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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Last year was a huge letdown for my team Mclaren :-) . So much so that i almost stopped watching F1, because it was very painful. Since the end of the season, I have been praying that Mclaren come up with a monster of a car next year so that they can move up the standings. Everyday i look at this website atleast 3 times to see if anyone has posted any juicy titbits which will give me a hint of things to come. So in desperation, I decided to create a post, hoping all you learned folks will help quell some of my anxiety. Things I would love to get some info on are (and many more)
- Any news on how Mclaren new car is coming up?
- What happened to James Key? When is he joining, I know he is no silver bullet, but am clutching at straws here.
- Whats cooking at Mclaren center?
- Broadening this further, any hints that someone further up will produce a dud?
- Any broad based disruptions at other teams?

Anything???? This offseason is killing me :-)

Helpppp.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Created a similar thread for the pre season hype / news / launch dates:

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15356

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:47 am 
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Well, before this season, it appears McLaren thought they had one of the best chassis but were let down by the Honda engine. This might've led to some false sense of security at McLaren regarding their own chassis design.

This year showed that McLaren were not just lacking in the engine department, but in downforce/chassis as well. This must have opened a few eyes at McLaren, and got rid of the illusion that the problem was "just" the engine. I'd imagine they have made some changes to their car design process, which hopefully would lead to a more competitive car next year. Obviously, this is just pure speculation from my side.

I think McLaren still has some of the best designers and engineers in F1, so I'd wait until the end of next year to see where they really are at the moment competitiveness-wise.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:13 am 
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Gotcha wrote:
Well, before this season, it appears McLaren thought they had one of the best chassis but were let down by the Honda engine. This might've led to some false sense of security at McLaren regarding their own chassis design.

This year showed that McLaren were not just lacking in the engine department, but in downforce/chassis as well. This must have opened a few eyes at McLaren, and got rid of the illusion that the problem was "just" the engine. I'd imagine they have made some changes to their car design process, which hopefully would lead to a more competitive car next year. Obviously, this is just pure speculation from my side.

I don't think this is quite correct. McLaren have been quite open about the fact that this year's chassis is worse than the 2017 car - not just relatively worse, but absolutely worse. It literally produces less downforce than the 2017 car, despite almost everyone else making a step forward (Williams being the other exception, I believe).

So I don't think it's that they overestimated their chassis and got found out, I think it's that they redesigned the chassis and totally ruined it. A bit like 2013 - nobody claims that Macca had a crap chassis in 2012 just because they messed up the 2013 car.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:29 am 
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Sudarshan wrote:
Last year was a huge letdown for my team Mclaren :-) . So much so that i almost stopped watching F1, because it was very painful. Since the end of the season, I have been praying that Mclaren come up with a monster of a car next year so that they can move up the standings. Everyday i look at this website atleast 3 times to see if anyone has posted any juicy titbits which will give me a hint of things to come. So in desperation, I decided to create a post, hoping all you learned folks will help quell some of my anxiety. Things I would love to get some info on are (and many more)
- Any news on how Mclaren new car is coming up?
- What happened to James Key? When is he joining, I know he is no silver bullet, but am clutching at straws here.
- Whats cooking at Mclaren center?
- Broadening this further, any hints that someone further up will produce a dud?
- Any broad based disruptions at other teams?

Anything???? This offseason is killing me :-)

Helpppp.


From rumours I've seen elsewhere..

- Fundamental issue with this years car solved in the summer. Early rumours for next year are positive but not based on much and they're making a lot of changes so I wouldn't believe too much or aim to high as I think if it was overwhelmingly positive Alonso would've stayed. I've read wheelbase,sidepods,larger airbox and rear suspension all new. Aiming at fighting Renault with what might look visually similar to this years Red Bull chassis, especially around the sidepods. Basically a steadying of the ship type year I expect with hopes they can start closing in from 2020 with the new management scheme.

-James Key to start next summer. Has had nothing to do with the next car and will only likely work on the 2020 car when he arrives.

- Ex Porsche chief Seidl could come in as TP. Key as TD. De Ferran moving to IndyCar side perhaps or maybe he'll keep his role I'm not sure how all that will shake out but added to Prod,Stella and Fry its a nice little squad on paper so long term I'm not that worried about McLaren moving forward if they can get a budget cap or a massive partner again.

- Switching engines is a tricky thing, McLaren messed it up so its possible Red Bull do, they messed up the 2015 and early 2017 cars but I think with STR's experience in switching engines and with running Honda this year I don't personally think they'll mess it up but its plausible I guess. Merc and Ferrari will be fine I'm sure and hopefully Renault and McLaren are not too far behind. As depressing as it sounds I'd take them just being within a second and bite your hand off if offered it right now tbh.


I think if you're a Macca fan a more steady year fighting Renault would be a great start to the rebuild considering they're basically a year behind them in development and have similar budgets/facilities. We'll see how much they were able to claw back by the aero reg change and the early start on next years car but I'd definitely take fighting Renault for 4th as a good step. Maybe still too optimistic for some considering where they fell to this year which I understand but they've got the budget,tools and talent in the staff so I think they can turn it around and get to fighting for 4th, potentially even from the off but I'll wait for some news before getting over excited.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Stella has given some insights into the issues this year in an interview with AMuS. I'll just shamelessly lift a post from a poster called Ron Dennis on f1technical...

AMuS wrote:
But where had the McLaren engineers gone wrong? Stella explains, "Our 2017 model was a good foundation. We wanted to develop that further. In certain corners, we lost massively to the Red Bulletins in 2017. We wanted to turn off that, but have transferred this weakness to the new car. In retrospect, we've gone too far in some things and created some aerodynamic issues that put us in a dead end. "

The McLaren MCL33 could not maintain the contact pressure in curves over the entire course from turning to accelerating. To keep the downforce reasonably stable, McLaren made do with the mallet method. Bigger wings. They drove the air resistance upwards. And that cost top speed. The McLaren were among the slowest cars on the straight.

With the problem of fluctuating downforce McLaren was not alone. Stella pushes the phenomenon on the wider cars. "The larger front wheels produce greater turbulence than they did before 2017. The main task of aerodynamics today is to get a handle on this turbulence. The wider subsoil exacerbates the problem. Because it contributes more to the overall output than in the past. " According to Stella, this is also the secret of the top teams:" Anyone who manages to control the downforce better over the entire corner is in a different category. "

Like many other teams, McLaren realized that the simulation tools were no longer enough. "We have reached the limits of what a wind tunnel and CFD simulation can do," admits Stella. Therefore McLaren went from the GP Austria to use the first training on Friday as a test session. Parts of the development came to the car, some from the 3D printer, and the two MCL33s were stuffed with sensors to match the correlation between wind tunnel, CFD, and circuitMcLaren Senna in the driving report . "We turned every stone around to find out where the mistake lies," reveals Roberts.

McLaren changed the management during the summer and also changed the design office. At the same time, new measurement methods were developed in Woking to reduce the gap between laboratory and reality. "In fast corners our car was not so bad. Unfortunately there are less and less fast corners. Even Pouhon in Spa is now full without any problems, "summarizes Stella. "Our weakness was mostly in slow corners. And the processes in these curves are incredibly difficult to simulate in the wind tunnel and CFD. "

After the engineers realized that the MCL33 was caught in his concept, they tried to understand the bugs of the 2018 car so as not to run into the same trap in 2019. McLaren did a whole series of experiments to sort out the car's sore spots. Stella describes the difficulties: "These cars are incredibly complex. Even if you only want to test a new front brake ventilation, you need two months for design and production. That is why we have produced many test components in the rapid prototyping process. But often it is not a detail that is to blame but the interplay of many components. In order to get a better overall picture, we have changed our testing procedures. "

Simon Roberts is confident that the designers have understood all the problems. "It was a long process, not the one moment we said: That's exactly it. We could have incorporated some of the insights into the current car, but that would have put pressure on the weight of the car. Therefore, the pace of development in the second half of the season was rather slow. "Stella adds:" It's not that we missed the ideas. The concept itself had its limits. Many changes would not have worked. "


https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Is this a McLaren news only thread?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Technically yes according to the OP, but similar info from other teams can go here too

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:49 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Gotcha wrote:
Well, before this season, it appears McLaren thought they had one of the best chassis but were let down by the Honda engine. This might've led to some false sense of security at McLaren regarding their own chassis design.

This year showed that McLaren were not just lacking in the engine department, but in downforce/chassis as well. This must have opened a few eyes at McLaren, and got rid of the illusion that the problem was "just" the engine. I'd imagine they have made some changes to their car design process, which hopefully would lead to a more competitive car next year. Obviously, this is just pure speculation from my side.

I don't think this is quite correct. McLaren have been quite open about the fact that this year's chassis is worse than the 2017 car - not just relatively worse, but absolutely worse. It literally produces less downforce than the 2017 car, despite almost everyone else making a step forward (Williams being the other exception, I believe).

So I don't think it's that they overestimated their chassis and got found out, I think it's that they redesigned the chassis and totally ruined it. A bit like 2013 - nobody claims that Macca had a crap chassis in 2012 just because they messed up the 2013 car.

No, Gotcha is 100% correct on his assessment of the situation.

While McLaren have said those things, they only did so because they no longer had the Honda Engine to blame. The Red Bulls were quite mighty at times with IDENTICAL Renault power units in their cars. The failures themselves however, don't factor into the actual performance of the engines. When they worked Verstappen and Ricciardo both won and/or placed quite high in the races as well as qualy, which meant McLaren COULDN'T point the finger elsewhere, especially since the story was consistent with the last 4 years with a new engine supplier.

THAT is the reason McLaren were so quick to say this year's car was worse than the 2017 car. Had that really been the case, they could have called up last years' chassis for both drivers and painted them Papaya Orange. However they knew it wouldn't have affected much of anything so they just ran with what they had. I bet last year's car fitted with the Renault lap times would have been similar. This year the Honda was pretty good in a sub par chassis, so I'm eager to see how the Red Bulls do next season, especially since it's been rumored that the 2019 has clawed back the supposed 60+ horsepower they were down, with improved reliability.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:38 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
THAT is the reason McLaren were so quick to say this year's car was worse than the 2017 car. Had that really been the case, they could have called up last years' chassis for both drivers and painted them Papaya Orange. However they knew it wouldn't have affected much of anything so they just ran with what they had. I bet last year's car fitted with the Renault lap times would have been similar. This year the Honda was pretty good in a sub par chassis, so I'm eager to see how the Red Bulls do next season, especially since it's been rumored that the 2019 has clawed back the supposed 60+ horsepower they were down, with improved reliability.

You know as well as I do that the 2017 chassis wouldn't be legal to run in 2018, so no, they wouldn't have done that.

And where does this urban legend that the Honda looked good in the Toro Rosso come from? Toro Rosso weren't any better than they usually were this year. At best - at best - it looked just as good as the Renault engine. Any claims that it looked better are pure wishful thinking on the part of viewers and Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:48 am 
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They can't run last years chassis, which was demonstrably faster than this years, we only have to look at Spa where despite having at least 40bhp more and softer tyres they actually went slower, but they can't run it because the engine wouldn't fit and they'd be running a now illegal suspension so its not a case of a lick of paint and they are away.

The trick suspension and packaging of the Honda, along with blowing the monkey seat which was banned as well for this year, is what helped last years chassis. All of which can't be recreated for this year. They even managed to mess up the gear ratios for this year.

Underestimating the value the Honda packaging had and/or being more reliant on the blown monkey seat and trick suspension for their concept to work are other areas they messed up. The gamble on the new rear suspension didn't work, they realised their smaller airbox design didn't fit with these engines and its worth taking the extra drag penalty for better cooling and packaging reasons as well. And also the gear ratio thing was a problem.

EDIT-Exediron beat me to it.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:25 pm 
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yeah Alonso also confirms that the car was much better in 2017:

“We understood our problems, we know last year our car was very competitive on the chassis side – we know that, we have the GPS comparison, we know the speed in the corners.

“The car last year, 12 months ago, was very competitive in some areas and we lost that level of competitiveness this year unfortunately.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclarens-2018-compromises-yielded-only-downsides-alonso/4311294/

I don't see Alonso's motivation for bigging up the 2017 car at this stage so I'm inclined to believe he's telling it how it is here.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:

And where does this urban legend that the Honda looked good in the Toro Rosso come from? Toro Rosso weren't any better than they usually were this year. At best - at best - it looked just as good as the Renault engine. Any claims that it looked better are pure wishful thinking on the part of viewers and Red Bull.


Yeah this has baffled me as well. I can't see how a 12 mth collaboration with RB have given the Honda a quantum leap to up near the head of the pack that 3 yrs & millions of dollars with McLaren couldn't, considering also that RB couldn't get the Renault PU on par with Merc & Ferrari in the 4 years they were together in the hybrid era.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:

And where does this urban legend that the Honda looked good in the Toro Rosso come from? Toro Rosso weren't any better than they usually were this year. At best - at best - it looked just as good as the Renault engine. Any claims that it looked better are pure wishful thinking on the part of viewers and Red Bull.


Yeah this has baffled me as well. I can't see how a 12 mth collaboration with RB have given the Honda a quantum leap to up near the head of the pack that 3 yrs & millions of dollars with McLaren couldn't, considering also that RB couldn't get the Renault PU on par with Merc & Ferrari in the 4 years they were together in the hybrid era.


Honda have probably got more out of the deal than Torro Rosso. They have been able to develop their engines in a less hostile environment without drivers going "wah wah wah, GP2 engine" over the radio.

Torro Rosso have been used as lab rats for Red Bull, and grid penalties in the name of experimentation and development have hurt TR in that regard. But Championship position isn't as important to Torro Rosso as their funding comes from the Red Bull company. They know their place in that regard.

It must be said that Renault reserve driver Jack Aitken said on a podcast that he felt Torro Rosso were on their pace at the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:16 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
THAT is the reason McLaren were so quick to say this year's car was worse than the 2017 car. Had that really been the case, they could have called up last years' chassis for both drivers and painted them Papaya Orange. However they knew it wouldn't have affected much of anything so they just ran with what they had. I bet last year's car fitted with the Renault lap times would have been similar. This year the Honda was pretty good in a sub par chassis, so I'm eager to see how the Red Bulls do next season, especially since it's been rumored that the 2019 has clawed back the supposed 60+ horsepower they were down, with improved reliability.

You know as well as I do that the 2017 chassis wouldn't be legal to run in 2018, so no, they wouldn't have done that.

And where does this urban legend that the Honda looked good in the Toro Rosso come from? Toro Rosso weren't any better than they usually were this year. At best - at best - it looked just as good as the Renault engine. Any claims that it looked better are pure wishful thinking on the part of viewers and Red Bull.

C'mon… THIS IS F1 and the differences from 2017 and 2018 are negligible!!!

Do you realize how EASY it would be to alter 2017 cars to comply with 2018 regulations??!?!?
These guys could make those revisions within a couple of week at the very most, and that's pushing it quite a bit. The suspension, Fins and new rear cowlings that adhere to the 2018 rules can be done in a few days time.

The problem lies within McLaren's philosophy, in that instead of evolving their design, they start from scratch each season. And I'm not sure if they're still tasking a different person to design the car each year, but if that is indeed still the case, well, pile that on top of starting from a blank slate. This means there is no hope for consistency and their approach is one of hope from the very start each season, hoping that ALL their calculations and design principles on paper translate precisely as they do in CFD and scale models. Other teams look at what worked well the previous season, what didn't, and use that as a starting point and develop and refine from there. During their 4-year championship Run, Newey did this so well and their cars were an evolution from season to season. Even their Flexi Wings and Rubberized Nosecones were evolutions rather than all new stand-alone concepts.

Mercedes also evolved their cars in 3 generations. Fist their 2010 to 2013 Cars, then their 2014 to 2017 cars, and now their 2017 & 2018 cars.

To say there is no way McLaren could have run a modified 2017 Chassis for 2018 is not true. They very well could, and should have, "IF" it was so much more superb than the 2018 car.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:35 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:

And where does this urban legend that the Honda looked good in the Toro Rosso come from? Toro Rosso weren't any better than they usually were this year. At best - at best - it looked just as good as the Renault engine. Any claims that it looked better are pure wishful thinking on the part of viewers and Red Bull.


Yeah this has baffled me as well. I can't see how a 12 mth collaboration with RB have given the Honda a quantum leap to up near the head of the pack that 3 yrs & millions of dollars with McLaren couldn't, considering also that RB couldn't get the Renault PU on par with Merc & Ferrari in the 4 years they were together in the hybrid era.

It's not an urban legend.

Ericsson himself said how they couldn't pass the Toro Rossos down the straights at Spa even with DRS deployed. And Spa is just passed the half way point of the season and Honda still wasn't done introducing upgrades which ended up making their engines even more powerful by the end of the season. Toro Rosso is always lacking more in the chassis department than engine, and this year they struggled with handling and grip and Hartley looked much out of his element initially but recovered to look quite solid in the second half of the season. Gasly was pretty consistent but his performance seemed to taper off a tad once his promotion to Red Bull was announced. But the Honda was definitely fast.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:25 am 
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Basically all the people that were praising the mclaren car in 2017 are no longer at mclaren, including alonso. If the previous year car was that good then why get rid of all the people who were so enamored with it? Alonso has no choice but to continue praising the 2017 car. After all he was the one shouting from the rooftops in mexico that they had the best chassis in 2017. I dont think he truly believes that though. I hope not anyway, for his sanity.

Rest assured all eyes will be on macca and redbull next year. Redbull needs to prove that switching to honda was a good move and macca needs to start making their way back up the grid. We shall see who is in better shape.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:22 am 
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https://www.crash.net/f1/news/911745/1/ ... rship-deal

According to Zak Coca-Cola were happy with their 3 race sponsorship of McLaren. Good to see the big everyday brands also being linked to F1.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:16 pm 
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According to ESPN McLaren's target is Championship in 5 years! http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/256 ... rainD_aqsn


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:04 am 
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Oh dear me.

http://f1i.com/news/327359-honda-development-with-red-bull-hits-a-snag-already.html

So we're 70 odd days out from FP1 in Australia and it's being reported that Honda have, and I quote "A major vibration issue linked with it's ICE".

So while it may be true that the power output has equalled or even exceeded that of the Renault unit, it means diddly squat if that power can't be utilised without blowing the engine into 1000 pieces.

Hasn't this vibration issue been an ongoing issue with the Honda unit for a couple of years now & didn't RB get Illien in to help to try to get more grunt out of the Renault engine when they re-badged it Aston Martin with little success?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:33 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Hasn't this vibration issue been an ongoing issue with the Honda unit for a couple of years now

Yeah, the vibrations were the killer from the 2017 season that it took them forever to get on top of. I guess Macca must still be part of the design process, seeing at the whole thing was their fault before... ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:45 am 
Jezza13 wrote:
Oh dear me.

http://f1i.com/news/327359-honda-development-with-red-bull-hits-a-snag-already.html

So we're 70 odd days out from FP1 in Australia and it's being reported that Honda have, and I quote "A major vibration issue linked with it's ICE".

So while it may be true that the power output has equalled or even exceeded that of the Renault unit, it means diddly squat if that power can't be utilised without blowing the engine into 1000 pieces.

Hasn't this vibration issue been an ongoing issue with the Honda unit for a couple of years now & didn't RB get Illien in to help to try to get more grunt out of the Renault engine when they re-badged it Aston Martin with little success?

From what I remember Renault decided not to use Illiens work and continued with their own plans, which way was a better choice I don't know...


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dompclarke wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Oh dear me.

http://f1i.com/news/327359-honda-development-with-red-bull-hits-a-snag-already.html

So we're 70 odd days out from FP1 in Australia and it's being reported that Honda have, and I quote "A major vibration issue linked with it's ICE".

So while it may be true that the power output has equalled or even exceeded that of the Renault unit, it means diddly squat if that power can't be utilised without blowing the engine into 1000 pieces.

Hasn't this vibration issue been an ongoing issue with the Honda unit for a couple of years now & didn't RB get Illien in to help to try to get more grunt out of the Renault engine when they re-badged it Aston Martin with little success?

From what I remember Renault decided not to use Illiens work and continued with their own plans, which way was a better choice I don't know...


I stand corrected. That was indeed the case.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:42 am 
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Ferrari have yet another new team principal:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bino ... s/4320196/


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:50 am 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
Ferrari have yet another new team principal:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bino ... s/4320196/

That's sudden, but Binotto has certainly surpassed expectations as a technical director. Maybe he's just what they need as a team principle?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Here comes a new appointment. McLaren have hired Andreas Seidl to be the new managing director of their F1 team. Changes leading in a positive direction? Time will tell.

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/6649 ... ted_as_MD/


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Sudarshan wrote:
Here comes a new appointment. McLaren have hired Andreas Seidl to be the new managing director of their F1 team. Changes leading in a positive direction? Time will tell.

http://gptoday.com/full_story/view/6649 ... ted_as_MD/


I made a separate thread for this news, here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15375


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Not sure where to put these, but some news on Merc & Ferrari PU/engine development.

https://thesportsrush.com/ferrari-engin ... 19-season/

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3920 ... p-in-2019/

https://thesportsrush.com/mercedes-rece ... -petronas/

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Thanks aice, very interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 am 
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Have Mclaren got Coca Cola on their side? Could be a good boost if that happens.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/01/17 ... cola-deal/


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:12 pm 
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You know it's a slow news period for F1 when Hamilton to Ferrari rumours are circling based on little more than a Tony Jardine theory.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:56 pm 
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How about this small item for a titbit?

https://johnwallstreet.com/

Scroll down to where it says: "Formula One For Sale, Again"

Apparently Liberty are not hitting the targets they were aiming for (apart from axing the grid girls I guess!) so they are thinking about it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:07 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
How about this small item for a titbit?

https://johnwallstreet.com/

Scroll down to where it says: "Formula One For Sale, Again"

Apparently Liberty are not hitting the targets they were aiming for (apart from axing the grid girls I guess!) so they are thinking about it.


Add to that disquiet among the promoters (https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/race-promoters-criticise-liberty-media/4330145/), & this might be more than just a slow news week rumour.

I know Liberty have been at the helm for only 3 yrs & they're kind of hamstrung on a few things until negotiations start on a new concord agreement, but I've got to say i'm kind of underwhelmed with what they've achieved so far & maybe now they're realising they've bitten off a bit more than they can chew.

I fear the with these engine regs, prize money deals, broadcast set-up's plus a few other things, that the sport may have backed it's into a corner it'll find very, very difficult to get itself out of without suffering major damage to it's lustre & position as the pinnacle of motor sport.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Hungary- 19) - 130 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 336 trophies available, 24 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:44 am 
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This is interesting, it seems that the Sauber name is gone from F1:

https://twitter.com/SauberF1Team/status ... 1937569793


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:54 pm 
owenmahamilton wrote:
This is interesting, it seems that the Sauber name is gone from F1:

https://twitter.com/SauberF1Team/status ... 1937569793

Sad times is what it is!


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