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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 22%  22%  [ 14 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 43%  43%  [ 28 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 31%  31%  [ 20 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 65
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
That's because when it started Vettel had 12 more wins than Hamilton and Mercedes were only months into the start of their domination, In respect to Vettel still leading I daresay hardly anyone has been able to vote these past 3 years.


Well that is kind of my point. People look back and extrapolate from recent and maybe not so recent history.

The fact that Vettel is still leading is a product of the fact that the pole got fossilized back in 2014 when Vettel still had a lead in the wins column and all the regulars took their one shot at voting. The world looks a lot different today.

I do think it humorous that the predictive error is preserved for all to see. :lol:

I will be interested in looking back at this pole when we reach the end of 2019 to see how many got it right and how many could not have gotten it more wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.


Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )

2007 and 2010 seriously?


Crashed away any title chansen.

Back to Leclerc just hope Ferrari don't do a Merc and throw everything behind one driver, suspect that wont be Charles then


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's because when it started Vettel had 12 more wins than Hamilton and Mercedes were only months into the start of their domination, In respect to Vettel still leading I daresay hardly anyone has been able to vote these past 3 years.


Well that is kind of my point. People look back and extrapolate from recent and maybe not so recent history.

The fact that Vettel is still leading is a product of the fact that the pole got fossilized back in 2014 when Vettel still had a lead in the wins column and all the regulars took their one shot at voting. The world looks a lot different today.

I do think it humorous that the predictive error is preserved for all to see. :lol:

I will be interested in looking back at this pole when we reach the end of 2019 to see how many got it right and how many could not have gotten it more wrong.

Well even then it's only 54% to Vettel so no landslide as such, we are not going to know the answer until long after 2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:57 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.


Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )

2007 and 2010 seriously?


Crashed away any title chansen.

Back to Leclerc just hope Ferrari don't do a Merc and throw everything behind one driver, suspect that wont be Charles then

Hamilton had fewer crashes than his other title rivals.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's because when it started Vettel had 12 more wins than Hamilton and Mercedes were only months into the start of their domination, In respect to Vettel still leading I daresay hardly anyone has been able to vote these past 3 years.


Well that is kind of my point. People look back and extrapolate from recent and maybe not so recent history.

The fact that Vettel is still leading is a product of the fact that the pole got fossilized back in 2014 when Vettel still had a lead in the wins column and all the regulars took their one shot at voting. The world looks a lot different today.

I do think it humorous that the predictive error is preserved for all to see. :lol:

I will be interested in looking back at this pole when we reach the end of 2019 to see how many got it right and how many could not have gotten it more wrong.

Well even then it's only 54% to Vettel so no landslide as such, we are not going to know the answer until long after 2019.


Currently adding up the two options with Vettel winning I get 66% and the two options with Leclerc getting the edge, adding up to 33%. (1% rounding error)

With two thirds of those voting, going for Seb, I would say it is a marked endorsement of Vettel remaining as the better driver at Team Red for the duration of 2019.

Personally I voted for Vettel by a slim margin. I am hoping that which ever way it goes, that the battle will be on at Ferrari and also for the overall championship. I don't particularly like blowouts.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I suppose an appropriate question to ask would be; what manner of heroics can restore Vettel's reputation at this point? A season like this will be hard to bounce back from and beating Charles will more likely impact Charles's reputation than Vettel's.




Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )

2007 and 2010 seriously?


Crashed away any title chansen.

Back to Leclerc just hope Ferrari don't do a Merc and throw everything behind one driver, suspect that wont be Charles then

Hamilton had fewer crashes than his other title rivals.



You would still wrote 50 posts about them if it was Vettel Who did them :)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:35 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Could Lewis bounce back from 2007, 2010 and 2011 i suspect Vettel can, perhaps by being given a dominant car and a #2 teammate?

The butthurt Vettel has caused is hilarious : )

2007 and 2010 seriously?


Crashed away any title chansen.

Back to Leclerc just hope Ferrari don't do a Merc and throw everything behind one driver, suspect that wont be Charles then

Hamilton had fewer crashes than his other title rivals.



You would still wrote 50 posts about them if it was Vettel Who did them :)

What would be the relevance of posting that a driver having fewer crashes than his rivals in the context of that being a negative post about him?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What would be the relevance of posting that a driver having fewer crashes than his rivals in the context of that being a negative post about him?


I checked it up, he had more..


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:44 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What would be the relevance of posting that a driver having fewer crashes than his rivals in the context of that being a negative post about him?


I checked it up, he had more..


Please show your workings.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What would be the relevance of posting that a driver having fewer crashes than his rivals in the context of that being a negative post about him?


I checked it up, he had more..


Please show your workings.



2007. Kimi had 2 ret by mechanical, 0 crash


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What would be the relevance of posting that a driver having fewer crashes than his rivals in the context of that being a negative post about him?


I checked it up, he had more..


Please show your workings.

Honestly it's a mistake to engage this person. We've had trolls in here but this guy is the current standard bearer.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:09 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What would be the relevance of posting that a driver having fewer crashes than his rivals in the context of that being a negative post about him?


I checked it up, he had more..


Please show your workings.



2007. Kimi had 2 ret by mechanical, 0 crash


And 2010?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Kimi and Lewis have nothing to do with the topic. Focus on Charles and Seb please.

Those of you making this personal should know better by now too.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:06 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Kimi and Lewis have nothing to do with the topic. Focus on Charles and Seb please.

Those of you making this personal should know better by now too.


:thumbup: :nod:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:49 am 
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I am looking forward to this match up, it's going to be fascinating.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:02 am 
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Frits van Amersfoort is team principle of the Formula 3 team Amersfoort Racing, and he’s worked with both Verstappen and Leclerc. He said that Max and Charles are “totally different, but both equally talented”. Those are big words from a Dutch TP no less.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:25 pm 
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I personally never liked Vettel. But you dont win 4 championships back to back even in dominant car without being world class driver, specially the way he has won 2 close ones by performing in last race when it mattered the most with all the pressure in the world on him to win.
The Ferrari misfortunes of last 2 years are only partially due to Vettel. The car clearly tapered off at the end 2 years in a row. Not to mention how unlucky Ferrari were with the bad luck with the incidents, safety car and pit stop windows in the beginning of the year.
If Ferrari makes a car that can be consistently as far or little faster than Mercedes in all different types of tracks, i still believe Vettel will edge out highly rated LeClerc at this point to win the championship.

LeClearc is clearly the best new driver we have had in years along with Max, but these young drivers will need time to get into championship winning mode. When paired with multiple championship winning team mate, its difficult to win championships. Not even Hamilton managed to do that in his rookie year and had to wait until he was paired with weaker driver.
Its all about championships when it comes to top teams. Beating your teammate is not enough, you have to beat everyone else too, and that kinda pressure only few can handle. We will see how Leclerc fares, but people really need to be ready to cut him some slack.

What excites me more as a Ferrari supporter is that I dont expect Leclerc to be as much behind Vettel as Kimi used to be until he found his mojo somewhat this year. And that is valuable. Mercedes has had Bottas to play rear gunner and before him Rosberg was good enough to be right on tail of Hamilton if not beating him outright. Ferrari hasnt had that luxury in decade. All second drivers have been way worse than both Alonso and Vettel and were never in a position to help with championship often, leave alone winning one. Mass was used once or twice, but not as often because he was usually way behind.

I just hope Ferrari pit wall and race engineers get their act together.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Gosh Seb’s stock is at an all time low!

Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.

I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.

It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.

I had Vettel as being better 2011-2013.


I perhaps did in 2011 because of how comprehensively Vettel beat a previously competitive Webber and how frazzled Hamilton seemed mentally. But Hamilton beating Button in 2012 by what would have been a damning marging but for reliability woes changed that.

I never rated Vettel above Alonso though. Even in 2013 when Vettel was winning all those races in a row, it was so hard to judge as he had no competition from within. Webber was so down and out that he couldn't keep Grosjean behind at times.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:52 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
I personally never liked Vettel. But you dont win 4 championships back to back even in dominant car without being world class driver, specially the way he has won 2 close ones by performing in last race when it mattered the most with all the pressure in the world on him to win.
The Ferrari misfortunes of last 2 years are only partially due to Vettel. The car clearly tapered off at the end 2 years in a row. Not to mention how unlucky Ferrari were with the bad luck with the incidents, safety car and pit stop windows in the beginning of the year.
If Ferrari makes a car that can be consistently as far or little faster than Mercedes in all different types of tracks, i still believe Vettel will edge out highly rated LeClerc at this point to win the championship.

LeClearc is clearly the best new driver we have had in years along with Max, but these young drivers will need time to get into championship winning mode. When paired with multiple championship winning team mate, its difficult to win championships. Not even Hamilton managed to do that in his rookie year and had to wait until he was paired with weaker driver.
Its all about championships when it comes to top teams. Beating your teammate is not enough, you have to beat everyone else too, and that kinda pressure only few can handle. We will see how Leclerc fares, but people really need to be ready to cut him some slack.

What excites me more as a Ferrari supporter is that I dont expect Leclerc to be as much behind Vettel as Kimi used to be until he found his mojo somewhat this year. And that is valuable. Mercedes has had Bottas to play rear gunner and before him Rosberg was good enough to be right on tail of Hamilton if not beating him outright. Ferrari hasnt had that luxury in decade. All second drivers have been way worse than both Alonso and Vettel and were never in a position to help with championship often, leave alone winning one. Mass was used once or twice, but not as often because he was usually way behind.

I just hope Ferrari pit wall and race engineers get their act together.

Ferrari gave Vettel that kind of car this season, the Ferrari did taper off a bit both seasons but up to that point Vettel should have been leading both seasons, in particular this season when Vettel had the better car but was getting beat, what you seem to be wanting Vettel to have is a superior car in just about every race?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:58 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Probably. After 2014 his stock crashed, but people were willing to write it off as a one-time occurrence - he was trying to leave the team, or he was burned out after winning four in a row, or he was't motivated when the car wasn't title-capable, etc.

But after two seasons of facing Hamilton in relatively equal machinery, there's no doubt in most people's minds any longer: Vettel is not at Hamilton's level over a whole season. His stock will, in my opinion, never recover to the heights it was at post-2013, even if he wins the title for Ferrari in the future.

At the same time, Leclerc's stock has shot upwards faster than a dotcom stock in the late 1990s. That crossover is manifested in this thread, where Leclerc's stock has actually already reached a point higher than Vettel's plummeting valuation.

I also think F1 fans in general have very short memories. Beginning of the season I remember seeing a lot of Vettel>Hamilton sentiment when Hamilton wasn't performing that well against Bottas and Vettel was setting lots of pole positions (despite having a car advantage).

Contrast that to post Italy when Leclerc was confirmed and I legitimately saw a lot of people saying they should have dropped Vettel instead. Running a poll on a drivers stock is largely influenced by the last 5 races IMO.

It's all relative. What you've described are largely sentiments from casual fans. My sense is that most knowledgeable fans have never honestly thought that Vettel was a better driver than Hamilton. I know I certainly never did and that includes the 4 year period of domination by Vettel and Red Bull. I'd actually be interested to see which forumers ever had Vettel pegged as a better driver than Hamilton. Just out of curiosity.

I had Vettel as being better 2011-2013.


I perhaps did in 2011 because of how comprehensively Vettel beat a previously competitive Webber and how frazzled Hamilton seemed mentally. But Hamilton beating Button in 2012 by what would have been a damning marging but for reliability woes changed that.

I never rated Vettel above Alonso though. Even in 2013 when Vettel was winning all those races in a row, it was so hard to judge as he had no competition from within. Webber was so down and out that he couldn't keep Grosjean behind at times.

Indeed regarding 2012 but let's not forget at that point Vettel himself had no weak seasons, then in 2013 wasn't a particular strong season for Hamilton as he settled into his new team.

In regard to Alonso I had him as being better than Vettel after 2012, but with Vettel's 4th straight title in 2013 and the 9 straight wins, the constant achievements finally had me placing him as the best driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:06 am 
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What I like about Vettel especially in a car that he is at one with is you are never in doubt about the outcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am 
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Rockie wrote:
What I like about Vettel especially in a car that he is at one with is you are never in doubt about the outcome.

Speaking as a Vettel fan I wish that had been true this season :-((

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What I like about Vettel especially in a car that he is at one with is you are never in doubt about the outcome.

Speaking as a Vettel fan I wish that had been true this season :-((


Well there's next year ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What I like about Vettel especially in a car that he is at one with is you are never in doubt about the outcome.

Speaking as a Vettel fan I wish that had been true this season :-((


Well there's next year ;)

Indeed! :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:47 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
I personally never liked Vettel. But you dont win 4 championships back to back even in dominant car without being world class driver, specially the way he has won 2 close ones by performing in last race when it mattered the most with all the pressure in the world on him to win.


From the other hand, you can't find less impressive wins than 2011 and 2013... really this car was like 1s per lap faster than others. 2010 and 2012 were close but why? Because Alonso did a way better job than Vettel as a driver, gap between cars was still big enough it shouldn't be that close at all. There was no DRS in 2010 and Alosno just couldn't overtake Petrov... if DRS was introduced 1 year earlier or last race would be Brazil instead of Abu Zhabi he would lose the WDC... So overall those 4 years - yes good performance, but far from great.
And all those spins and contacts are also not a coincidence. Vettel is great when driving from pole and in the lead with dominant car but he always have been a bit mistake prone. First time you could see this in Melbourne 2009.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:24 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
What I like about Vettel especially in a car that he is at one with is you are never in doubt about the outcome.

As in the out and out best car because there wasn't much wrong with the Ferrari this year, it was more than good enough to win the title.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:33 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.


It's quite a big period of time for one driver to out perform another over and still not be considered better. That was almost half their careers at that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:42 pm 
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Vettel wasn’t merely better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013, he was better by a huge margin. In 2011 and 2013, Vettel was driving on the same level as Hamilton in 2018. Meanwhile Hamilton had many accidents in 2011 and many off-races in 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.

Would I be correct in assuming that you were a Hamilton fan in 2011-2013? I think 'most people' has to exclude the fans of the drivers involved. Those people are unlikely to be objective in their analysis.

Speaking for myself, I thought Hamilton and Vettel were both overrated in that era. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:03 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.

Would I be correct in assuming that you were a Hamilton fan in 2011-2013? I think 'most people' has to exclude the fans of the drivers involved. Those people are unlikely to be objective in their analysis.

Speaking for myself, I thought Hamilton and Vettel were both overrated in that era. 8)


Hamilton in 2011 lost to Button, then won slighlty again Button and Rosberg in next 2 years (but being outpointed overall by Button during their 3 seasons together in Macca) so that were not Hamilton's best years and he was rather unimpressive. I agree that most of people could rate Vettel higher in those years, but for me the best driver in those years by far was Alonso even if he didn't win a single WDC.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Mayox wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.

Would I be correct in assuming that you were a Hamilton fan in 2011-2013? I think 'most people' has to exclude the fans of the drivers involved. Those people are unlikely to be objective in their analysis.

Speaking for myself, I thought Hamilton and Vettel were both overrated in that era. 8)


Hamilton in 2011 lost to Button, then won slighlty again Button and Rosberg in next 2 years (but being outpointed overall by Button during their 3 seasons together in Macca) so that were not Hamilton's best years and he was rather unimpressive. I agree that most of people could rate Vettel higher in those years, but for me the best driver in those years by far was Alonso even if he didn't win a single WDC.

Did you actually watch the 2010 and 2012 seasons or just googled the points?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:40 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel wasn’t merely better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013, he was better by a huge margin. In 2011 and 2013, Vettel was driving on the same level as Hamilton in 2018. Meanwhile Hamilton had many accidents in 2011 and many off-races in 2013.


In 2011 and 2013 Vettel was NOT driving on the same level as Hamilton in 2018. In neither of those years did he see off a competitor in a roughly equal car, as Hamilton has done this year. In those years Vettel had what he wanted. He could have driven like that this year if his car had had three tenths over the Mercedes. If we look at all their years together, Hamilton drove better in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 and at best 2015 is probably a draw. Now some of you are saying that two years of being outperformed in eleven is a large enough period as to put Hamilton's superiority into doubt? If you wanted to say this at the end of 2013 when they had only completed 6 years of grand prix racing, that might have been fine, but not now.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:16 am 
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Vettel was absolutely relentless in 2011. He took pole position on at least three occasions when McLaren looked favourites in Q3 (Hungary, Japan, Abu Dhabi). He broke the all time pole record in a car that was nowhere near the most dominant of all time. His qualifying gaps over Webber that season were also absurd. In 2013, Vettel made zero mistakes and had zero off-weekends. He was leading the championship by 40 points going into the summer break, and that was before Red Bull was even dominant.

Vettels 2011 and 2013 are at least as good as Hamilton’s 2018.

breathemyexhaust wrote:
If we look at all their years together, Hamilton drove better in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 and at best 2015 is probably a draw. Now some of you are saying that two years of being outperformed in eleven is a large enough period as to put Hamilton's superiority into doubt? If you wanted to say this at the end of 2013 when they had only completed 6 years of grand prix racing, that might have been fine, but not now.

2007 is not even a remotely fair comparison. Vettel participated in less than half of the total races and drove a backmarker car.

I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that Hamilton was better in 2008 or 2009? Hamilton made at least as many mistakes as Vettel did in those years, and Vettel was just as dominant over his teammates speedwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:29 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was absolutely relentless in 2011. He took pole position on at least three occasions when McLaren looked favourites in Q3 (Hungary, Japan, Abu Dhabi). He broke the all time pole record in a car that was nowhere near the most dominant of all time. His qualifying gaps over Webber that season were also absurd. In 2013, Vettel made zero mistakes and had zero off-weekends. He was leading the championship by 40 points going into the summer break, and that was before Red Bull was even dominant.

Vettels 2011 and 2013 are at least as good as Hamilton’s 2018.

breathemyexhaust wrote:
If we look at all their years together, Hamilton drove better in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 and at best 2015 is probably a draw. Now some of you are saying that two years of being outperformed in eleven is a large enough period as to put Hamilton's superiority into doubt? If you wanted to say this at the end of 2013 when they had only completed 6 years of grand prix racing, that might have been fine, but not now.

2007 is not even a remotely fair comparison. Vettel participated in less than half of the total races and drove a backmarker car.

I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that Hamilton was better in 2008 or 2009? Hamilton made at least as many mistakes as Vettel did in those years, and Vettel was just as dominant over his teammates speedwise.


I'm going to leave discussion of 2008, 2009 for another time. As for the rest...

You made a good claim for the two years 2011 & 2013, and I don’t dispute anything said in your opening paragraph (Vettel did steal a good number of poles from the McLarens that year and it was one of the best years anyone did in qualifying in the sport’s history; in an interesting contrast, I felt Vettel had several poles stolen from him in 2013 by the Mercedes), but it hardly answers the essential thrust of my earlier post. When two campaigns are similarly impeccable or close, the main deciding point becomes the relative handicappedness of one’s the opponent (s). 2011/2013 and 2018 may be similarly clean and perfect seasons but they weren’t conducted against opponents in similarly formidable equipment—the gulf in this respect is sizeable. And in addition (and not to be petty), 2013 wasn’t a perfect season (even though it was very close). Vettel probably should have won or come second in Hungary.

The RB-9 wasn't dominant before the summer break but it was the best car by some ways. The Mercedes couldn't hang with either the Red Bull, the Lotus, or the Ferrari outside of Monaco, Silverstone, and Hungary. The Lotus and the Ferrari both were left gasping in Monaco. The Lotus was behind in Malaysia, Canada, Great Britain. The Ferrari was horrible in Bahrain and only ok in Germany and Great Britain. Meanwhile, the Red Bull could basically podium at every race. The way every other car's performance would fluctuate while the Red Bull remained highly competitive were perfect conditions for Vettel growing such a huge lead.

Is it any coincidence that in most of the racier grand prix of those years (China, Canada, Hungary, and Germany in 2011; Hungary in 2013), and in a trend that preceded and succeeded that period, Vettel almost never came off the winner? Given the right ingredients in a season (many and most of which were present in 2011 and 2013), I don’t think Vettel would perform any worse and possibly better than any driver in F1 history. I also think he could never win a season like Alonso’s 2006 for instance. And that the Hamilton of 2018 can.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:20 pm 
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This arguments are shifting in the wrong direction comparing Hamilton's 2018 with Vettel in 2011 or 2013 is pure nonsense.

In both of those years no one looked anywhere near Vettel or was the title ever in doubt of being won by Vettel, the relentless consistency in '11 and '13 was something last seen with MSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:59 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel was absolutely relentless in 2011. He took pole position on at least three occasions when McLaren looked favourites in Q3 (Hungary, Japan, Abu Dhabi). He broke the all time pole record in a car that was nowhere near the most dominant of all time. His qualifying gaps over Webber that season were also absurd. In 2013, Vettel made zero mistakes and had zero off-weekends. He was leading the championship by 40 points going into the summer break, and that was before Red Bull was even dominant.

Vettels 2011 and 2013 are at least as good as Hamilton’s 2018.

breathemyexhaust wrote:
If we look at all their years together, Hamilton drove better in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 and at best 2015 is probably a draw. Now some of you are saying that two years of being outperformed in eleven is a large enough period as to put Hamilton's superiority into doubt? If you wanted to say this at the end of 2013 when they had only completed 6 years of grand prix racing, that might have been fine, but not now.

2007 is not even a remotely fair comparison. Vettel participated in less than half of the total races and drove a backmarker car.

I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that Hamilton was better in 2008 or 2009? Hamilton made at least as many mistakes as Vettel did in those years, and Vettel was just as dominant over his teammates speedwise.

Unlike Hamilton, Vettel had the car to win the title in 2009 but came up short, once Hamilton had a good car in the second half of the season he outscored everyone.

Given that Vettel was not ready to win the title in 2009, unlike Hamilton he was hardly going to be any better equipped to win the title in 2008.

2011 and 2013 would be viewed as Vettel having a superior car unlike Hamilton in 2018.

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