flowing lines are going to be how the 2021 cars will actually look. Unless there is an explicit ban on the Bitsa approach there will continue to be a lot of small winglets and other aerodynamic trinkets on the cars.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:55 am 
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tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:00 am 
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A small illustration of what the new rules want to achieve:


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:26 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:49 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


Yeah i've been saying the same. Whats to stop Merc, Ferrari or Renault outsourcing a large part of the development costs to their other divisions or or child company's?

Whats to stop RB & TR from starting to share development costs?

Logistically I think it's going to be a massive task for the accountants to track team expenditure should the need arise.

I can see big problems with this budget cap. Not only from an auditing point of view but also from a competitive point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:54 am 
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Posts: 7799
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


Yeah i've been saying the same. Whats to stop Merc, Ferrari or Renault outsourcing a large part of the development costs to their other divisions or or child company's?

Whats to stop RB & TR from starting to share development costs?

Logistically I think it's going to be a massive task for the accountants to track team expenditure should the need arise.

I can see big problems with this budget cap. Not only from an auditing point of view but also from a competitive point of view.

Yes, fully agree with you, sorry if I repeated something you said already, it is difficult to track posts sometimes. It is not football or something that there is no way for the teams to outsource things (outsource what really??), here they develop technology, this can be done in so many ways.

As for financially tracking it, good luck to them


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:54 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16309
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


Yeah i've been saying the same. Whats to stop Merc, Ferrari or Renault outsourcing a large part of the development costs to their other divisions or or child company's?

Whats to stop RB & TR from starting to share development costs?

Logistically I think it's going to be a massive task for the accountants to track team expenditure should the need arise.

I can see big problems with this budget cap. Not only from an auditing point of view but also from a competitive point of view.


I think you have to just officially state that the penalties will be huge and what they will be. If everyone knows you'll be done for the season if caught cheating people will be less likely to cheat.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:56 am 
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Posts: 7799
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:

Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


Yeah i've been saying the same. Whats to stop Merc, Ferrari or Renault outsourcing a large part of the development costs to their other divisions or or child company's?

Whats to stop RB & TR from starting to share development costs?

Logistically I think it's going to be a massive task for the accountants to track team expenditure should the need arise.

I can see big problems with this budget cap. Not only from an auditing point of view but also from a competitive point of view.


I think you have to just officially state that the penalties will be huge and what they will be. If everyone knows you'll be done for the season if caught cheating people will be less likely to cheat.


That hasn't stopped people cheating before though. They knew what the outcome is if you get caught with another team's data for example, but they've still done it (more than once)


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:59 am 
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Posts: 16309
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:

Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


Yeah i've been saying the same. Whats to stop Merc, Ferrari or Renault outsourcing a large part of the development costs to their other divisions or or child company's?

Whats to stop RB & TR from starting to share development costs?

Logistically I think it's going to be a massive task for the accountants to track team expenditure should the need arise.

I can see big problems with this budget cap. Not only from an auditing point of view but also from a competitive point of view.


I think you have to just officially state that the penalties will be huge and what they will be. If everyone knows you'll be done for the season if caught cheating people will be less likely to cheat.


That hasn't stopped people cheating before though. They knew what the outcome is if you get caught with another team's data for example, but they've still done it (more than once)


The problem is they don't know what the penalty would be though. We've seen a myriad of penalties or non penalties given for that.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:08 am 
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Posts: 7799
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.


Yeah i've been saying the same. Whats to stop Merc, Ferrari or Renault outsourcing a large part of the development costs to their other divisions or or child company's?

Whats to stop RB & TR from starting to share development costs?

Logistically I think it's going to be a massive task for the accountants to track team expenditure should the need arise.

I can see big problems with this budget cap. Not only from an auditing point of view but also from a competitive point of view.


I think you have to just officially state that the penalties will be huge and what they will be. If everyone knows you'll be done for the season if caught cheating people will be less likely to cheat.


That hasn't stopped people cheating before though. They knew what the outcome is if you get caught with another team's data for example, but they've still done it (more than once)


The problem is they don't know what the penalty would be though. We've seen a myriad of penalties or non penalties given for that.


That's true and I'm not sure what the penalty is for the transgression I mentioned above (only what Macca got). To state what the penalty will be will probably help, but I'm pretty sure that they can get away with a lot. Finances can get soooooo murky, they could hide expenses anywhere and everywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:08 pm 
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Sounds promising. But we just need to wait and see.
2020 season however is going to be basically a countdown to 2021.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Posts: 1882
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/



Football finances are nothing like F1 finances. Their football experience will count for zilch here.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:46 pm 
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Posts: 2662
ReservoirDog wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/



Football finances are nothing like F1 finances. Their football experience will count for zilch here.


Deloitte are probably the biggest and best financial auditing firm in the world


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:50 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
Sounds promising. But we just need to wait and see.
2020 season however is going to be basically a countdown to 2021.


I don't know. We could have the closest title fight between different teams since 2012 permitting Ferrari continue to improve their car. I'm looking forward to next season already.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:42 pm 
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I'm just glad they're going down the sporting route to make the racing better rather than introducing gimmicks so F1 keeps it's integrity.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?

If not then I worry that they aren't really super confident that these changes will make the downforce difference that we've been told. Similar to how this year's front wings were supposed to make a big difference and the change has been minimal.

Cars that can run closer together shouldn't need DRS to overtake each other, particularly when the car behind gets a natural slipstream effect when following closely down a straight anyway.

The sooner DRS is removed the better in my view. The overtakes always felt a lot fairer in the old days, (even if the old days also needed more overtaking as the lack of downforce for the following car was still an issue back then). For example Bottas passing Hamilton for the win yesterday wasn't that exciting as he just breezed past on the straight and was ahead well before the corner and these types of passes I don't enjoy as there isn't much 'battling' shall we say.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:35 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?

If not then I worry that they aren't really super confident that these changes will make the downforce difference that we've been told. Similar to how this year's front wings were supposed to make a big difference and the change has been minimal.

Cars that can run closer together shouldn't need DRS to overtake each other, particularly when the car behind gets a natural slipstream effect when following closely down a straight anyway.

The sooner DRS is removed the better in my view. The overtakes always felt a lot fairer in the old days, (even if the old days also needed more overtaking as the lack of downforce for the following car was still an issue back then). For example Bottas passing Hamilton for the win yesterday wasn't that exciting as he just breezed past on the straight and was ahead well before the corner and these types of passes I don't enjoy as there isn't much 'battling' shall we say.


I suspect that 2021 might be a bit of a caricature which highlights that we no longer need DRS.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:36 am 
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Invade wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?

If not then I worry that they aren't really super confident that these changes will make the downforce difference that we've been told. Similar to how this year's front wings were supposed to make a big difference and the change has been minimal.

Cars that can run closer together shouldn't need DRS to overtake each other, particularly when the car behind gets a natural slipstream effect when following closely down a straight anyway.

The sooner DRS is removed the better in my view. The overtakes always felt a lot fairer in the old days, (even if the old days also needed more overtaking as the lack of downforce for the following car was still an issue back then). For example Bottas passing Hamilton for the win yesterday wasn't that exciting as he just breezed past on the straight and was ahead well before the corner and these types of passes I don't enjoy as there isn't much 'battling' shall we say.


I suspect that 2021 might be a bit of a caricature which highlights that we no longer need DRS.


But it's in for now right? Hmmm...


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:51 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?


During the interview with Ross Brawn by Martin Brundle over at Sky F1, this question was asked. Paraphrasing, his reply was that they're not removing it yet but their goal with the regulation changes is to reduce the reliance on DRS.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:00 am 
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Lord Crc wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?


During the interview with Ross Brawn by Martin Brundle over at Sky F1, this question was asked. Paraphrasing, his reply was that they're not removing it yet but their goal with the regulation changes is to reduce the reliance on DRS.


Ok, thanks.

It's a bit worrying that they aren't confident enough yet to remove it completely, but hopefully that will come in time.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:40 am 
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So, I am still unclear on the aero regulations. When they say that "a car following in the new aero package at one cars length would have 86% of the grip it would have if it were in clean air." is that a function of the leading car causing less turbulence, or the following car relying less on aero downforce for grip, or both.

I have heard that these cars are something like 3 seconds per lap slower? Is that because they have less aero grip and therefore are slower around the corners? Are they going to be faster on the straits?


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:37 pm 
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Longnose wrote:
So, I am still unclear on the aero regulations. When they say that "a car following in the new aero package at one cars length would have 86% of the grip it would have if it were in clean air." is that a function of the leading car causing less turbulence, or the following car relying less on aero downforce for grip, or both.

I have heard that these cars are something like 3 seconds per lap slower? Is that because they have less aero grip and therefore are slower around the corners? Are they going to be faster on the straits?

This article explains the aero proposals quite well.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/formula1/50222105


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Read the other day that there are talks about dropping the new tyres for 2020. Surely if the tyres are going to have less drop off and less dependency on temperature then they are going to have worse peak performance? Provided that they perform more consistently across different conditions and when following another car then they will be a step in the right direction and you would expect the drivers and teams would take a little time to get used to them? I hope they give them a proper chance and don't just write them off after one, very cold practice session? And surely there is still time for pirrelli to refine them further? Hopefully they are just putting some pressure on pirrelli to raise there game and that pirrelli themselves are taking this seriously and not just taking it for granted after little competition for the contact. This is there shop window after all! (Know this isn't strictly 2021 but these tyres will still impact that ruleset)


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:59 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Lord Crc wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?


During the interview with Ross Brawn by Martin Brundle over at Sky F1, this question was asked. Paraphrasing, his reply was that they're not removing it yet but their goal with the regulation changes is to reduce the reliance on DRS.


Ok, thanks.

It's a bit worrying that they aren't confident enough yet to remove it completely, but hopefully that will come in time.

Over confidence is not a good thing, it would be quite arrogant of them to think the 2021 rules will totally alleviate the problems of over taking, so you leave DRS in the rules just in case.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:02 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Read the other day that there are talks about dropping the new tyres for 2020. Surely if the tyres are going to have less drop off and less dependency on temperature then they are going to have worse peak performance? Provided that they perform more consistently across different conditions and when following another car then they will be a step in the right direction and you would expect the drivers and teams would take a little time to get used to them? I hope they give them a proper chance and don't just write them off after one, very cold practice session? And surely there is still time for pirrelli to refine them further? Hopefully they are just putting some pressure on pirrelli to raise there game and that pirrelli themselves are taking this seriously and not just taking it for granted after little competition for the contact. This is there shop window after all! (Know this isn't strictly 2021 but these tyres will still impact that ruleset)

The tyres were bad so can you really go forward with tyres like that with so little testing?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Lord Crc wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Sorry if this has already been covered but are they planning to remove DRS for 2021?


During the interview with Ross Brawn by Martin Brundle over at Sky F1, this question was asked. Paraphrasing, his reply was that they're not removing it yet but their goal with the regulation changes is to reduce the reliance on DRS.


Ok, thanks.

It's a bit worrying that they aren't confident enough yet to remove it completely, but hopefully that will come in time.

Over confidence is not a good thing, it would be quite arrogant of them to think the 2021 rules will totally alleviate the problems of over taking, so you leave DRS in the rules just in case.


This is true, you are right.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.



i'm no expert either, and like everyone else, still a bit in the dark on how they police this. my thought is ferrari(or any big team) create a company "ferrari aero" all current employees go to his company and continue their same work, same money sent on it as they do now. they sell this aero work to ferrari f1 for $1.00.
so the f1 team is only spending a buck on aero, they get to spend the same, but keep under the cap. sure f1 could ban that quickly, but it could end up in court too ??
i just see no way to really monitor all the spending.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:35 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think they are hoping that the budget cap will be self policing between the teams; Do you really want to be the team to be found to be cheating the new spending cap rules? There would be blue murder, and if anyone was hiding a ton of expense and suddenly started running away with every race, you imagine the other teams would be all over it. Im sure the FIA can afford a forensic accountant or 2 as well, to make thoroughly sure that no one is cooking the books.


Sadly I'm not convinced a budget cap can be policed. How can the FIA check everything a team like Mercedes are up to behind the scenes? I expect they can hide some of their design and R&D costs behind non-F1 activities, or sub-contractors, secret off-shore companies or any number of impenetrable schemes their accountants can dream up.

I think expecting them to play fair is unrealistic. Teams have always taken any opportunity they can find to circumvent the rules.


Brawn has said if any team were to be found breaching the Budget cap rule, the team will lose all of its championship points. He said in the past there were failures in trying to implement this or monitor it but now it's better to police it.

He said:
“We’ve got a very strong team of financial experts within the FIA and within F1, and we’ve sought outside support on this.
Deloitte are one of the experts on sports finances, they’ve been very involved with the football world, and you can see the positive effect that’s starting to have.
I fully expect that we are going to have challenges in the future to implement this, but it’s absolutely essential for the good of F1 that we have a control on the finances and how much is spent in F1."

https://www.planetf1.com/news/breach-financial-rules-lose-your-championship/


Not an expert obviously, but in my mind they could hide so much engine technology within their road department, same as Renault and Honda (Ferrari don't do such small engines, yet). While once technology was migrating from F1 to the road cars, we could see the opposite here with the budget caps.



i'm no expert either, and like everyone else, still a bit in the dark on how they police this. my thought is ferrari(or any big team) create a company "ferrari aero" all current employees go to his company and continue their same work, same money sent on it as they do now. they sell this aero work to ferrari f1 for $1.00.
so the f1 team is only spending a buck on aero, they get to spend the same, but keep under the cap. sure f1 could ban that quickly, but it could end up in court too ??
i just see no way to really monitor all the spending.


The aero department would have to sell the work to Ferrari for a profit, not only for $1.00 and make a massive loss.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:36 pm 
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Regarding the idea of reverse grids:

I used to race a Brisca F1 stock car. We worked to reverse grids. Every month the drivers were graded according to the points accrued in that month. We were then split into 5 groups according to points scored in that month. The top scorers started at the back and the low scorers at the front. The top drivers invariably ended up at the top over the season, but it provided diverse winners. It was exciting to watch the top drivers (Invariably in better cars) fight to come through from the back to win. It probably wouldn't work with the aero effect of today's F1 cars, but if the cars were not so aero dependant, maybe it could offer an alternative. Even if only at a few races? Brisca F1 has never been any different and it was never short of excitement.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Read the other day that there are talks about dropping the new tyres for 2020. Surely if the tyres are going to have less drop off and less dependency on temperature then they are going to have worse peak performance? Provided that they perform more consistently across different conditions and when following another car then they will be a step in the right direction and you would expect the drivers and teams would take a little time to get used to them? I hope they give them a proper chance and don't just write them off after one, very cold practice session? And surely there is still time for pirrelli to refine them further? Hopefully they are just putting some pressure on pirrelli to raise there game and that pirrelli themselves are taking this seriously and not just taking it for granted after little competition for the contact. This is there shop window after all! (Know this isn't strictly 2021 but these tyres will still impact that ruleset)

The tyres were bad so can you really go forward with tyres like that with so little testing?

Reading further about the 2020 tyres they are designed not to overheat like the present tyres so testing them in the fairly cold conditions we saw in Austin was perhaps not the wisest thing were they could not generate enough heat plus were only being run for about 5 laps at a time.

Apparently the tyres are gong to be further tested in the much warmer climes of Abu Dhabi.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:13 pm 
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nibaru wrote:
Regarding the idea of reverse grids:

I used to race a Brisca F1 stock car. We worked to reverse grids. Every month the drivers were graded according to the points accrued in that month. We were then split into 5 groups according to points scored in that month. The top scorers started at the back and the low scorers at the front. The top drivers invariably ended up at the top over the season, but it provided diverse winners. It was exciting to watch the top drivers (Invariably in better cars) fight to come through from the back to win. It probably wouldn't work with the aero effect of today's F1 cars, but if the cars were not so aero dependant, maybe it could offer an alternative. Even if only at a few races? Brisca F1 has never been any different and it was never short of excitement.

Horses for courses, how many F1 fans watch that kind of racing, I know I don't, having the Lance Stroll's of this world winning F1 races just devalues F1 in my opinion.

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