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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:12 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I still say that Mercedes has the faster race car, and thats been the case over the last few races too but.... the sections of the track where the Mercedes is faster - they can't do anything about being behind the Ferrari - where the overtaking opportunities are..... the Ferrari is faster and can defend easily. Track position is key as that Ferrari is a hard car to overtake, because as you say it launches well of the corner, energy deploys well and its quick in a straight line.

Being faster through some of the corners doesn't mean much when you are still slower in ultimate lap time and way behind on the straights (the places where overtaking happens). Suggesting that Mercedes are faster in the race is really just saying that they are generally better with tire wear. That can be a significant advantage but only if you can get into clean air; which Mercedes cannot at the moment.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:19 pm 
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In clean air, I still think Mercedes could complete a full race distance quicker than the Ferrari could.

However the Ferrari seems to have the faster ultimate pace, and is faster in the right places. Without getting that track position the Mercedes is the 2nd best in the race. The delta to the Ferrari is not enough to see an easy overtake on race pace so it needs to be a mistake or better strategy. Mercs strategy calls have been poor lately.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:22 pm 
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There's almost shades of 2009 here where Brawn got the jump on the field in the 1st half of the season but by the 2nd half the pendulum had swung to where RB were pretty much the class of the field, & we know how the next 4 years turned out after that.

After Hungary, entering the Summer break, that Ferrari was pretty much the 2nd, &, depending on the track, sometimes the 3rd best car. Come Spa, the 1st race after the Summer break however, the Ferrari had morphed into an absolute beast & now seems to be comfortably the class of the field on any track.

Mercedes seem to have no answer &, I guess looking forward to 2020, come across as being genuinely concerned by the rate of development of the Ferrari. RB just seem to be pretty much in the same position with Honda as they were with Renault, & from certain aspects, some could argue possibly worse off this year when compared to last.

Things as they stand are looking very, very good for Ferrari in 2020. They've go the best car & the best driver pairing on the grid. If they can carry this forward into next year it wouldn't surprise me to see Vettel bag championship #5, although i'd be even less surprised to see Leclerc bag championship # 1.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:22 am 
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Just thinking out loud here and I may not have a proper understanding of this bit is this possible.

Sandman's post, this thread (Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:45 pm) states that it is probably the ERS, MGU-H and MGU-K that is providing the recently found increase in performance. I was under the impression that the energy from these units was limited by regulations or has that changed? Jezza has noted that this occurred after the summer break and evidenced at Spa. That is a fast turnaround so it would make sense that the breakthrough is electronic.

The ERS is the only area that could provide such a rapid quota of power. So does the Ferrari engine perhaps charge and discharge faster than other ERS units whilst never exceeding the upper limit. Alternatively is the Storage unit (Batteries or supercapacitors) the key in its ability to accept and discharge the energy from the ERS.

If the improvement is electronic then it might happen quickly.

But here is the crunch, if racing costs are capped at $175 million then if you dont have it soon you wouldn't be able to get it at all because the money wouldn't be there to fund it.

So now someone who is much more engineering orientated than can put me straight.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:27 pm 
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Red Bull falling further and further behind. Shameful.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Max Verstappen will be a worried man. At the summer break Red Bull looked like they would be the main competition to Mercedes throughout the remainder of the season. Spa and Monza were always going to be strong for Ferrari, but Red Bull must have expected to challenge for the win in Singapore.

Red Bull currently look a distant third best. I imagine they weren't exactly pushing too hard in Sochi, If however they are not challenging for the win in Suzuka or Mexico then some serious soul searching might be required.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


I completely agree but its clear that Vettel does not, he still believes Mercedes are faster, here is what he said after the race, "The positive today is that the car is faster. On raw race pace Mercedes have the edge, but today should give them a headache."

I am beginning to think it is part of an excuse mechanism to explain their lack of recent success.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


I completely agree but its clear that Vettel does not, he still believes Mercedes are faster, here is what he said after the race, "The positive today is that the car is faster. On raw race pace Mercedes have the edge, but today should give them a headache."

I am beginning to think it is part of an excuse mechanism to explain their lack of recent success.

The truth is that Vettel has always said that at Ferrari no matter how strong the car has been. Even during that stretch where Ferrari were easily faster last year Vettel would make comments like that. Commentary is irrelevant. What matters is what is actually happening and the bottom line is that all signs point to Ferrari simply having the best car right now.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


I completely agree but its clear that Vettel does not, he still believes Mercedes are faster, here is what he said after the race, "The positive today is that the car is faster. On raw race pace Mercedes have the edge, but today should give them a headache."

I am beginning to think it is part of an excuse mechanism to explain their lack of recent success.

The truth is that Vettel has always said that at Ferrari no matter how strong the car has been. Even during that stretch where Ferrari were easily faster last year Vettel would make comments like that. Commentary is irrelevant. What matters is what is actually happening and the bottom line is that all signs point to Ferrari simply having the best car right now.


Wolf is the opposite to that, saying they won with the slower car today. Not surprising either way.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:56 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


I completely agree but its clear that Vettel does not, he still believes Mercedes are faster, here is what he said after the race, "The positive today is that the car is faster. On raw race pace Mercedes have the edge, but today should give them a headache."

I am beginning to think it is part of an excuse mechanism to explain their lack of recent success.

The truth is that Vettel has always said that at Ferrari no matter how strong the car has been. Even during that stretch where Ferrari were easily faster last year Vettel would make comments like that. Commentary is irrelevant. What matters is what is actually happening and the bottom line is that all signs point to Ferrari simply having the best car right now.


Wolf is the opposite to that, saying they won with the slower car today. Not surprising either way.

Wolf will never say that Mercedes were slower in a race if they were faster. He will say that they expect to be slower going into a race sometimes and then have them turn out to be easily quicker though.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:11 pm 
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The best sectors from FP3 at Russia suggested Ferrari had an advantage of ~5 tenths (I think it was a bit more). This translated into qualifying and had Leclerc not left time on the table in S3 on his second lap he might have crushed for pole by about 7 tenths.

In the race the pace was quite equal, but Hamilton probably flatters the Mercedes in this instance. I reckon Ferrari probably had a tenth.

Overall, a Ferrari weekend.


Red Bull... please wake up.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:03 am 
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The Merc has basically been unchanged since Germany. Finally a big upgrade package coming for Suzuka I hear. If that does not vault them back to the top then Ferrari should be the favorite for the remaining races. Also the fact that Merc has not worked hard to develop the car means that they are going full beans on the 2020 edition. I am expecting an absolute monster of a car from Merc in 2020.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:26 am 
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I reckon that Merc are still not using the most powerful mode in qualifying since the various spec 3 failures, which makes the gap between them and Ferrari in terms of power in qualifying appear even bigger. Also, it was rumoured a month or two back that the 2020 PU prototype from Merc will produce the biggest performance gain seen from them since 2014.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:59 am 
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Invade wrote:
I reckon that Merc are still not using the most powerful mode in qualifying since the various spec 3 failures, which makes the gap between them and Ferrari in terms of power in qualifying appear even bigger. Also, it was rumoured a month or two back that the 2020 PU prototype from Merc will produce the biggest performance gain seen from them since 2014.


Hadn't heard about that Invade, interesting, do you have any info on the spec 3 failures and how they might be resolving them? Of course even if Mercedes make a big jump it is only an improvement if Ferrari fail to advance their car. Early in the season it was postulated that Ferrari had chosen a development route that was finite and the Mercedes strategy was more flexible. If Ferrari are close to the end of that cul de sac then they will have a completely different car for 2020 so that will be a complete unknown package. Interesting times ahead.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:17 am 
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A Dieter Rencken source suggesting that Ferrari are using a trick in the intercooler to recreate the banned 'oil burn'.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:54 am 
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kleefton wrote:
The Merc has basically been unchanged since Germany. Finally a big upgrade package coming for Suzuka I hear. If that does not vault them back to the top then Ferrari should be the favorite for the remaining races. Also the fact that Merc has not worked hard to develop the car means that they are going full beans on the 2020 edition. I am expecting an absolute monster of a car from Merc in 2020.

In contrast, Ferrari seem to have seized working in this year's car. I expect a more balanced end of the year


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:59 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
A Dieter Rencken source suggesting that Ferrari are using a trick in the intercooler to recreate the banned 'oil burn'.


Anymore on that, the intercooler is a heat exchanger essentially so is the oil being burnt elsewhere then that heat energy being fed to the MGU-H?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:16 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
A Dieter Rencken source suggesting that Ferrari are using a trick in the intercooler to recreate the banned 'oil burn'.


Anymore on that, the intercooler is a heat exchanger essentially so is the oil being burnt elsewhere then that heat energy being fed to the MGU-H?


Iv'e no idea what an intercooler even is. :lol: But something along the lines of its not regulated, so its being allowed to leak into the combustion chamber? Not even sure that makes sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:19 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
A Dieter Rencken source suggesting that Ferrari are using a trick in the intercooler to recreate the banned 'oil burn'.


Anymore on that, the intercooler is a heat exchanger essentially so is the oil being burnt elsewhere then that heat energy being fed to the MGU-H?


Iv'e no idea what an intercooler even is. :lol: But something along the lines of its not regulated, so its being allowed to leak into the combustion chamber? Not even sure that makes sense.


Brilliant answer :lol: love the honesty, lets wait till an engineer comes along, I've no idea how the oil burning issue got resolved.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:19 am 
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The FIA introduced rules about burning oil at the beginning of the season limiting the amount of oil consumed per 100km to 0.6L If it were a wrinkle down those lines you could see that a fast qualification lap could be fitted in to that regime but for the whole race?

Do Ferrari have the same pace all through the race, I.e. does the oil run out? How does the intercooler fit in to all this? I'm just guessing really.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:53 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Max Verstappen will be a worried man. At the summer break Red Bull looked like they would be the main competition to Mercedes throughout the remainder of the season. Spa and Monza were always going to be strong for Ferrari, but Red Bull must have expected to challenge for the win in Singapore.

Red Bull currently look a distant third best. I imagine they weren't exactly pushing too hard in Sochi, If however they are not challenging for the win in Suzuka or Mexico then some serious soul searching might be required.


Verstappen has two reasons to get worried. Red Bull are nowhere. Traditionally they get stronger as the season progresses, but they're even further than ever after the break.

Reason 2 he needs to be worried is that Leclerc is suddenly the new boss in town. Until Austria, Verstappen was the clear best driver of the next generation. And now Leclerc is getting all the limelight. No-one even mentions Verstappen anymore.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
The Merc has basically been unchanged since Germany. Finally a big upgrade package coming for Suzuka I hear. If that does not vault them back to the top then Ferrari should be the favorite for the remaining races. Also the fact that Merc has not worked hard to develop the car means that they are going full beans on the 2020 edition. I am expecting an absolute monster of a car from Merc in 2020.

In contrast, Ferrari seem to have seized working in this year's car. I expect a more balanced end of the year


You mean ceased? But anyway, Merc still has the head start in next year's car development. Ferrari's saving grace might be the PU though, because apparently noone really know how they are doing it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:01 pm 
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In an effort to find out why Ferrari are so quick I did a bit of searching online, prompted by shoot999's reading. Here are some theories as to how they may be able to do it courtesy of this article in essentially sports.com.

1) At Monza they were 9/10ths faster and even with DRS open on the straight they were only able to catch up 2m on the straights. This is attributed to an extra 40 kilowatts, just under 55 hp.
"However, one theory is that the Ferrari needs a slow lap to build up to that power boost. This is because, it has been seen in specific phases, like in qualifying, the race start and the safety car restarts.
Though it is worth noting that this extra power is not available at Ferrari’s beck and call. Sebastian Vettel and Charles LeClerc have to be very strategic in their implementation of the power.

2) According to Auto Motor und Sport, another theory is that under certain conditions Ferrari is able to feed 160 instead of 120 kilowatts from the battery into the system.
Secondly, during the slow lap, it takes place before activating fuel between the flow rate metering point and the high pressure pump. This move injects more fuel in the Q3 rounds than allowed."

3) The third theory is that the air collector (plenum) is cooled in front of the engine with oil and the engineers of this oil branch off a bit for combustion.
This would tie in with shoot999 above post in that perhaps they are using oil in the intercooler to chill the air before combustion and the oil 'leaks' from the radiator into the air prior to combustion.

This oil would not be part of the FIA allowance as it is a separate coolant and wouldn't be monitored, presumably it wouldn't be checked for additives to aid combustion either.

All this is speculation, and before being accused by the Ferrari fans of saying they are cheating all the theories are 'work arounds' rather than illegal practices.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:17 pm 
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There is a legal way to get more MGU-K usage that would also fit with the charging profile we've seen - but it would take an engineering marvel to have pulled it off.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no limit on how much the MGU-K can be used during a lap. It can be used constantly. There is only a limit on how much energy it can draw from the battery, or put back into the battery. This is the only limit defined in the regulations about the ERS system.

The car can power the MGU-H unlimited from the battery, it can charge the battery unlimited from the MGU-H. It can also have unlimited energy transfer directly between the two MGUs. So the MGU-H can provide the MGU-K with unlimited power.

So, how does this help someone wanting to exploit the legal loophole. Well, quite simply, when you want to give the MGU-K more boost than the limit allows, power it directly from the MGU-H. Easy! Except of course it's not that simple, the MGU-H is normally receiving load from the turbo pressure and my assumption is that this is no where near what they get from the kinetic energy of the car. But never mind, there is a nice big battery there. They can spin the H up from that. Now - I suspect that if they were powering the H from the battery at the same time they were powering the K from the H, the FIA would count this as directly powering the K (although I'm not privy to the technical clarfiications on this matter) - but assuming they are - this is where the techical wizardry would have to come in.

The MGU-H would effectively have to be designed like a flywheel, so it would be quite heavy and spin fast. This would make it impede the exhaust gases more, but that's ok, - maybe a clutch could be fitted (I don't think the regs allow this, but if they do this is a bonus) however as the H can be spun up with the battery it can just help with the rotation.

Of course, now we are using a lot more energy from the battery, and that has a limited supply, and we're not topping it up from the H as much anymore and there's a limit on what it can receive from the K. But never mind. We can just do the whole thing in reverse when braking. This would require a lot of clever clever electronics to manage all this, for example, it could quickly switch the K between charging the battery and spooling up the H under braking, and then swithcing the H from receiving power from the K to charging the battery at the same time.

This is going to stress the systems a lot more, particularly the control electronics and the MGU-K. But Ferrari have had a more unreliable control electronics system than the other engine manufacturers and what failed on Vettel's car this weekend?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Alien, very ingenious, if I understand it then the MGU-H would simply need to have a heavy turbine to store the energy in rotational momentum. Your idea does require the FIA to keep the regs as they are while it is developed. I just hope they oblige for your sake.

I'm not sure that that is what Ferrari have in their car at present but the fact that it takes a slow lap to build up energy does imply there is something going on with the MGU-K and MGU-H.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:42 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


IMHO. Mercedes would definitely pull a gap, never be in DRS range and finish much ahead of Ferrari if they were to run on clear air. Something like what Vettel did to Charles in Russia. In last few races Ferrari barely finished 0.9secs ahead in SPA and 0.8sec in Monza. Singapore it is difficult to say as driver at front control the pace. In Russia Ferrari looked little better I thought but we do not know as they barely used the medium tyres. I think soft had some decent advantage over mediums.

Ferrari definitely has good advantage in qualifying and I think they must start ahead to have a chance in the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:31 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Alien, very ingenious, if I understand it then the MGU-H would simply need to have a heavy turbine to store the energy in rotational momentum. Your idea does require the FIA to keep the regs as they are while it is developed. I just hope they oblige for your sake.

I'm not sure that that is what Ferrari have in their car at present but the fact that it takes a slow lap to build up energy does imply there is something going on with the MGU-K and MGU-H.

It has to be MGU-K related, simply because there is a limit on how much power can be extracted from the ICE, dictated by the fuel flow.

The MGU-K added an extra 160bhp to the output - and under normal circumstances they are limited to the 4MJ of energy per lap - unless they top it up from the H. Unless they are out right cheating (by delivering more power than the 4MJ limit from the battery) it means the only way they can do it is from the MGU-H. What I have proposed would be legal, but there may be another way I have no considered to make this work. Maybe they have found a way to deliver more pressure into their exhaust system and consequently work the H even harder than just from exhaust gases. But I suspect it is coming from the battery, hence why they can't use it all race long and have to recharge it between laps. Interestingly though, races with high rpm may actually benefit this system, because the MGU-H is usually tuned to require power at low rpm, but have excess power at high RPM. That would also fit with the acceleration profile we saw at Monza when Leclerc would pull away from Hamilton as if he had DRS once they reached speeds over 300km/h.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:13 pm 
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Remembering that Ferrari are the only team to use a 2 battery system, one for the MGU-H and one for the MGU-K is it possible to store energy in a capacitor bank without exceeding the 4MJ limit?

Just read on the Russian GP thread the full transcript. When Leclerc asks for more power to get past Bottas he is told "K1 plus available." At the start of the race he is instructed to and at restart he is told "K2 off" Are they refering to the two batteries I wonder K1 plus being the extra boost Hamilton calls 'Jet mode' ?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:37 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Ferrari have surprisingly made huge progress. Their car is not struggling in the corner too much and they obviously have good advantage in party mode so in qualifying they are going to be very strong. Although Mercedes was faster in the race. Ferrari can control the pace starting up the grid. RBR are going to struggle to make it into row 2 and they do not have tyre advantage as well in the race. Shell has given Ferrari some 0.5sec boost couple of times in the past few years. So hopefully the new fuel will give RBR slight boost from Suzuka onwards.

Were they? I don't think so. During the first stint, Ferrari gapped Mercedes with ease. Hamilton hung relatively close but Bottas was completely abandoned during that first stint. He was 12 seconds behind Vettel before the end of the stint. Okay they were not on the same tires but Valteri was never quicker than the Ferraris throughout that whole first stint and even Hamilton never did more than match them at any point in the stint. During the final stint when they were on the same tire, it was clear that Bottas was holding Charles up. I don't see any evidence that Mercedes had the faster race car. I think that's just an assumption based on past performance. If you look at the last 2 races, there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari are not the fastest car both on Saturdays and Sundays; light fuel or full tank.


IMHO. Mercedes would definitely pull a gap, never be in DRS range and finish much ahead of Ferrari if they were to run on clear air. Something like what Vettel did to Charles in Russia. In last few races Ferrari barely finished 0.9secs ahead in SPA and 0.8sec in Monza. Singapore it is difficult to say as driver at front control the pace. In Russia Ferrari looked little better I thought but we do not know as they barely used the medium tyres. I think soft had some decent advantage over mediums.

Ferrari definitely has good advantage in qualifying and I think they must start ahead to have a chance in the race.

You've missed the plot here. Ferrari had a major upgrade arrive in Singapore. Yes, in both Spa and Monza Hamilton looked to have more pace during the race than Charles but from Singapore on, that simply hasn't been the case. There is no evidence from either Singapore or Russia that Ferrari were slower during the race and their advantage over a single lap has become larger. Again, with both Bottas and Leclerc on relatively fresh soft tires, it's obvious that Valteri was just holding Charles up during that last stint and that Charles could have gapped him had he found a way by.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:26 am 
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Nobody has a sniff of an answer to Ferrari power. Not much time now to figure things out before 2021 hits.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:39 am 
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I have a strong feeling that Ferrari will be the strongest package not just next year, but for a while given the massive power advantage they have. As such, the most critical storyline may well end up being who can be in the ascendency at Ferrari between Vettel and Leclerc. Of course, it's early days to make such a prediction but hey - that's mine.

Very spicy times ahead, I'm sure, as Mercedes will be dogged no matter what.

As for Red Bull, it's hard to be convinced by them... and Max probably won't be able to make enough of a difference.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:48 am 
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Invade wrote:
I have a strong feeling that Ferrari will be the strongest package not just next year, but for a while given the massive power advantage they have. As such, the most critical storyline may well end up being who can be in the ascendency at Ferrari between Vettel and Leclerc. Of course, it's early days to make such a prediction but hey - that's mine.

Very spicy times ahead, I'm sure, as Mercedes will be dogged no matter what.

As for Red Bull, it's hard to be convinced by them... and Max probably won't be able to make enough of a difference.

I do think that 2020 is shaping up nicely (at least on the surface). Of course you never really know what Mercedes have up their sleeves with next year's car. They have likely shifted resources towards it from very early this year and they are really only suffering in terms of engine performance relative to Ferrari. I think the engine upgrade that didn't work out well for them was a major setback. Merc have a LOT of work to do in the PU department now.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:30 am 
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Invade wrote:
I have a strong feeling that Ferrari will be the strongest package not just next year, but for a while given the massive power advantage they have. As such, the most critical storyline may well end up being who can be in the ascendency at Ferrari between Vettel and Leclerc. Of course, it's early days to make such a prediction but hey - that's mine.

Very spicy times ahead, I'm sure, as Mercedes will be dogged no matter what.

As for Red Bull, it's hard to be convinced by them... and Max probably won't be able to make enough of a difference.


Ferrari only chance is to lock first row and with clever strategy protect the P1. Mercedes IMO has been fastest car through out this year including Monza, SPA. Ferrari real weapon is definitely the qualifying now that they have overtaken RBR in corners as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:38 pm 
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This season feels really strange to me in that if Ferrari keep being the fastest car until the season's end, then over the whole of the season wouldn't they have had the best car overall?

I mean that would be pretty much the final 9 races in a row where they would be fastest, plus they were fastest at at least 2 events in the first half of the season. I know in the race they sometimes struggled but track position is important and gives you a good chance of winning if you can start ahead.

Yet despite this, Mercedes are winning the championships super early yet again with multiple races to go and huge points leads. Very frustrating when you want to see theoretical competitiveness play out into actual competitiveness in terms of points.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:02 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
This season feels really strange to me in that if Ferrari keep being the fastest car until the season's end, then over the whole of the season wouldn't they have had the best car overall?

I mean that would be pretty much the final 9 races in a row where they would be fastest, plus they were fastest at at least 2 events in the first half of the season. I know in the race they sometimes struggled but track position is important and gives you a good chance of winning if you can start ahead.

Yet despite this, Mercedes are winning the championships super early yet again with multiple races to go and huge points leads. Very frustrating when you want to see theoretical competitiveness play out into actual competitiveness in terms of points.


I don't think Ferrari have been faster overall anywhere really, in spite of their recent run of success - they are faster in qualy due to some engine magic settings, but in race pace they're almost always slower (except perhaps Russia).

One-trick-pony at this point - qualify ahead of the Mercs and maintain track position through strategy, given that their straight-line speed makes them very difficult to overtake.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:49 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
This season feels really strange to me in that if Ferrari keep being the fastest car until the season's end, then over the whole of the season wouldn't they have had the best car overall?

I mean that would be pretty much the final 9 races in a row where they would be fastest, plus they were fastest at at least 2 events in the first half of the season. I know in the race they sometimes struggled but track position is important and gives you a good chance of winning if you can start ahead.

Yet despite this, Mercedes are winning the championships super early yet again with multiple races to go and huge points leads. Very frustrating when you want to see theoretical competitiveness play out into actual competitiveness in terms of points.


I don't think Ferrari have been faster overall anywhere really, in spite of their recent run of success - they are faster in qualy due to some engine magic settings, but in race pace they're almost always slower (except perhaps Russia).

One-trick-pony at this point - qualify ahead of the Mercs and maintain track position through strategy, given that their straight-line speed makes them very difficult to overtake.


Well there was Bahrain, Canada and Austria where they were just plain faster, (Hamilton making up the difference in Canada and Max cheating coupled with Ferrari pitting early in Austria).

And being fastest in qualifying is what I mean by 'fastest', as qualifying is more important than races usually.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Out of your list I would say only Bahrain is where Ferrari was faster - HAM also made mistakes in Canada but made the time back up quickly, and VET couldn't shake him off. Austria they were faster than Merc, but not the RBR, irrespective of how VER overtook LEC.

Although it's moot, as we seem to define "fastest" differently, so we're unlikely to agree on this point.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:21 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
This season feels really strange to me in that if Ferrari keep being the fastest car until the season's end, then over the whole of the season wouldn't they have had the best car overall?

I mean that would be pretty much the final 9 races in a row where they would be fastest, plus they were fastest at at least 2 events in the first half of the season. I know in the race they sometimes struggled but track position is important and gives you a good chance of winning if you can start ahead.

Yet despite this, Mercedes are winning the championships super early yet again with multiple races to go and huge points leads. Very frustrating when you want to see theoretical competitiveness play out into actual competitiveness in terms of points.


I don't think Ferrari have been faster overall anywhere really, in spite of their recent run of success - they are faster in qualy due to some engine magic settings, but in race pace they're almost always slower (except perhaps Russia).

One-trick-pony at this point - qualify ahead of the Mercs and maintain track position through strategy, given that their straight-line speed makes them very difficult to overtake.

You've got it wrong here. Ferrari are not faster during qualifying because of some qualifying engine setting that they cannot use during the race. They do have one of those but so do the other teams. Ferrari has the same engine advantage during the race as they do in qualifying. The thing that hurts them during races is the tires. They are worse on tires relative to Mercedes most of the time. This is why they often have worse "race pace". I put that in quotes because it's a misleading term in this context. Ferrari are not actually slower during the races; their tires just go off sooner.

There have been several races where Ferrari had the better race pace too though. Races like Bahrain, Austria, Singapore and Russia were times where there was certainly no advantage to Mercedes during the race.

It's an interesting year to look at. By time we get to the end of the season; Ferrari will have had the edge in outright pace probably more often than not but the race pace advantage will go to Merc more convincingly. I think that errors and blunders, both from the drivers and the strategists, have butchered this season for Ferrari.


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