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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Only worry is will the now speedy & reliable Honda behave the same way inside a tightly packaged Red Bull? Could we see similar issues which Honda faced when with McLaren?

If not, I see Verstappen fighting for wins in 2019!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's fair to say that Honda have moved on from 2017.


You would've said the same thing in 2016 about 2015.

No I think they have moved on on, more forward steps then backward steps, I see them surpassing Renault next year.


Again, exact same thing could've been said in 2016.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:49 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Only worry is will the now speedy & reliable Honda behave the same way inside a tightly packaged Red Bull? Could we see similar issues which Honda faced when with McLaren?

If not, I see Verstappen fighting for wins in 2019!

I see Red Bull being that much closer so wins may be possible but reliability will let them down at times.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's fair to say that Honda have moved on from 2017.


You would've said the same thing in 2016 about 2015.

No I think they have moved on on, more forward steps then backward steps, I see them surpassing Renault next year.


Again, exact same thing could've been said in 2016.

Lessons learned, you seem to have little faith in Honda?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think it's fair to say that Honda have moved on from 2017.


You would've said the same thing in 2016 about 2015.

No I think they have moved on on, more forward steps then backward steps, I see them surpassing Renault next year.


Again, exact same thing could've been said in 2016.

Lessons learned, you seem to have little faith in Honda?


I see no reason to write off what happened just two years ago as irrelevant. I don't know what will happen next season.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 pm 
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So in summary Honda are 20 bhp up on Renault at the moment and Renault are keeping the the best bits of their current PU and are freeing themselves of its restraints to start again in 2019.

How will both these units compare with Mercedes and Ferrari next year then? My reading is that they will all be closer with Renault being the darkest horse. Unless of course Mercedes have a trick up their sleeve!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
So in summary Honda are 20 bhp up on Renault at the moment and Renault are keeping the the best bits of their current PU and are freeing themselves of its restraints to start again in 2019.

How will both these units compare with Mercedes and Ferrari next year then? My reading is that they will all be closer with Renault being the darkest horse. Unless of course Mercedes have a trick up their sleeve!

They'll inevitably all converge on the same level of performance as Mercedes and Ferrari pursue ever-diminishing gains. And then the rules will change and we'll have a big reset and then go through the same cycle again.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 pm 
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froze wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
froze wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
According to this Honda were 15bhp down but now are 20bhp up on Renault.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-to-surpass-renault-power-in-russia/

If that is true then it looks really bad for Mclaren and calls to question Alonso's "Now we can fight" comments at Melbourne, as they seem to have in fact gone from bad to worse. If this trend continues next year then it means Red Bull have made a potential masterstroke and on Mclaren more heads will roll.


I think RBR has nothing to loose with Honda. Probably they will take more penalties than others but on Friday, Saturday to avoid any risk for the race. MV cleared midfield so easily in Russia and Ricciardo as well in Suzuka is pretty disappointing. Hopefully midfield teams and especially Renault will make it hard for them if not finish ahead. Right now they are just moving chicane :uhoh:

That's true unless Renault are able to narrow the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari engines with their "completely new engine". When Mclaren switched from Mercedes power to Honda, I think the argument was that they were not able to beat the Mercedes factory team with the same engine. Red Bull on the other hand have been always beating the Renault factory team with the same engine, so all that should be left is for Renault engine to produce more horsepower to get on par with Mercedes and Ferrari. Let's not forget that Red Bull have already been able to challenge the top two teams in some races even with the inferior PU.

That being said, it remains to be seen whether Honda will be able to beat Renault in the long run, so Red Bull's decision to go with Honda is like flipping a coin with some additional benefits coming from gaining a de facto factory team status. So I don't think the switch to Honda is automatically a masterstroke. It could be, but it could also fail. To me it seems like 50/50 at this point.


Yes we will know next year. Renault had a great race with both driver on points. They did not get lapped today but were 86secs behind RBR. RBR at the worst will be 3rd best team next year. The gap is just too big. RBR also said they decided to go with Honda because they have more budget/resources compared to Renault so there is more potential after comparing spec2 engine of both Honda and Renault in Canadian GP.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:21 pm 
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j man wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
So in summary Honda are 20 bhp up on Renault at the moment and Renault are keeping the the best bits of their current PU and are freeing themselves of its restraints to start again in 2019.

How will both these units compare with Mercedes and Ferrari next year then? My reading is that they will all be closer with Renault being the darkest horse. Unless of course Mercedes have a trick up their sleeve!

They'll inevitably all converge on the same level of performance as Mercedes and Ferrari pursue ever-diminishing gains. And then the rules will change and we'll have a big reset and then go through the same cycle again.

They're not having a reset now.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:15 am 
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The issue is the reduction in aero - which surely effects rbr more than any other Greek as it’s towering strength - so reduce the cornering advantage and gains Aren’t as quantifiable


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:10 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
The issue is the reduction in aero - which surely effects rbr more than any other Greek as it’s towering strength - so reduce the cornering advantage and gains Aren’t as quantifiable

I'd forgotten about that, apparently the new front wing regs may not suit the high rake designs, hence why Mercedes are happy with the rule change whilst Horner was apparently very angry with the rule change.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Is the Toro Rosso chassis that bad that with a better engine (sorry... PU) than Renault (that have an average chassis to say the least) they can hardly score points ?
We'll see next year, but apart from Marko's wishful thinking, Honda having already surpassed Renault has still to be proven.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:28 am 
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mmmm - how does team turn to creek? 8O


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:53 am 
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Harpo wrote:
Is the Toro Rosso chassis that bad that with a better engine (sorry... PU) than Renault (that have an average chassis to say the least) they can hardly score points ?
We'll see next year, but apart from Marko's wishful thinking, Honda having already surpassed Renault has still to be proven.


If that's the case Macca must be ecstatic they've signed James Keys.

Next year's a genuine stab in the dark at best. New aero regs + a brand new Renault PU.

No-one knows what the outcome will be.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:31 pm 
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After 2nd practice in Mexico Renault PU's are First, Second and Third is it a fluke or are they not as bad as we thought? Sure Ferrari and Mercedes should dial in the right numbers tomorrow but TR are 6th and 14th.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:54 am 
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Well if the Honda motor of Toro Rosso had anything for the Renault of Red Bull or Renault teams it didn't show very much today. Will have to see tomorrow in Quali when the teams get serious.

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