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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:16 pm 
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I don't agree with Vettel's hastiness at all in that moment. He has to go big or go home to turn the Championship around so it was understandable in one way but a pragmatic approach could have seen him follow Max closely, nail the chicane and nail him down the starting straight. Vettel says "it's a long race." He should follow his own advice, perhaps.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'm no Max fan, but I'd put this one almost entirely onto Vettel. He came from so far behind and committed to a dive bomb on a driver who was never going to just back out and avoid him. Max left enough space for Vettel to get back out of the move, but not enough for him to overtake.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I don't agree with Vettel's hastiness at all in that moment. He has to go big or go home to turn the Championship around so it was understandable in one way but a pragmatic approach could have seen him follow Max closely, nail the chicane and nail him down the starting straight. Vettel says "it's a long race." He should follow his own advice, perhaps.


Very much THIS!!!!

Being able to pick and choose your battles for maximum advantage, is an important part of being a champion. It is also something that Vettel has not consistently shown in recent times.

Vettel has given away this year's title and arguably last year's title by just this kind of short sighted approach.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:

.

What a joke - typical of ALL his excuses when he hits cars by "lunging".

He was NEVER "side-by-side" with Max, he was always behind and not on the racing line. He was just expecting to intimidate by being overspeed and a known hothead in corners - but Max just relied on the rules, but of course, Vettel doesn't think that they apply to him.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:08 pm 
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The main issue is that the move showed extremely poor judgement. If he had the speed to pass Max, why try it at spoon? Wait until you get to the chicane or just use the DRS zone on the straight. Choosing a high-speed corner that is not a common overtaking spot was foolish.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out
Looking at second 24, the point of contact, Vettel's left front wheel is to the left of the white line, and therefore on the kerb. I don't understand what mikeyg means. :?[/quote]

This isn't what I was referring to but I've just remembered something. I wonder if you remember it as well. I remember what you said in regards to Verstappen's last lap Illegal overtake on Kimi in Austin 2017. You made the argument that all Kimi had to do was allow Verstappen to remain on track and as he would be defined as being on track if just part of the outside wheel stayed over the white line Kimi was entitled to push him that far over and only leave room for a tiny part of Verstappen's car.

I take it you have now changed your mind on this?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.

I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out


The more I look at it the more I agree. I called it as a racing incident at the time and I stick with that really. Vettel made a late and very risky lunge. Verstappen giving him so little room made contact much more likely.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out
Looking at second 24, the point of contact, Vettel's left front wheel is to the left of the white line, and therefore on the kerb. I don't understand what mikeyg means. :?


This isn't what I was referring to but I've just remembered something. I wonder if you remember it as well. I remember what you said in regards to Verstappen's last lap Illegal overtake on Kimi in Austin 2017. You made the argument that all Kimi had to do was allow Verstappen to remain on track and as he would be defined as being on track if just part of the outside wheel stayed over the white line Kimi was entitled to push him that far over and only leave room for a tiny part of Verstappen's car.

I take it you have now changed your mind on this?[/quote]

It's amazing how people's interpretation of the rules can change depending on whether or not a driver they like is involved.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Vettel has now went beyond the point where playing the percentage game matters. He had to get past there and pressure the Mercs.

Collision was Vettels fault but he was carrying a lot more speed and the door was wide open. However 4/5 times that pass doesn't work out.

I doubt Vettel would have tried that if he was still close in the championship, it seemed very much a last throw of dice.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:24 pm 
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Why did he need to do it there without DRS when he had done so well so soon with the majority of the race still in play ? The guy has just not learned since crashing into Webber and Button. Impulsive and impetuous still after all these years ! He has basically not made Hamilton work too hard for this and last year's WDC. Frankly Rosberg would be a stiffer test in that Ferrari or Mercedes than Vettel/Bottas.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out
Looking at second 24, the point of contact, Vettel's left front wheel is to the left of the white line, and therefore on the kerb. I don't understand what mikeyg means. :?


This isn't what I was referring to but I've just remembered something. I wonder if you remember it as well. I remember what you said in regards to Verstappen's last lap Illegal overtake on Kimi in Austin 2017. You made the argument that all Kimi had to do was allow Verstappen to remain on track and as he would be defined as being on track if just part of the outside wheel stayed over the white line Kimi was entitled to push him that far over and only leave room for a tiny part of Verstappen's car.

I take it you have now changed your mind on this?[/quote]

Could you help me by finding what I actually wrote at the time? From what I understand of your post above, there are two things to point out. The first is that the "overtake" as it happened, was illegal because it happened off-track. The second is that Mr Whiting "clarified" why Alonso was supposedly allowed to run somebody off the track coming out of the virage de Bruxelles (in 2016 I believe). That makes me think that what you are referring to above, is based on something Whiting said, but for which I have never found documentary evidence. Which means I didn't believe it would have been according the rules then, and which I still believe isn't according the rules now either. As far as I know, it is never allowed to run somebody off the track.

But if you could kindly help me find that thread back, I will gladly read it again, and comment.

Meanwhile, I would like to point out, again, that Vettel's wheel being up the kerb (when he was alongside Verstappen), means that Verstappen wasn't leaving (enough) room as he was claiming.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:59 pm 
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I've noticed a few comments on the lines of Vettel should have waited for another part of the track when overtaking would have been easier, and I'm wondering what makes people think that he could pick and choose like that, or even whether he would have any certainty that a better opportunity would come along. For all he knew he could have been stuck behind Max for a number of laps and the Mercs would have disappeared up the road. It was a risky move but he had to take any opportunity that presented itself


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out
Looking at second 24, the point of contact, Vettel's left front wheel is to the left of the white line, and therefore on the kerb. I don't understand what mikeyg means. :?


This isn't what I was referring to but I've just remembered something. I wonder if you remember it as well. I remember what you said in regards to Verstappen's last lap Illegal overtake on Kimi in Austin 2017. You made the argument that all Kimi had to do was allow Verstappen to remain on track and as he would be defined as being on track if just part of the outside wheel stayed over the white line Kimi was entitled to push him that far over and only leave room for a tiny part of Verstappen's car.

I take it you have now changed your mind on this?


Could you help me by finding what I actually wrote at the time? From what I understand of your post above, there are two things to point out. The first is that the "overtake" as it happened, was illegal because it happened off-track. The second is that Mr Whiting "clarified" why Alonso was supposedly allowed to run somebody off the track coming out of the virage de Bruxelles (in 2016 I believe). That makes me think that what you are referring to above, is based on something Whiting said, but for which I have never found documentary evidence. Which means I didn't believe it would have been according the rules then, and which I still believe isn't according the rules now either. As far as I know, it is never allowed to run somebody off the track.

But if you could kindly help me find that thread back, I will gladly read it again, and comment.

Meanwhile, I would like to point out, again, that Vettel's wheel being up the kerb (when he was alongside Verstappen), means that Verstappen wasn't leaving (enough) room as he was claiming.[/quote]

It would have been the US race thread. According to you as long as Vettel can remain on track as defined by the rules then Verstappen left enough room.

Edit - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14597&start=80.

I've found it. Check out your posts on page three. Fairly explicit.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.

I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out


The more I look at it the more I agree. I called it as a racing incident at the time and I stick with that really. Vettel made a late and very risky lunge. Verstappen giving him so little room made contact much more likely.


When I look at it, I wonder if Verstappen was still looking in his mirrors at that point. After the race he mentioned to Hamilton that "you can't overtake in that corner". I think he just took the corner as optimal as he saw possible, and hit a Ferrari in the process. Quite sloppy, but Verstappen tends to be sloppy at times.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
This isn't what I was referring to but I've just remembered something. I wonder if you remember it as well. I remember what you said in regards to Verstappen's last lap Illegal overtake on Kimi in Austin 2017. You made the argument that all Kimi had to do was allow Verstappen to remain on track and as he would be defined as being on track if just part of the outside wheel stayed over the white line Kimi was entitled to push him that far over and only leave room for a tiny part of Verstappen's car.

I take it you have now changed your mind on this?


mikeyg123 wrote:
It would have been the US race thread. According to you as long as Vettel can remain on track as defined by the rules then Verstappen left enough room.

Edit - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14597&start=80.

I've found it. Check out your posts on page three. Fairly explicit.

Is this the post you refer to? :
Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?
No, because there is no rule requiring Kimi to do so.
Appendix L wrote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
It is understandable that fans would think of this rule, but the "all angles" video shows that Kimi never left the racing line, and therefore, this rule doesn't apply.

Of course, there is the rule concerning crowding a competitor off the track. But even that one wasn't broken by Räikkönen.
Appendix L wrote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Why not?
Appendix L wrote:
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
And
Appendix L wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.


That having the narrowest amount of tyre on the white lines means you haven't left the track, means that there is nothing that can be laid at Kimi's door. Nothing whatsoever. Whether drivers should be allowed to force a competitor into having to make do with minimal track contact, is another discussion.


If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:02 am 
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For me, the move was not on simply because of the guy he was trying to overtake. You are a 4 time world champion and you know how Max drives. He is never going to leave you enough room, he is never going to give in. Unless Vettel decided that the championship battle is over and he just wanted to teach Max a lesson, I don't see how he goes for that move. If the championship was already decided and he goes for that move I wouldn't fault him, but yeah, it just wasn't the right time to do it. He seems to not get the big picture, which is odd because he is a very smart fellow.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:42 am 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13922 ... -for-clash

Vettel feels very strongly that the incident was Max's fault. I have decided to really take a second look at it and give him a chance. I'm going to say it's a racing incident and not Vettel's fault alone. Vettel's explanation rings true to me on some level. It's also just his general commentary about Max that I think I can relate to. I think Vettel (and others) is beginning to be a bit annoyed by Max's attitude out there. This is a snippet of what he had to say about the Dutchman:

"As soon as he realizes somebody is close or next to him, he tries to - in my opinion - push when you shouldn't push anymore.

"Look at [the incident with] Kimi, he's [Verstappen] off the track and comes back and if Kimi just drives on they'd collide.

"But it's not always right that the other guy has to move. We're all racing, the race is long."


I can see where he's coming from. Kimi Raikkonen also said the following:

"He ran wide and he went off the track and I just went on the outside at the next corner, leaving him space on the inside," Raikkonen said.

"He knew that I was there and he just drove into me and pushed me off the track."


Again, I agree. It's Max's responsibility to rejoin the track safely but he seems to think it's Kimi's responsibility to avoid the collision from him rejoining hastily. I like Max and I absolutely rate him and his talents but his attitude stinks out there and I'd like to see some evolution in that area.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:26 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/139224/vettel-verstappen-completely-to-blame-for-clash

Vettel feels very strongly that the incident was Max's fault. I have decided to really take a second look at it and give him a chance. I'm going to say it's a racing incident and not Vettel's fault alone. Vettel's explanation rings true to me on some level. It's also just his general commentary about Max that I think I can relate to. I think Vettel (and others) is beginning to be a bit annoyed by Max's attitude out there. This is a snippet of what he had to say about the Dutchman:

"As soon as he realizes somebody is close or next to him, he tries to - in my opinion - push when you shouldn't push anymore.

"Look at [the incident with] Kimi, he's [Verstappen] off the track and comes back and if Kimi just drives on they'd collide.

"But it's not always right that the other guy has to move. We're all racing, the race is long."


I can see where he's coming from. Kimi Raikkonen also said the following:

"He ran wide and he went off the track and I just went on the outside at the next corner, leaving him space on the inside," Raikkonen said.

"He knew that I was there and he just drove into me and pushed me off the track."


Again, I agree. It's Max's responsibility to rejoin the track safely but he seems to think it's Kimi's responsibility to avoid the collision from him rejoining hastily. I like Max and I absolutely rate him and his talents but his attitude stinks out there and I'd like to see some evolution in that area.


I agree with this. Max is special and he will likely be a champion one day...maybe a multi-champion. But his attitude does indeed stink. It is much more pleasurable watching the drivers actually go wheel to wheel without one spinning out because the other is playing by his own rules. Rules which in this case are so arbitrary, the only way to race securely against him is to not race against him. No F1 driver is going to concede that to another driver. All the top drivers and more have been Verstappened due to his philosophy of racing and it is not fun to watch when it happens...and not just when it happens to be your driver or team.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:42 am 
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Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:42 am 
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kleefton wrote:
For me, the move was not on simply because of the guy he was trying to overtake. You are a 4 time world champion and you know how Max drives. He is never going to leave you enough room, he is never going to give in. Unless Vettel decided that the championship battle is over and he just wanted to teach Max a lesson, I don't see how he goes for that move. If the championship was already decided and he goes for that move I wouldn't fault him, but yeah, it just wasn't the right time to do it. He seems to not get the big picture, which is odd because he is a very smart fellow.
BIB raises another can of worms for me. It's unacceptable that the rest of the F1 fraternity should have to treat Verstappen differently when attempting an overtake. You cannot have one reckless driver out there that everyone else is afraid of and the blame for this state of affairs lies wholly with the FIA for letting him get away with all manner of dangerous driving. At the speeds these guys are going, they should all be able to trust that the other guy is not going to do something stupid


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 am 
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StanB123 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.

I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out


The more I look at it the more I agree. I called it as a racing incident at the time and I stick with that really. Vettel made a late and very risky lunge. Verstappen giving him so little room made contact much more likely.


When I look at it, I wonder if Verstappen was still looking in his mirrors at that point. After the race he mentioned to Hamilton that "you can't overtake in that corner". I think he just took the corner as optimal as he saw possible, and hit a Ferrari in the process. Quite sloppy, but Verstappen tends to be sloppy at times.

There was always space on the inside of Verstappen. Not much, but there was a car's width (there was extra space out on the kerb too that was unused). Vettel refused to slow down and couldnt hold the line to keep it in the gap at that speed. Versatappen did nothing wrong. I suspect had Verstappen been the one who ended up in a spin and at the back of the field, Vettel would have had a penalty.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:13 am 
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Looked like an opportunistic dive bomb to me.
Looking at Max's on-board, he'd committed to his line through the corner well before Seb slung it up the inside.
Even if Max had taken a wider line, Seb's closing speed was such that he was very likely to make contact with Max.

If someone had done the same to Seb he'd have condemned the move in the same way Max has.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:28 am 
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I don't know what to say. Max's line through before the corner and through the corner was not the fastest one. So he was expecting Vettel to try something.

I can't say Seb was, or was not at fault. But he does have a point in saying Max does some weird things when defending.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:08 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
I don't know what to say. Max's line through before the corner and through the corner was not the fastest one. So he was expecting Vettel to try something.
I think you are right about Max's line. And since he didn't claim being unaware Vettel was there, I feel he bears more responsibility than Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/139224/vettel-verstappen-completely-to-blame-for-clash

Vettel feels very strongly that the incident was Max's fault. I have decided to really take a second look at it and give him a chance. I'm going to say it's a racing incident and not Vettel's fault alone. Vettel's explanation rings true to me on some level. It's also just his general commentary about Max that I think I can relate to. I think Vettel (and others) is beginning to be a bit annoyed by Max's attitude out there. This is a snippet of what he had to say about the Dutchman:

"As soon as he realizes somebody is close or next to him, he tries to - in my opinion - push when you shouldn't push anymore.

"Look at [the incident with] Kimi, he's [Verstappen] off the track and comes back and if Kimi just drives on they'd collide.

"But it's not always right that the other guy has to move. We're all racing, the race is long."


I can see where he's coming from. Kimi Raikkonen also said the following:

"He ran wide and he went off the track and I just went on the outside at the next corner, leaving him space on the inside," Raikkonen said.

"He knew that I was there and he just drove into me and pushed me off the track."


Again, I agree. It's Max's responsibility to rejoin the track safely but he seems to think it's Kimi's responsibility to avoid the collision from him rejoining hastily. I like Max and I absolutely rate him and his talents but his attitude stinks out there and I'd like to see some evolution in that area.


I completely agree. I can't blame a driver for going for an opportunistic overtake, it works most times for Max's team mate. But Vettel did this move, did not look like he lost the car as suggested somewhere in the thread (there's no lock up, no smoke, no hastily corrective action on the steering wheel), just did not make it. I can apportion some blame to Vettel as the move was a bit of a lunge, but evidently lunges are allowed (even if I do not agree with them), so Horner should first take a look at his drivers before blaming others.

I do wonder how much did the outcome form the stewards decision though, had Vettel made it and Max had to re-join 19th. Maybe because it was Vettel's race that was ruined, they decided the way they did.

In any case, if the driver (that did so many other overtakes without any issue) thought he had the opportunity to go for it, then I'm ok with it. We can't get the feeling that the driver has in the cockpit, when they feel that it is ok to overtake or not. For all we know (as Zoue pointed out) he could have been stuck behind Max for another few laps destroying his tires.

As for the Kimi incident, Max was having a laugh. The angle he came in made it certain that he would go straight on Kimi. And for me what is quite telling is his attitude, coming on the radio straight away blaming another driver for doing the thing he should be doing, driving normally on his line. He expected Kimi to lift! Does Max somehow think that drivers have to stop to accommodate a driver re-joining the race? Should Vettel have pushed his way in instead of patiently waiting for the whole pack to go by before rejoining? He should re-read the rules then, as it is clear he has no understanding. The FIA should make sure that all drivers know they bloody rules. This kid has a bright future, but he needs someone to coach him, coach his ego a bit. He's not going to make many friends there otherwise.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:29 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Looked like an opportunistic dive bomb to me.
Looking at Max's on-board, he'd committed to his line through the corner well before Seb slung it up the inside.
Look again, it shows he was defending.
Laz_T800 wrote:
Even if Max had taken a wider line, Seb's closing speed was such that he was very likely to make contact with Max.
Then why didn't he? If he was convinced Seb couldn't make the corner on the inside, he should have set up for a switchback. He didn't, perhaps because he didn't think Vettel's speed was excessive?

Laz_T800 wrote:
If someone had done the same to Seb he'd have condemned the move in the same way Max has.
Quite possibly.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:10 am 
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Didn't Verstappen get the penalty for his coming together with Kimi at the chicane? There he clearly rejoined the track without checking it was clear. It's not good enough for him to say he was just rejoining and didnt see Kimi. Like on the road, if you join from your drive it's your responsibility to make sure the road is clear.

As for Seb's move on Max: Ridiculously risky given Max's impending penalty. Would Hamilton have tried that? Looks like Vettel has said 'Sod it, let's go for it!' as the Championship is gone.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:24 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.

But Vettel wasnt crowded off the track - he still had space to his left - even when he and Verstappen touched there was space there. He was just going too fast to be able to use it.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:09 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.


So in this case what are you blaming Verstappen for? According to you he left enough room.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:39 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.

But Vettel wasnt crowded off the track - he still had space to his left - even when he and Verstappen touched there was space there. He was just going too fast to be able to use it.
He didn't have to go further up the kerbs, he was under no greater obligation to give Max room, than Max had to give to him.

How did you establish Vettel was too fast to make the corner on the inside, had Verstappen not hit him?

You follow Schumacher's reasoning as to when a driver has pushed another off the track. Whether that is a correct interpretation of the rules remains to be seen. I believe he asked for clarification about this when he was challenged on that view. I wish I could read that clarification, and whether that clarification still stands after all the editing done to the rules since.
This is what is in Appendix L now:
Quote:
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
And:
Quote:
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Whether that final sentence can be invoked by a driver leaving a competitor less than a car width, to claim he left enough, is something that I believe should be made clear once and for all. This might not satisfy Joe Public, but I hope most of us would enjoy sportsmanship more than spectacular accidents.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.


So in this case what are you blaming Verstappen for? According to you he left enough room.
I didn't write Max left enough room this time, just that the rule saying he had to leave a car width didn't apply. Max kept turning in, despite knowing a car was alongside.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/139224/vettel-verstappen-completely-to-blame-for-clash

Vettel feels very strongly that the incident was Max's fault. I have decided to really take a second look at it and give him a chance. I'm going to say it's a racing incident and not Vettel's fault alone. Vettel's explanation rings true to me on some level. It's also just his general commentary about Max that I think I can relate to. I think Vettel (and others) is beginning to be a bit annoyed by Max's attitude out there. This is a snippet of what he had to say about the Dutchman:

"As soon as he realizes somebody is close or next to him, he tries to - in my opinion - push when you shouldn't push anymore.

"Look at [the incident with] Kimi, he's [Verstappen] off the track and comes back and if Kimi just drives on they'd collide.

"But it's not always right that the other guy has to move. We're all racing, the race is long."


I can see where he's coming from. Kimi Raikkonen also said the following:

"He ran wide and he went off the track and I just went on the outside at the next corner, leaving him space on the inside," Raikkonen said.

"He knew that I was there and he just drove into me and pushed me off the track."


Again, I agree. It's Max's responsibility to rejoin the track safely but he seems to think it's Kimi's responsibility to avoid the collision from him rejoining hastily. I like Max and I absolutely rate him and his talents but his attitude stinks out there and I'd like to see some evolution in that area.


I completely agree. I can't blame a driver for going for an opportunistic overtake, it works most times for Max's team mate. But Vettel did this move, did not look like he lost the car as suggested somewhere in the thread (there's no lock up, no smoke, no hastily corrective action on the steering wheel), just did not make it. I can apportion some blame to Vettel as the move was a bit of a lunge, but evidently lunges are allowed (even if I do not agree with them), so Horner should first take a look at his drivers before blaming others.

I do wonder how much did the outcome form the stewards decision though, had Vettel made it and Max had to re-join 19th. Maybe because it was Vettel's race that was ruined, they decided the way they did.

In any case, if the driver (that did so many other overtakes without any issue) thought he had the opportunity to go for it, then I'm ok with it. We can't get the feeling that the driver has in the cockpit, when they feel that it is ok to overtake or not. For all we know (as Zoue pointed out) he could have been stuck behind Max for another few laps destroying his tires.

As for the Kimi incident, Max was having a laugh. The angle he came in made it certain that he would go straight on Kimi. And for me what is quite telling is his attitude, coming on the radio straight away blaming another driver for doing the thing he should be doing, driving normally on his line. He expected Kimi to lift! Does Max somehow think that drivers have to stop to accommodate a driver re-joining the race? Should Vettel have pushed his way in instead of patiently waiting for the whole pack to go by before rejoining? He should re-read the rules then, as it is clear he has no understanding. The FIA should make sure that all drivers know they bloody rules. This kid has a bright future, but he needs someone to coach him, coach his ego a bit. He's not going to make many friends there otherwise.

Max's mentality during the incident with Kimi was all about not losing a position. Any defense of him begins with the assumption that he has some right to that position. That Kimi should expect Max to rejoin in front of him. The fact is that when you run off the circuit it might rightfully cost you a position or two. The burden of rejoining safely and not gaining an advantage is totally reasonable.

I've seen many times in multiple races Max locking up while defending and straight-lining the chicane only to rejoin as quickly as possible without losing the position. He did that to Bottas recently at Monza. He's just always pushing the limit with the rules out there.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/139224/vettel-verstappen-completely-to-blame-for-clash

Vettel feels very strongly that the incident was Max's fault. I have decided to really take a second look at it and give him a chance. I'm going to say it's a racing incident and not Vettel's fault alone. Vettel's explanation rings true to me on some level. It's also just his general commentary about Max that I think I can relate to. I think Vettel (and others) is beginning to be a bit annoyed by Max's attitude out there. This is a snippet of what he had to say about the Dutchman:

"As soon as he realizes somebody is close or next to him, he tries to - in my opinion - push when you shouldn't push anymore.

"Look at [the incident with] Kimi, he's [Verstappen] off the track and comes back and if Kimi just drives on they'd collide.

"But it's not always right that the other guy has to move. We're all racing, the race is long."


I can see where he's coming from. Kimi Raikkonen also said the following:

"He ran wide and he went off the track and I just went on the outside at the next corner, leaving him space on the inside," Raikkonen said.

"He knew that I was there and he just drove into me and pushed me off the track."


Again, I agree. It's Max's responsibility to rejoin the track safely but he seems to think it's Kimi's responsibility to avoid the collision from him rejoining hastily. I like Max and I absolutely rate him and his talents but his attitude stinks out there and I'd like to see some evolution in that area.


I completely agree. I can't blame a driver for going for an opportunistic overtake, it works most times for Max's team mate. But Vettel did this move, did not look like he lost the car as suggested somewhere in the thread (there's no lock up, no smoke, no hastily corrective action on the steering wheel), just did not make it. I can apportion some blame to Vettel as the move was a bit of a lunge, but evidently lunges are allowed (even if I do not agree with them), so Horner should first take a look at his drivers before blaming others.

I do wonder how much did the outcome form the stewards decision though, had Vettel made it and Max had to re-join 19th. Maybe because it was Vettel's race that was ruined, they decided the way they did.

In any case, if the driver (that did so many other overtakes without any issue) thought he had the opportunity to go for it, then I'm ok with it. We can't get the feeling that the driver has in the cockpit, when they feel that it is ok to overtake or not. For all we know (as Zoue pointed out) he could have been stuck behind Max for another few laps destroying his tires.

As for the Kimi incident, Max was having a laugh. The angle he came in made it certain that he would go straight on Kimi. And for me what is quite telling is his attitude, coming on the radio straight away blaming another driver for doing the thing he should be doing, driving normally on his line. He expected Kimi to lift! Does Max somehow think that drivers have to stop to accommodate a driver re-joining the race? Should Vettel have pushed his way in instead of patiently waiting for the whole pack to go by before rejoining? He should re-read the rules then, as it is clear he has no understanding. The FIA should make sure that all drivers know they bloody rules. This kid has a bright future, but he needs someone to coach him, coach his ego a bit. He's not going to make many friends there otherwise.

Max's mentality during the incident with Kimi was all about not losing a position. Any defense of him begins with the assumption that he has some right to that position. That Kimi should expect Max to rejoin in front of him. The fact is that when you run off the circuit it might rightfully cost you a position or two. The burden of rejoining safely and not gaining an advantage is totally reasonable.

I've seen many times in multiple races Max locking up while defending and straight-lining the chicane only to rejoin as quickly as possible without losing the position. He did that to Bottas recently at Monza. He's just always pushing the limit with the rules out there.


Of course, that's what every driver wants, to minimise the loss. But to then come straight on the radio after he barged someone out of the road and complain that Kimi should have lifted, it was fun to watch. I think that if I was the steward and my decision was 50-50, I'd give him the penalty just for that statement, as he clearly does not understand how a safe rejoining of the track works. As you said he has done this a number of times now and it is not on really


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

If it is, then I have to disappoint you. The discussion was about why Kimi did NOT have to leave a car's width of space. And that was because he never left the racing line to defend. And the reason Max went off-track to pass Kimi, was because he couldn't get the job done legally.
The purpose of that post was mainly to explain when somebody was no longer on-track, and when the rules say you have to leave "a car's width of space". Neither was the case then.
This morning's incident wasn't about leaving a car's width of space as per the same rule. Max had not left the racing line to defend, and therefore did not have to leave a car's width worth of space on the outside when moving back towards the racing line. This morning was about not being allowed to crowd somebody off the track.

So no, I haven't changed my mind, you simply misunderstood, just as Lamo did last year.

If you were referrring to another of my posts on that page, please point out which one. And thank you for finding the thread, I'm clearly no good at using the search function.


It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.


So in this case what are you blaming Verstappen for? According to you he left enough room.
I didn't write Max left enough room this time, just that the rule saying he had to leave a car width didn't apply. Max kept turning in, despite knowing a car was alongside.


Just like Kimi in Austin.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:58 pm 
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I'm definitely no Vettel fan and this one was maybe 50/50 but all four drivers from Merc and Ferrari have had to excercise unecssary caution with Verstappen this season and last where they could expect better but still competitive driving from the more mature members of the grid.

Something tells me that once the WDC is decided (or maybe the WCC to be on the safe side) Verstappen will get his elbows out as usual but either Vettel or Hamilton will put him into the Armco. My money's on Vettel.

.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
It wasn't last year for Kimi either? It was pretty much an identical situation where the Verstappen was on the inside and not given a cars width of space by Kimi. Something you are now accusing Verstappen of. Your argument against that was he doesn't have to. He just has to allow the car on the inside to remain on track in line with the rules, I.E as long as a tiny portion can stay on it's fine.

Not being allowed to crowd someone off the track is also covered in that post. Something you say Kimi was not guilty of despite hmim leaving no more space than Verstappen did yesterday.

So, do you think Verstappen had to leave Vettel are cars width of space or is he entitled to crowd him almost all the way over the curb?
Mikey, if you read the rule as published, it's clear neither Kimi last year, nor Max this weekend, were required to leave a car width of space. Look at the underlined part.
Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

In the corner, with a car alongside, I am surprised the stewards didn't refer to this, the following line in Appendix L:
Quote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.


Last year, Verstappen chose to leave the track, so his overtake couldn't stand. This year, Vettel chose to make an overtake according the rules. Why Max chose contact instead of yielding, I simply don't understand - see also Paul-gmb's post and my reply.


So in this case what are you blaming Verstappen for? According to you he left enough room.
I didn't write Max left enough room this time, just that the rule saying he had to leave a car width didn't apply. Max kept turning in, despite knowing a car was alongside.


Just like Kimi in Austin.
Your memory is playing tricks on you Mikey. Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aljfbhxtdyc Max's on-board footage is interesting from 5:53 onwards. You can see Max turn fully onto the kerbs, despite being left room for his left tyres. Kimi never touched Max's car, so the two cases aren't similar.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Fiki wrote:

Just like Kimi in Austin.
Your memory is playing tricks on you Mikey. Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aljfbhxtdyc Max's on-board footage is interesting from 5:53 onwards. You can see Max turn fully onto the kerbs, despite being left room for his left tyres. Kimi never touched Max's car, so the two cases aren't similar.[/quote]

So what you're saying is had Verstappen not cut the corner and made contact with Kimi the accident would've been Kimi's fault? I'm still puzzled at the offence you're laying at Verstappen's door here if it isn't leaving enough space.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Just like Kimi in Austin.
Your memory is playing tricks on you Mikey. Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aljfbhxtdyc Max's on-board footage is interesting from 5:53 onwards. You can see Max turn fully onto the kerbs, despite being left room for his left tyres. Kimi never touched Max's car, so the two cases aren't similar.


So what you're saying is had Verstappen not cut the corner and made contact with Kimi the accident would've been Kimi's fault? I'm still puzzled at the offence you're laying at Verstappen's door here if it isn't leaving enough space.
Why bring in contact? :?
If Verstappen had not cut the corner, but kept his left wheels in contact with the white lines (or even on the black stuff), and made the pass, he would have been third. Had he done so making contact with Räikkönen, the stewards would have had to establish who caused the accident. The reason Max did cut the corner may have been because he thought keeping only his right wheels on the kerbs might have made his car twitch and hit Kimi. Or perhaps he just thought nobody would notice he had been off the track. With Max, you're just never sure.
Edit: If Max had kept in contact with the track, with Kimi not altering the line he drove in the real incident, the accident would not have been Kimi's fault but Max's. Clear now?

If you brought in the notion of contact to compare with yesterday, then I have to be honest and say that the more I look at the incident, the more I am convinced it was really caused by Max. Why? Because he knew he was under attack when he turned in, and did nothing to avoid a collision.
But I will add that I would love to hear the stewards explain why they came to a racing incident verdict.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:46 am 
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Chunky wrote:
I'm definitely no Vettel fan and this one was maybe 50/50 but all four drivers from Merc and Ferrari have had to excercise unecssary caution with Verstappen this season and last where they could expect better but still competitive driving from the more mature members of the grid.

Something tells me that once the WDC is decided (or maybe the WCC to be on the safe side) Verstappen will get his elbows out as usual but either Vettel or Hamilton will put him into the Armco. My money's on Vettel.

.

Vettel has said he is going to have a quiet word to Verstappen about the incident, I would like to be a fly on the wall.

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