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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:06 pm 
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I don't totally understand the exact relationship between the 2. Does TR do all their own aero and chassis and brakes? Is there any input or help by RBR? What would prevent TR to run a RBR chassis (with TR livery) using the Honda engine? I am pretty sure the RBR guys know exactly how the HP and power delivery compares, but on track I wonder if there would be a way to compare them? If the chassis are much different, this would complicate things. If the chassis were 100% the same, it would be really interesting to compare. RBR sure seems optimistic about the Honda.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:08 am 
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They have to design their own chassis and aero. Brakes are bought from a supplier: no F1 team designs their own brakes.

As far as input, who really knows. But officially, no RBR intellectual property is shared with Toro Rosso to the best of my knowledge. Haas is a good demonstration of the legal limit of how much you can get from another team: suspension elements and gearbox is pretty much it. The rules are very clear on aerodynamic components.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:30 am 
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Exediron wrote:
They have to design their own chassis and aero. Brakes are bought from a supplier: no F1 team designs their own brakes.

As far as input, who really knows. But officially, no RBR intellectual property is shared with Toro Rosso to the best of my knowledge. Haas is a good demonstration of the legal limit of how much you can get from another team: suspension elements and gearbox is pretty much it. The rules are very clear on aerodynamic components.


I posed this hypothetical scenario a few years ago and wondered if this was possible.

What's stopping RB setting up their own design company independent of RBR & TR, for arguments sake lets call it "Yellow Cow Engineering" who would specialise in the design and manufacture of F1 chassis, on a limited basis, to then be sold to a select few F1 teams, maybe a maximum of 2 teams?

Much like the Dallara / Haas relationship, is there anything stopping Dallara from selling the exact same chassis to Sauber for some reason?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:56 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Much like the Dallara / Haas relationship, is there anything stopping Dallara from selling the exact same chassis to Sauber for some reason?

I think Dallara just builds it, while Haas designs it and thus owns the intellectual property.

As far as the rest, I don't think it would be legal for an F1 team to buy their chassis/aero design from anyone outside the allowed parts. It's required for them to design their components themselves. I do not know how it's enforced, however.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:05 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
They have to design their own chassis and aero. Brakes are bought from a supplier: no F1 team designs their own brakes.

As far as input, who really knows. But officially, no RBR intellectual property is shared with Toro Rosso to the best of my knowledge. Haas is a good demonstration of the legal limit of how much you can get from another team: suspension elements and gearbox is pretty much it. The rules are very clear on aerodynamic components.


I posed this hypothetical scenario a few years ago and wondered if this was possible.

What's stopping RB setting up their own design company independent of RBR & TR, for arguments sake lets call it "Yellow Cow Engineering" who would specialise in the design and manufacture of F1 chassis, on a limited basis, to then be sold to a select few F1 teams, maybe a maximum of 2 teams?

Much like the Dallara / Haas relationship, is there anything stopping Dallara from selling the exact same chassis to Sauber for some reason?

I remember Red Bull did that a few years ago, when TR were running Ferrari engines I believe. It was Red Bull Technology as the design company, which was stopped due to rule changes.
They will be following Ferrari/Haas model next year I believe, as they are not sharing as much as Haas are


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
They have to design their own chassis and aero. Brakes are bought from a supplier: no F1 team designs their own brakes.

As far as input, who really knows. But officially, no RBR intellectual property is shared with Toro Rosso to the best of my knowledge. Haas is a good demonstration of the legal limit of how much you can get from another team: suspension elements and gearbox is pretty much it. The rules are very clear on aerodynamic components.


I posed this hypothetical scenario a few years ago and wondered if this was possible.

What's stopping RB setting up their own design company independent of RBR & TR, for arguments sake lets call it "Yellow Cow Engineering" who would specialise in the design and manufacture of F1 chassis, on a limited basis, to then be sold to a select few F1 teams, maybe a maximum of 2 teams?

Much like the Dallara / Haas relationship, is there anything stopping Dallara from selling the exact same chassis to Sauber for some reason?

I remember Red Bull did that a few years ago, when TR were running Ferrari engines I believe. It was Red Bull Technology as the design company, which was stopped due to rule changes.
They will be following Ferrari/Haas model next year I believe, as they are not sharing as much as Haas are

Yes that was in 2008, regarding fears of collusion when has the STR car looked remotely as good as the Red Bull car post 2008, I can think of only 2015 when Red Bull themselves built a donkey.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Much like the Dallara / Haas relationship, is there anything stopping Dallara from selling the exact same chassis to Sauber for some reason?

I think Dallara just builds it, while Haas designs it and thus owns the intellectual property.

As far as the rest, I don't think it would be legal for an F1 team to buy their chassis/aero design from anyone outside the allowed parts. It's required for them to design their components themselves. I do not know how it's enforced, however.

Nooooo…

Dallara designed and built the Haas chassis initially. Haas then learned how to design the chassis and modify refine as they went along. I'm not sure if Dallara is building the chassis again in 2019 or if Haas is assuming all that work themselves for the first time, given they now have a full understanding of the process and are working like a well oiled machine. I don't know why but I feel like Gunther Steiner is being a bit of a hindrance to the team in some capacity. I think he's a nice person, but I just get that feeling from him for some unknown reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:19 pm 
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There is a 'list' of components that can be bought in, one that can come 'off the shelf' and one that has to be made in house.

They are under 'listed parts' in the FIA regs, which are here - https://www.fia.com/file/54256/download ... n=lMCfyJzf

It more or less says you can only get some parts made by a company who do not make the racing car themselves, so rules out Red Bull, and that parts can not be the same as other teams, which again rules them out.

There was a row over Haas using lots of Ferrari parts this year, but some teams look as if they wil use the same system next year from Merc too


@ Exediron
Do Haas design the chassis, or pay someone at Dalara to design it on their behalf?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:16 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
They have to design their own chassis and aero. Brakes are bought from a supplier: no F1 team designs their own brakes.

As far as input, who really knows. But officially, no RBR intellectual property is shared with Toro Rosso to the best of my knowledge. Haas is a good demonstration of the legal limit of how much you can get from another team: suspension elements and gearbox is pretty much it. The rules are very clear on aerodynamic components.


OK, so I wonder what would hold RBR back from "letting" TR come into the garage and photo and scan every piece of the chassis and just say, "hey, they built it themselves". Teams copy each other all the time, High Def TV sure helps, i'd bet.

At any rate, I also wonder if they have access to both engines at the same time with no reps from Renault or Honda and they can dyno them, etc??? I am guessing not, so then the practice sessions are probably the ONLY thing they have to go off of. I am assuming that many of these "new engines" and tweaks at the end of the year are to get as much data and adjusting as possible so for 2019, RBR has as much of an advantage as they can. It almost effectively sabotages TR end of the year, but Gasly sure can't complain, as he will be the one to benefit most.

I also bet that there are computers in both cars, measuring everything under the sun to compare the 2. Actually, I bet this type of thing took place long ago and before the actual announcement happened. Horner has to know what he is getting before the switch. I have a feeling Honda might just get close to the big boys pretty soon. They have a lot of pride and I think that McLaren was just a bad match for them. They also need to hire a few people from AMG and Ferrari, as I am willing to bet there are some shady things going on, that they need to learn how to use and hide as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:21 pm 
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rodH wrote:
Exediron wrote:
They have to design their own chassis and aero. Brakes are bought from a supplier: no F1 team designs their own brakes.

As far as input, who really knows. But officially, no RBR intellectual property is shared with Toro Rosso to the best of my knowledge. Haas is a good demonstration of the legal limit of how much you can get from another team: suspension elements and gearbox is pretty much it. The rules are very clear on aerodynamic components.


OK, so I wonder what would hold RBR back from "letting" TR come into the garage and photo and scan every piece of the chassis and just say, "hey, they built it themselves". Teams copy each other all the time, High Def TV sure helps, i'd bet.

At any rate, I also wonder if they have access to both engines at the same time with no reps from Renault or Honda and they can dyno them, etc??? I am guessing not, so then the practice sessions are probably the ONLY thing they have to go off of. I am assuming that many of these "new engines" and tweaks at the end of the year are to get as much data and adjusting as possible so for 2019, RBR has as much of an advantage as they can. It almost effectively sabotages TR end of the year, but Gasly sure can't complain, as he will be the one to benefit most.

I also bet that there are computers in both cars, measuring everything under the sun to compare the 2. Actually, I bet this type of thing took place long ago and before the actual announcement happened. Horner has to know what he is getting before the switch. I have a feeling Honda might just get close to the big boys pretty soon. They have a lot of pride and I think that McLaren was just a bad match for them. They also need to hire a few people from AMG and Ferrari, as I am willing to bet there are some shady things going on, that they need to learn how to use and hide as well.



They would not need to do that, just release a couple of top engineers to STR taking the knowledge along with them.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Well. It seems Adrian newey is designing the whole rear end next year for red bull which will then go onto the torro Rosso.
Ted mentioned it in the notebook which they are calling synergy. The whole rear end being designed for both teams too use with the new Honda engine next year. (Which allows torro Rosso too redeploy people for the rest of the car)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:05 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
Well. It seems Adrian newey is designing the whole rear end next year for red bull which will then go onto the torro Rosso.
Ted mentioned it in the notebook which they are calling synergy. The whole rear end being designed for both teams too use with the new Honda engine next year. (Which allows torro Rosso too redeploy people for the rest of the car)


Considering how wrong Sky commentators are I won't take that as gospel.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Well. It seems Adrian newey is designing the whole rear end next year for red bull which will then go onto the torro Rosso.
Ted mentioned it in the notebook which they are calling synergy. The whole rear end being designed for both teams too use with the new Honda engine next year. (Which allows torro Rosso too redeploy people for the rest of the car)


Considering how wrong Sky commentators are I won't take that as gospel.


I've heard this elsewhere too, but i'm sure that wouldn't be allowed under what the rules currently are. Perhaps the term 'rear end' is being used somewhat incorrectly, and perhaps only means the way the engine/gearbox/drivetrain is mounted. If they do share an identical rear end, it kinda stands to reason that the front end would need to be very, very similar too to maximise the aero, and given all the 'white Ferrari' nonsense we've had about the Haas this year, I can't see that scenario coming to pass at all.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Well. It seems Adrian newey is designing the whole rear end next year for red bull which will then go onto the torro Rosso.
Ted mentioned it in the notebook which they are calling synergy. The whole rear end being designed for both teams too use with the new Honda engine next year. (Which allows torro Rosso too redeploy people for the rest of the car)


Considering how wrong Sky commentators are I won't take that as gospel.


I've heard this elsewhere too, but i'm sure that wouldn't be allowed under what the rules currently are. Perhaps the term 'rear end' is being used somewhat incorrectly, and perhaps only means the way the engine/gearbox/drivetrain is mounted. If they do share an identical rear end, it kinda stands to reason that the front end would need to be very, very similar too to maximise the aero, and given all the 'white Ferrari' nonsense we've had about the Haas this year, I can't see that scenario coming to pass at all.

I believe what they will be referring to is all the non listed parts of the gearbox and suspension (and any others there may be), with TR doing their own bodywork as required by the regs. It would make sense for both teams to do this and potential make life easier for Honda...


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