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 Post subject: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Although the commentators tried to spice it up, the finish of the US GP was a procession. The 1st 3 cars were covered by 2 seconds, and no overtaking in the last 10 laps. Despite DRS, cars of similar performance from 3 different teams could not get close enough to attack, never mind pass. The DRS 1-second gap now looks too small on a circuit without a huge straight. So what do we do? Bigger and even draggier rear wings? Maybe we need all-new tracks with mile-long straights?

Hopefully the simpler front wings will help for 2019. But experience suggests designers will claw back any lost downforce somehow. This passing problem has blighted F1 for nearly 25 years now, despite narrower cars, grooved tyres, flat-bottoms, and now wider cars again. Have wind-tunnels and CFD killed close racing for good?


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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:18 pm 
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I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...


:thumbup: :nod:

Yeah, Lewis attacked Max and probably could have made it work if he had renewed the attack. I suspect he realized that as long as he had Sebastian behind him, it was not worth risking a collision with Max just to get up and challenge Kimi. Even Lewis said that he gave Max too much room trying to pass him.

Lewis was just being cautious and consolidating a good points day.

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:43 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Although the commentators tried to spice it up, the finish of the US GP was a procession. The 1st 3 cars were covered by 2 seconds, and no overtaking in the last 10 laps. Despite DRS, cars of similar performance from 3 different teams could not get close enough to attack, never mind pass. The DRS 1-second gap now looks too small on a circuit without a huge straight. So what do we do? Bigger and even draggier rear wings? Maybe we need all-new tracks with mile-long straights?

Hopefully the simpler front wings will help for 2019. But experience suggests designers will claw back any lost downforce somehow. This passing problem has blighted F1 for nearly 25 years now, despite narrower cars, grooved tyres, flat-bottoms, and now wider cars again. Have wind-tunnels and CFD killed close racing for good?


The problem is how to reduce the turbulent air behind the cars. If a trailing car can get close to a leading car and still keep most of it's downforce, then we will have good racing and passing. Getting rid of the "outwash" design of the current front wings where the front wings generate vortexes that move away from the cars will help a lot if the FIA has the fortitude to mandate those changes.

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:07 am 
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Are we pretending Japan didn't happen?

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:23 am 
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This is not the right race to complain about overtaking.


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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:09 am 
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But if passing was simple where would the tension have been? If overtaking is easy the fast cars automatically get to the front, besides, Max went from 18th to 2nd.....

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:36 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...

I think Lewis was right on the edge there, and Max did make a small mistake that allowed Lewis to slip alongside didn't he?


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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:40 am 
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kleefton wrote:
This is not the right race to complain about overtaking.


Why not? I don't recall any overtakes among the leaders after lap 1 - except Vettel passing Bottas when his tyres were shot. The leaders seem always able to cut through the field from poor grid positions, but this is usually with no resistance from those they're passing, who are told by their teams to concentrate on their own race with whoever. If they did put up a fight the problem might seem more obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:44 am 
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You wont see much overtaking between the top cars unless there's rain, different tyre compounds or life on the tyres and mistakes. The majority of tracks are an issue too and when you see in Austin track position is key because you can't follow then there is a problem. The delta between the top teams for overtaking is always a second if not much more, it's ridiculous.

Another issue is lack of strategy, at least Austin showed what happens when the top 3 cars have different strategies, constant one stop races doesn't improve the show.

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:47 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
Are we pretending Japan didn't happen?


What happened in Japan?

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:07 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...

I think Lewis was right on the edge there, and Max did make a small mistake that allowed Lewis to slip alongside didn't he?

Not really, Hamilton was treating Verstappen like he had a bomb in his car, he left miles of space. If he were a little more aggressive he could have overtaken Verstappen and Kimi earlier in the race. He backed out of anything but a 'breeze past' move because he knew it wasn't worth it.

I think Austin is one of the better tracks for overtaking, the fact that the top 3 cars were able to actually go wheel to wheel with each other speaks volumes IMO, that rarely happens unless one has a significant tyre advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...

I think Lewis was right on the edge there, and Max did make a small mistake that allowed Lewis to slip alongside didn't he?

Not really, Hamilton was treating Verstappen like he had a bomb in his car, he left miles of space. If he were a little more aggressive he could have overtaken Verstappen and Kimi earlier in the race. He backed out of anything but a 'breeze past' move because he knew it wasn't worth it.

I think Austin is one of the better tracks for overtaking, the fact that the top 3 cars were able to actually go wheel to wheel with each other speaks volumes IMO, that rarely happens unless one has a significant tyre advantage.


Hamilton wasn't get past Kimi on track, Ferrari engine was too powerful and Mercedes confirmed this themselves.

The only move I saw was Hamilton on Verstappen and this only happened due to a mistake, the reason the cars managed to go wheel to wheel was due to strategy really, Hamilton being on fresher tyres and attacking. That's what I would like to see more off but who would know Austin would end up being a track position is key race.

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:07 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...

I think Lewis was right on the edge there, and Max did make a small mistake that allowed Lewis to slip alongside didn't he?

Not really, Hamilton was treating Verstappen like he had a bomb in his car, he left miles of space. If he were a little more aggressive he could have overtaken Verstappen and Kimi earlier in the race. He backed out of anything but a 'breeze past' move because he knew it wasn't worth it.

I think Austin is one of the better tracks for overtaking, the fact that the top 3 cars were able to actually go wheel to wheel with each other speaks volumes IMO, that rarely happens unless one has a significant tyre advantage.


Hamilton wasn't get past Kimi on track, Ferrari engine was too powerful and Mercedes confirmed this themselves.

The only move I saw was Hamilton on Verstappen and this only happened due to a mistake, the reason the cars managed to go wheel to wheel was due to strategy really, Hamilton being on fresher tyres and attacking. That's what I would like to see more off but who would know Austin would end up being a track position is key race.

Hamilton was very hesitant with Kimi, he could have made a move stick into T1 a few times. Did Verstappen make a mistake? I thought he simply fell slightly outside of DRS range of Kimi.

Also we saw Vettel overtake Bottas on near identical strategies, a Ferrari overtaking a Merc or vice versa is very rare.

Track position is always important in F1, but Austin is a good track for overtaking and the race on Sunday showed that IMO. I don't think I'd want it to be any easier than it was then.


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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I must have been imagining things, then, when Lewis got close enough to Max to attack, had a brilliant wheel-to-wheel battle, and lost the position after running wide...

I think Lewis was right on the edge there, and Max did make a small mistake that allowed Lewis to slip alongside didn't he?

Not really, Hamilton was treating Verstappen like he had a bomb in his car, he left miles of space. If he were a little more aggressive he could have overtaken Verstappen and Kimi earlier in the race. He backed out of anything but a 'breeze past' move because he knew it wasn't worth it.

I think Austin is one of the better tracks for overtaking, the fact that the top 3 cars were able to actually go wheel to wheel with each other speaks volumes IMO, that rarely happens unless one has a significant tyre advantage.


Hamilton wasn't get past Kimi on track, Ferrari engine was too powerful and Mercedes confirmed this themselves.

The only move I saw was Hamilton on Verstappen and this only happened due to a mistake, the reason the cars managed to go wheel to wheel was due to strategy really, Hamilton being on fresher tyres and attacking. That's what I would like to see more off but who would know Austin would end up being a track position is key race.

Hamilton was very hesitant with Kimi, he could have made a move stick into T1 a few times. Did Verstappen make a mistake? I thought he simply fell slightly outside of DRS range of Kimi.

Also we saw Vettel overtake Bottas on near identical strategies, a Ferrari overtaking a Merc or vice versa is very rare.

Track position is always important in F1, but Austin is a good track for overtaking and the race on Sunday showed that IMO. I don't think I'd want it to be any easier than it was then.


Bottas took the inside line against Vettel and then went off track, wasnt really an overtake but more a mistake. Verstappen went wide and lacked drive out the corner, that's what allowed Hamilton a run. Its kind of the point I was making though as it takes mistakes, weather, big tyre deltas or even luckier different tyre compounds to make something happen between the big 2 teams. I just hate the fact it needs to be like that but it's been a problem for ages now. Everyone would like to be able to see the top cars race without dirty air effecting the car behind even at 5 seconds and there no need for DRS, half the tracks need to looked at aswell IMO but I'm rather negative fullstop when it comes to racing at the front. I hope next year brings some improvement.

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 Post subject: Re: No-passing F1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:03 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Its kind of the point I was making though as it takes mistakes, weather, big tyre deltas or even luckier different tyre compounds to make something happen between the big 2 teams. I just hate the fact it needs to be like that but it's been a problem for ages now. Everyone would like to be able to see the top cars race without dirty air effecting the car behind even at 5 seconds and there no need for DRS, half the tracks need to looked at aswell IMO but I'm rather negative fullstop when it comes to racing at the front. I hope next year brings some improvement.


Agreed. I think it's false logic to look at the tracks though. The cars cornering faster and faster due to ever higher downforce is what makes the tracks harder to overtake on. Take Spa, where Eau Rouge and Pouhon are now taken flat - so no chance to overtake. Also at Suzuka, where 130R is no longer a corner. If this continues the tracks will become more and more like endless straights. Surely it's more sensible to slow the cars' cornering rather than to modify tracks. Not least as the track owners have no money to do it.


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