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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:45 am 
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AnRs wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Dependes on the car off course, since the domination has been so complete since 2012 now by either Red Bull, Mercedes and this year a combination off Merc/Ferrari no other driver has had a chance to establish a real challenge or even come close to a podium.

We always tend to assume what happened will happen so in that way a new Merc 2019 contender is highly likely and Bottas perhaps wingman again so to believe that Ferrari with Vettel/Leclerc can put together a challenge looks less likely.

This is perhaps what puts people off F1 now, it's too predictable, for any team outside Merc spend that amount off money wont happen, so assume another 2017 IMO with Bottas as wingman again and Ferrari a bit behind and Red Bull more behind.

This has been the case for decades


Have a look at the period 2005-2012 and I see it different, but after 2013 and onwards

What, domination of the top teams? This has always been the case. Brawn broke the mould coming out of nowhere, but in exceptional circumstances. Generally, teams rise slowly and dominate. Then they fall. It's usually 2-3 teams that they are always up there, the ones with the biggest budgets. And that doesn't even guarantee a top spot either, as see with Toyota.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:55 am 
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The Achilles heal of Mercedes this year seems to be their tire management. Since the middle of the year, when they have been using the new rear wheels WITH the cooling feature, they are hard to beat. Merc reportedly had the cooling ducts blocked at Austin and Mexico in response to a threat from Ferrari to protest the wheels. In both races they had tire management issues. If they can push the car and keep tires under it, results like they had from Hungary to Japan look very likely.



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:59 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
The Achilles heal of Mercedes this year seems to be their tire management. Since the middle of the year, when they have been using the new rear wheels WITH the cooling feature, they are hard to beat. Merc reportedly had the cooling ducts blocked at Austin and Mexico in response to a threat from Ferrari to protest the wheels. In both races they had tire management issues. If they can push the car and keep tires under it, results like they had from Hungary to Japan look very likely.



Source YouTube


In Mexico it was the front tyres that suffered not the rear ones.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
The Achilles heal of Mercedes this year seems to be their tire management. Since the middle of the year, when they have been using the new rear wheels WITH the cooling feature, they are hard to beat. Merc reportedly had the cooling ducts blocked at Austin and Mexico in response to a threat from Ferrari to protest the wheels. In both races they had tire management issues. If they can push the car and keep tires under it, results like they had from Hungary to Japan look very likely.



Source YouTube

I thought the issue was with the front tyres in Mexico?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:22 pm 
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I think is going to be a Mercedes show next year. Ferrari will fight with RB.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:00 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
The Achilles heal of Mercedes this year seems to be their tire management. Since the middle of the year, when they have been using the new rear wheels WITH the cooling feature, they are hard to beat. Merc reportedly had the cooling ducts blocked at Austin and Mexico in response to a threat from Ferrari to protest the wheels. In both races they had tire management issues. If they can push the car and keep tires under it, results like they had from Hungary to Japan look very likely.



Source YouTube


In Mexico it was the front tyres that suffered not the rear ones.



Source YouTube

Merc could have run off their front tires with a setup that tried to protect the rears which didn't have the cooling. Not definitive but could be part of their problems in Austin and Mexico.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:26 am 
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Robot wrote:
I think is going to be a Mercedes show next year. Ferrari will fight with RB.


"Mattia Binotto has turned out to be a great technical director and we’re hearing that they are very excited at Maranello about the initial simulated performance of the 2019 car. It would be no surprise if there were not some highly original solutions to the demands of the new 2019 aero regs."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... p-mercedes

Ferrari have the engine to fight Mercedes, that much is obvious. The engine is just as powerful, just as fuel efficient and just as reliable.

Let's see what kind of chassis they come up with.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:37 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Robot wrote:
I think is going to be a Mercedes show next year. Ferrari will fight with RB.


"Mattia Binotto has turned out to be a great technical director and we’re hearing that they are very excited at Maranello about the initial simulated performance of the 2019 car. It would be no surprise if there were not some highly original solutions to the demands of the new 2019 aero regs."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... p-mercedes

Ferrari have the engine to fight Mercedes, that much is obvious. The engine is just as powerful, just as fuel efficient and just as reliable.

Let's see what kind of chassis they come up with.

Yeah Ferrari are not going away anytime soon , after a blip in 2016 they have got stronger every year since and had the car to win the titles this year.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:35 pm 
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In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.

No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.

No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.

They'll want to run them at least once before the end of the year though, so that any potential protest doesn't happen in Melbourne 2019. They wouldn't want to design the front around a concept that hasn't been confirmed to be legal.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.



You know this for fact?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.



You know this for fact?


The piece is embedded above you can have a look for yourself. I would say what Option wrote was a pretty factual representation of what was covered in the piece.

- Merc having previously ran holey wheels have not been running them recently.
- FIA no about the holey wheels and have had not had an issue with them.
- Merc not running them as they don't want Ferrari have reason to lodge a formal protest.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.

No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.

They'll want to run them at least once before the end of the year though, so that any potential protest doesn't happen in Melbourne 2019. They wouldn't want to design the front around a concept that hasn't been confirmed to be legal.


Does that mean that even though the FIA don't have a problem that a protest from another team can trigger a revue then? I'm asking as Mercedes seem to have had circuits where they had unexpected failures to get the tyres to work and vice versa that might be the explanation, if they have got to the bottom of this then next year with the cars so close it will be the drivers that make the difference.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.



You know this for fact?


The piece is embedded above you can have a look for yourself. I would say what Option wrote was a pretty factual representation of what was covered in the piece.

- Merc having previously ran holey wheels have not been running them recently.
- FIA no about the holey wheels and have had not had an issue with them.
- Merc not running them as they don't want Ferrari have reason to lodge a formal protest.


Thanks, Mikey.

So basically, it is a Merc fear that Ferrari might protest the wheels, not that Ferrari has said that the will/have done so?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.

No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.

They'll want to run them at least once before the end of the year though, so that any potential protest doesn't happen in Melbourne 2019. They wouldn't want to design the front around a concept that hasn't been confirmed to be legal.


The best thing would be to run them in Brazil, a track that hasn't been as good for them, then if they do get dq'd they will be confident of wrapping it up in Abu Dhabi anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.

No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.

They'll want to run them at least once before the end of the year though, so that any potential protest doesn't happen in Melbourne 2019. They wouldn't want to design the front around a concept that hasn't been confirmed to be legal.

Ideally perhaps in Abu Dhabi if the WCC title is wrapped up?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:03 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.



You know this for fact?


The piece is embedded above you can have a look for yourself. I would say what Option wrote was a pretty factual representation of what was covered in the piece.

- Merc having previously ran holey wheels have not been running them recently.
- FIA no about the holey wheels and have had not had an issue with them.
- Merc not running them as they don't want Ferrari have reason to lodge a formal protest.

Yeah I would have thought that was general knowledge by now?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:05 am 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.



You know this for fact?


The piece is embedded above you can have a look for yourself. I would say what Option wrote was a pretty factual representation of what was covered in the piece.

- Merc having previously ran holey wheels have not been running them recently.
- FIA no about the holey wheels and have had not had an issue with them.
- Merc not running them as they don't want Ferrari have reason to lodge a formal protest.


Thanks, Mikey.

So basically, it is a Merc fear that Ferrari might protest the wheels, not that Ferrari has said that the will/have done so?

Mercedes were informed by the FIA that there was a chance that Ferrari would protest the wheels if used.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:05 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
In the piece on Mercedes wheels it seems that Mercedes blocked the ventilation holes even though the FIA deemed them OK to circumvent Ferrari protesting, presumably because they only needed a few points to win the WDC.

So does that mean they will run the ventilation now in the last 2 races and how will this affect the teams with the new aero rules next year? Or don't we know yet.

No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.

They'll want to run them at least once before the end of the year though, so that any potential protest doesn't happen in Melbourne 2019. They wouldn't want to design the front around a concept that hasn't been confirmed to be legal.


The best thing would be to run them in Brazil, a track that hasn't been as good for them, then if they do get dq'd they will be confident of wrapping it up in Abu Dhabi anyway.

Surely that's not worth the risk?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:55 am 
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Lets say that Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull all have cars of similar performance, that would mean that the points difference at the end of the season would be small say within 10 points between all the drivers and that there is no one dominant driver for whatever reason.

Won't the WDC winner be from the team that instigates team orders from the start otherwise team mates are taking points from each other.

Doesn't that give Mercedes and Red Bull an advantage in that they know who their number 1 driver is. We know that Bottas is more accepting of team orders. If Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, similarly with Red Bull but you would expect Verstappen to grab the top spot.

What I'm saying is that team management off track will have as big a say in who wins the WDC as the drivers themselves if the cars have performance parity.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Lets say that Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull all have cars of similar performance, that would mean that the points difference at the end of the season would be small say within 10 points between all the drivers and that there is no one dominant driver for whatever reason.

Won't the WDC winner be from the team that instigates team orders from the start otherwise team mates are taking points from each other.

Doesn't that give Mercedes and Red Bull an advantage in that they know who their number 1 driver is. We know that Bottas is more accepting of team orders. If Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, similarly with Red Bull but you would expect Verstappen to grab the top spot.

What I'm saying is that team management off track will have as big a say in who wins the WDC as the drivers themselves if the cars have performance parity.

I don't think it will be that simple, drivers have their own careers to think about as well, Bottas in particular has Ocon looming over him plus a performance clause in his contract which I assume means he can't afford to finish too many points behind Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Lets say that Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull all have cars of similar performance, that would mean that the points difference at the end of the season would be small say within 10 points between all the drivers and that there is no one dominant driver for whatever reason.

Won't the WDC winner be from the team that instigates team orders from the start otherwise team mates are taking points from each other.

Doesn't that give Mercedes and Red Bull an advantage in that they know who their number 1 driver is. We know that Bottas is more accepting of team orders. If Ferrari let LeClerc and Vettel race they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, similarly with Red Bull but you would expect Verstappen to grab the top spot.

What I'm saying is that team management off track will have as big a say in who wins the WDC as the drivers themselves if the cars have performance parity.

I don't think it will be that simple, drivers have their own careers to think about as well, Bottas in particular has Ocon looming over him plus a performance clause in his contract which I assume means he can't afford to finish too many points behind Hamilton?


Yeah I don’t see any of the top 3 teams going for team orders initially. I think the first few races are going to be critical for Bottas and Gasly especially. They can’t fall too much behind their teammates or their job will be on the line. Falling behind usually lead to team orders. And whoever starts receiving team orders will be in danger of losing their seat in 2020. I don’t think Leclerc will be in any trouble unless he is miles off, which I highly doubt. Seb is likely more so as if he doesn’t beat Leclerc it won’t be good for him.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.


I read one theory a while ago that Ferrari want to protest as they would quite like to use this solution themselves but want to test the legality waters with Mercedes before comitting. If this were true (big IF) then maybe Mercedes feel they can complete the season without running the wheels again so Ferrari will need to seek their own clarification next season. Of course it's more likely Merc just want to secure both titles before runing them again.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I believe they are going to keep on not running them until they win the WCC.


I read one theory a while ago that Ferrari want to protest as they would quite like to use this solution themselves but want to test the legality waters with Mercedes before comitting. If this were true (big IF) then maybe Mercedes feel they can complete the season without running the wheels again so Ferrari will need to seek their own clarification next season. Of course it's more likely Merc just want to secure both titles before runing them again.

I am a bit sceptical with this, that's not how F1 works normally. Normally they just do it until they get caught and it gets banned.

Especially if another team is already running it, and especially-especially if they are getting good results with it and the FIA has somehow deemed it legal, then they'd be on it by now.

I'd also dare to say that there is nothing special to commit to it, Mercedes "solved it" by just pouring some silicone to the holes and plugging them, it's not a very difficult construction that would potentially need an extremely difficult and expensive rectifying.


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