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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:57 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out, it's just common sense. It's like what Charlie Whiting said "It was just a bit unfortunate that he decided to fight for it, which was wholly unacceptable."

Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.


Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?


No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.


Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?


No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame

It shows that Verstappen only has one setting, never lose the corner even if contact ensues, no matter the context.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.


Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?


No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame


You don't get it, Ocon is a car which is 1 lap down and trying to unlap himself against the leading car. He was ahead on the outside of turn 1, Ocon should 100% be backing out of turn 2, you don't go fighting the leader of the race hard. In other words yes he should vanish which would require just to back off. It really is that simple and why he got a penalty. If you believe all drivers unlapping themselves can go as hard racing as they like against the leading drivers then fair play, Haas might aswell time their race to they can race Mercedes as hard as they like.

Max is guilty of one thing and that's presuming a lapped driver would not fight hard, of the drivers on the grid I reckon most would have let Max go at turn 2 as there not stupid, you have your select drivers who are a pain though. I did think Ocon was alright but now I understand it more with the previous beef they have. Max only made one defensive move on the straight, if he went the whole lap or even laps defending like his life depended on it then he would deserve more criticisim.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Common sense says that this manoeuvre was performed there before a number of times, before Max decided to crowd a car needlessly out of the road.


Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?


No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame
Ocon was ahead on turn-in, but no longer at the apex. What I believe is that the stewards and Mr Whiting rely on the explanation given last year or the year before following the Belgian GP, namely that the driver ahead at the apex is allowed to continue on the racing line, and therefore allowed to disregard any car alongside. If that car then remains alongside, it is seen as having caused the resulting accident.

The problem with this, is that I can't find that rule anywhere in the official rules, though I would be perfectly happy to be proven wrong. And consequently, apportioning blame for any race accident on this basis would be disregarding the published rules.

The stewards' report states that Ocon caused the accident, but doesn't quote a rule he is supposed to have sinned against. For the sake of completeness, it is important to know that Verstappen did honour the rule about leaving space to the letter going into turn 1. After which, supposedly, the obscure rule about being allowed to remain on the racing line would come into effect.

But the fact that rule doesn't seem to exist, is something I find troubling. How are fans supposed to understand the sport they love, when the stewards and race control seem to make it all up as they go along?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:00 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame


You don't get it, Ocon is a car which is 1 lap down and trying to unlap himself against the leading car. He was ahead on the outside of turn 1, Ocon should 100% be backing out of turn 2, you don't go fighting the leader of the race hard. In other words yes he should vanish which would require just to back off. It really is that simple and why he got a penalty. If you believe all drivers unlapping themselves can go as hard racing as they like against the leading drivers then fair play, Haas might aswell time their race to they can race Mercedes as hard as they like.

Max is guilty of one thing and that's presuming a lapped driver would not fight hard, of the drivers on the grid I reckon most would have let Max go at turn 2 as there not stupid, you have your select drivers who are a pain though. I did think Ocon was alright but now I understand it more with the previous beef they have. Max only made one defensive move on the straight, if he went the whole lap or even laps defending like his life depended on it then he would deserve more criticisim.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they "don't get it". Where is it in the rules that Ocon was not allowed to do this, it has been asked by others before and your responses haven't shown where in the rules it is as there is no rule.
Many do believe that Ocon being a lap behind gives a mystical difference to whether he is allowed to care about losing time stuck behind another driver meaning he may not be in as high a position as he otherwise would be at the end of the race.
My point of view (which I don't expect you to agree with) is that this was a racing incident, which is giving a bit of leeway to Max for his positioning as had this been Hamilton trying to pass him for the lead and the accident happened in exactly the same way I'm sure Max would have been blamed for the incident.

I (and I'm sure other posters who disagree with your point of view) do get where you are coming from, or if you prefer "get it", we just don't happen to agree with that particular point of view


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:45 pm 
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You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

Not sure if you're on about my views being influenced by my views of Max, if you read other comments of mine about this you'll see I generally like Max's racing and think he has a lot of potential to go far, as I said I'd give it a racing incident.
With Ocon being barely on the track when the impact occurred I wouldn't say he was being overly aggressive. Had he pushed Max to the outside on the exit of the corner leaving that little room on track for Max I'd put that at overly aggressive, being on the inside here after being ahead on the outside in turn one and using as little of the track as he was at the point of impact I'm still surprised that he got punished, but he did so that's that.

I'd still like to know what actual written rule that you believe Ocon broke, as I can't think of any... Just like looking at Vettel on the scales I've looked at the rules and it appears they punished him with what they could in the rule book, they didn't go off script just because they decided to (and I do think the potential danger to the stewards should warrant further action, as the rules don't account for it maybe they should be looked at)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:15 am 
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Ocon was punished for causing a collision. One may well argue who is at fault for the collision but, in my view, if you;re unlapping yourself the onus is on you to do so cleanly, without compromising (or getting involved in a race with) the car / driver you;re unlapping yourself from. Once it was apparent that Verstappen was not backing out, I believe that Ocon should have immediately backed off himself (i.e. between turns 1 and 2).
I'm aware that not everyone shares this view but this is mine. For what it's worth I do think that Verstappen would be better off picking his battles - but I still lay the blame for this with Ocon.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:12 am 
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https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/ ... nNp6f9EVjg

Interesting stuff. Ocon stopped getting blue flags, which shows he was faster than Hamilton. Max acknowledged Ocon was going quickly and Red Bull confirmed he was on fresh tyres.

I can't understand why Max felt the need to go to the inside at T1 to defend his position. Surely after acknowledging the other car was quicker the sensible move would have been to let him go, and not lose time to Hamilton unnecessarily defending his place to a backmarker.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:02 am 
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Toby. wrote:
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html?fbclid=IwAR0M0uYzd_o1jPsxMn1CFJ0-tut5ig824aXHaIpcWbGym9lfInNp6f9EVjg

Interesting stuff. Ocon stopped getting blue flags, which shows he was faster than Hamilton. Max acknowledged Ocon was going quickly and Red Bull confirmed he was on fresh tyres.

I can't understand why Max felt the need to go to the inside at T1 to defend his position. Surely after acknowledging the other car was quicker the sensible move would have been to let him go, and not lose time to Hamilton unnecessarily defending his place to a backmarker.


Inexperience (on Max's part) nailed the final nail in the coffin!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:19 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?


No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame


You don't get it, Ocon is a car which is 1 lap down and trying to unlap himself against the leading car. He was ahead on the outside of turn 1, Ocon should 100% be backing out of turn 2, you don't go fighting the leader of the race hard. In other words yes he should vanish which would require just to back off. It really is that simple and why he got a penalty. If you believe all drivers unlapping themselves can go as hard racing as they like against the leading drivers then fair play, Haas might aswell time their race to they can race Mercedes as hard as they like.

Max is guilty of one thing and that's presuming a lapped driver would not fight hard, of the drivers on the grid I reckon most would have let Max go at turn 2 as there not stupid, you have your select drivers who are a pain though. I did think Ocon was alright but now I understand it more with the previous beef they have. Max only made one defensive move on the straight, if he went the whole lap or even laps defending like his life depended on it then he would deserve more criticisim.

I do get it, but you are stuck to the unlapping of the car. He is allowed to if he is faster. That's that.

It is not without caveats of course, he has to do it cleanly. And it would have been if Max didn't chose to fight a backmarker. Put yourself to Ocon's shoes, you have get just about past Max on the first corner, only to find the door suddenly being shut. I am not convinced that a driver that is ahead going in the first corner thinks he has to lift for the second corner.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:23 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Against the leader of the race from a car a lap behind? You really can't compare :?


No, not against the leader, but I wasn't comparing that. I was comparing the "Ocon was on the outside then should have backed out". I disagree, cars have safely overtaken in that spot many times before. Being on the outside gives you the inside line in the next corner. Absolutely text book overtake on that spot. Provided the other car gives you e-space, there should always leave e-space...


There's no comparison because you can't compare fighting for position to fighting the race leader to unlap yourself, they are literally completely different. Ocon should back out because you don't fight the leader. If you are that much quicker then your get a better exit and DRS for the next straight to make a clean pass.


Why is this so difficult to understand? Ocon was plenty fast, they even stopped blue flagging him. He was clearly ahead of Max on T1, who was made aware that he is on fresh supers, then Max simply turns into him on T2. Did he think that Ocon vanished between T1 and T2? Forget if Ocon should have tried this or not, it is not the real issue. Max clearly sees a car trying to overtake, he gets confirmation, he sees him, yet expects Ocon to disappear from next to him between T1 and T2. There is 0 sense to what Max did, he only has himself to blame
Ocon was ahead on turn-in, but no longer at the apex. What I believe is that the stewards and Mr Whiting rely on the explanation given last year or the year before following the Belgian GP, namely that the driver ahead at the apex is allowed to continue on the racing line, and therefore allowed to disregard any car alongside. If that car then remains alongside, it is seen as having caused the resulting accident.

The problem with this, is that I can't find that rule anywhere in the official rules, though I would be perfectly happy to be proven wrong. And consequently, apportioning blame for any race accident on this basis would be disregarding the published rules.

The stewards' report states that Ocon caused the accident, but doesn't quote a rule he is supposed to have sinned against. For the sake of completeness, it is important to know that Verstappen did honour the rule about leaving space to the letter going into turn 1. After which, supposedly, the obscure rule about being allowed to remain on the racing line would come into effect.

But the fact that rule doesn't seem to exist, is something I find troubling. How are fans supposed to understand the sport they love, when the stewards and race control seem to make it all up as they go along?


This is what I think the stewards thought also. But the only rule broken here is the crowding of another car, not leaving space. The rule for the overtaking backmarker is very vague, that he has to do a clean overtake. My argument is that it would have been clean if the other car didn't turn into him, knowing that he was there.

Meh, I've had enough with this, Max made his bed, I only wish is that he learns something from this and not rely on his impulses only


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:46 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:48 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Ocon was punished for causing a collision. One may well argue who is at fault for the collision but, in my view, if you;re unlapping yourself the onus is on you to do so cleanly, without compromising (or getting involved in a race with) the car / driver you;re unlapping yourself from. Once it was apparent that Verstappen was not backing out, I believe that Ocon should have immediately backed off himself (i.e. between turns 1 and 2).
I'm aware that not everyone shares this view but this is mine. For what it's worth I do think that Verstappen would be better off picking his battles - but I still lay the blame for this with Ocon.

But this is the problem, our views differ (which isn't the problem) and there is nothing in the rules to clear that up.
The rules cover blue flags to get lapped, being allowed to unlap yourself and conduct while passing; it seems from the FIA decision the conduct while battling only applies while passing for a direct position change and there is nothing written about what happens while unlapping yourself.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:55 am 
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Max caused that crash not Ocon.

The only reason there is an argument about it is because of the circumstance around their respective positions.

If it was an overtake for a real position gain the FIA would have punished Max for not leaving enough/any room.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:09 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.


To vote for a race ban for a push is way over the top and is more to do with the driver involved than the incident IMO. So if people can vote a race ban for a push then there is no surprise they blame Max for the crash. It's not about any connection between the shove and the incident but rather how posters view Max, the words that have been used against him shows more about the posters than anything and then why mention his father etc.

If you don't think Ocon was aggressive being a car down against the leader then I'm deffiantly leaving it there, better go and have a word with Whiting and the stewards.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:51 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.


To vote for a race ban for a push is way over the top and is more to do with the driver involved than the incident IMO. So if people can vote a race ban for a push then there is no surprise they blame Max for the crash. It's not about any connection between the shove and the incident but rather how posters view Max, the words that have been used against him shows more about the posters than anything and then why mention his father etc.

If you don't think Ocon was aggressive being a car down against the leader then I'm deffiantly leaving it there, better go and have a word with Whiting and the stewards.

I suspect the call for a race ban is not based on this incident alone, but the long string of collisions that he has had all year and the lack of remorse or even acceptance of his role in any of them. Grosjean was banned for less.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:51 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
you all hate Max!


The funny thing is, I think there are a lot of people who would really like to cheer for Max but are put off by some of his actions. I think the discussion I have seen here has been pretty fair and is certainly not the hate campaign against Verstappen that you are suggesting.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:03 am 
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Lojik wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
you all hate Max!


The funny thing is, I think there are a lot of people who would really like to cheer for Max but are put off by some of his actions. I think the discussion I have seen here has been pretty fair and is certainly not the hate campaign against Verstappen that you are suggesting.

:thumbup:

Max is one of the most exciting young talents to emerge in the past few decades and I like to see talent rewarded with success because, as we can see with Fernando Alonso, in F1 that is not guaranteed. The overriding feeling here is not hate but frustration that such a talented young driver may not fulfill his potential because of such a rampant sense of self-entitlement. Sadly Red Bull are doing nothing to address this serious flaw in his character and if anything his behaviour is getting worse. They took this approach with Vettel as well, I wonder how much that has contributed to his fragile mental state that appears to have cost him the title for the past two years.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Max is IMO the biggest talent I've seen and probably as hardheaded as they come, but this time he even got cleared by the judges.
None off the other driver in top seats have been very happy with a car slower than the others, and he will not be that either.

It's easy when you have everything designed around you, the best team, best car and a solid wingman, nothing from that is the luxoury for Max but I believe it will be some day.
Then other younger driver will moan and bend cars to get there, they all have.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 pm 
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j man wrote:
Lojik wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
you all hate Max!


The funny thing is, I think there are a lot of people who would really like to cheer for Max but are put off by some of his actions. I think the discussion I have seen here has been pretty fair and is certainly not the hate campaign against Verstappen that you are suggesting.

:thumbup:

Max is one of the most exciting young talents to emerge in the past few decades and I like to see talent rewarded with success because, as we can see with Fernando Alonso, in F1 that is not guaranteed. The overriding feeling here is not hate but frustration that such a talented young driver may not fulfill his potential because of such a rampant sense of self-entitlement. Sadly Red Bull are doing nothing to address this serious flaw in his character and if anything his behaviour is getting worse. They took this approach with Vettel as well, I wonder how much that has contributed to his fragile mental state that appears to have cost him the title for the past two years.

Indeed no one would deny Verstappen's talent.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:05 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Ocon was punished for causing a collision. One may well argue who is at fault for the collision but, in my view, if you;re unlapping yourself the onus is on you to do so cleanly, without compromising (or getting involved in a race with) the car / driver you;re unlapping yourself from. Once it was apparent that Verstappen was not backing out, I believe that Ocon should have immediately backed off himself (i.e. between turns 1 and 2).
I'm aware that not everyone shares this view but this is mine. For what it's worth I do think that Verstappen would be better off picking his battles - but I still lay the blame for this with Ocon.

But this is the problem, our views differ (which isn't the problem) and there is nothing in the rules to clear that up.
The rules cover blue flags to get lapped, being allowed to unlap yourself and conduct while passing; it seems from the FIA decision the conduct while battling only applies while passing for a direct position change and there is nothing written about what happens while unlapping yourself.
Yup - I think when it comes to the stewards, a lot of the decision making is down to their interpretation of the rules or, conversely, lack of them for a specific incident. I suspect that Ocon's punishment was given on a somewhat arbitrary (maybe not the best choice of wording but I hope you understand the meaning behind it) basis, and based on a lapped car apparently engaging in a race with the leader (as opposed to a clean overtake).

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Max is IMO the biggest talent I've seen and probably as hardheaded as they come, but this time he even got cleared by the judges.
None off the other driver in top seats have been very happy with a car slower than the others, and he will not be that either.

It's easy when you have everything designed around you, the best team, best car* and a solid wingman, nothing from that is the luxoury for Max but I believe it will be some day.
Then other younger driver will moan and bend cars to get there, they all have.

The same judges that are deemed as being incompetent whenever they penalise Verstappen?

Whenever Verstappen finds himself in the best team, best car and a teammate that can't beat him, will you look to discredit whatever he achieves as well?

*This being purely AnRs' opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:42 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.


Yes. If Verstappen has a bad one and ends up a lap down in a faster car on fresher tyres, he can jolly well wait until the cars he is unlapping deign to let him past. I'm sure Max will exercise great patience if it happens at Singapore for instance.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:45 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.


But the 2 scenarios have a few similarities:

1. Vettel was aware of Ricciardo being on his tail & probably having more speed / grip to try for an overtake. Verstappen too knew Ocon was on fresher tyres & he knew Ocon was trying to unlap himself which is why Verstappen couldn't sake him off as Ocon was behind him for 2 laps before he made the move.
2. Position or not, Just like Vettel, Verstappen had to be aware of the other car by looking in the mirrors.
3. When Ricciardo passed Vettel, Verstappen had to do the same thing. He had to GIVE SPACE & not turn into a car that's making an attempt to overtake him (Max). Max can't always try to be intimidating in being a bully on track.

Sadly, all the praise Verstappen's received in the last 2 years has got him feeling high of himself.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:53 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.


Yes. If Verstappen has a bad one and ends up a lap down in a faster car on fresher tyres, he can jolly well wait until the cars he is unlapping deign to let him past. I'm sure Max will exercise great patience if it happens at Singapore for instance.


He's in a Red Bull which is at least a second quicker than the midfield. He'd unlap and gap them easily.

Ocon needed DRS to be just .3 quicker on one lap and had to pit after 16 laps on the SS. He'd have been holding Max up before the end of S2, its totally different for the top 3 teams and their massive advantage.

Without DRS Max would've lapped him again and then because he had DRS + Merc power again Ocon would've have got close again and we can rinse and repeat for about 5 laps before Ocon's tyres gave in and he waved Lewis and Max by.

It would do nothing for Ocon, he doesn't have the pace to pull away. Max with a damaged car and chasing Lewis went faster than Ocon could with fresh boots and DRS. There's just no contest between a Red Bull and Force India.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:54 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.


To vote for a race ban for a push is way over the top and is more to do with the driver involved than the incident IMO. So if people can vote a race ban for a push then there is no surprise they blame Max for the crash. It's not about any connection between the shove and the incident but rather how posters view Max, the words that have been used against him shows more about the posters than anything and then why mention his father etc.

If you don't think Ocon was aggressive being a car down against the leader then I'm deffiantly leaving it there, better go and have a word with Whiting and the stewards.


There are plenty of incidents to criticise Max over the last 3 years, plenty. The only hope is that he is young and he will learn.

Race ban should discourage physical altercation between drivers, it is not out of spite for Max. Not a good example really.

As for the "aggressive" manoeuvre, I'm not even sure how to reply to that, I'll leave it at that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
Lojik wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
you all hate Max!


The funny thing is, I think there are a lot of people who would really like to cheer for Max but are put off by some of his actions. I think the discussion I have seen here has been pretty fair and is certainly not the hate campaign against Verstappen that you are suggesting.

:thumbup:

Max is one of the most exciting young talents to emerge in the past few decades and I like to see talent rewarded with success because, as we can see with Fernando Alonso, in F1 that is not guaranteed. The overriding feeling here is not hate but frustration that such a talented young driver may not fulfill his potential because of such a rampant sense of self-entitlement. Sadly Red Bull are doing nothing to address this serious flaw in his character and if anything his behaviour is getting worse. They took this approach with Vettel as well, I wonder how much that has contributed to his fragile mental state that appears to have cost him the title for the past two years.

Indeed no one would deny Verstappen's talent.

No one has. It's his mental side/character that has been challenged, not his driving skills.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:14 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
You can defiantly tell alot of people's views are influenced more on how they view Verstappen than the incident, even more so when posters vote for a race ban for a push :lol: I'm at the end of the line now but I guess it's ok for any backmaker to overtake aggressively against any leading driver, I wonder how teams view this and how this will be used going forward. Don't tell me Hamilton will have 2 Saubers and 2 Haas cars pitting strategically now instead of just Kimi.

The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.

Given with Vettel it was for an actual race position it was perhaps how passive he was compared to Verstappen who was merely preventing someone from unlapping themself.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
The push is another matter altogether, the shove would not alter one's view of the race incident, very strange connection there.

And no, it is not ok to overtake aggressively nor did he. He did the normal overtake that has been performed there a number of times, even in this race. He did not divebomb nor did he do anything extreme.

Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.


Yes. If Verstappen has a bad one and ends up a lap down in a faster car on fresher tyres, he can jolly well wait until the cars he is unlapping deign to let him past. I'm sure Max will exercise great patience if it happens at Singapore for instance.


He's in a Red Bull which is at least a second quicker than the midfield. He'd unlap and gap them easily.

Ocon needed DRS to be just .3 quicker on one lap and had to pit after 16 laps on the SS. He'd have been holding Max up before the end of S2, its totally different for the top 3 teams and their massive advantage.

Without DRS Max would've lapped him again and then because he had DRS + Merc power again Ocon would've have got close again and we can rinse and repeat for about 5 laps before Ocon's tyres gave in and he waved Lewis and Max by.

It would do nothing for Ocon, he doesn't have the pace to pull away. Max with a damaged car and chasing Lewis went faster than Ocon could with fresh boots and DRS. There's just no contest between a Red Bull and Force India.

You make a big assumption there, Ocon tried to pass Verstappen upon the notion that he was quicker than Verstappen, if Verstappen had passed Ocon back a lap later then Ocon would no longer have the argument that he was quicker than Verstappen then the stewards might have some concerns about what Ocon was up to?

If you are trying to make an argument for Verstappen being held up, well how much time would he lose having to repeatedly drive defensively against Ocon?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed Ricciardo passed Vettel with a similar move even though Ricciardo was further back than Ocon however we know how aggressively Verstappen chooses to defend his positions.


I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.


Yes. If Verstappen has a bad one and ends up a lap down in a faster car on fresher tyres, he can jolly well wait until the cars he is unlapping deign to let him past. I'm sure Max will exercise great patience if it happens at Singapore for instance.


He's in a Red Bull which is at least a second quicker than the midfield. He'd unlap and gap them easily.

Ocon needed DRS to be just .3 quicker on one lap and had to pit after 16 laps on the SS. He'd have been holding Max up before the end of S2, its totally different for the top 3 teams and their massive advantage.

Without DRS Max would've lapped him again and then because he had DRS + Merc power again Ocon would've have got close again and we can rinse and repeat for about 5 laps before Ocon's tyres gave in and he waved Lewis and Max by.

It would do nothing for Ocon, he doesn't have the pace to pull away. Max with a damaged car and chasing Lewis went faster than Ocon could with fresh boots and DRS. There's just no contest between a Red Bull and Force India.

You make a big assumption there, Ocon tried to pass Verstappen upon the notion that he was quicker than Verstappen, if Verstappen had passed Ocon back a lap later then Ocon would no longer have the argument that he was quicker than Verstappen then the stewards might have some concerns about what Ocon was up to?

If you are trying to make an argument for Verstappen being held up, well how much time would he lose having to repeatedly drive defensively against Ocon?


Why would they have more concern the second time he tried to unlap himself, there isn't a set amount of times you can try and unlap yourself so it shouldn't concern the stewards.

I've no idea how much time or tyre life it would cost pushing harder to try and keep Ocon behind but it would certainly cost something in both and more than he wanted while trying to manage the gap to Lewis. Even sitting behind Ocon and getting DRS benefit hurts his tyres and overheats the car and with Red Bull's record that's a big concern too.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
I'm sorry but how can you compare a move for position to a move trying to unlap yourself, they are totally different.


Yes. If Verstappen has a bad one and ends up a lap down in a faster car on fresher tyres, he can jolly well wait until the cars he is unlapping deign to let him past. I'm sure Max will exercise great patience if it happens at Singapore for instance.


He's in a Red Bull which is at least a second quicker than the midfield. He'd unlap and gap them easily.

Ocon needed DRS to be just .3 quicker on one lap and had to pit after 16 laps on the SS. He'd have been holding Max up before the end of S2, its totally different for the top 3 teams and their massive advantage.

Without DRS Max would've lapped him again and then because he had DRS + Merc power again Ocon would've have got close again and we can rinse and repeat for about 5 laps before Ocon's tyres gave in and he waved Lewis and Max by.

It would do nothing for Ocon, he doesn't have the pace to pull away. Max with a damaged car and chasing Lewis went faster than Ocon could with fresh boots and DRS. There's just no contest between a Red Bull and Force India.

You make a big assumption there, Ocon tried to pass Verstappen upon the notion that he was quicker than Verstappen, if Verstappen had passed Ocon back a lap later then Ocon would no longer have the argument that he was quicker than Verstappen then the stewards might have some concerns about what Ocon was up to?

If you are trying to make an argument for Verstappen being held up, well how much time would he lose having to repeatedly drive defensively against Ocon?


Why would they have more concern the second time he tried to unlap himself, there isn't a set amount of times you can try and unlap yourself so it shouldn't concern the stewards.

I've no idea how much time or tyre life it would cost pushing harder to try and keep Ocon behind but it would certainly cost something in both and more than he wanted while trying to manage the gap to Lewis. Even sitting behind Ocon and getting DRS benefit hurts his tyres and overheats the car and with Red Bull's record that's a big concern too.

I need to go through this again but this time with a bit more thought given on my part.

So the Verstappen who decides not to race against Ocon and let's him through then races like mad to get the place back as soon as possible?

Ocon was lapping faster than Hamilton so why the haste, Verstappen lets Ocon pass then just follows Ocon, while they are lapping faster than Hamilton, Verstappen just sits back, afterall he was looking to save his tyres at the point that Ocon passed him anyway.

If there came a time that Ocon slowed to a point Hamilton was catching or that Verstappen simply wanted to go faster, he simply then just closes up on Ocon gets the blue flags and goes by, at that stage there's no looking to come back past by Ocon with him being slower.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Yes. If Verstappen has a bad one and ends up a lap down in a faster car on fresher tyres, he can jolly well wait until the cars he is unlapping deign to let him past. I'm sure Max will exercise great patience if it happens at Singapore for instance.


He's in a Red Bull which is at least a second quicker than the midfield. He'd unlap and gap them easily.

Ocon needed DRS to be just .3 quicker on one lap and had to pit after 16 laps on the SS. He'd have been holding Max up before the end of S2, its totally different for the top 3 teams and their massive advantage.

Without DRS Max would've lapped him again and then because he had DRS + Merc power again Ocon would've have got close again and we can rinse and repeat for about 5 laps before Ocon's tyres gave in and he waved Lewis and Max by.

It would do nothing for Ocon, he doesn't have the pace to pull away. Max with a damaged car and chasing Lewis went faster than Ocon could with fresh boots and DRS. There's just no contest between a Red Bull and Force India.

You make a big assumption there, Ocon tried to pass Verstappen upon the notion that he was quicker than Verstappen, if Verstappen had passed Ocon back a lap later then Ocon would no longer have the argument that he was quicker than Verstappen then the stewards might have some concerns about what Ocon was up to?

If you are trying to make an argument for Verstappen being held up, well how much time would he lose having to repeatedly drive defensively against Ocon?


Why would they have more concern the second time he tried to unlap himself, there isn't a set amount of times you can try and unlap yourself so it shouldn't concern the stewards.

I've no idea how much time or tyre life it would cost pushing harder to try and keep Ocon behind but it would certainly cost something in both and more than he wanted while trying to manage the gap to Lewis. Even sitting behind Ocon and getting DRS benefit hurts his tyres and overheats the car and with Red Bull's record that's a big concern too.

I need to go through this again but this time with a bit more thought given on my part.

So the Verstappen who decides not to race against Ocon and let's him through then races like mad to get the place back as soon as possible?

Ocon was lapping faster than Hamilton so why the haste, Verstappen lets Ocon pass then just follows Ocon, while they are lapping faster than Hamilton, Verstappen just sits back, afterall he was looking to save his tyres at the point that Ocon passed him anyway.

If there came a time that Ocon slowed to a point Hamilton was catching or that Verstappen simply wanted to go faster, he simply then just closes up on Ocon gets the blue flags and goes by, at that stage there's no looking to come back past by Ocon with him being slower.


He's only 0.4 faster than Max with DRS and a big slipstream so he's not going to go very far in front of Max if he's let through and gets no DRS, and sitting behind him puts extra stress on Max's tyres and engine so you can see why Max wouldn't want to sit behind him. And obviously Max is trying to manage a gap to Lewis so he doesn't want to push if he doesn't have to and stress his tyres/engine more than he wants to.

I dunno if the FI got damaged in the contact but even his pace after yet another stop and more fresh boots wasn't as quick as both Max and Lewis's who's tyres were even older at that point. His best lap was 5ths slower than Lewis's and 8ths slower than Max's despite the even bigger tyre advantage he had than the one that caused the problem.

I just find it strange people honestly think a Force India is going to gap a Red Bull fighting for the win. He was only ever going to force Max to put more punishment on his tyres by either sitting in dirty air before Ocon's tyres duly fell away a few laps later or pulling away from Ocon by pushing his tyres and engine harder than he wanted to and I don't think that's fair on the leader who's controlling the race to have to forget about judging his pace to the guy in second and worry about and respond to a lapped car instead.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He's in a Red Bull which is at least a second quicker than the midfield. He'd unlap and gap them easily.

Ocon needed DRS to be just .3 quicker on one lap and had to pit after 16 laps on the SS. He'd have been holding Max up before the end of S2, its totally different for the top 3 teams and their massive advantage.

Without DRS Max would've lapped him again and then because he had DRS + Merc power again Ocon would've have got close again and we can rinse and repeat for about 5 laps before Ocon's tyres gave in and he waved Lewis and Max by.

It would do nothing for Ocon, he doesn't have the pace to pull away. Max with a damaged car and chasing Lewis went faster than Ocon could with fresh boots and DRS. There's just no contest between a Red Bull and Force India.

You make a big assumption there, Ocon tried to pass Verstappen upon the notion that he was quicker than Verstappen, if Verstappen had passed Ocon back a lap later then Ocon would no longer have the argument that he was quicker than Verstappen then the stewards might have some concerns about what Ocon was up to?

If you are trying to make an argument for Verstappen being held up, well how much time would he lose having to repeatedly drive defensively against Ocon?


Why would they have more concern the second time he tried to unlap himself, there isn't a set amount of times you can try and unlap yourself so it shouldn't concern the stewards.

I've no idea how much time or tyre life it would cost pushing harder to try and keep Ocon behind but it would certainly cost something in both and more than he wanted while trying to manage the gap to Lewis. Even sitting behind Ocon and getting DRS benefit hurts his tyres and overheats the car and with Red Bull's record that's a big concern too.

I need to go through this again but this time with a bit more thought given on my part.

So the Verstappen who decides not to race against Ocon and let's him through then races like mad to get the place back as soon as possible?

Ocon was lapping faster than Hamilton so why the haste, Verstappen lets Ocon pass then just follows Ocon, while they are lapping faster than Hamilton, Verstappen just sits back, afterall he was looking to save his tyres at the point that Ocon passed him anyway.

If there came a time that Ocon slowed to a point Hamilton was catching or that Verstappen simply wanted to go faster, he simply then just closes up on Ocon gets the blue flags and goes by, at that stage there's no looking to come back past by Ocon with him being slower.


He's only 0.4 faster than Max with DRS and a big slipstream so he's not going to go very far in front of Max if he's let through and gets no DRS, and sitting behind him puts extra stress on Max's tyres and engine so you can see why Max wouldn't want to sit behind him. And obviously Max is trying to manage a gap to Lewis so he doesn't want to push if he doesn't have to and stress his tyres/engine more than he wants to.

I dunno if the FI got damaged in the contact but even his pace after yet another stop and more fresh boots wasn't as quick as both Max and Lewis's who's tyres were even older at that point. His best lap was 5ths slower than Lewis's and 8ths slower than Max's despite the even bigger tyre advantage he had than the one that caused the problem.

I just find it strange people honestly think a Force India is going to gap a Red Bull fighting for the win. He was only ever going to force Max to put more punishment on his tyres by either sitting in dirty air before Ocon's tyres duly fell away a few laps later or pulling away from Ocon by pushing his tyres and engine harder than he wanted to and I don't think that's fair on the leader who's controlling the race to have to forget about judging his pace to the guy in second and worry about and respond to a lapped car instead.

The point being as long as Ocon is faster than Hamilton then what's the problem?

We know that Verstappen was a lot faster than Hamilton so at a point that Hamilton starts to be faster than Ocon then Verstappen is going to be even more faster than Ocon and gets blue flagged out of the way.

Your alternative is that Verstappen fights for several laps defending against Ocon basically risking his car in side by side battles and that's the sensible thing to do?

In terms of punishment to Verstappen's tyres, the Red Bull had no such problem with the tyres as witnessed by Ricciardo who sat behind cars for the entire race.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You make a big assumption there, Ocon tried to pass Verstappen upon the notion that he was quicker than Verstappen, if Verstappen had passed Ocon back a lap later then Ocon would no longer have the argument that he was quicker than Verstappen then the stewards might have some concerns about what Ocon was up to?

If you are trying to make an argument for Verstappen being held up, well how much time would he lose having to repeatedly drive defensively against Ocon?


Why would they have more concern the second time he tried to unlap himself, there isn't a set amount of times you can try and unlap yourself so it shouldn't concern the stewards.

I've no idea how much time or tyre life it would cost pushing harder to try and keep Ocon behind but it would certainly cost something in both and more than he wanted while trying to manage the gap to Lewis. Even sitting behind Ocon and getting DRS benefit hurts his tyres and overheats the car and with Red Bull's record that's a big concern too.

I need to go through this again but this time with a bit more thought given on my part.

So the Verstappen who decides not to race against Ocon and let's him through then races like mad to get the place back as soon as possible?

Ocon was lapping faster than Hamilton so why the haste, Verstappen lets Ocon pass then just follows Ocon, while they are lapping faster than Hamilton, Verstappen just sits back, afterall he was looking to save his tyres at the point that Ocon passed him anyway.

If there came a time that Ocon slowed to a point Hamilton was catching or that Verstappen simply wanted to go faster, he simply then just closes up on Ocon gets the blue flags and goes by, at that stage there's no looking to come back past by Ocon with him being slower.


He's only 0.4 faster than Max with DRS and a big slipstream so he's not going to go very far in front of Max if he's let through and gets no DRS, and sitting behind him puts extra stress on Max's tyres and engine so you can see why Max wouldn't want to sit behind him. And obviously Max is trying to manage a gap to Lewis so he doesn't want to push if he doesn't have to and stress his tyres/engine more than he wants to.

I dunno if the FI got damaged in the contact but even his pace after yet another stop and more fresh boots wasn't as quick as both Max and Lewis's who's tyres were even older at that point. His best lap was 5ths slower than Lewis's and 8ths slower than Max's despite the even bigger tyre advantage he had than the one that caused the problem.

I just find it strange people honestly think a Force India is going to gap a Red Bull fighting for the win. He was only ever going to force Max to put more punishment on his tyres by either sitting in dirty air before Ocon's tyres duly fell away a few laps later or pulling away from Ocon by pushing his tyres and engine harder than he wanted to and I don't think that's fair on the leader who's controlling the race to have to forget about judging his pace to the guy in second and worry about and respond to a lapped car instead.

The point being as long as Ocon is faster than Hamilton then what's the problem?

We know that Verstappen was a lot faster than Hamilton so at a point that Hamilton starts to be faster than Ocon then Verstappen is going to be even more faster than Ocon and gets blue flagged out of the way.

Your alternative is that Verstappen fights for several laps defending against Ocon basically risking his car in side by side battles and that's the sensible thing to do?

In terms of punishment to Verstappen's tyres, the Red Bull had no such problem with the tyres as witnessed by Ricciardo who sat behind cars for the entire race.


The problem is a lapped car dictating the pace of the leaders. Max as leader should be the one in control of how quick he wants to go.

My alternative is what Ocon and Force India would've done if it was Lewis and Mercedes leading and not interfere with the leader and try to unlap yourself.

It's still extra stress on them he wouldn't otherwise have. What the actual cost is I've no idea.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Max kind of made that problem for himself with 3 very slow laps.

He came out the pits and was in the low to mid 12’s. Then he did a 13.6,13.3and 13.1 just as Ocon attacked. As soon as he spun he was back in mid and low 12’s with a damaged car too.

It was a short lap as well, he slowed down way too much hence Ocon feeling the need to overtake andbeing anywhere near him in the first place.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... ban%20Ocon


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Max kind of made that problem for himself with 3 very slow laps.

He came out the pits and was in the low to mid 12’s. Then he did a 13.6,13.3and 13.1 just as Ocon attacked. As soon as he spun he was back in mid and low 12’s with a damaged car too.

It was a short lap as well, he slowed down way too much hence Ocon feeling the need to overtake andbeing anywhere near him in the first place.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... ban%20Ocon


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Max kind of made that problem for himself with 3 very slow laps.

He came out the pits and was in the low to mid 12’s. Then he did a 13.6,13.3and 13.1 just as Ocon attacked. As soon as he spun he was back in mid and low 12’s with a damaged car too.

It was a short lap as well, he slowed down way too much hence Ocon feeling the need to overtake andbeing anywhere near him in the first place.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... ban%20Ocon

Basically, once Max got the lead, he went into a mode of nursing the car and just barely going fast enough to keep Lewis behind. He had fresher tires than Lewis but they were also the softer compound and he was trying to be conservative.

Problem was that Ocon wasn't on the same page. Ocon was trying to make up positions so when he came out of the pits, he wanted to push. Max should have just let him through and continued focusing on his race against Hamilton. He took his eye off the ball there.


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