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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:16 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I don't really see the point (pun intended) in not giving the drivers outside of the top 10 a chance for the fastest lap point.

There would also be the case that you would see teams that virtually never get points doing some of the most odd strategies to get fastest lap at the end. This would then have strange results with the team at the bottom at the championship possibly getting all their points this way. I think it makes perfect sense to only allow the top 10 to get this.


But they would be bottom of the championship, (even after supposedly getting all these fastest lap points), so what difference would it make, what would it have gained them?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:06 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I don't really see the point (pun intended) in not giving the drivers outside of the top 10 a chance for the fastest lap point.

There would also be the case that you would see teams that virtually never get points doing some of the most odd strategies to get fastest lap at the end. This would then have strange results with the team at the bottom at the championship possibly getting all their points this way. I think it makes perfect sense to only allow the top 10 to get this.


But they would be bottom of the championship, (even after supposedly getting all these fastest lap points), so what difference would it make, what would it have gained them?

I say fair play to them if a backmarker would manage to get some points by driving the fastest lap. I doubt however that Williams would be able to do that even if they got fresh softs on the last lap of the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not precisely sure how unpopular this one will be, but...

Vettel should have had a race ban by now, and the only reason he hasn't is that the FIA is reluctant to give him penalty points for fear of just that outcome.

I agree. As I wrote on the race thread, Grosjean was handed a ban for less than what Vettel has done over the past 18 months. Also it's clear he shows no remorse and takes no responsibility for his actions, so some level of punishment is needed for him to perhaps actually reflect on what he is doing wrong.

How bad does it look for the sport if a 4 time champion with the 3rd highest win count gets a ban for persistent incompetent/dangerous driving? It must be on the FIA's minds.


He's also on about his third final warning regarding his general conduct anyway.


They ain't gonna ban the guy from a race let's face it, it simply won't happen. They've had plenty of cause to and haven't so he won't be getting any more penalty points if avoidable, if they didn't ban him after Baku 2017 they won't ban him for a accident


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:30 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not precisely sure how unpopular this one will be, but...

Vettel should have had a race ban by now, and the only reason he hasn't is that the FIA is reluctant to give him penalty points for fear of just that outcome.

I agree. As I wrote on the race thread, Grosjean was handed a ban for less than what Vettel has done over the past 18 months. Also it's clear he shows no remorse and takes no responsibility for his actions, so some level of punishment is needed for him to perhaps actually reflect on what he is doing wrong.

How bad does it look for the sport if a 4 time champion with the 3rd highest win count gets a ban for persistent incompetent/dangerous driving? It must be on the FIA's minds.


He's also on about his third final warning regarding his general conduct anyway.


They ain't gonna ban the guy from a race let's face it, it simply won't happen. They've had plenty of cause to and haven't so he won't be getting any more penalty points if avoidable, if they didn't ban him after Baku 2017 they won't ban him for a accident

Why talk in such absolutes? Of course the will ban him if they have no other choice, which I think you also meant by the "if avoidable" part!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:37 am 
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Covalent wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not precisely sure how unpopular this one will be, but...

Vettel should have had a race ban by now, and the only reason he hasn't is that the FIA is reluctant to give him penalty points for fear of just that outcome.

I agree. As I wrote on the race thread, Grosjean was handed a ban for less than what Vettel has done over the past 18 months. Also it's clear he shows no remorse and takes no responsibility for his actions, so some level of punishment is needed for him to perhaps actually reflect on what he is doing wrong.

How bad does it look for the sport if a 4 time champion with the 3rd highest win count gets a ban for persistent incompetent/dangerous driving? It must be on the FIA's minds.


He's also on about his third final warning regarding his general conduct anyway.


They ain't gonna ban the guy from a race let's face it, it simply won't happen. They've had plenty of cause to and haven't so he won't be getting any more penalty points if avoidable, if they didn't ban him after Baku 2017 they won't ban him for a accident

Why talk in such absolutes? Of course the will ban him if they have no other choice, which I think you also meant by the "if avoidable" part!


I'm not taking in absolutes, I said if avoidable. As in at this point it's obvious they won't give him penalty points to get him a race ban for regular crashes only if he does something absolutely mental (I mean what is more warranted for a race ban than delibaretly crashing your car into someone, for.which he didn't get banned or black flagged) so it's obvious to.me they're actively going to avoid giving him points now, which is wrong, and I say that because I don't see what other legitmate reason they could possibly have for not giving him a penalty for Brazil.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:45 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I agree. As I wrote on the race thread, Grosjean was handed a ban for less than what Vettel has done over the past 18 months. Also it's clear he shows no remorse and takes no responsibility for his actions, so some level of punishment is needed for him to perhaps actually reflect on what he is doing wrong.

How bad does it look for the sport if a 4 time champion with the 3rd highest win count gets a ban for persistent incompetent/dangerous driving? It must be on the FIA's minds.


He's also on about his third final warning regarding his general conduct anyway.


They ain't gonna ban the guy from a race let's face it, it simply won't happen. They've had plenty of cause to and haven't so he won't be getting any more penalty points if avoidable, if they didn't ban him after Baku 2017 they won't ban him for a accident

Why talk in such absolutes? Of course the will ban him if they have no other choice, which I think you also meant by the "if avoidable" part!


I'm not taking in absolutes, I said if avoidable. As in at this point it's obvious they won't give him penalty points to get him a race ban for regular crashes only if he does something absolutely mental (I mean what is more warranted for a race ban than delibaretly crashing your car into someone, for.which he didn't get banned or black flagged) so it's obvious to.me they're actively going to avoid giving him points now, which is wrong, and I say that because I don't see what other legitmate reason they could possibly have for not giving him a penalty for Brazil.

You also said "it simply won't happen".

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:54 am 
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Covalent wrote:
You also said "it simply won't happen".


I also said if avoidable. If they have any way to avoid it they will. He will need to completely take someone out intentionally to get a ban, which I think simply won't happen (I'm sure you agree with that, unless you think vettel would do it)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:41 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not precisely sure how unpopular this one will be, but...

Vettel should have had a race ban by now, and the only reason he hasn't is that the FIA is reluctant to give him penalty points for fear of just that outcome.

I agree. As I wrote on the race thread, Grosjean was handed a ban for less than what Vettel has done over the past 18 months. Also it's clear he shows no remorse and takes no responsibility for his actions, so some level of punishment is needed for him to perhaps actually reflect on what he is doing wrong.

How bad does it look for the sport if a 4 time champion with the 3rd highest win count gets a ban for persistent incompetent/dangerous driving? It must be on the FIA's minds.


He's also on about his third final warning regarding his general conduct anyway.


They ain't gonna ban the guy from a race let's face it, it simply won't happen. They've had plenty of cause to and haven't so he won't be getting any more penalty points if avoidable, if they didn't ban him after Baku 2017 they won't ban him for a accident


Indeed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:29 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
They ain't gonna ban the guy from a race let's face it, it simply won't happen. They've had plenty of cause to and haven't so he won't be getting any more penalty points if avoidable, if they didn't ban him after Baku 2017 they won't ban him for a accident

Indeed.

Sadly, probably true. Baku was worth a race ban all on its own.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:53 am 
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I agree that Vettel should have had a race ban by now, but he won't get one.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:53 am 
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Keke Rosberg was the third best driver of the 1980s decade

The top two are obvious, Senna and Prost. After that, people usually pick either Mansell or Piquet. In my opinion, Rosberg was better than both of them.

1. Keke’s 1982 title is often attributed to luck. I think that the FW08 is quite conceivably the worst car to ever win a WDC. In that sense, his championship is quite extraordinary and impressive.

2. Both Mansell and Piquet spent at least 4 years in the outright fastest car on the grid. Piquet had his early Brabham cars, as well as the 86-87 Williams. Mansell drove the same Williams, as well as those from 91-92. Keke never spent a single season in the best car.

3. Rosberg beat Mansell quite convincingly when they were teammates in 1985. He finished ahead on points, and the table flattered Mansell. Rosberg was ahead of Mansell before a racing incident with Senna in Brands Hatch, and he was miles faster than Mansell in South Africa but he slipped on some oil. On pure pace, it wasn’t a contest. Rosberg was a tier above.

I genuinely believe that if peak Rosberg drove the Williams cars that Mansell did (86, 87, 91, 92) he would have won 3 WDC and 40 races.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:16 am 
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A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:56 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!


I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!

I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.

Yeah, I wouldn't call the 1989 Ferrari a midfield car, and the 1990 car was an outright title challenger. He was beaten by his teammate quite soundly in 1990, but it wasn't a midfield car at all.

It's more the size of the gap between him and the best of the era for me. People seem to rate him close behind Prost, whereas I see a pretty huge gap. It seems to be a popular contention that Mansell had the speed of Prost but lacked in other areas, whereas I see Mansell as being basically a complete second tier driver who needed a dominant car to finally win a title. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top ten all time.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:20 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!


I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.

Rosberg won a title with a much worse car than Mansell did, and he beat Mansell when they were teammates in 1985, yet Rosberg is rated nowhere near the top 20.

Does that make Mansell overrated or Rosberg underrated?

Probably a bit of both.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:42 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!


I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.

Rosberg won a title with a much worse car than Mansell did, and he beat Mansell when they were teammates in 1985, yet Rosberg is rated nowhere near the top 20.

Does that make Mansell overrated or Rosberg underrated?

Probably a bit of both.


Possibly. I think you also have to remember that when people construct a list of "greatest" success generally plays a part as well as impact on the sport.

Mansell had a lot more of both than Rosberg. Doesn't mean he was actually better though. If you see what I mean.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!


I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.

Rosberg won a title with a much worse car than Mansell did, and he beat Mansell when they were teammates in 1985, yet Rosberg is rated nowhere near the top 20.

Does that make Mansell overrated or Rosberg underrated?

Probably a bit of both.


Possibly. I think you also have to remember that when people construct a list of "greatest" success generally plays a part as well as impact on the sport.

Mansell had a lot more of both than Rosberg. Doesn't mean he was actually better though. If you see what I mean.

Rosberg made a bad career decision when he left Williams for McLaren.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:36 pm 
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For some perspectives pertaining to the very debate going on here I would direct everyone to a very interesting thread on the autosport forums: "https://forums.autosport.com/topic/211502-our-nige/". In the later pages of that thread especially, they get into the question of Mansell's relative stature amongst the eighties greats and why it took so long for him to start winning grand prix/attain conspicuous success.

It's the prevailing opinion of some of those posters that like Hakkinen in a way with that win at the end of '97, Mansell needed to be 'fleshed' (to use the hunting term) with the two wins at the end of '85 in order to really come into his own and feel a sense of his own powers. Keke racing against Mansell in an '87 Williams is a whole different proposition to their earlier time together just as it would be for someone racing in the same team with Hakkinen in '98 say instead of in '95. Now you could say with justice that its a demerit for both of them that the fire had to be lit in them circumstantially whereas the rest of their august company had it from the beginning. But I think it's true that they became qualitatively different competitors at a certain stage of their F1 careers than they had been before.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Something I've thought for a long time. Put him in a midfield car and see what happens, oh yeah, Ferrari 1989-1990!


I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.

Rosberg won a title with a much worse car than Mansell did, and he beat Mansell when they were teammates in 1985, yet Rosberg is rated nowhere near the top 20.

Does that make Mansell overrated or Rosberg underrated?

Probably a bit of both.


Possibly. I think you also have to remember that when people construct a list of "greatest" success generally plays a part as well as impact on the sport.

Mansell had a lot more of both than Rosberg. Doesn't mean he was actually better though. If you see what I mean.

Rosberg made a bad career decision when he left Williams for McLaren.
That's a matter of perspective - opinion if you like, but definitely perspective. A few years ago I read or heard that Keke said something along the lines of "I thought I was fast, until I met Alain Prost". To me, that means looking the truth squarely in the eye and living with the consequence.
I hoped at the time that he would go to one of the other top teams and continue his career, but I respect him immensely for putting it that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:07 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I'm confused. He won races in both 89 and 90 and the Ferrari wasn't a midfield car?

Mansell overrated, hmmm.... Not as good as Prost but as good as Piquet, better than Berger or Patrese. Wouldn't that make where he's rated about right? Usually between 10-20 of all time.

Rosberg won a title with a much worse car than Mansell did, and he beat Mansell when they were teammates in 1985, yet Rosberg is rated nowhere near the top 20.

Does that make Mansell overrated or Rosberg underrated?

Probably a bit of both.


Possibly. I think you also have to remember that when people construct a list of "greatest" success generally plays a part as well as impact on the sport.

Mansell had a lot more of both than Rosberg. Doesn't mean he was actually better though. If you see what I mean.

Rosberg made a bad career decision when he left Williams for McLaren.
That's a matter of perspective - opinion if you like, but definitely perspective. A few years ago I read or heard that Keke said something along the lines of "I thought I was fast, until I met Alain Prost". To me, that means looking the truth squarely in the eye and living with the consequence.
I hoped at the time that he would go to one of the other top teams and continue his career, but I respect him immensely for putting it that way.

It's as I said then, if he had stayed at Williams he probably would have won 1 or 2 more titles, instead he went to McLaren and the year after he retired.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


I think that tag belongs to Gilles Villeneuve. There are similarities between Nige and Gilles in that perhaps certain standout performances have led to them seeming better than their overall performances.

Gilles gets romanticised a fair bit because of his tragic and untimely death, along with his box office driving style. He missed out on the title in one year he had the opportunity to really go for it in 79.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:07 pm 
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LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:08 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A bold call, which leads me onto...

Mansell is quite possibly the most overrated F1 driver of all time.


I think that tag belongs to Gilles Villeneuve. There are similarities between Nige and Gilles in that perhaps certain standout performances have led to them seeming better than their overall performances.

Gilles gets romanticised a fair bit because of his tragic and untimely death, along with his box office driving style. He missed out on the title in one year he had the opportunity to really go for it in 79.

I thought that was a case of Villenueve adhering to team orders?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:09 am 
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Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?

I'm trying to work out why that might be viewed as an unpopular opinion? :?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?

I'm trying to work out why that might be viewed as an unpopular opinion? :?

I don't suppose it would be popular with Vettel fans. Aside from that, no idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?


pokerman wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?

I'm trying to work out why that might be viewed as an unpopular opinion? :?


I, for one, would enjoy the heck out of that!! I think Daniel might bring out the of the best in Charles.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:20 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?


pokerman wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?

I'm trying to work out why that might be viewed as an unpopular opinion? :?


I, for one, would enjoy the heck out of that!! I think Daniel might bring out the of the best in Charles.

Indeed and it's something that could reasonably happen.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
LeClerk and Ricciardo at Ferrari in 2021?

I'm trying to work out why that might be viewed as an unpopular opinion? :?


Wouldn't be very popular with Vettel! :uhoh:


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