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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 22%  22%  [ 14 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 43%  43%  [ 28 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 31%  31%  [ 20 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 65
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
This arguments are shifting in the wrong direction comparing Hamilton's 2018 with Vettel in 2011 or 2013 is pure nonsense.

In both of those years no one looked anywhere near Vettel or was the title ever in doubt of being won by Vettel, the relentless consistency in '11 and '13 was something last seen with MSC.


He wasn't put under any pressure really in either of those years. In Canada 2011 when he was actually put under some he buckled.

The consistency was impressive but by 2013 Webber was a busted flush. The tyre change allowed Red Bull to denonstrate their full performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.


It's quite a big period of time for one driver to out perform another over and still not be considered better. That was almost half their careers at that point.

The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:20 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel wasn’t merely better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013, he was better by a huge margin. In 2011 and 2013, Vettel was driving on the same level as Hamilton in 2018. Meanwhile Hamilton had many accidents in 2011 and many off-races in 2013.

There is no comparison between Vettel in 2011 and 2013 and Hamilton in 2018. Vettel had dominant cars in those years while Hamilton had the same kind of season statistically while driving the second best car.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel > Hamilton was actually a wildely held view in 2013, at the time it was hard to find someone who thought the opposite. 2014 changed everything.

Not true in the slightest. Many people in and around F1 have always rated Hamilton above Vettel.


I think almost everyone things Vettel was better 2011-2013 as a whole.

Most would say Vettel performed better in the championship during that window but that's different from actually being a better driver. I never rated Vettel as a better driver than Hamilton and neither did many others.

Would I be correct in assuming that you were a Hamilton fan in 2011-2013? I think 'most people' has to exclude the fans of the drivers involved. Those people are unlikely to be objective in their analysis.

Speaking for myself, I thought Hamilton and Vettel were both overrated in that era. 8)

No it really has to do with what you actually think about when someone asks you to assess drivers. I look at their actual driving. Some others might look at stats first. Others still might have another way of assessing things. In terms of the talent that was apparent when you watched them behind the wheel; for me, Hamilton has always clearly been better. Others may have had differing opinions at different points in time.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
This arguments are shifting in the wrong direction comparing Hamilton's 2018 with Vettel in 2011 or 2013 is pure nonsense.

In both of those years no one looked anywhere near Vettel or was the title ever in doubt of being won by Vettel, the relentless consistency in '11 and '13 was something last seen with MSC.

It's important to note that Vettel had the dominant car in both of those seasons wheres Hamilton has been in the second best car in 2018. The season Lewis had that's similar to Vettel's 2011 and 2013 is 2015; where he just dominated from the start of the year until the time he wrapped up the title with three races to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:30 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:

It's quite a big period of time for one driver to out perform another over and still not be considered better. That was almost half their careers at that point.

The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.[/quote]

Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:34 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This arguments are shifting in the wrong direction comparing Hamilton's 2018 with Vettel in 2011 or 2013 is pure nonsense.

In both of those years no one looked anywhere near Vettel or was the title ever in doubt of being won by Vettel, the relentless consistency in '11 and '13 was something last seen with MSC.


He wasn't put under any pressure really in either of those years. In Canada 2011 when he was actually put under some he buckled.

The consistency was impressive but by 2013 Webber was a busted flush. The tyre change allowed Red Bull to denonstrate their full performance.


He was under the pressure he set himself, also Canada '11 was just catching a damp patch I suspect in Korea you taught Hamilton buckled under pressure after he was calling for the safety car to go in and messed up on the restart in the wet.

I have no business with Webber, just like I won't bother with Bottas in assessing Hamilton's performance this year as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:37 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
This arguments are shifting in the wrong direction comparing Hamilton's 2018 with Vettel in 2011 or 2013 is pure nonsense.

In both of those years no one looked anywhere near Vettel or was the title ever in doubt of being won by Vettel, the relentless consistency in '11 and '13 was something last seen with MSC.

It's important to note that Vettel had the dominant car in both of those seasons wheres Hamilton has been in the second best car in 2018. The season Lewis had that's similar to Vettel's 2011 and 2013 is 2015; where he just dominated from the start of the year until the time he wrapped up the title with three races to go.


Dominant is relative, but the performance Vettel had between '10-'13, if he had the Mercedes folks would have switched off watching F1 that is where Vettel is different.

It's as if the first half of this year didn't happen at a point Hamilton was saying he might not win the title if things continue this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.


He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving, and also got in to two unforced accidents.

Backing him had nothing to do with '12 he had reliability problems like everybody so i don't get the excuse. What of Vettel and his alternator problems through '12 or that don't count?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.


He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving, and also got in to two unforced accidents.

Backing him had nothing to do with '12 he had reliability problems like everybody so i don't get the excuse. What of Vettel and his alternator problems through '12 or that don't count?

Vettel's mistakes AND Red Bull's reliability cost Vettel in 2010. He did well to salvage it at the end of the year but he made a mess of a totally dominant machine that year. That was the sloppiest of the 4 titles he won.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.


He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving, and also got in to two unforced accidents.

Backing him had nothing to do with '12 he had reliability problems like everybody so i don't get the excuse. What of Vettel and his alternator problems through '12 or that don't count?

Vettel's mistakes AND Red Bull's reliability cost Vettel in 2010. He did well to salvage it at the end of the year but he made a mess of a totally dominant machine that year. That was the sloppiest of the 4 titles he won.


In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.


He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving, and also got in to two unforced accidents.

Backing him had nothing to do with '12 he had reliability problems like everybody so i don't get the excuse. What of Vettel and his alternator problems through '12 or that don't count?

Vettel's mistakes AND Red Bull's reliability cost Vettel in 2010. He did well to salvage it at the end of the year but he made a mess of a totally dominant machine that year. That was the sloppiest of the 4 titles he won.


Asides Turkey and Spa which other mistakes if I may ask?

Reliability did more for Vettel just like in '09 where during qualifying he could only do one lap in each session.

All other drivers who were more experienced made more mistakes than Vettel, asides from Webber everyone else he was competing against was a World Champion, its either you dont rate them for feeling that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The fact is that Vettel had the better car and team during that window of time and Hamilton performed better than him in 2012. If we look at the entire 12 seasons that they have been in F1 together, I'd say 2011 and 2013 are the only two years where Vettel performed better than Hamilton as a driver. One was the worst year of Hamilton's career and the other was Lewis's first season with a new team (a team that was completely focused on the next season).

I'm sure there were people who put Vettel above Hamilton during the window you're talking about but I was never one of them and neither were many others (including Alonso). As impressive as 2011 and 2013 were, they were both years where Vettel had the dominant car and where his teammate wasn't competitive. I certainly think Vettel proved himself in that scenario but that doesn't tell you much about how he compares to the other guys.


Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.


He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving, and also got in to two unforced accidents.

Backing him had nothing to do with '12 he had reliability problems like everybody so i don't get the excuse. What of Vettel and his alternator problems through '12 or that don't count?

In 2010 Hamilton still made less mistakes than either Vettel and Alonso and was considered to have had the better season, the fact he was leading the WDC quite late in the season despite having an inferior car refutes what you said about him being no challenge to Vettel.

In 2012 about 50% of Hamilton's races were affected by either reliability issues, McLaren's mistakes or driver's crashing into him of which three of them received penalties, a far cry from any problems Vettel may have had.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Yet Hamilton has only finished ahead of Vettel since '14.

At no time in the Vettel era was Hamilton his main challenger through '10-'13.

Hamilton wasn't better than him in '12, Redbull having to redesign the back of the car and Vettel having to adjust to the loss of the blown diffuser and suffering a lot of Reliability problems and Renault alternator.

Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car, he also was leading in 2012 before McLaren started to implode were they basically decided not to fully back him, the operational weakness of the team is still seen to this day and something Hamilton recognised when he decided to quit the team.


He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving, and also got in to two unforced accidents.

Backing him had nothing to do with '12 he had reliability problems like everybody so i don't get the excuse. What of Vettel and his alternator problems through '12 or that don't count?

Vettel's mistakes AND Red Bull's reliability cost Vettel in 2010. He did well to salvage it at the end of the year but he made a mess of a totally dominant machine that year. That was the sloppiest of the 4 titles he won.


Asides Turkey and Spa which other mistakes if I may ask?

Reliability did more for Vettel just like in '09 where during qualifying he could only do one lap in each session.

All other drivers who were more experienced made more mistakes than Vettel, asides from Webber everyone else he was competing against was a World Champion, its either you dont rate them for feeling that way.

He got penalised for leaving too large a gap behind a safety car.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.

Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car
Rockie wrote:
He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving

This is actually completely true. The pure pace of the Red Bull was such that there should have been no 2010 title fight if it had been reliable.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.


Vettel wasn't one of the three best performing drivers of 2010. He was much better in 2011.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:10 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car
Rockie wrote:
He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving

This is actually completely true. The pure pace of the Red Bull was such that there should have been no 2010 title fight if it had been reliable.

No it's not completely true because it overlooks Vettel's mistakes, Alonso seems to get full credit for his 2010 and 2012 seasons built on the back of a reliable car so why not Hamilton in 2010?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car
Rockie wrote:
He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving

This is actually completely true. The pure pace of the Red Bull was such that there should have been no 2010 title fight if it had been reliable.

No it's not completely true because it overlooks Vettel's mistakes, Alonso seems to get full credit for his 2010 and 2012 seasons built on the back of a reliable car so why not Hamilton in 2010?


Hamilton crashed back to back Monza and Singapore which took him out of the title fight Vettel retiring from the lead at South Korea brought Alonso back into the fight.

So this third car nonsense comes from you.

Also Vettel went into the title showdown with the least chance and came out on top.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top 3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.

Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica?


They weren't even close.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Asides Turkey and Spa which other mistakes if I may ask?

Reliability did more for Vettel just like in '09 where during qualifying he could only do one lap in each session.

All other drivers who were more experienced made more mistakes than Vettel, asides from Webber everyone else he was competing against was a World Champion, its either you dont rate them for feeling that way.

He got penalised for leaving too large a gap behind a safety car.


Well he was trying to help Webber which in hindsight he should not have done, and also Redbull failed to warn him.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top 3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.

Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica?


They weren't even close.


Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car
Rockie wrote:
He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving

This is actually completely true. The pure pace of the Red Bull was such that there should have been no 2010 title fight if it had been reliable.

No it's not completely true because it overlooks Vettel's mistakes, Alonso seems to get full credit for his 2010 and 2012 seasons built on the back of a reliable car so why not Hamilton in 2010?


Hamilton crashed back to back Monza and Singapore which took him out of the title fight Vettel retiring from the lead at South Korea brought Alonso back into the fight.

So this third car nonsense comes from you.

Also Vettel went into the title showdown with the least chance and came out on top.

Well I would say Singapore was debatable to give Hamilton blame, you don't think the McLaren was the third fastest car whilst the Red Bull wasn't the fastest car?

Vettel's recovery from reliability issues and his own mistakes were very much helped by him having the fastest car, even though Alonso was the favourite going into the last race, Vettel was very much the favourite to actually win the race.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top 3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.

Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica?


They weren't even close.

None of them, seriously?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Asides Turkey and Spa which other mistakes if I may ask?

Reliability did more for Vettel just like in '09 where during qualifying he could only do one lap in each session.

All other drivers who were more experienced made more mistakes than Vettel, asides from Webber everyone else he was competing against was a World Champion, its either you dont rate them for feeling that way.

He got penalised for leaving too large a gap behind a safety car.


Well he was trying to help Webber which in hindsight he should not have done, and also Redbull failed to warn him.

It was still a failure by him to know the prevalent rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:

In 2010 Vettel wasn't even in top 3 best drivers. Still won WDC, only in F1... ;)


It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.

Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica?


They weren't even close.


Why?


Because non of them put up a notable performance against him, and he was the only one who actually had a team mate who put up a proper fight against him for the WDC.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton was leading the 2010 WDC quite late in the season in what turned out to be the third best car
Rockie wrote:
He was leading due to Redbulls reliability and nothing else, it was not based on actual driving

This is actually completely true. The pure pace of the Red Bull was such that there should have been no 2010 title fight if it had been reliable.

No it's not completely true because it overlooks Vettel's mistakes, Alonso seems to get full credit for his 2010 and 2012 seasons built on the back of a reliable car so why not Hamilton in 2010?


Hamilton crashed back to back Monza and Singapore which took him out of the title fight Vettel retiring from the lead at South Korea brought Alonso back into the fight.

So this third car nonsense comes from you.

Also Vettel went into the title showdown with the least chance and came out on top.

Well I would say Singapore was debatable to give Hamilton blame, you don't think the McLaren was the third fastest car whilst the Red Bull wasn't the fastest car?

Vettel's recovery from reliability issues and his own mistakes were very much helped by him having the fastest car, even though Alonso was the favourite going into the last race, Vettel was very much the favourite to actually win the race.


Haha so for Hamilton there is an excuse for his coming together but for Vettel there is none I get you.

Vettel suffered from reliability that didnt end his race case in point Bahrain spark plug failure from 1st to 4th.

A driver had consecutive crashes that led to DNFs and you are here arguing he drove better than Vettel lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Asides Turkey and Spa which other mistakes if I may ask?

Reliability did more for Vettel just like in '09 where during qualifying he could only do one lap in each session.

All other drivers who were more experienced made more mistakes than Vettel, asides from Webber everyone else he was competing against was a World Champion, its either you dont rate them for feeling that way.

He got penalised for leaving too large a gap behind a safety car.


Well he was trying to help Webber which in hindsight he should not have done, and also Redbull failed to warn him.

It was still a failure by him to know the prevalent rules.


So we make it three mistakes which is still less than all the other contenders, but somehow they were better than him.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
It is more of an indictment on the others not Vettel.

Also in what world was he not one of the top 3 drivers of 2010, considering he was runner up in '09.

Hamilton, Alonso and Kubica?


They weren't even close.


Why?


Because non of them put up a notable performance against him, and he was the only one who actually had a team mate who put up a proper fight against him for the WDC.

Alonso was leading in an inferior car going into the final race and you consider that not to be a notable performance?

I believe Hamilton was in mathematical contention going into the last race whilst Button was in mathematical contention going into the last 2 races, these being teammates and also in inferior cars.

Including Webber you could list that as 4 drivers that put in far more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2018, and 3 that put in more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2017.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
This is actually completely true. The pure pace of the Red Bull was such that there should have been no 2010 title fight if it had been reliable.

No it's not completely true because it overlooks Vettel's mistakes, Alonso seems to get full credit for his 2010 and 2012 seasons built on the back of a reliable car so why not Hamilton in 2010?


Hamilton crashed back to back Monza and Singapore which took him out of the title fight Vettel retiring from the lead at South Korea brought Alonso back into the fight.

So this third car nonsense comes from you.

Also Vettel went into the title showdown with the least chance and came out on top.

Well I would say Singapore was debatable to give Hamilton blame, you don't think the McLaren was the third fastest car whilst the Red Bull wasn't the fastest car?

Vettel's recovery from reliability issues and his own mistakes were very much helped by him having the fastest car, even though Alonso was the favourite going into the last race, Vettel was very much the favourite to actually win the race.


Haha so for Hamilton there is an excuse for his coming together but for Vettel there is none I get you.

Vettel suffered from reliability that didnt end his race case in point Bahrain spark plug failure from 1st to 4th.

A driver had consecutive crashes that led to DNFs and you are here arguing he drove better than Vettel lol.

I think you lose sight of the fact that Vettel had a much superior car, do you think that Vettel's collisions with both Button and Webber are debatable?

Three mistakes by Vettel, two from Hamilton unless you can come up with something else?

I can't think of anyone apart from his ardent supporters thought that winning the title in 2010 in easily the best car cemented Vettel as being the best driver in F1, the main talk was of the gallant effort that Alonso put up to take the title down to the wire.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:10 pm 
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It's very strange thinking, this way I can say that Rubens Barichello is a better driver than Hamilton because the only time he had a winning car and was on equal treatment he beat Lewis in 2009 :D

Alonso and Hamilton is not even debatable for me, only Vettel fanboys can disagree they were better in 2010. If you look at pure driver performance and forget the car? Kubica was a driver who I think didn't make a single mistake this year, he was a driver who was outperforming his car on the most regular basis and by biggest margin on the entire grid probably. When second Renault car started from 17th place, Kubica was always somewhere between Ferrari and McLaren cars on the grid (Ok it was Petrov in second car, but according to Russian journalists Petrov was bigger talent and faster driver than Sirotkin is). He was beating fair and square on track some of Ferrari/McLaren/Mercedes drivers almost every race, from time to time providing miracle performances like Monaco.
So for me Vettel under performed a bit in his car in 2010, Kubica outperformed his car like crazy - so if Vettel was better driver in 2010 then Rubens was better than Hamilton in 2009 as well xD


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Alonso was leading in an inferior car going into the final race and you consider that not to be a notable performance?

I believe Hamilton was in mathematical contention going into the last race whilst Button was in mathematical contention going into the last 2 races, these being teammates and also in inferior cars.

Including Webber you could list that as 4 drivers that put in far more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2018, and 3 that put in more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2017.


We are talking about 2010 how do you factor in '17 and '18?

The Alonso leading was due to reliability and nothing else why you keep ignoring that baffles me, why didn't he lead in 2011 when Vettel had no reliability issues?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Haha so for Hamilton there is an excuse for his coming together but for Vettel there is none I get you.

Vettel suffered from reliability that didnt end his race case in point Bahrain spark plug failure from 1st to 4th.

A driver had consecutive crashes that led to DNFs and you are here arguing he drove better than Vettel lol.

I think you lose sight of the fact that Vettel had a much superior car, do you think that Vettel's collisions with both Button and Webber are debatable?

Three mistakes by Vettel, two from Hamilton unless you can come up with something else?

I can't think of anyone apart from his ardent supporters thought that winning the title in 2010 in easily the best car cemented Vettel as being the best driver in F1, the main talk was of the gallant effort that Alonso put up to take the title down to the wire.


What gallant effort every time Vettel retired from the lead Alonso benefited you want to rewrite history thats what you are doing right now.

Those were not his only mistakes he ran wide at South Korea in the wet on the restart after a safety car period. Alonso was behind him in that race and benefited when Vettel retired.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alonso was leading in an inferior car going into the final race and you consider that not to be a notable performance?

I believe Hamilton was in mathematical contention going into the last race whilst Button was in mathematical contention going into the last 2 races, these being teammates and also in inferior cars.

Including Webber you could list that as 4 drivers that put in far more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2018, and 3 that put in more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2017.


We are talking about 2010 how do you factor in '17 and '18?

The Alonso leading was due to reliability and nothing else why you keep ignoring that baffles me, why didn't he lead in 2011 when Vettel had no reliability issues?


It's not only reliability issues, it's also mistakes, even very serious embarrassing mistakes like Belgium.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Mayox wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alonso was leading in an inferior car going into the final race and you consider that not to be a notable performance?

I believe Hamilton was in mathematical contention going into the last race whilst Button was in mathematical contention going into the last 2 races, these being teammates and also in inferior cars.

Including Webber you could list that as 4 drivers that put in far more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2018, and 3 that put in more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2017.


We are talking about 2010 how do you factor in '17 and '18?

The Alonso leading was due to reliability and nothing else why you keep ignoring that baffles me, why didn't he lead in 2011 when Vettel had no reliability issues?




It's not only reliability issues, it's also mistakes, even very serious embarrassing mistakes like Belgium.


I guess that can be cancelled out with Alonso making a rookie mistake by crashing out on his own at Spa as well, so that's one of your silly reasons debunked, Next..........

If you are going to opine on stuff atleast know what you talking about!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alonso was leading in an inferior car going into the final race and you consider that not to be a notable performance?

I believe Hamilton was in mathematical contention going into the last race whilst Button was in mathematical contention going into the last 2 races, these being teammates and also in inferior cars.

Including Webber you could list that as 4 drivers that put in far more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2018, and 3 that put in more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2017.


We are talking about 2010 how do you factor in '17 and '18?

The Alonso leading was due to reliability and nothing else why you keep ignoring that baffles me, why didn't he lead in 2011 when Vettel had no reliability issues?




It's not only reliability issues, it's also mistakes, even very serious embarrassing mistakes like Belgium.


I guess that can be cancelled out with Alonso making a rookie mistake by crashing out on his own at Spa as well, so that's one of your silly reasons debunked, Next..........

If you are going to opine on stuff atleast know what you talking about!


And crashing into his team mate in Turkey.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mayox wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alonso was leading in an inferior car going into the final race and you consider that not to be a notable performance?

I believe Hamilton was in mathematical contention going into the last race whilst Button was in mathematical contention going into the last 2 races, these being teammates and also in inferior cars.

Including Webber you could list that as 4 drivers that put in far more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2018, and 3 that put in more convincing performances than what Vettel did in 2017.


We are talking about 2010 how do you factor in '17 and '18?

The Alonso leading was due to reliability and nothing else why you keep ignoring that baffles me, why didn't he lead in 2011 when Vettel had no reliability issues?




It's not only reliability issues, it's also mistakes, even very serious embarrassing mistakes like Belgium.


I guess that can be cancelled out with Alonso making a rookie mistake by crashing out on his own at Spa as well, so that's one of your silly reasons debunked, Next..........

If you are going to opine on stuff atleast know what you talking about!


The most important thing anyway is the fact that Alonso beat Vettel too many times on track in inferior car when they both had error free weekends. Qualifying was also not impressive, hell with Alonso and Hamilton... in Belgium as well as in Monaco Vettel lost in quali to Kubica's Renault... and it's not like Red Bull wasn't fast as Webber was on pole both times - what kind of bad performance it is?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Didn't Vettel also lost places (notably also to Alonso) and a shot at the podium in a late-in-the-race restart in China '10?
Then the Silverstone first lap incident.

Of course Turkey, Hungary and Belgium.

Vettel's 2010 was not too dissimilar from his 2017 or 2018 - very good performances mixed with many mistakes (also smaller ones in addition to the bigger ones) and varying speed. However, the speed advantage of the 2010 RB was big enough to compensate the sum of Vettel's mistakes and the reliability issues. Without either his many mistakes or the reliability issues, he would have taken a dominant wdc.

All in all far away from his best year.

But then again, he was much younger and less experienced back then what makes his many 2018 mistakes counting much more against him, IMO.


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