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 Post subject: Vettel's 4 Championships
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:41 pm 
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Hi all,

As you see from my username I am fan of Hamilton (but not a fanboy) and I want to say this is NOT a Ham vs Vet debate AT ALL.

I'm focusing on Vettel's year ahead with Leclerc. There is a lot of talk (and a poll on this forum) about how they will both perform against each other. IF, IF Leclerc beats Vettel (even if it's a small margin), will people question Vettel's worth as a World Champion? Especially 4x WDC?

Yes, he's an incredible driver who definitely deserves our respect.

However, with Daniel beating him at Red Bull when he was semi-raw and if Leclerc does the same, semi-raw, then doesn't this devalue Vettel's talent/reputation?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:01 pm 
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It would presumably dent his reputation, but I don't see why it would cause people to question his 4x WDC. He still went out and won those titles and at times had to show great strength in coming back from behind. I don't think anyone can take that away from him, no matter what happens after.

It also depends on how you view Leclerc. Max beat Ric and, while Ric's reputation has suffered it hasn't dropped all that much tbh. And that's because many view Max as the Next Best Thing.

I think most people would agree that Vettel is very fast; it's generally his temeperament that people question. Doubt that would change if Leclerc beat him


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Here is a thread destined to end poorly no matter how genuine the intent of the OP. Hope I am wrong though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
It would presumably dent his reputation, but I don't see why it would cause people to question his 4x WDC. He still went out and won those titles and at times had to show great strength in coming back from behind. I don't think anyone can take that away from him, no matter what happens after.

It also depends on how you view Leclerc. Max beat Ric and, while Ric's reputation has suffered it hasn't dropped all that much tbh. And that's because many view Max as the Next Best Thing.

I think most people would agree that Vettel is very fast; it's generally his temeperament that people question. Doubt that would change if Leclerc beat him


I was thinking the same. If Leclerc beats him but then goes on and becomes a 6xWDC, then would people would not see Vettel as a failure in the future, would they?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
It would presumably dent his reputation, but I don't see why it would cause people to question his 4x WDC. He still went out and won those titles and at times had to show great strength in coming back from behind. I don't think anyone can take that away from him, no matter what happens after.

It also depends on how you view Leclerc. Max beat Ric and, while Ric's reputation has suffered it hasn't dropped all that much tbh. And that's because many view Max as the Next Best Thing.

I think most people would agree that Vettel is very fast; it's generally his temeperament that people question. Doubt that would change if Leclerc beat him


Agree with most here & throw in that save for a mistake or two at a critical time last year & a couple of strategic blunders from Ferrari & it's not a stretch to think Vettel could've been WDC at the end of 2018.

I also don't believe a his worth as a 4X WC would be questioned if Leclerc beats or even goes close to beating Vettel this year. It's pretty difficult to question the validity of a single WC let alone a 4X winner.

His reputation though?

I think it'd say more for Leclerc than it would against Vettel.

Remember 2019 will be Vettels 12th year in the sport. He's no up-&-comer anymore & is at a much different stage in his career than Leclerc.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:20 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It would presumably dent his reputation, but I don't see why it would cause people to question his 4x WDC. He still went out and won those titles and at times had to show great strength in coming back from behind. I don't think anyone can take that away from him, no matter what happens after.

It also depends on how you view Leclerc. Max beat Ric and, while Ric's reputation has suffered it hasn't dropped all that much tbh. And that's because many view Max as the Next Best Thing.

I think most people would agree that Vettel is very fast; it's generally his temeperament that people question. Doubt that would change if Leclerc beat him


I was thinking the same. If Leclerc beats him but then goes on and becomes a 6xWDC, then would people would not see Vettel as a failure in the future, would they?

If Leclerc/Vettel are evenly matched and Leclerc wins several WDCs in the future then Vettel’s reputation would get significantly enhanced.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:19 pm 
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I would put that into question now to be honest. After being pushed out of RBR by Ricciardo and then falling short of the title in the past two seasons, would anyone really put him at the same level as Prost?

Vettel is a fine World Champion no doubt, and he drove superbly for much of that 2010-2013 period, but 4 championships should place him among the very best who have ever sat in a Formula 1 car and I just wouldn't put him in that bracket.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:47 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
Hi all,

As you see from my username I am fan of Hamilton (but not a fanboy) and I want to say this is NOT a Ham vs Vet debate AT ALL.

I'm focusing on Vettel's year ahead with Leclerc. There is a lot of talk (and a poll on this forum) about how they will both perform against each other. IF, IF Leclerc beats Vettel (even if it's a small margin), will people question Vettel's worth as a World Champion? Especially 4x WDC?

Yes, he's an incredible driver who definitely deserves our respect.

However, with Daniel beating him at Red Bull when he was semi-raw and if Leclerc does the same, semi-raw, then doesn't this devalue Vettel's talent/reputation?

NOT ONE BIT.

Vettel is one of the greatest drivers ever and in his 4 consecutive championships speak to his ability to better adapt to the technology and systems featured during those years. The EBD in particular requires drivers to do the exact opposite of what they grew accustomed to throughout their entire lives, which, WHEN in a fast, tight corner, when the car is losing grip, conventionally you had to lift. With the EBD the opposite was required and it's an internal mental and physical battle between the scientific approach and natural physical impulse and instinct. Webber being so much older could not adopt the philosophy anywhere near as well as Vettel could and that was the biggest difference between them. In corners where Vettel would plant his right foot, Webber would hesitate a bit and it allowed Vettel to maintain and grow leads while running up front.

Of note, While Vettel has proven to be an excellent overtaker, he is generally better while leading, and one of the greatest while running up front. He has an innate ability to measure distances and hit braking points better when running up front without the distraction of a guy in front to consider. Hamilton is a better overtaker, but he's not able to push quite as hard as Vettel when running in clean air, but a lot closer in that aspect to Vettel than Vettel is to Hamilton at driving in traffic and overtaking.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:52 pm 
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j man wrote:
I would put that into question now to be honest. After being pushed out of RBR by Ricciardo and then falling short of the title in the past two seasons, would anyone really put him at the same level as Prost?

Vettel is a fine World Champion no doubt, and he drove superbly for much of that 2010-2013 period, but 4 championships should place him among the very best who have ever sat in a Formula 1 car and I just wouldn't put him in that bracket.


In fairness to Vettel there is only one driver since 1994 that I would put on the same level as Prost.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:31 pm 
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I think it would have to depend a lot on the way in which Leclerc beats him. If Leclerc outscores Vettel because of better luck or because Vettel lost his head and made some costly mistakes, I don't think that would dent his reputation. But if Leclerc is visibly faster, defeating Vettel in qualifying and on merit like Ricciardo did in 2014, I don't see how it could fail to dent Vettel's reputation.

Now, that's not the same thing as devaluing his WDCs. Those have whatever value they're going to have in the eye of the beholder, and that won't change. For some people they just mean he did the better job of two people in the right car: they certainly won't change their minds. For others, he did enough to win with the tools he had: they also won't change their minds. If you think Vettel was supreme in EBD cars and more vulnerable afterwards, that won't change either. What happens later in a driver's career doesn't do anything to take away their accomplishments: they keep those no matter what.

Personally, I believe that WDCs have very little value as is, so it certainly won't change my opinion. Superior driving performances have value: WDCs are determined by cars. Out of the last decade, I was only really compelled by the driving of the WDC in 3 of them (2011, 2013, 2018).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:22 pm 
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Hamilton was also beaten by Button, but somehow, he gets a lot of excuses. Let me offer one for Vettel.

Let's not forget that in 2014, when Ricciarddo beat Vettel, there was a big change in car behaviour because of the big rule changes, and it seems that it did not suit Vettel's established driving style. Plausible?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:49 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
Hi all,

As you see from my username I am fan of Hamilton (but not a fanboy) and I want to say this is NOT a Ham vs Vet debate AT ALL.

I'm focusing on Vettel's year ahead with Leclerc. There is a lot of talk (and a poll on this forum) about how they will both perform against each other. IF, IF Leclerc beats Vettel (even if it's a small margin), will people question Vettel's worth as a World Champion? Especially 4x WDC?

Yes, he's an incredible driver who definitely deserves our respect.

However, with Daniel beating him at Red Bull when he was semi-raw and if Leclerc does the same, semi-raw, then doesn't this devalue Vettel's talent/reputation?


For me personally it wouldn't devalue any of it. I think Vettel is one of the top 5 drivers in the sport. If Leclerc comes in and beats him then I will have no choice but to think that Leclerc is just a special generational talent. I mean, how many times does Vettel have to put a car on pole and disappear in the sunset for people to respect his talent? I know he has had some fast cars, but the gaps that he is so often able to put on the field was mind boggling. The guy is fast as hell, especially on race day. Imo a lot of people are expecting too much out of Leclerc in the first year. I think Vettel, who has been at Ferrari for years now, will have him under control for most of the year. I think only in year 2 of their partnership will Leclerc be truly competitive with him, but I could be wrong of course, if Leclerc is that good.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I think it would have to depend a lot on the way in which Leclerc beats him. If Leclerc outscores Vettel because of better luck or because Vettel lost his head and made some costly mistakes, I don't think that would dent his reputation. But if Leclerc is visibly faster, defeating Vettel in qualifying and on merit like Ricciardo did in 2014, I don't see how it could fail to dent Vettel's reputation.

Now, that's not the same thing as devaluing his WDCs. Those have whatever value they're going to have in the eye of the beholder, and that won't change. For some people they just mean he did the better job of two people in the right car: they certainly won't change their minds. For others, he did enough to win with the tools he had: they also won't change their minds. If you think Vettel was supreme in EBD cars and more vulnerable afterwards, that won't change either. What happens later in a driver's career doesn't do anything to take away their accomplishments: they keep those no matter what.

Personally, I believe that WDCs have very little value as is, so it certainly won't change my opinion. Superior driving performances have value: WDCs are determined by cars. Out of the last decade, I was only really compelled by the driving of the WDC in 3 of them (2011, 2013, 2018).

I agree with this first bit. If Vettel has poor reliability or makes too many errors that would be one thing but if he is proven to be slower than his teammate, that's another thing entirely. The only thing that would really hurt Vettel's reputation is being out-performed in terms of speed and talent. That would make more and more people adopt the perspective that he was simply fortunate to be the quickest of the Red Bull drivers back during that title run.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:07 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Hamilton was also beaten by Button, but somehow, he gets a lot of excuses. Let me offer one for Vettel.

Let's not forget that in 2014, when Ricciarddo beat Vettel, there was a big change in car behaviour because of the big rule changes, and it seems that it did not suit Vettel's established driving style. Plausible?

The difference is that Hamilton teamed with Button for 3 years and beat him 2 years out of 3 (and was faster than him in all 3 years). Vettel and Dan were only teammates the one year. The car was new for both Seb and Dan so struggling to adapt is no excuse. It wasn't just that Dan out-scored Vettel or that Vettel made mistakes. Dan was faster both on Saturdays and Sundays.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:36 am 
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Vettel was the master of that era, and the style of driving that required. Webber was no slouch, and is under rated these days, I would argue that he was the flip side of the coin, the car probably didn't suit him so much.

Rule changes and the different car characteristics they bring can, and does, unsettle the pecking order a bit! It is fractions but different drivers adapt differently to changes and it has always been like that.

Tbh, I'm not sure I'd pick anyone to definitely beat the Vettel + RBR combo between '11 & '13.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:24 am 
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Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:06 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

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Not me. I know that there are some who love to toss that out anytime one claims greatness for Schumi (frequently those more rabid supporters of other drivers). I don't think that the three second career years take away from his accomplishments for most of those reasonable ones who ever saw him race during his first F1 career. If one is to be fair, to return at his age after three years away from the sport was a pretty courageous undertaking for him. Also, it is not as though he did poorly by most driver standards.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:32 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Vettel was the master of that era, and the style of driving that required. Webber was no slouch, and is under rated these days, I would argue that he was the flip side of the coin, the car probably didn't suit him so much.

Rule changes and the different car characteristics they bring can, and does, unsettle the pecking order a bit! It is fractions but different drivers adapt differently to changes and it has always been like that.

Tbh, I'm not sure I'd pick anyone to definitely beat the Vettel + RBR combo between '11 & '13.

Put either Hamilton or Alonso in Webber's car and I'd take either one of them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:45 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Vettel was the master of that era, and the style of driving that required. Webber was no slouch, and is under rated these days, I would argue that he was the flip side of the coin, the car probably didn't suit him so much.

Rule changes and the different car characteristics they bring can, and does, unsettle the pecking order a bit! It is fractions but different drivers adapt differently to changes and it has always been like that.

Tbh, I'm not sure I'd pick anyone to definitely beat the Vettel + RBR combo between '11 & '13.

Put either Hamilton or Alonso in Webber's car and I'd take either one of them.

I'd take either of them in 2010 or 2012, certainly. I do however feel that Vettel was driving at an elevated level in 2011 and 2013 specifically, and he would have given either Hamilton or Alonso a very real fight. He was virtually flawless in those years, making mistakes you wouldn't even need all the fingers of one hand to count. I definitely believe that Hamilton and Alonso are both better drivers in an absolute sense, but 2011 and 2013 represent the peak of Vettel's ability. HAM & ALO would need to be on it to better him in that hypothetical.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:50 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

I don't think it's fair to say that it diminished Schumi's achievements, particularly considering what we now know about Rosberg, and how close Michael had come by 2012. It's very possible that if he had kept at it he would have beaten Rosberg in 2013 and beyond.

However, it did put the only real question mark on a spotless career: without Rosberg, Schumi was never beaten by a teammate, and nobody even really came close. Yes, it's easy to draw a line between his first and second careers, but the fact remains that without his comeback his reputation would be just that little bit more unimpeachable.

Paradoxically, I feel that if he had solidly beaten Rosberg, that would have actually enhanced his legacy significantly, establishing him firmly beyond any doubt as the greatest.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:57 am 
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For me Vettel is clearly right up there at the top of his generation, and there really isn't much between him and the likes of Alonso/Hamilton. These are the top drivers in the sport and when people criticize they are nit-picking because the standard at the top is so competitive currently. There are so many potential variables but I have always felt that while Vettel doesn't have the same natural talent and feel as Hamilton, where his true strengths lie are his dedication and ability to get the best out of a car by putting the time in. His ability to master the unnatural EBD era would support that as well as the fact he often falls short to the very best when rain leads to varying conditions. Don't get me wrong though we are talking fine margins, as clearly Hamilton/Alonso put the hard graft in as well.

Looks like the aero changes will result in wholesale changes so certainly be interesting to see how he fares against Leclerc over the season with that in mind, although would be even more interesting if pre-season testing is limited for any reason. Hard to know what the replacement of Arrivabene will mean for the two either, and how the team decide to focus their efforts as they look to bring home silverware.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:28 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

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Source: http://seethrumag.com/wp-content/upload ... 308201.jpg

Sorry but I think you need to quit whatever it is you're smoking.

NOTHING can or will EVER diminish the MACHINE that was Michael Schumacher… EVER!!!

That's not fanboyism speaking either. I've watched F1 for over 40 years and NO ONE could do what Michael could at such a high level.
NO ONE has EVER committed themselves to the sport and to better themselves the way Michael did and TRYING to come up with someone who did is futile.
About the ONLY thing anyone could ever say about Michael was that in at least one season the other guy was made to give way to him perhaps one too many
times for some to legitimize his superiority in that season.

The clashes he had with other drivers were literally no worse than what other highly regarded all-time greats have done, and were in fact less dangerous, yet
he had a season's results disqualified when others whom committed far worse, more dangerous acts barely got so much as a slap on the wrist. But the figureheads
in Michael's era were different and perhaps had no bias one way or the other and used Michael as an example to everyone else in saying that if we won't tolerate
the antics of our golden poster boy, you'd better not do anything to raise our collective brow. That is something that was never done before.

Seems to me like you're embittered because you don't like Michael because perhaps he whooped up on all of your favorite drivers who raced during that era.

Michael IS the all-time greatest F1 Driver to date and Hamilton might take that distinction for himself before its all said and done with his career, but Michael's
accolades and achievements are set in hard stone for all eternity. Accept it and move forward with your life. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:40 am 
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My opinion is that Vettel's 4 championships can't be an anomaly, but there's definitely some factors which put his performances into question. I also think you can look at Hamilton in a similar way.


Exhaust Blown Diffuser
For the duration of Vettel and Red Bull's dominance, Red Bull were running a very effective blown diffuser. Although rule changes attempted to diminish its effects, it wasn't until 2014 that it was fully banned.

Red Bull were one of the first (the first?) to race with a blown diffuser and it's clear they harnessed it best. Vettel, in particular, seemed to drive in a way which took advantage of the aero effect. I think this ability to utilise the diffuser was a major factor in his speed and wins through 2009-2013. He certainly hasn't looked the same driver since 2014 without one.


2014 - The Ricciardo Drubbing
There is no arguing with the fact a green Daniel Ricciardo was well ahead of Vettel in speed in 2014. He qualified ahead, finished ahead in races, looked after his tyres better and won out on overall points.

Either Vettel was overrated, or Ricciardo is a properly top driver. Both are possible.


Vettel has shown glimpses of speed at Ferrari, but certainly not the dominance he appeared to have at Red Bull. Many mistakes, much contact on track and frustration showing through. I think the rivalry with Leclerc will reveal something in 2019...


Hamilton doesn't escape a few points himself though:

He's had a clearly dominant car since 2014 which most drivers would have won in.
He's been beaten by Jenson Button at McLaren and Nico Rosberg at Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:08 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

Sorry but I think you need to quit whatever it is you're smoking.

NOTHING can or will EVER diminish the MACHINE that was Michael Schumacher… EVER!!!

I'm fairly sure Mort Canard is making the same point. Or at least that's how I read it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:22 am 
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kleefton wrote:
I think Vettel is one of the top 5 drivers in the sport.


Just for clarification purposes kleefton, you do mean top 5 of those currently racing right?

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sorry but I think you need to quit whatever it is you're smoking.

NOTHING can or will EVER diminish the MACHINE that was Michael Schumacher… EVER!!!

That's not fanboyism speaking either. I've watched F1 for over 40 years and NO ONE could do what Michael could at such a high level.
NO ONE has EVER committed themselves to the sport and to better themselves the way Michael did and TRYING to come up with someone who did is futile.
About the ONLY thing anyone could ever say about Michael was that in at least one season the other guy was made to give way to him perhaps one too many
times for some to legitimize his superiority in that season.

The clashes he had with other drivers were literally no worse than what other highly regarded all-time greats have done, and were in fact less dangerous, yet
he had a season's results disqualified when others whom committed far worse, more dangerous acts barely got so much as a slap on the wrist. But the figureheads
in Michael's era were different and perhaps had no bias one way or the other and used Michael as an example to everyone else in saying that if we won't tolerate
the antics of our golden poster boy, you'd better not do anything to raise our collective brow. That is something that was never done before.

Seems to me like you're embittered because you don't like Michael because perhaps he whooped up on all of your favorite drivers who raced during that era.

Michael IS the all-time greatest F1 Driver to date and Hamilton might take that distinction for himself before its all said and done with his career, but Michael's
accolades and achievements are set in hard stone for all eternity. Accept it and move forward with your life. :lol:


Love your commitment to the cause F1 Merc.

Can't say I agree with the conclusion of your argument but by God I do admire the passion you showed making it :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:34 am 
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I think people are criticizing vettel too much for 2014. Yes, Ricciardo was new to the car, but the rules changed things so much that year, that the car was effectively nearly as new for Vettel as changing team was for Ricciardo. Vettel had been used to such a different car before. It wasn't a good year, I'll accept that, but I think he's been better every year since. IMO, he looked the best driver on the grid in 2015. He was very quick in the next 3 but did make mistakes. But as on another post i made in the vettel vs Leclerc thread, I think Leclerc has been very over rated given Ericsson was his team mate and the car had improved so much. To begin with, I think even Kimi would be stronger. And over the whole season, he may end up better than Kimi, but I don't think it will be by much. This year, I think it is as likely that leclerc will beat Vettel as Kimi would have if he stayed. I just don't see it happening And I couldn't imagine a poll being created for vettel vs Kimi. I think the car won't have a dramatic change in performance like 2014 either, so it will be Leclerc who will have to be getting used to things.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:30 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It would presumably dent his reputation, but I don't see why it would cause people to question his 4x WDC. He still went out and won those titles and at times had to show great strength in coming back from behind. I don't think anyone can take that away from him, no matter what happens after.

It also depends on how you view Leclerc. Max beat Ric and, while Ric's reputation has suffered it hasn't dropped all that much tbh. And that's because many view Max as the Next Best Thing.

I think most people would agree that Vettel is very fast; it's generally his temeperament that people question. Doubt that would change if Leclerc beat him


I was thinking the same. If Leclerc beats him but then goes on and becomes a 6xWDC, then would people would not see Vettel as a failure in the future, would they?

If Leclerc/Vettel are evenly matched and Leclerc wins several WDCs in the future then Vettel’s reputation would get significantly enhanced.


Yeah, this also holds true.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

Sorry but I think you need to quit whatever it is you're smoking.

NOTHING can or will EVER diminish the MACHINE that was Michael Schumacher… EVER!!!

I'm fairly sure Mort Canard is making the same point. Or at least that's how I read it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure F1Mercenary misread this.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:13 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I think Vettel is one of the top 5 drivers in the sport.


Just for clarification purposes kleefton, you do mean top 5 of those currently racing right?



Yes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:19 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I think people are criticizing vettel too much for 2014. Yes, Ricciardo was new to the car, but the rules changed things so much that year, that the car was effectively nearly as new for Vettel as changing team was for Ricciardo. Vettel had been used to such a different car before. It wasn't a good year, I'll accept that, but I think he's been better every year since. IMO, he looked the best driver on the grid in 2015. He was very quick in the next 3 but did make mistakes. But as on another post i made in the vettel vs Leclerc thread, I think Leclerc has been very over rated given Ericsson was his team mate and the car had improved so much. To begin with, I think even Kimi would be stronger. And over the whole season, he may end up better than Kimi, but I don't think it will be by much. This year, I think it is as likely that leclerc will beat Vettel as Kimi would have if he stayed. I just don't see it happening And I couldn't imagine a poll being created for vettel vs Kimi. I think the car won't have a dramatic change in performance like 2014 either, so it will be Leclerc who will have to be getting used to things.


Yeah 2014 wasn't as bad as some are making it out. Most of his problems resulted in not being able to make the tires work as well as Ricciardo in the races. He still had some very strong races in 2014 and he outshined Ricc in the rain. The qualifying battle went to Ricciardo but it wasn't a drubbing. He should/could have won Canada if he had better luck with his pit stop. Had a memorable tussle with Alonso at Silverstone which he came out on top of. It wasn't an awful season. It's just that he was paired up with a guy who had a better one and that guy has shown to be a strong performer and one of the best on the grid since then. I think he will bounce back strong this year. We shall see...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:09 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I think people are criticizing vettel too much for 2014. Yes, Ricciardo was new to the car, but the rules changed things so much that year, that the car was effectively nearly as new for Vettel as changing team was for Ricciardo. Vettel had been used to such a different car before. It wasn't a good year, I'll accept that, but I think he's been better every year since. IMO, he looked the best driver on the grid in 2015. He was very quick in the next 3 but did make mistakes. But as on another post i made in the vettel vs Leclerc thread, I think Leclerc has been very over rated given Ericsson was his team mate and the car had improved so much. To begin with, I think even Kimi would be stronger. And over the whole season, he may end up better than Kimi, but I don't think it will be by much. This year, I think it is as likely that leclerc will beat Vettel as Kimi would have if he stayed. I just don't see it happening And I couldn't imagine a poll being created for vettel vs Kimi. I think the car won't have a dramatic change in performance like 2014 either, so it will be Leclerc who will have to be getting used to things.


Yeah 2014 wasn't as bad as some are making it out. Most of his problems resulted in not being able to make the tires work as well as Ricciardo in the races. He still had some very strong races in 2014 and he outshined Ricc in the rain. The qualifying battle went to Ricciardo but it wasn't a drubbing. He should/could have won Canada if he had better luck with his pit stop. Had a memorable tussle with Alonso at Silverstone which he came out on top of. It wasn't an awful season. It's just that he was paired up with a guy who had a better one and that guy has shown to be a strong performer and one of the best on the grid since then. I think he will bounce back strong this year. We shall see...

Wasn't it also the case that if he finished below 3rd by September he would trigger the exit clause that would release him to Ferrari and the mega-$$? It has been well recorded. This is without taking anything from Dan, as we saw Seb fighting in races, but just maybe not fighting as hard as he could?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:19 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Hi all,

As you see from my username I am fan of Hamilton (but not a fanboy) and I want to say this is NOT a Ham vs Vet debate AT ALL.

I'm focusing on Vettel's year ahead with Leclerc. There is a lot of talk (and a poll on this forum) about how they will both perform against each other. IF, IF Leclerc beats Vettel (even if it's a small margin), will people question Vettel's worth as a World Champion? Especially 4x WDC?

Yes, he's an incredible driver who definitely deserves our respect.

However, with Daniel beating him at Red Bull when he was semi-raw and if Leclerc does the same, semi-raw, then doesn't this devalue Vettel's talent/reputation?

NOT ONE BIT.

Vettel is one of the greatest drivers ever and in his 4 consecutive championships speak to his ability to better adapt to the technology and systems featured during those years. The EBD in particular requires drivers to do the exact opposite of what they grew accustomed to throughout their entire lives, which, WHEN in a fast, tight corner, when the car is losing grip, conventionally you had to lift. With the EBD the opposite was required and it's an internal mental and physical battle between the scientific approach and natural physical impulse and instinct. Webber being so much older could not adopt the philosophy anywhere near as well as Vettel could and that was the biggest difference between them. In corners where Vettel would plant his right foot, Webber would hesitate a bit and it allowed Vettel to maintain and grow leads while running up front.

Of note, While Vettel has proven to be an excellent overtaker, he is generally better while leading, and one of the greatest while running up front. He has an innate ability to measure distances and hit braking points better when running up front without the distraction of a guy in front to consider. Hamilton is a better overtaker, but he's not able to push quite as hard as Vettel when running in clean air, but a lot closer in that aspect to Vettel than Vettel is to Hamilton at driving in traffic and overtaking.

Webber not being able to adapt doesn't mean that other drivers would not have done, the Red Bull had the best EBD technology this kind of reads that Vettel himself was the master of such technology?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Hamilton was also beaten by Button, but somehow, he gets a lot of excuses. Let me offer one for Vettel.

Let's not forget that in 2014, when Ricciarddo beat Vettel, there was a big change in car behaviour because of the big rule changes, and it seems that it did not suit Vettel's established driving style. Plausible?

Hamilton only gets the excuse of beating Button the year before and the year after.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:28 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

Image
Source: http://seethrumag.com/wp-content/upload ... 308201.jpg

Well the excuse for Schumacher was that he was past his prime years.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:51 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

I don't think it's fair to say that it diminished Schumi's achievements, particularly considering what we now know about Rosberg, and how close Michael had come by 2012. It's very possible that if he had kept at it he would have beaten Rosberg in 2013 and beyond.

However, it did put the only real question mark on a spotless career: without Rosberg, Schumi was never beaten by a teammate, and nobody even really came close. Yes, it's easy to draw a line between his first and second careers, but the fact remains that without his comeback his reputation would be just that little bit more unimpeachable.

Paradoxically, I feel that if he had solidly beaten Rosberg, that would have actually enhanced his legacy significantly, establishing him firmly beyond any doubt as the greatest.

I thought that Schumacher would thrash Rosberg, it's since then that age has become a factor in respect to a driver being past it when he gets to his 40's, Mansell was re-signed by Williams to race as a 38 year old and won the title when he was 39 and was good to go for many years after that or so it seemed.

He left because of the signing of Prost who was only 2 years younger, Prost won the F1 title at 38 Mansell went on and won Indycar aged 40, Fangio won all his titles in his 40's, there was nothing to suggest that Schumacher would fail merely because of age, 41 didn't seem that old at the time?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

I don't think it's fair to say that it diminished Schumi's achievements, particularly considering what we now know about Rosberg, and how close Michael had come by 2012. It's very possible that if he had kept at it he would have beaten Rosberg in 2013 and beyond.

However, it did put the only real question mark on a spotless career: without Rosberg, Schumi was never beaten by a teammate, and nobody even really came close. Yes, it's easy to draw a line between his first and second careers, but the fact remains that without his comeback his reputation would be just that little bit more unimpeachable.

Paradoxically, I feel that if he had solidly beaten Rosberg, that would have actually enhanced his legacy significantly, establishing him firmly beyond any doubt as the greatest.

I thought that Schumacher would thrash Rosberg, it's since then that age has become a factor in respect to a driver being past it when he gets to his 40's, Mansell was re-signed by Williams to race as a 38 year old and won the title when he was 39 and was good to go for many years after that or so it seemed.

He left because of the signing of Prost who was only 2 years younger, Prost won the F1 title at 38 Mansell went on and won Indycar aged 40, Fangio won all his titles in his 40's, there was nothing to suggest that Schumacher would fail merely because of age, 41 didn't seem that old at the time?


What a funny post. Mansell in Williams, seriously? That car was enjoying such an advantage that was unreal, Cesaris would have won in it. Unless you think that Mansell actually would have been 2 secs per lap faster than Senna in Monaco...

And Mansell did not stay out of the sport 3 years, he did not have a neck injury nor did he have issues with testing the cars in the simulator, in fact they had no test restrictions as far as I remember. You are comparing apples with oranges, but whatever rocks your boat


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Comparing different eras. F1 is so professional now, that any drop in performance gets highlighted.

Fangio raced at a time when the sport had barely evolved from a weekend pursuit for wealthy hobbyists, and a time when it was safer to be in the frontline of a war than racing in F1!

I think tyres were the biggest issue for Schumacher on his return, and took away what I would argue was his biggest asset as a driver - the ability to pull out a full stint of race laps at qualifying speed
on a Sunday. In that era, when making stints work was critical, absolutely nobody came close to Schumachers ability to make a strategy work by pulling out a stint.

2010-2012 seen a period where tyres wouldn't even last a lap if pushed hard.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

I don't think it's fair to say that it diminished Schumi's achievements, particularly considering what we now know about Rosberg, and how close Michael had come by 2012. It's very possible that if he had kept at it he would have beaten Rosberg in 2013 and beyond.

However, it did put the only real question mark on a spotless career: without Rosberg, Schumi was never beaten by a teammate, and nobody even really came close. Yes, it's easy to draw a line between his first and second careers, but the fact remains that without his comeback his reputation would be just that little bit more unimpeachable.

Paradoxically, I feel that if he had solidly beaten Rosberg, that would have actually enhanced his legacy significantly, establishing him firmly beyond any doubt as the greatest.

I thought that Schumacher would thrash Rosberg, it's since then that age has become a factor in respect to a driver being past it when he gets to his 40's, Mansell was re-signed by Williams to race as a 38 year old and won the title when he was 39 and was good to go for many years after that or so it seemed.

He left because of the signing of Prost who was only 2 years younger, Prost won the F1 title at 38 Mansell went on and won Indycar aged 40, Fangio won all his titles in his 40's, there was nothing to suggest that Schumacher would fail merely because of age, 41 didn't seem that old at the time?


What a funny post. Mansell in Williams, seriously? That car was enjoying such an advantage that was unreal, Cesaris would have won in it. Unless you think that Mansell actually would have been 2 secs per lap faster than Senna in Monaco...

And Mansell did not stay out of the sport 3 years, he did not have a neck injury nor did he have issues with testing the cars in the simulator, in fact they had no test restrictions as far as I remember. You are comparing apples with oranges, but whatever rocks your boat

I'm comparing how age didn't seem to be as much a factor back then, in 1995 Mansell was signed by McLaren to replace Senna, he was 42 that year, he missed the first 2 races reasons given that he had put on some weight during his 2 years in Indycars and didn't fit inside the car.

They modified the car and he did 2 races but struggled in respect to Hakkinen and then called it a day, no one gave a thought to him being too old.

What happened to Schumacher perhaps served to highlight that there is a drop off in performance something that wasn't so obvious before, the excuses you are making suggests you don't think that age was a factor?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Is there ANYONE here who is willing to step up and claim that it diminished Michael Schumacher's accomplishments when he was beaten three years running by a young Nico Rosberg???

Sorry but I think you need to quit whatever it is you're smoking.

NOTHING can or will EVER diminish the MACHINE that was Michael Schumacher… EVER!!!

I'm fairly sure Mort Canard is making the same point. Or at least that's how I read it.


My point was fundamentally in agreement with F1 MERCENARY's idea. Losing to Nico for three years did not diminish Michael's solid resume of accomplishments.

F1 MERCENARY, however needs to quit posting under the influence!!! The man seems to suffer from delusions of lucidity. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Comparing different eras. F1 is so professional now, that any drop in performance gets highlighted.

Fangio raced at a time when the sport had barely evolved from a weekend pursuit for wealthy hobbyists, and a time when it was safer to be in the frontline of a war than racing in F1!

I think tyres were the biggest issue for Schumacher on his return, and took away what I would argue was his biggest asset as a driver - the ability to pull out a full stint of race laps at qualifying speed
on a Sunday. In that era, when making stints work was critical, absolutely nobody came close to Schumachers ability to make a strategy work by pulling out a stint.

2010-2012 seen a period where tyres wouldn't even last a lap if pushed hard.

Yes this is basically what I was saying.

Schumacher hated the Pirelli tyres although you have to remember his first year was on the Bridgestone tyres.

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