planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:01 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 19%  19%  [ 18 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 45 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 30%  30%  [ 28 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 94
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 1320
Location: Kansas
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.


Could be true for all we know but it does seem ludicrous on the face of it. :lol:

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 1320
Location: Kansas
Lewis says, "I’m always just looking to improve and I really love being in this sport.” Peter Windsor agrees with him. He says he continually sees Lewis trying new things and finding new ways to be fast. Windsor it's a host of very small elements to Lewis driving that make the difference between Lewis and drivers like Valtteri. Things like moving your line through a turn by an inch or two each lap as your fuel load gets lighter.

I suspect that we will continue to see Lewis elevate his race craft for quite a while yet. I also have no doubt that he will occasionally put on qualifying performances that absolutely stagger everyone.

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:11 am
Posts: 223
I guess there just wasn't enough Lewis Hamilton in the Vettel vs Leclerc thread.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:23 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.

I could have used more examples of Kimi not being a top class qualifier.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:36 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I think it's entirely possible that Hamilton has finally reached the stage in his career where his outright single lap pace is just beginning to diminish. That might be a premature statement and it might just be that this was a slightly down year for him in qualifying but Valteri was generally more competitive on Saturdays this year than he has been in the past and, if I recall correctly, 2003 was about the time I first started to feel like Michael might be on the down-swing too (he was also 34 that year). I'd say 2018 was Hamilton at the peak of his powers and, IMO, he hasn't quite matched that level overall this year.

Oddly, somehow 33 seems to be the age that a lot of the legendary drivers reached their absolute peak. Was Michael ever better than 2002? Was Senna ever better than 1993?

Senna poled every race he took part in the following season in a slower car than what Schumacher had, qualifying is not lineal, there can be ebbs and flows, I think it's just not been a strong year for Hamilton and we're merely talking about him being down about 0.04s, that's how finite it can be and the kind of difference it can make.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:37 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.


They were not his fault though. Without team orders, vettel lost a win with a DNF in Russia and a likely 5th place at the last race with a DNF. Leclerc has had 2 DNFs with himself totally to blame.

Vettel was behind Leclerc in Russia.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:40 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:41 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Liket wrote:
I guess there just wasn't enough Lewis Hamilton in the Vettel vs Leclerc thread.

Good point.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 2251
Location: Miami, Florida
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9950
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:12 am 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

From the horses mouth so to speak, it's actually the engine braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwyFgTNarc

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9950
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

From the horses mouth so to speak, it's actually the engine braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwyFgTNarc

Ok thanks, so it seems it was costing time towards the end of the lap. Combined with his poor corner exits it would probably explain the deficit.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1993
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.


No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1549
Location: UK
Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6977
Rockie wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.


No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.

I'm not sure why my post is quoted here. I didn't actually say anything about Vettel or his suspension failure or qualifying performance.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:00 am
Posts: 628
Location: Running wide at Bergwerk
Option or Prime wrote:
Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!

The image I saw on the broadcast looked like the lower wishbone arm failed - as in the arm itself, not where it joins to the car. I'm no expert but it may be possible the carbon weave can weaken over time before the catastrophic failure?

_________________
"Guys I'm coming in, I'm having too much grip"
- Chanoch Nissany


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1549
Location: UK
jono794 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!

The image I saw on the broadcast looked like the lower wishbone arm failed - as in the arm itself, not where it joins to the car. I'm no expert but it may be possible the carbon weave can weaken over time before the catastrophic failure?


I appreciate that, its just that its still working even if weakened isn't it, if it is intact then the distances are the same so the geometry of the suspension still works. I'd have though Vettel's poor start was more down to not working than suspension issues.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:25 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Rockie wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.


No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.

In regards to qualifying he out qualified his teammate so why would anyone look to criticise his qualifying plus I don't believe anyone actually did anyway?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:08 pm
Posts: 13
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2551
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.



Come again? 8O


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2303
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:59 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?

I think there's more to explain than that like Alonso and Button being past their primes when teamed against Hamilton, Alonso in particular was the reigning double world champion and aged just 26, whilst Button was not as fast as Hamilton anyway.

In respect to Ricciardo and Vettel it sounds like some kind of alternate universe were in 2014 we had a different outcome.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Michigan, USA
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

As a fan of both Button and Alonso, that's simply not true. Lewis partnered with both of them while they were reigning World Champions. Neither was out of their prime, and Button was never equal to Lewis in speed.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2303
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?

I think there's more to explain than that like Alonso and Button being past their primes when teamed against Hamilton, Alonso in particular was the reigning double world champion and aged just 26, whilst Button was not as fast as Hamilton anyway.

In respect to Ricciardo and Vettel it sounds like some kind of alternate universe were in 2014 we had a different outcome.


I fully agree with you. Just thought I statt with the first one. No answer just supports my impression: just a troll.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6977
This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Michigan, USA
sandman1347 wrote:
This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.

I don't know, I can think of some competition... 8)

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am
Posts: 1353
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.

I don't know, I can think of some competition... 8)


It hasn’t been long since Hamilton’s broken floor gave him an advantage because of the weight reduction :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 1031
Location: India
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ? So he would beat Hamilton as well if he was against him where as Bottas is not among the best 4 drivers. Same with Nico, who was able to compete against Hamilton and beat him as well. But he is not regarded as one of the best. TBH Hamilton has no pressure once Rosberg retired and driving the best car obviously helps. Vettel said in one of the interview that he would give himself 5 out of 10 and Charles has definitely exceeded expectation. Next year will be interesting as Vettel does not have a contract so far after 2020. He will have to beat Charles. I can't see Hamilton joining Ferrari against Charles for 2021.

_________________
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16309
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ? So he would beat Hamilton as well if he was against him where as Bottas is not among the best 4 drivers. Same with Nico, who was able to compete against Hamilton and beat him as well. But he is not regarded as one of the best. TBH Hamilton has no pressure once Rosberg retired and driving the best car obviously helps. Vettel said in one of the interview that he would give himself 5 out of 10 and Charles has definitely exceeded expectation. Next year will be interesting as Vettel does not have a contract so far after 2020. He will have to beat Charles. I can't see Hamilton joining Ferrari against Charles for 2021.


I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7449
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:38 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ? So he would beat Hamilton as well if he was against him where as Bottas is not among the best 4 drivers. Same with Nico, who was able to compete against Hamilton and beat him as well. But he is not regarded as one of the best. TBH Hamilton has no pressure once Rosberg retired and driving the best car obviously helps. Vettel said in one of the interview that he would give himself 5 out of 10 and Charles has definitely exceeded expectation. Next year will be interesting as Vettel does not have a contract so far after 2020. He will have to beat Charles. I can't see Hamilton joining Ferrari against Charles for 2021.

I think the fact that presently Leclerc is on a similar level against Vettel precludes him from being considered the best driver in F1 because Vettel certainly isn't, Vettel himself might struggle to be considered a top 4 driver?

As a comparison Hamilton was a fair bit better than Vettel in 2017 and 2018, the same can't be said of Leclerc this season.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:42 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

If only you actually measured things in patches, I don't see Leclerc presently being as quick as Verstappen, a driver that doesn't appear to perform in patches.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2551
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

If only you actually measured things in patches, I don't see Leclerc presently being as quick as Verstappen, a driver that doesn't appear to perform in patches.



... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:52 pm 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I do not think that is the proper way to compare. Probably Charles is the best driver in F1 already ?

I don't think anyone has suggested Leclerc is already the best driver in F1. Certainly nothing we have seen this season would indicate that.

I think there's an outside possibility that Leclerc is the quickest driver in F1 already, but certainly not best. During his purple patch against Vettel he was out-qualifying him by margins that suggest he's at least equivalent to Verstappen. He seems to have dropped off a bit since then, however, so that muddies the picture.

As a total package though, definitely not the best yet.

If only you actually measured things in patches, I don't see Leclerc presently being as quick as Verstappen, a driver that doesn't appear to perform in patches.



... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1549
Location: UK
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.


Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6977
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.


Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.

Red Bull's glory days are not as far in the past as Ferrari's. They have their works team status back now and I wouldn't be so quick to jump to that assumption.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:47 am 
Online

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33203
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.


Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.

Well he has plenty of years left to make the right choices.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16309
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.


Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.


And back in 2008 we would all have thought Vettel would need to be in a Mclaren or Ferrari to win multiple championships. They haven't won a championship since between them.

Admittedly we are now stuck in a period of unprecedented predictability and stability but things can and do change. Verstappen has time on his side. He's still younger than Hamilton was when he made his debut.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1549
Location: UK
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.


Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.


And back in 2008 we would all have thought Vettel would need to be in a Mclaren or Ferrari to win multiple championships. They haven't won a championship since between them.

Admittedly we are now stuck in a period of unprecedented predictability and stability but things can and do change. Verstappen has time on his side. He's still younger than Hamilton was when he made his debut.


If all GP's are at altitude then Max and Red Bull will win for sure.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6977
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: pokerman and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group