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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:13 am 
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So I’m old enough to not get into the fanboy arguments but wasn’t Vettel halfway up the inside of Verstappen at Spoon? How is that not a penalty? I know he already had one but really if we’re being fair???

For full disclosure I’m a Ferrari fan since 1985 and I was there at the race (but at the start/finish straight so watching on the screen but still).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:30 am 
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mfields262 wrote:
So I’m old enough to not get into the fanboy arguments but wasn’t Vettel halfway up the inside of Verstappen at Spoon? How is that not a penalty? I know he already had one but really if we’re being fair???

For full disclosure I’m a Ferrari fan since 1985 and I was there at the race (but at the start/finish straight so watching on the screen but still).


The majority view seems to be that the stewards got this one right and that Vettel was more to blame.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:37 am 
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I'm no fan of Verstappens and enjoy sinking the slipper legitimately whenever I can.

This aint one of those times.

Vettels fault.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:40 am 
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Verstappen left just enough room which is all he has to do within the rules.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:47 am 
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Legally, it was a racing incident as Max left a car's width and no more, which is why there was no punishment.

Practically though, it was a stupid place to try and pass because Vettel was always going to run wide. It was never going to succeed, especially against Max, and Vettel had far more to lose.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:10 am 
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Not a clue what Vettel was trying to do there
a) the move wasn't on, he was way too far back
b) even if the move was on, why are you trying a move like that on Verstappen of all people?
c) Verstappen was keeping up with the Mercs and had a penalty anyway so Vettel was guaranteed that position and it's not like he was losing time to the Mercs.

Just baffles me that he would try that, there was no point anyway and the likelihood of it going wrong was incredibly high.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:13 am 
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.

Vettel regularly "lunges" at corners.

He seems to have the idea that if he takes the inside line at high speed then everyone on the racing line HAS to ( JUST HAS TO ) give way to him cutting across "because he is alongside" ( ignoring the fact that he is braking madly and can only make the corner if no one else continues innocently on their racing line allowing him to cut across to the outside of the corner ).

He has got away with that several times, and has also come to grief !

I don't understand why someone doesn't explain the laws of physics to him, that if you go too fast on the inside you will NOT be able to turn bang on the apex of the curve !

I also wonder whether Ferrari have made their suspension tougher than others, often when Vettel hits others their cars are damaged whilst the Ferrari survives relatively unharmed


Last edited by Greenman on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:29 am 
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I’ll go with the majority decision (especially as I was watching iron the screen along with everyone else) but I felt he was at lesser halfway alongside the inside as was the “rule” for these sort of “maneuvers” but I could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:41 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Not a clue what Vettel was trying to do there
a) the move wasn't on, he was way too far back
b) even if the move was on, why are you trying a move like that on Verstappen of all people?
c) Verstappen was keeping up with the Mercs and had a penalty anyway so Vettel was guaranteed that position and it's not like he was losing time to the Mercs.

Just baffles me that he would try that, there was no point anyway and the likelihood of it going wrong was incredibly high.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Racing incident for me. It was very optimistic trying to overtake into that corner and there seemed to be an expectation from Vettel that Verstappen was going to jump out of the way. However Vettel was alongside and so I think Verstappen could have left a little more space and then contact could have been avoided. I don't think it was worthy of a penalty to either driver.

I was more concerned at why Vettel even attempted the pass in the first place. It was unnecessary given Verstappen's five second penalty and that the Mercedes were not disappearing up the road, and judging from how strong Verstappen was at the end of the race on the soft tyres, Vettel could really have been in contention at the end if he'd been a little more patient.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Not a clue what Vettel was trying to do there
a) the move wasn't on, he was way too far back
b) even if the move was on, why are you trying a move like that on Verstappen of all people?
c) Verstappen was keeping up with the Mercs and had a penalty anyway so Vettel was guaranteed that position and it's not like he was losing time to the Mercs.

Just baffles me that he would try that, there was no point anyway and the likelihood of it going wrong was incredibly high.
Putting your points a and b to one side, I am baffled by the obvious point you appear to be missing: using what his tyres have in them! Losing time on the Mercedes, or not losing it, isn't sufficient. He has to get past Bottas as quickly as possible, and remaining in Max's sliptstream instead of Bottas's serves no purpose whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:39 pm 
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.

Vettel was NOT "alongside" (except in his own idiosyncratic interpretation of "alongside").

Max was on the racing line.

Vettel was going too fast to go around near the apex of the corner. He charged in and would only make the corner by going to the outside of the track. AND what was in the way ? Answer, the "alongside" Max !

The physics of racing cars going around a corner doesn't change, and Vettel thinking that a collision course is "alongside" doesn't change physics.

.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:45 pm 
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A few people have mentioned the racing line.... It's irrelevant who is on the racing line, as if the racing line even exists as a thing. You can't just religiously stick to the racing line and ignore everything going on around you. Verstappen left room for Vettel which is all he had to do.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Greenman wrote:
.

Vettel was NOT "alongside" (except in his own idiosyncratic interpretation of "alongside").

Max was on the racing line.

Vettel was going too fast to go around near the apex of the corner. He charged in and would only make the corner by going to the outside of the track. AND what was in the way ? Answer, the "alongside" Max !

The physics of racing cars going around a corner doesn't change, and Vettel thinking that a collision course is "alongside" doesn't change physics.

.
If Vettel was not alongside, how did his front wing manage to touch Verstappen's front tyre? Try answering the "alongside" yourself, dear Greenman! You might also like to look at the angle both cars were at when that touch took place.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
A few people have mentioned the racing line.... It's irrelevant who is on the racing line, as if the racing line even exists as a thing. You can't just religiously stick to the racing line and ignore everything going on around you. Verstappen left room for Vettel which is all he had to do.

I'm not convinced he left sufficient room as Vettel was halfway over the kerbs. I think there was plenty more track but Verstappen left Vettel with nowhere to go


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:57 pm 
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j man wrote:
Racing incident for me. It was very optimistic trying to overtake into that corner and there seemed to be an expectation from Vettel that Verstappen was going to jump out of the way. However Vettel was alongside and so I think Verstappen could have left a little more space and then contact could have been avoided. I don't think it was worthy of a penalty to either driver.

I was more concerned at why Vettel even attempted the pass in the first place. It was unnecessary given Verstappen's five second penalty and that the Mercedes were not disappearing up the road, and judging from how strong Verstappen was at the end of the race on the soft tyres, Vettel could really have been in contention at the end if he'd been a little more patient.

All with hindsight, though. It was imperative Vettel take any opportunity to get ahead as he had no way of knowing how long Verstappen was going to run for and how much the Mercs would pull away. I can see the logic of the attempt. It was risky, sure, but it's very rare to get an easy pass from the front runners these days


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
A few people have mentioned the racing line.... It's irrelevant who is on the racing line, as if the racing line even exists as a thing. You can't just religiously stick to the racing line and ignore everything going on around you. Verstappen left room for Vettel which is all he had to do.
Strictly speaking, it does exist, since the rules mention it, albeit only once, and not in connection with a case like this.

I would like to see footage from a bit earlier in the lap, as it seems to me that Verstappen was defending already, staying away from the righthand side of the track. I might be wrong about this, but it would explain why he never claimed he was unaware of the attack. If he had been unaware, the action would have made sense from his side.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

Vettel was NOT "alongside" (except in his own idiosyncratic interpretation of "alongside").

Max was on the racing line.

Vettel was going too fast to go around near the apex of the corner. He charged in and would only make the corner by going to the outside of the track. AND what was in the way ? Answer, the "alongside" Max !

The physics of racing cars going around a corner doesn't change, and Vettel thinking that a collision course is "alongside" doesn't change physics.

.
If Vettel was not alongside, how did his front wing manage to touch Verstappen's front tyre? Try answering the "alongside" yourself, dear Greenman! You might also like to look at the angle both cars were at when that touch took place.


seriously. so anyone can divebomb into a corner but as long as they get partially alongside before the apex its ok to run into the other car. vettel tried a dan ric divebomb without the necessary skills to do so and into a fast corner. he was way too far back. if he was alongside before the braking zone it might have worked but he was way back. sorry but only vettel fans will see this any other way.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:25 pm 
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I think that Sebastian threw his result away in the cockup with Max. Had he been more patient, he would have had a better chance at passing Valtteri at the end than Max had. Could have easily been: 1. Lewis, 2. Sebastian, 3. Valtteri on the podium.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:36 pm 
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:thumbup:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think that Sebastian threw his result away in the cockup with Max. Had he been more patient, he would have had a better chance at passing Valtteri at the end than Max had. Could have easily been: 1. Lewis, 2. Sebastian, 3. Valtteri on the podium.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

Vettel was NOT "alongside" (except in his own idiosyncratic interpretation of "alongside").

Max was on the racing line.

Vettel was going too fast to go around near the apex of the corner. He charged in and would only make the corner by going to the outside of the track. AND what was in the way ? Answer, the "alongside" Max !

The physics of racing cars going around a corner doesn't change, and Vettel thinking that a collision course is "alongside" doesn't change physics.

.
If Vettel was not alongside, how did his front wing manage to touch Verstappen's front tyre? Try answering the "alongside" yourself, dear Greenman! You might also like to look at the angle both cars were at when that touch took place.


seriously. so anyone can divebomb into a corner but as long as they get partially alongside before the apex its ok to run into the other car. vettel tried a dan ric divebomb without the necessary skills to do so and into a fast corner. he was way too far back. if he was alongside before the braking zone it might have worked but he was way back. sorry but only vettel fans will see this any other way.
Seriously.

Do we have access to a speed indication that shows Vettel would be unable to make the corner if Max had given a car's width? Just so we are clear on this; he didn't do that, or Vettel would not have been up on the kerbs.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

Vettel was NOT "alongside" (except in his own idiosyncratic interpretation of "alongside").

Max was on the racing line.

Vettel was going too fast to go around near the apex of the corner. He charged in and would only make the corner by going to the outside of the track. AND what was in the way ? Answer, the "alongside" Max !

The physics of racing cars going around a corner doesn't change, and Vettel thinking that a collision course is "alongside" doesn't change physics.

.
If Vettel was not alongside, how did his front wing manage to touch Verstappen's front tyre? Try answering the "alongside" yourself, dear Greenman! You might also like to look at the angle both cars were at when that touch took place.


seriously. so anyone can divebomb into a corner but as long as they get partially alongside before the apex its ok to run into the other car. vettel tried a dan ric divebomb without the necessary skills to do so and into a fast corner. he was way too far back. if he was alongside before the braking zone it might have worked but he was way back. sorry but only vettel fans will see this any other way.
Seriously.

Do we have access to a speed indication that shows Vettel would be unable to make the corner if Max had given a car's width? Just so we are clear on this; he didn't do that, or Vettel would not have been up on the kerbs.


Vettel didn't hit Max on the curb. Whilst he was on the curb there was always space to his right.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:30 pm 
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There seems to be a running theme that the few in this forum who think this incident was Max's fault tend to be either those who are firmly on record as not liking MV and/or those that defend Ferrari blindly at all costs.

Vettel got his front wing level with the back of Verstappen's front tyres but was always going to have to take a compromised line to make the corner. This was a sweeping fast corner, Max would have had to habe totally yielded the position backmarker style or gone off track to get out of Vettel's way.

This wasn't a swipe across the track from Max, it was taking the natural line.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:37 pm 
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mfields262 wrote:
So I’m old enough to not get into the fanboy arguments but wasn’t Vettel halfway up the inside of Verstappen at Spoon? How is that not a penalty? I know he already had one but really if we’re being fair???

For full disclosure I’m a Ferrari fan since 1985 and I was there at the race (but at the start/finish straight so watching on the screen but still).

He was there that quick. He dived up from such a distance behind one of two things was going to happen. 1. Verstappen and Vettel collided or 2. Vettel used Max as a break.

It's all down to the last split second where it seemed like (similar to before) Vettel wasn't in complete control.

Racing incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:53 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
There seems to be a running theme that the few in this forum who think this incident was Max's fault tend to be either those who are firmly on record as not liking MV and/or those that defend Ferrari blindly at all costs.

Vettel got his front wing level with the back of Verstappen's front tyres but was always going to have to take a compromised line to make the corner. This was a sweeping fast corner, Max would have had to habe totally yielded the position backmarker style or gone off track to get out of Vettel's way.

This wasn't a swipe across the track from Max, it was taking the natural line.

Ah, the old "let's try to discredit everyone who disagrees with me" approach. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

Vettel was NOT "alongside" (except in his own idiosyncratic interpretation of "alongside").

Max was on the racing line.

Vettel was going too fast to go around near the apex of the corner. He charged in and would only make the corner by going to the outside of the track. AND what was in the way ? Answer, the "alongside" Max !

The physics of racing cars going around a corner doesn't change, and Vettel thinking that a collision course is "alongside" doesn't change physics.

.
If Vettel was not alongside, how did his front wing manage to touch Verstappen's front tyre? Try answering the "alongside" yourself, dear Greenman! You might also like to look at the angle both cars were at when that touch took place.


seriously. so anyone can divebomb into a corner but as long as they get partially alongside before the apex its ok to run into the other car. vettel tried a dan ric divebomb without the necessary skills to do so and into a fast corner. he was way too far back. if he was alongside before the braking zone it might have worked but he was way back. sorry but only vettel fans will see this any other way.
Seriously.

Do we have access to a speed indication that shows Vettel would be unable to make the corner if Max had given a car's width? Just so we are clear on this; he didn't do that, or Vettel would not have been up on the kerbs.


Vettel didn't hit Max on the curb. Whilst he was on the curb there was always space to his right.

I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Feel like in this instance the result shows who was in the wrong, hence no action from the stewards. Verstappen was in control and at a good speed for his line, leaving a cars width. Vettel was on the inside, off the racing line and no doubt on the edge of the grip for the tyres, so as he understeered in to the side of max he was easily spun round? Must say it seems odd not thinking verstappen is in the wrong for once.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
There seems to be a running theme that the few in this forum who think this incident was Max's fault tend to be either those who are firmly on record as not liking MV and/or those that defend Ferrari blindly at all costs.

Vettel got his front wing level with the back of Verstappen's front tyres but was always going to have to take a compromised line to make the corner. This was a sweeping fast corner, Max would have had to habe totally yielded the position backmarker style or gone off track to get out of Vettel's way.

This wasn't a swipe across the track from Max, it was taking the natural line.

Ah, the old "let's try to discredit everyone who disagrees with me" approach. :uhoh:


I'm afraid you are doing an impeccable job of discrediting yourself. Again not a single credible pundit has this down as Verstappen's fault. Seb has gone for an incredibly low percentage move, gambled on red and it came up black.

Spoon curve is the very definition of a one line corner.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:39 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
There seems to be a running theme that the few in this forum who think this incident was Max's fault tend to be either those who are firmly on record as not liking MV and/or those that defend Ferrari blindly at all costs.

Vettel got his front wing level with the back of Verstappen's front tyres but was always going to have to take a compromised line to make the corner. This was a sweeping fast corner, Max would have had to habe totally yielded the position backmarker style or gone off track to get out of Vettel's way.

This wasn't a swipe across the track from Max, it was taking the natural line.

Ah, the old "let's try to discredit everyone who disagrees with me" approach. :uhoh:


I'm afraid you are doing an impeccable job of discrediting yourself. Again not a single credible pundit has this down as Verstappen's fault. Seb has gone for an incredibly low percentage move, gambled on red and it came up black.

Spoon curve is the very definition of a one line corner.

I don't have an issue with you taking the position you do on whose fault it was. But you do your argument, or the discussion, no favours by trying to dismiss every opposing argument as fanboy or otherwise biased ravings. It's possible prove a point using just logic and reason. And if someone disagrees, that doesn't mean they're a swivel-eyed lunatic


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.

I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.

I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out
Looking at second 24, the point of contact, Vettel's left front wheel is to the left of the white line, and therefore on the kerb. I don't understand what mikeyg means. :?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:05 pm 
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I'm no Max fan, but I'd put this one almost entirely onto Vettel. He came from so far behind and committed to a dive bomb on a driver who was never going to just back out and avoid him. Max left enough space for Vettel to get back out of the move, but not enough for him to overtake.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think that's true. Vettel was all over the kerb and still came together with Max, which suggests that there was no space for him on the track, surely?


He wasn't on the curb when the contact was made. When he was on the curb he didn't have to be, there was space to the right.

I don't see it, sorry. All I see is him over the kerb and Max coming together with him. So if there was more space then they wouldn't have hit? I don't really understand what you're saying, sorry, as I see something completely different? :?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N3SItwAvKU

Look at 24 seconds the point of contact. Vettel has just come off the curb.

I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out



He takes the line he had every right to take as Vettel never got past him at any point in that move. Vettel had the option of backing out and chose not to take it.

Seb could have left more room when Bottas hit him at Hungary, but it doesn't change the fact that it was Bottas' fault.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:37 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm looking at it I just don't see it. Not trying to be difficult, but I just see Vettel being sliced up and to me Max has acres of room on the outside and just turns in as though Vettel isn't there. I reckon if that had been e.g. Hamilton or Kimi they would have taken a wider line than Max did and not put themselves at risk of being taken out

He takes the line he had every right to take as Vettel never got past him at any point in that move. Vettel had the option of backing out and chose not to take it.
I have no idea what you are trying to say there.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:54 pm 
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I got a bit of de ja vu reading some of the comments in here, then I remembered why

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14731

Makes some fairly interesting reading when compared to todays chat.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I'm no Max fan, but I'd put this one almost entirely onto Vettel. He came from so far behind and committed to a dive bomb on a driver who was never going to just back out and avoid him. Max left enough space for Vettel to get back out of the move, but not enough for him to overtake.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:13 pm 
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an article on why Vettel had to go for it

https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/907427/1/f1-race-analysis-why-vettel-was-right-go-gap


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